8 hours ago, Sapper Daddy said:

@KJP Do you get the sense that projects which are close to shovel ready, such as City Club Apartments or Circle Square in Cleveland, might now be delayed while they seek these incentives?

 

No, especially since they are lining up contractors right now to build these developments. City Club should be pretty close to having all of its contractors in place (materials may be another matter). There are later phases of Circle Square that could certainly seek TMUD credits, however.

Another disturbing thing about all these fraudulent PUA claims is that they cast in doubt the accuracy of the the last six months' unemployment data. With all that pandemic assistance money on the table, of course there was goin to be some fraud, but the actual number would appear colossal and had to affect BLS labor estimations.

 

https://www.cleveland.com/open/2021/01/more-than-half-of-ohios-pandemic-unemployment-assistance-claims-have-been-flagged-for-fraud.html

"Flagged for fraud" /= "fraud"

1 hour ago, X said:

"Flagged for fraud" /= "fraud"

The Columbus Dispatch has been reporting on this since last August; so it's not the shocking news that cleveland.com is pretending.  True, "flagged for fraud" won't convict anybody; but it will affect BLS estimates.

 

lol who could have seen this coming

 

On 1/24/2021 at 11:50 AM, X said:

"Flagged for fraud" /= "fraud"

 

Well, what do I get for questioning the veracity of claims of widespread unemployment fraud?  A letter from Jobs and Family Services with my PIN for my new unemployment compensation account that I never applied for!  What a PITA!

On 2/18/2021 at 6:37 PM, X said:

 

Well, what do I get for questioning the veracity of claims of widespread unemployment fraud?  A letter from Jobs and Family Services with my PIN for my new unemployment compensation account that I never applied for!  What a PITA!

Hey, look at the bright side. That's better than getting a 1099 after no taxes were taken out of the claim! If you're going to steal my identity, all I ask is that you at least pay taxes on the claim. At least give me that courtesy. Good luck getting ahold of the IRS! Yeah, unemployment fraud is insane right now. I can't imagine working for the Unemployment Dept. or IRS during a pandemic. I read that Ohio unemployment fraud has costed us over $300M since the pandemic.  It's probably a lot higher now. Speaking of IRS, I checked the website yesterday and they still haven't even processed my tax return from 2019. Unbelievable. This pandemic has really exposed a lot of government failures on many levels.

Edited February 20, 20214 yr by David

 

Perfect! Ohio has some great "Zoom Towns"!

 

 

 

Shouldn't we also put our rainy day percentage up there too? For transparency.

 

23 minutes ago, DarkandStormy said:

 

Are tax dollars funding this?  This marketing campaign is being done by JobsOhio.  It's a private, nonprofit corporation.

Edited April 16, 20214 yr by TH3BUDDHA

27 minutes ago, DarkandStormy said:

 

Would love to see an accountability study of this!  How much was spent, vs how many businesses relocated from LA to Ohio.   I'm guessing the number would start with .00

Ohio should focus on additional funding for historic preservation tax credits. You want to talk about an effective program that results in direct, visible on the ground economic growth in Ohio, that’s the one. 

Edited April 16, 20214 yr by thebillshark

47 minutes ago, TH3BUDDHA said:

Are tax dollars funding this?  This marketing campaign is being done by JobsOhio.  It's a private, nonprofit corporation.

 

I can see why the tweeter in question is confused.  When the ads use the word "our," it implies it is coming from the state, which is in big letters at the bottom left of the ad.  There is also nowhere stating the ad has been placed by a nonprofit unless you go to the website, and even then it's a bit unclear.

Edited April 16, 20214 yr by DarkandStormy

On 4/16/2021 at 11:13 AM, DarkandStormy said:

 

I can see why the tweeter in question is confused.  When the ads use the word "our," it implies it is coming from the state, which is in big letters at the bottom left of the ad.  There is also nowhere stating the ad has been placed by a nonprofit unless you go to the website, and even then it's a bit unclear.

To be fair, the quasi-governmental status of JobsOhio has always been unclear. The operating funds come from state run liquor profits. Do you consider that “tax dollars”? The state auditor thought so.

 

I ask hypothetically but truly it’s a strange arrangement (thx Kasich).

Somewhere on this site someone posted a billboard in NYC that said, move your business to Ohio---we have no state corporate tax. And that is true---44/50 states do--and Ohio is not one of them. But I just came across this:

 

State Corporate Income Tax Rates and Brackets for 2021

 

"Forty-four states levy a corporate income tax. Rates range from 2.5 percent in North Carolina to 11.5 percent in New Jersey.....Nevada, Ohio, Texas, and Washington forgo corporate income taxes but instead impose gross receipts taxes on businesses, which are generally thought to be more economically harmful due to tax pyramiding and nontransparency..."

 

(https://taxfoundation.org/publications/state-corporate-income-tax-rates-and-brackets)

 

So do we still tax businesses, but just don't call it a corporate tax? Are we trying to dupe businesses, which after they do their homework, will find out the truth? I'm not familiar with the practice of "gross receipts taxes"--but it sounds like it doesn't account for expenses like employees, materials, and mortgages....

 

 

42 minutes ago, Pugu said:

Somewhere on this site someone posted a billboard in NYC that said, move your business to Ohio---we have no state corporate tax. And that is true---44/50 states do--and Ohio is not one of them. But I just came across this:

 

State Corporate Income Tax Rates and Brackets for 2021

 

"Forty-four states levy a corporate income tax. Rates range from 2.5 percent in North Carolina to 11.5 percent in New Jersey.....Nevada, Ohio, Texas, and Washington forgo corporate income taxes but instead impose gross receipts taxes on businesses, which are generally thought to be more economically harmful due to tax pyramiding and nontransparency..."

 

(https://taxfoundation.org/publications/state-corporate-income-tax-rates-and-brackets)

 

So do we still tax businesses, but just don't call it a corporate tax? Are we trying to dupe businesses, which after they do their homework, will find out the truth? I'm not familiar with the practice of "gross receipts taxes"--but it sounds like it doesn't account for expenses like employees, materials, and mortgages....

 

 

 

It does sound like a scam of sorts.

59 minutes ago, Pugu said:

Somewhere on this site someone posted a billboard in NYC that said, move your business to Ohio---we have no state corporate tax. And that is true---44/50 states do--and Ohio is not one of them. But I just came across this:

 

State Corporate Income Tax Rates and Brackets for 2021

 

"Forty-four states levy a corporate income tax. Rates range from 2.5 percent in North Carolina to 11.5 percent in New Jersey.....Nevada, Ohio, Texas, and Washington forgo corporate income taxes but instead impose gross receipts taxes on businesses, which are generally thought to be more economically harmful due to tax pyramiding and nontransparency..."

 

(https://taxfoundation.org/publications/state-corporate-income-tax-rates-and-brackets)

 

So do we still tax businesses, but just don't call it a corporate tax? Are we trying to dupe businesses, which after they do their homework, will find out the truth? I'm not familiar with the practice of "gross receipts taxes"--but it sounds like it doesn't account for expenses like employees, materials, and mortgages....

 

 

 

Commercial Activity Tax -- last I checked, 0.6% of revenue on business with more that 200k in sales yearly. I'm in a bit of a hurry though so don't have details.

Yeah it does seem like a scam of certain sorts. I ran some numbers based on the above post. If a company has a bad year they pay an incredibly high tax rate (higher than any other state). If they have a good year, they pay very little:

 

Bad Year:

 

Revenue       200,000

Expenses       195,000

Profit    5,000

Profit Margin    3%

OH Rate    0.6%

Taxes Paid     1,200

REAL tax rate    24.0%

 

Okay Year:

 

Revenue       200,000

Expenses       180,000

Profit20,000

Profit Margin   10%

OH Rate    0.6%

Taxes Paid    1,200

REAL tax rate    6.0%

 

Good Year:

 

Revenue       200,000

Expenses       160,000

Profit    40,000

Profit Margin     20%

OH Rate     0.6%

Taxes Paid     1,200

REAL tax rate    3.0%

Here are the tables. It .26 percent rather than 0.6% But it is still "flat" and therefore somewhat regressive. If you are under $1M in receipts it is only $150. Also flat and somewhat regressive.

 

For calendar years 2006 and thereafter, the first $1 million in taxable gross receipts are taxed at $150. Receipts above $1 million are taxed at the following rates:

 

Tax Period

 

Base Tax Rate

Phase-in

Percentage

Effective Rate*

July 1, 2005 to December 31, 2005

0.06%  

N/A

0.0600%

January 1, 2006 to March 31, 2006

0.26%

23%

0.0598%

April 1, 2006 to March 31, 2007  

0.26%

40%

0.1040%

April 1, 2007 to March 31, 2008  

0.26%

60%

0.1560%

April 1, 2008 to March 31, 2009  

0.26%

80%

0.2080%

After March 31, 2009  

0.26%

100%

0.2600%

 

https://tax.ohio.gov/wps/portal/gov/tax/help-center/faqs/commercial-activity-tax-cat/commercial-activity-tax

 

So not super scammy but a minimum tax just for existing is still kinda lame. Businesses hate stuff that comes along and says "You're a business! You exist! Therefore you have to give me money or you're out of business!"

The CAT tax was considered by the state as a response for its elimination of state corporate tax and state inventory tax.

 

Creative approach anyway. 

4 hours ago, DarkandStormy said:

 

Why do people keep bashing this and dumping on Ohio?  We were the #1 state for corporate investment per capita last year:

 

 https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/articles/2021-03-01/texas-ohio-top-rankings-for-business-friendly-states-per-new-report.

 

Anybody on this forum is well aware that there are things going on all around the state.  And much to this forum's displeasure, we are well aware that companies love saving money by building a smaller building on cheap land.  Am I missing something?  It seems to be working.

Edited June 21, 20213 yr by TH3BUDDHA

3 minutes ago, TH3BUDDHA said:

Why do people keep bashing this and dumping on Ohio?  We were the #1 state for corporate investment per capita last year:

 

If you keep chasing away residents with flyover-country policies,  it's easier to win the "per capita" game.  

1 minute ago, Cleburger said:

 

If you keep chasing away residents with flyover-country policies,  it's easier to win the "per capita" game.  

But, we come in second place behind Texas for raw number of projects.

4 hours ago, DarkandStormy said:

 

 

Wow. Too bad Macy's closed their Downtown Cincinnati office and made NYC their sole corporate headquarters. If only they would have realized that Ohio office space is cheaper!

Cut your way to prosperity 

6 hours ago, DarkandStormy said:

 

Good God thad ad is embarrassing. How would anyone think that this effective? It certainly doesn't make anyone want to move from NYC to farm country with squat buildings. That ad just reinforces stereotypes of Ohio---farmland, rural, RED/backwards/conservative (Ohio is even shown in red in the picture), and not so business savvy.....

 

 

2 hours ago, TH3BUDDHA said:

Why do people keep bashing this and dumping on Ohio?  We were the #1 state for corporate investment per capita last year:

 

 https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/articles/2021-03-01/texas-ohio-top-rankings-for-business-friendly-states-per-new-report.

 

Anybody on this forum is well aware that there are things going on all around the state.  And much to this forum's displeasure, we are well aware that companies love saving money by building a smaller building on cheap land.  Am I missing something?  It seems to be working.

Well maybe not that particular ad but something. Interesting article, thanks for posting.

21 hours ago, TH3BUDDHA said:

Why do people keep bashing this and dumping on Ohio?

 

I thought the tweet I posted summarized it pretty succinctly.  The marketing campaign by OhioJobs is hilariously bad and likely has no impact on the link you posted.

34 minutes ago, DarkandStormy said:

 

I thought the tweet I posted summarized it pretty succinctly.  The marketing campaign by OhioJobs is hilariously bad and likely has no impact on the link you posted.

The tweet, and many forumers in this thread, miss the point entirely.  The ad isn't about attracting New Yorkers to Ohio.  It's about attracting New York businesses to Ohio.   People follow jobs.  It's the primary reason people move.  And, companies are always interested in hearing how they can cut costs.  This campaign also includes ads pointing out tax breaks and nearly every company that moves jobs to the Columbus area, and there are many doing so, mentions the business friendly environment of Ohio in their statement. Something is currently working, whether it be the work put in by JobsOhio(which is doing tons of successful work around the state besides this ad campaign) or something else.  As I pointed out, we do not lack for corporate projects around the state right now.

Companies with well paid white collar workers increasingly want to be located in areas with more cultural amenities, not simply the lowest tax location or most "business friendly" location possible. Companies like Pure Romance and Tire Discounters relocated their headquarters from the 'burbs to Downtown Cincinnati, where the tax burden is certainly higher (ignoring any initial tax abatements/incentives these companies may have received). I think the efforts by groups like the Cincinnati Chamber of Commerce (and there are probably similar efforts in other cities) that show off what Cincinnati has to offer are way more effective than ads that simply say "look how cheap we are!"

9 minutes ago, taestell said:

not simply the lowest tax location or most "business friendly"

Every single relocation of an HQ or creation of a new HQ2 involves negotiations around tax breaks and other incentives.  If a location doesn't have business friendly policies in place, they better be willing to provide incentives outside of those policies.  You even mention this in your comment:

 

20 minutes ago, taestell said:

ignoring any initial tax abatements/incentives these companies may have received

 

You can't ignore this, though as it's quite likely those companies wouldn't have made the decision without those negotiations.  I think we can take a look at migration data over the past decade to counter the "companies move for cultural amenities argument."  Nobody can deny that companies have been moving from California to places like Texas for quite some time.  Tech companies are moving in droves.  California has arguably the best amenities and weather in the country.  The only logical explanations for relocation is business environment and this is brought up time and time again.  The vast majority of people move for jobs.  Convince the companies to come and people will follow.

Chipotle closed their Denver headquarters and opened a new headquarters in California which they believe will help “in the competition for top talent” and, as part of that process, relocated many of their back office functions (accounting, IT, human resources, etc.) to Columbus.

 

Macy's closed their downtown Cincinnati HQ and relocated the back office functions into their Springdale and Mason offices. The executives are now full based out of the New York HQ.

 

Amazon picked high-tax NYC and DC for their HQ jobs but gave Kentucky/Greater Cincinnati the warehouse jobs.

 

See a trend?

On 6/21/2021 at 12:48 PM, DarkandStormy said:

 

This is so embarrassing on so many levels. 

 

Of course my mind immediately goes to the gutter and sees the strong famous NYC landmark BBC and then there is Ohio-a pinkish little gherkin! lol.  Ohio, where office space is cheaper and we have little *****!

 

*Wait, it does say "Ohio is for leaders"...so yeah if they are talking about our leaders, then yeah the little ***** thing probably applies for most- and given they are little RED *****.

Edited June 22, 20213 yr by Toddguy

18 hours ago, TH3BUDDHA said:

The tweet, and many forumers in this thread, miss the point entirely.  The ad isn't about attracting New Yorkers to Ohio.  It's about attracting New York businesses to Ohio.   People follow jobs.  It's the primary reason people move.  And, companies are always interested in hearing how they can cut costs.  This campaign also includes ads pointing out tax breaks and nearly every company that moves jobs to the Columbus area, and there are many doing so, mentions the business friendly environment of Ohio in their statement. Something is currently working, whether it be the work put in by JobsOhio(which is doing tons of successful work around the state besides this ad campaign) or something else.  As I pointed out, we do not lack for corporate projects around the state right now.

 

This has been mentioned in this thread and throughout this site I believe...but do you really think New York businesses (or, rather, their owners/execs) are unaware of the tax rates or rental rates in other locales and are being educated by some billboards?  I haven't paid a ton of attention to the details, but do you have any NYC businesses that moved to Ohio and cited the lower taxes or lower rent (or the JobsOhio ad campaign) as the reason for moving here?

 

I'm not saying there aren't reasons businesses move to Ohio - but I am saying the way JobsOhio is trying to market Ohio to businesses in NYC, Chicago, California, etc. where these goofy billboards have popped up is hilarious and I don't buy for a second that they've had really any impact.  This is not to say that Ohio hasn't attracted businesses.  What I and basically everyone else here has done is separate that from the horrendous billboard ads by JobsOhio.

There's Chase, but it wasn't due to billboards and it was put in motion over 20 years ago. They didn't "move" per se but when they bought Bank One that was the impetus for expanding at Polaris.

 

The main line in economic development is "Urging businesses to relocate to or expand" within the agency's assigned area.

Edited June 23, 20213 yr by GCrites80s

When you compete on cost you'll only get jobs where cost is a deciding factor, like light industrial, warehousing, etc. At best, back office or call center jobs. People aren't moving to Ohio for that. And we'll continue to struggle to keep young people from fleeing to the coasts or the south. Our state policies aren't exactly conducive to drawing or retaining young people either...

1 hour ago, DarkandStormy said:

 

This has been mentioned in this thread and throughout this site I believe...but do you really think New York businesses (or, rather, their owners/execs) are unaware of the tax rates or rental rates in other locales and are being educated by some billboards?  I haven't paid a ton of attention to the details, but do you have any NYC businesses that moved to Ohio and cited the lower taxes or lower rent (or the JobsOhio ad campaign) as the reason for moving here?

These are all fair points, and obviously it isn't easy to draw a direct correlation between businesses moving here and incentives offered.  Anecdotally, the articles I've read on Columbus Business First usually are west coast tech companies moving offices here.  I know a big part of the most recent Apple offices that went to North Carolina had to do with incentives offered and leaked meeting notes actually mentioned Columbus as the main competition.  I would have to dig for these articles a bit, and I am at work currently.

 

1 hour ago, DarkandStormy said:

I'm not saying there aren't reasons businesses move to Ohio - but I am saying the way JobsOhio is trying to market Ohio to businesses in NYC, Chicago, California, etc. where these goofy billboards have popped up is hilarious and I don't buy for a second that they've had really any impact.  This is not to say that Ohio hasn't attracted businesses.  What I and basically everyone else here has done is separate that from the horrendous billboard ads by JobsOhio.

Sometimes, being ridiculous is the main point.  People are talking about it and the goal of marketing is to get attention.  If it wasn't for how stupid this ad is, that person would have never tweeted about it and it would have never been posted to this forum.  How many other billboards/signs do New Yorkers walk by everyday without giving a second thought to?   How many absolutely ridiculous ads do you see on TV where you ask yourself, "How could this possibly work as an advertisement?"  You just need to stand out in some way and be in peoples' minds.

Edited June 23, 20213 yr by TH3BUDDHA

5 minutes ago, Mendo said:

When you compete on cost you'll only get jobs where cost is a deciding factor, like light industrial, warehousing, etc. At best, back office or call center jobs. People aren't moving to Ohio for that. And we'll continue to struggle to keep young people from fleeing to the coasts or the south. Our state policies aren't exactly conducive to drawing or retaining young people either...

Anecdotally, I think all of these points are being disproven by the activity in Columbus right now.  I'm sure it's happening in other cities around Ohio right now, but I only see Columbus.

19 hours ago, taestell said:

Amazon picked high-tax NYC and DC for their HQ jobs but gave Kentucky/Greater Cincinnati the warehouse jobs.

 

See a trend?

Amazon actually picked relatively low-tax Virginia, not DC.  VA top bracket income tax is 5.5%; DC's is 8.95%; MD(Montgomery County) is 8.75%.

47 minutes ago, TH3BUDDHA said:

Anecdotally, I think all of these points are being disproven by the activity in Columbus right now.  I'm sure it's happening in other cities around Ohio right now, but I only see Columbus.

The problem Ohio has had since the 1970s is that too few people are moving to the state.  Young people in Ohio leave the state at about the same rate, or less, than other states.  Ohio definitely does NOT have a "brain drain" problem - the state probably should not try to hold back so many of its young people from seeking opportunity outside the state. After a couple decades, we're left with people in charge who have no experience outside Ohio, can't or refuse to adjust to national and global changes, and Ohio falls further and further behind. Even Columbus has mostly drawn from inside the state, save its comparatively robust international migration. International immigrants are attracted to places with strong growth - who wouldn't - so Ohio loses out. 

Edited June 23, 20213 yr by westerninterloper

First thing decision makers from those cities are going to ask when they visit Columbus, "Ok, where do we get on the train?"

54 minutes ago, Dougal said:

Amazon actually picked relatively low-tax Virginia, not DC.  VA top bracket income tax is 5.5%; DC's is 8.95%; MD(Montgomery County) is 8.75%.

 

My point is that they did not go with the proposal with the absolutely smallest tax burden. They are not building HQ2 in Kansas. They are putting those employees in a metro area (DC) that has the amenities that high paid white collar workers want. They may have chosen a lower tax area of the region, but it's still on the Metro line.

And they did a massive expansion in NYC at the same time.

29 minutes ago, taestell said:

They may have chosen a lower tax area of the region, but it's still on the Metro line.

That's my point, though.  I'm not saying these billboards are trying to make people move to Lima.  They lure the companies to the state with low taxes and then the company goes near one of the 3 C's where the amenities are.  These things aren't mutually exclusive.

27 minutes ago, TH3BUDDHA said:

That's my point, though.  I'm not saying these billboards are trying to make people move to Lima.  They lure the companies to the state with low taxes and then the company goes near one of the 3 C's where the amenities are.  These things aren't mutually exclusive.

 

Lure which companies? You mentioned Columbus earlier. Which companies moved there or opened substantial footprints in the area? I don't know the market there so I'm genuinely curious.

 

Again I mean other than warehouse or other light industrial uses. Those jobs are important but they aren't going to grow the state in any meaningful way.