oh i fully agree as well, i meant along the lines that i wish the market could handle this with the addition of 20-25 story structures near erieview.  to sort-of compete with the whole gold coast stuff

One of things i really like about the project is that, when you consider Reserve Square in the context of The Avenue District, it becomes a coherent neighborhood.  Doug Price's significant investiment into that building, including one heck of an upgrade to that scare basement grocery store, really helps turn E. 12th Street and the adjoining streets into a real continuous living neighborhood, w/ rental housing (Rrsv. Sq., Chesterfield), for sale housing (Zaremba), a park (perk plaza), grocery and other services (CVS), church (St. Johns), plus more opportinity for retail to spring up on the first floors of the Zaremba Bldgs and Reserve Square, (and don't forget the galleria and Erieview Tower that is 80% leased up).. all joined together.  It's kinda of an organic approach to lifestyle centers.  This could be Cleveland's version of Chicago's Lincoln Park (of course Cleveland's Lincoln Park is pretty kickin' too...)  But i digress...

K & D is also converting at least one floor of reserve square into condos. Having affordable condos on east 12th will definitely help solidify that neighborhood.

anyone heard if they've secured any retailers yet?  I'm guessing they'd have a better shot getting local retailers to take a chance on them than convincing a national group.

Still no action at Perk Plaza... any hope that it could be re-dedicated to coincide with the completion of the first phase of the Avenue District? Or sooner? I can't help but imagine what sort of boost it would be to the developing District. I've got to admit selfish motives, too - I'm looking forward to having my lunch in a much less oppressive space come warmer weather.

 

B

I cant wait to see this project take off, I have beeen by the site and have seen little progress, but when this baby is complete hopefully the night life in downtwont will pick up.

Does anyone believe that luxury stores like Luis Vuton, Versace, Barney's, and Armani will sign leases in the Avenue district or at the Galleria when the affluent buyers in this project start to move in?

Wow, getting a little ahead of ourselves, are we?  I wouldn't be dropping those names for quite some time.  They'd be here and gone in a few short months, ala Tower City!  I think that somewhere down the line, when this project (and others) are built out, we'll see more high-end shopping Downtown, but in the short-term, I'm thinking more coffee shop, bakery/deli, realtor, art gallery-type tenants.  Then again, I don't know what size the spaces will be or who they're targeting, but I would think they'd be going for neighborhood retail over national retail for phase 1.

^adding on:

 

1) lets concentrate on making all the basic services are covered first, then let the smaller niche retailers come.

 

2) Furthermore with two already established high-end malls (arguably three with eton) anchoring the west and east ends of cleveland (cracker park and beachwood), if the ultra high end of retail were to appear in cleveland, it most likely go to one of those malls. Until then, i'll be doing my shopping at Somerset Collection.

Does anyone believe that luxury stores like Luis Vuton, Versace, Barney's, and Armani will sign leases in the Avenue district or at the Galleria when the affluent buyers in this project start to move in?

 

Maybe Bar'nay's, Lou Vitin, Ver'say'sha, and Armenia.

^Funny :-D

 

I meant after the 'hood is finished/established as an affluent area. I guess I mainly meant would those stores ever come to the Galleria and leave the spaces being constructed under the residential to more practical uses (grocery store, pharmacyetc.)

MAYBE Armani Exchange?  The others I see going to Beachwood before anything else.

^ yeah you're probobly right, just trying to see if anyone else thought there was a possibility.

They might come to Beachwood or that new upscale shopping center being built in Chagrin Higlands.

I hadn't heard about that project at Chagrin Highlands...what are the details?  It's about time some more activity happened around there.

Right now there is the completed Marriott and Chipotle, but the bulk of the center is currently getting its foundation built and a few more restaurants are under construction you can find more info at this link

 

http://www.chagrinhighlands.com/components/retail.html

 

click the map link on the right side to see where everything is situated.

I am really excited about the Avenue District, but I think I'd prefer to see more flagship  retail development closer to Public Square in Tower City, Warehouse District and Euclid Avenue. I am pretty young, but I remember the Galleria as a child, and it was my family's Christmas shopping mall of choice, but Tower City makes more sense for a downtown shopping mall. I'd really like to see the Galleria and Erieview Tower become World Trade Center Cleveland (there was once a WTC Cleveland complex proposed for the lakefront).  For both Flats East Bank and Avenue District (the two downtown "bracket" residential neighborhoods) it would be great if they focused more on neighborhood retail and didn't choose major chains. Maybe some of the area galleries, boutiques, and restaurant owners in Ohio City, Tremont, Little Italy, and Shaker Square could be persuaded to consider openning up another location with a slightly different concept here in the Avenue District.

Howdy Vulpster, welcome!

Wow, getting a little ahead of ourselves, are we?  I wouldn't be dropping those names for quite some time.  They'd be here and gone in a few short months, ala Tower City!  I think that somewhere down the line, when this project (and others) are built out, we'll see more high-end shopping Downtown, but in the short-term, I'm thinking more coffee shop, bakery/deli, realtor, art gallery-type tenants.  Then again, I don't know what size the spaces will be or who they're targeting, but I would think they'd be going for neighborhood retail over national retail for phase 1.

 

I think you're wrong.  Those stores were NOT doing bad business, it was a combination of the management at the corporate level at some stores and TC/FC lack of being a mall operator that did many of those stores in.

 

In addtion, at the time, Cleveland downtown didn't have the residents it has today or the collaborative focus on improving the city it has today.

 

Barney's was actually going to expand the Cleveland store, when the parent company had financial troubles, which is why all the Barney's stores closed exect, mad/BH/CHI/SEA.

 

The LV store was a "franchise" and the owner made some bad busines deals, and screwed many of the employees.  Many didn't get paid the last month.

 

Gucci was going threw a transformation from the "old" to the "new-Tom Ford" design direction but ive always felt out store was way to big.  Many Gucci boutiques closed because of the switch and over expansion.

 

Having basid necessities, peppered with stores new to NEO would then Challenge Beachwood, which is, a shoppers paradise in Ohio.

 

We need a major department store downtown as an anchor with a better selection of "retail"on Euclid Avenue.  Rename the street "millionaires row" and market it as a shoppers dream. come up with a ton of creative marketing.

I agree that Downtown should be able to support these stores, but I also agree that the Downtown residential population needs to grow first.  And we're not going to grow it by simply luring high end, magnet retailers.  It's going to take amenity/neighborhood retail to get people Downtown for 24-hours per day and then the other retail makes much more sense. 

 

On the other hand, with the number of visitors to Downtown every day and night, I would think that we could be supporting more magnet retailers as it is, but apparently they're discouraged by something.  Maybe it is the ownership and the marketing and not the buying market.  I'd like to think so. 

 

But back to the Avenue District, I do think that what they're going for is neighborhood retail first.  The Galleria could definitely host more big-time retail in the near future, though, that serves these new residents and Downtown workers and visitors alike.

 

 

We need a major department store downtown as an anchor with a better selection of "retail"on Euclid Avenue.  Rename the street "millionaires row" and market it as a shoppers dream. come up with a ton of creative marketing.

 

I've been thinking about that also. They should build on the "Rock and Roll Boulevard" motif they have going on 9th and bill Euclid and 9th streets as THE place to be between New York and Chicago. That would at least get people to want to live in the area as well as attract tourists.

^I don't see a large department store locating downtown anytime soon.  We would have to build a large population base before that could happen.  Also, I am not a fan of the R&R Blvd name.  E.9th is full of dull 70s office buildings that do anything but evoke an edgy/cool feeling. The R&R Blvd name only makes me feel like we are trying too hard to be something that we are not. 

 

On to Euclid: Let's let this place be itself.  I don't want any more flashy names that imitate another place.  Look at how many places use the SoHo naming style to brand a place.  I roll my eyes everytime that I hear city X using that strategy.  Why market Euclid as 'the coolest place between NY and Chicago'? Why not just call it Little NY? If developers come through with their plans, it will be a great place.  I agree that we need to market it, but lets not use references to other places in order to justify its merit.  NY never mentions anywhere else. Chicago doesnt either.  Downtown will be a great place if it looks at its strengths and tries to be itself.

 

The Belgium planners had a real point with the river.  If we had dense neighborhoods lining the streets that lead down to the river, it would be very cool. Instead we keep on saying how we want a lakefront that is like Chicago's.  I am all for improving the lakefront, but I would rather have the coolest and most unique Flats area than have a lakefront that is trying to be like Chicago.

 

 

^I agree that the river is where it's at.  I'd just as soon create a green lakefront for folks to use when it's nice out, and build up the core of downtown and the flats with dense residential.  The lakefront just doesn't offer the same types of connections for a neighborhood, it's too isolated.  The river valley, on the other hand, can pull downtown and the near westside together, as well as linking the city with its southern neighbors.

I didn't mean literally billing it as "The coolest place between New York and Chicago." I meant make it a large attraction so it really does become a cool place that happens to be between those two cities. But I think making the East 9th and Euclid as the place to people watch, shop and hang out would be great because it would link things like The R&R Hall of Fame, The Avenue District and  Galleria to Gateway and public square creating a somewhat connected neighborhood.

The Galleria could definitely host more big-time retail in the near future, though, that serves these new residents and Downtown workers and visitors alike.

 

It occurs to me that I wouldn't mind seeing the Galleria go dark. Get all those stores out of the mall and onto the street, where they belong. We can start with the Avenue retail spaces. And then find another use for the Galleria (easier said than done, I know).

Downtown Cleveland needs to face the fact that indoor malls are obsolete. Even the suburbs have realized that by now.

 

On the question of the Flats vs. the Lakefront, I think it boils down to something very simple. In the Flats, there's already a "there" there. There are buildings, boats, bridges, streets, history. (Incidentally, I'm not a huge fan of Wolstein's designs because he wipes out some of those ingredients.) On the Lakefront, however, we'd be trying to create something out of nothing. That's a huge feat to tackle, even for a prospering city like Chicago. For a distressed city like Cleveland to try it seems like a recipe for defeat.

I realy like the Millionaires Row idea for Euclid Avenue. As a clevelander I am not to attached to the name Euclid Avenue. Cleveland needs something fresh to revamp its image. I would love to see the cities along the laakes refer to thierselves as the water belt, to rid thier selves of the rust belt image. The city of Cleveland is not marketed to its full potential, and maybe its because of our low self esteem, who knows? I love Cleveland, but not every one shares the same love. We need to market ourselves better. cleveland is a World class city and we should let the world know that. :-D

"Downtown Cleveland needs to face the fact that indoor malls are obsolete."

 

I think they still have their place ;-)

The arcades are obviously a special circumstance, but the Galleria is really just a modern play on their old form.  Of the many differences and a glaring one is that the Galleria and Erieview Tower were built on what was and still is the edge of Downtown.  Erieview received criticism for this several decades ago when it was built because it was so heavily subsidized, yet undermined the existing structure and hierarchy of Downtown.  Galleria did something similar to that at a later date and this time, with retail, rather than office space.  Now, I'd love to be able to look back in twenty years and say that the Galleria sits at the hub of one of our Downtown's residential neighborhoods (a greatly expanded Avenue District), but as it is, it's still on the periphery.

 

I agree with B12 that we need to bring our street-level retail back, but I'm not opposed to having hubs like the Galleria and Tower City as well.  I understand your point, though, that at the current juncture, there's not enough to go 'round and we should concentrate on the sidewalk storefronts first...

I do think that as the Avenue District, Warehouse District, Gateway District or, in fact, any district Downtown continues to grow as its own piece of neighborhood, we'll find each to begin to blend into the other and Cleveland's historic Avenues (Euclid, Superior, Erie St.-err 9th, etc, etc) will once again become linkages through and between these areas. As a natural result, we won't have to speculate where the most exclusive shopping, dining and entertainment will re-bloom, they will and should be on Euclid, as one example. And in fact even the Galleria would have its place as an indoor avenue of sorts (like the Arcades of old) in a much further built-up Avenue neighborhood.

 

On another thought... why not E. 9th become Erie St., West 9th become Water Street, and many of the Downtown north-south arteries' names reborn. I think the names have some strong history of their own and would have an identifiable presence in the neighborhoods that once existed and those neighborhoods we envision (where neighborhoods once were).

 

So maybe Erie St., for example, gives a point of orientation for "Erieview", or the "Erie St. Bookstore", and following Erie St. far enough north will land you onto the "Erie St. Pier" and into the Great Lake.

 

I think you can be forward thinking by choosing not to disregard a rich history, as Erieview Plan and Urban Renewal of the 60's aimed to forget.

 

Off my soapbox for now...

Looking back, I find the Galleria to be interesting.  How would they build a downtown shopping mall without any sort of department store anchor? 

 

I remember when it first opened.  Its was absolutely packed at Christmas time. 

 

On another note: remember when they had considered building the new convention center on the Avenue site? It was supposed to connect to the Galleria.  Thank god that didn't happen.

Bertram,

 

Welcome to the board!  I like the idea of returning some of the old streets to their original names.  Water St. and Erie St. are pretty cool. We have so many numbered streets that they lose their luster.  I would also go for a Johnson St. Sure, its a generic name. But he was a great mayor. 

Looking back, I find the Galleria to be interesting.  How would they build a downtown shopping mall without any sort of department store anchor? 

 

I remember when it first opened.  Its was absolutely packed at Christmas time. 

 

On another note: remember when they had considered building the new convention center on the Avenue site? It was supposed to connect to the Galleria.  Thank god that didn't happen.

 

Not just at christmas.  It was packed all the time.  I remember going to the grand opening party.  we had one of the original banana republics "safari motiff" !

Looking back, I find the Galleria to be interesting.  How would they build a downtown shopping mall without any sort of department store anchor? 

 

Well, I know they were looking.  That is why Jacob's owned all the parking lots, they were there for expansion, with an anchor store.  I think when Tower City was going in, it killed the momentum.

 

Oh, well in the long run this is much better than an empty dillards

 

I know this is a continued digression from the topic, but it's a direct response to the street name issue from today's PD...how about that?

 

What's in street name?

Tuesday, February 28, 2006

Michael O'Malley

Plain Dealer Reporter

 

When Cleveland City Councilman Joe Cimperman recently proposed changing the name of East 55th Street back to what it was 100 years ago -- Willson Avenue -- some at City Hall hit the roof.

 

more at http://www.cleveland.com/cuyahoga/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/1141119077121440.xml&coll=2

^That's pretty funny.

Keep the streets numbered.  It makes it so easy to navigate Cleveland.  The numbered streets being in unison with the addresses makes it nearly impossible to get lost here.  A street name dosent mean anything when looking for something, but 5542 Euclid does (ex).  (Just east of 55th on Euclid).

^Sorry to digress from the subject.

I'm not in favor of changing street names. I really like the numbered streets. Cleveland is so well layed out and easy to get around. Chicago is difficult because there are no numbered streets downtown. Cincinnati is an absolute nightmare to navigate (with its streets changing names every couple blocks, and all of its hills, nonconnecting roads, curving hill streets). You can learn your way around Cleveland very easily. Even if you haven't been somewhere in the city it is very easy to find places. If someone tells me St. Clair and E.55th, or Detroit and W.65th I would know exactly where that is even if I have never been there. I really love it. And I think the numbered streets and layout are appropriate to its big city status.

 

I would like to see the old street names become names for districts and developments. Maybe E.9th-E.13th could be renamed as a city district and indicated on downtown district maps as Erieview. It would be nice to designate a name for this entire emerging  downtown neighborhood the way the Warehouse District and Gateway all have names and boundaries. "Erieview" would draw on the historical Erie St. connection, Erieview tower, and the Lake. The Avenue District is okay for this development, but E.12th St. isn't an avenue, and I hope this neighborhood neighborhood that is encompassing more than the Avenue District development, won't become known as the "Avenue District".

I think the Avenue District area should be called Perk Park.  I hate when developers sell their developements with names like this.  It makes it sound like some suburban strip mall or subdivision.  Just like District Park etc.  Just call it a new residential area in Perk Park.

I don't think that anyone was suggesting that we change the numbered streets.  Cimperman's idea was to change E.55th, not all of them.

Regarding The Avenue District name...it's nameds that because all avenues in Cleveland lead to The Avenue District.  I think StrangeBrew commented on this some time back.

^Still though, the neighborhood really runs north-south, and the "avenues" intersecting it run east-west.  I think I may have posted on this before too.  I think Perk Park, or even Erieview is a much better name for the neighborhood being created Between Euclid and Lakeside along East 12th.  Maybe it's not too late, the project doesn't have to define the neighborhood, in fact, Reserve Square is much larger.

Maybe in the finest suburban tradition they can name it after what it replaces:  The Lofts at Surface Lot Square

While a digression regarding the street names, I'd find much more appealing the idea of "Erie St." attached to the Ninth St. name instead of "Rock 'n' Roll Blvd" - I agree that the numbered grid makes for easy navigation. I like the logic to streets and addresses throughout Cleveland.

 

An "Erie St." name attached to Ninth would further reinforce an "Erieview District" name - not the Zaremba development name.

 

"Erieview District" gets my vote.

How about Jacobs' Folly?  :)

 

I am not a fan of the Erieview name.  It has its roots in the urban renewal and poor architecture eras of this city.

 

 

Anyone remember what E. 12th STreet's original name was?  I Think it was Muirson Street or something.  How marketing unfriendly is that?  "I live at 1201 Muirson Street?"  Actually...that's not too bad ...

Regardless, I'm just excited that The Avenue District seems to be off to a great start.  I like the fact that Zaremba is doing things thoughtfully and with the citizens of Cleveland, and eventually The Avenue District in mind.

The project is featured in New Urban News:

 

http://theavenuedistrict.com/images/blogs/File/New_Urban_News.pdf

 

Flats East Bank is also discussed in a portion of the article not posted online.

It said on that post by Zaremba that New Urban News is an international publication... I've never heard of it.  If that's true, that's pretty cool that Cleveland development got coverage in an international magazine.

We subscribe to the New Urban News at my place of employment.  It seems fairly reputable.  I just read the article. It also talks about Stark's plan for the WHD and the lakefront.

 

As mentioned, the article talks about the East Bank.  Has anyone else heard that Wolstein wants to make the entire thing LEED-certified?  Actually, it is called LEED-ND (neighborhood development). I'll reread the article, but it sure seemed like Wolstein wants to make this an example for how to properly do new urbanism. 

There's really no reason not to.  The amount of money invested up front in a big project like this will pay many more dividends down the road when considering "green" design elements.  Sales prices can go up and long-term viability can be maintained. 

 

Both of these projects (Avenue & Flats) should be pursuing at least the minimum LEED certification. It's time to set an example for the rest of Cleveland to follow.  Eventually (sooner than later!), I'd like to see LEED standards mandated in Ohio, Cuyahoga County and Cleveland...mandates that should be backed with public support and incentives.