5 hours ago, DarkandStormy said:

but do you have any NYC businesses that moved to Ohio and cited the lower taxes or lower rent (or the JobsOhio ad campaign) as the reason for moving here?

This is an old article, but has some decent info:

 

Businesses Move To The Midwest, First Stop: Columbus

 

...

 

Low business costs incentivize companies to grow

 

In comparison to traditional entrepreneurial hubs like New York City, Boston and Silicon Valley, the Columbus Region, and Ohio as a whole, offers comparatively low operating costs for businesses. Columbus’ attractive tax climate was ranked as one of the top three most business-friendly environments in the U.S. by KPMG and EY.

 

Further, the cost of living in Central Ohio is 10 percent lower than the national average, making living and working in the Columbus Region more affordable for entrepreneurs and local employers alike. These factors, in combination with strong entrepreneurial resources, make the region and state an ideal spot to start businesses, and also scale them.

 

Full article: https://www.forbes.com/sites/groupthink/2018/02/18/businesses-move-to-the-midwest-first-stop-columbus/?sh=2d4a2be53721

 

 

 

Here's another:

 

Apple picks North Carolina over Ohio, but One Columbus still tending many fruits

 

...

 

Ohio was in fact the first runner-up, according to an executive summary by the North Carolina Department of Commerce, which unlike JobsOhio is a government agency.

 

Ohio offers "lucrative incentives," including grants, tax credits, jobs incentives, plus overall low business taxes, the document said. North Carolina countered with incentives paid out based on income tax withholding from new jobs that would total $846 million over 39 years, almost recouping the capital expense.

 

"The company has stated that an award at this level is critical to North Carolina's consideration as the project location," it said.

 

Full article: https://www.bizjournals.com/columbus/news/2021/04/28/one-columbus-many-deals-ahead-despite-apple-loss.html

 

 

 

More:

 

Columbus council approves tax incentive for tech-driven lender

 

A San Francisco-area-based tech-driven lender has received the approval of the Columbus City Council for a job-incentive package tied to opening a local office that city officials say will create 100 full-time jobs in the Short North.

 

Upstart Network plans to invest $1.4 million into its new office at 711 N. High St., while the estimated annual payroll will be $10.75 million.

 

Upstart Network will receive a jobs-growth incentive that will yield cash payments to the company totaling between $335,938 and $403,125 over five years. The company will receive 25% of the city income taxes withheld on new employees, or 30% of the income taxes withheld on new employees who live in Columbus.

 

Full article: https://www.dispatch.com/news/20190513/columbus-council-approves-tax-incentive-for-tech-driven-lender

 

 

 

Upstart(mentioned above) has now outgrown its San Francisco office in Columbus:

 

Upstart's Columbus 'HQ2' is now bigger than its Silicon Valley office

 

The Columbus HQ2 of newly public Upstart Holdings Inc. is now larger than its Silicon Valley office, and it's still hiring.

 

At some point in recent weeks, Columbus surpassed the San Mateo home – both are about 450 employees – and is growing faster on a path to 500 jobs, said Grant Schneider, data scientist who leads the second headquarters.

 

The Columbus operation has about doubled in size since sending everyone home from the Short North office, he said. The company had projected Columbus would be larger – it's just happening faster.

 

Full article: https://www.bizjournals.com/columbus/news/2021/05/28/upstart-columbus-office-passes-siliconn-valley.html

 

 

 

Dog lovers’ spending ignites hiring at Bark & Co.‘s Columbus ‘pawffice’

 

It wasn’t even two years ago that the company opened its Columbus office, its first outside of its New York City headquarters, with the help of state tax incentives. Now it plans to take over another floor of the Carlile Building, and the company will soon have more employees here than it does in New York.

 

Full article: https://www.dispatch.com/news/20170316/dog-lovers-spending-ignites-hiring-at-bark-amp-cos-columbus-pawffice

Edited June 23, 20213 yr by TH3BUDDHA

2 hours ago, taestell said:

 

My point is that they did not go with the proposal with the absolutely smallest tax burden. They are not building HQ2 in Kansas. They are putting those employees in a metro area (DC) that has the amenities that high paid white collar workers want. They may have chosen a lower tax area of the region, but it's still on the Metro line.

I get your point and agree with you. Amazon was going first of all after creative labor pools.  But by chosing Virginia and Long Island City, they chose locations that either were low-tax (VA) or nearby (LIC is not far from Nassau County on the LIRR), meaning cost-of-living considerations were secondary but not completely disregarded.

On 6/23/2021 at 2:05 PM, TH3BUDDHA said:

This is an old article, but has some decent info:

 

Businesses Move To The Midwest, First Stop: Columbus

 

...

 

Low business costs incentivize companies to grow

 

In comparison to traditional entrepreneurial hubs like New York City, Boston and Silicon Valley, the Columbus Region, and Ohio as a whole, offers comparatively low operating costs for businesses. Columbus’ attractive tax climate was ranked as one of the top three most business-friendly environments in the U.S. by KPMG and EY.

 

Further, the cost of living in Central Ohio is 10 percent lower than the national average, making living and working in the Columbus Region more affordable for entrepreneurs and local employers alike. These factors, in combination with strong entrepreneurial resources, make the region and state an ideal spot to start businesses, and also scale them.

 

Full article: https://www.forbes.com/sites/groupthink/2018/02/18/businesses-move-to-the-midwest-first-stop-columbus/?sh=2d4a2be53721

 

 

 

Here's another:

 

Apple picks North Carolina over Ohio, but One Columbus still tending many fruits

 

...

 

Ohio was in fact the first runner-up, according to an executive summary by the North Carolina Department of Commerce, which unlike JobsOhio is a government agency.

 

Ohio offers "lucrative incentives," including grants, tax credits, jobs incentives, plus overall low business taxes, the document said. North Carolina countered with incentives paid out based on income tax withholding from new jobs that would total $846 million over 39 years, almost recouping the capital expense.

 

"The company has stated that an award at this level is critical to North Carolina's consideration as the project location," it said.

 

Full article: https://www.bizjournals.com/columbus/news/2021/04/28/one-columbus-many-deals-ahead-despite-apple-loss.html

 

 

 

More:

 

Columbus council approves tax incentive for tech-driven lender

 

A San Francisco-area-based tech-driven lender has received the approval of the Columbus City Council for a job-incentive package tied to opening a local office that city officials say will create 100 full-time jobs in the Short North.

 

Upstart Network plans to invest $1.4 million into its new office at 711 N. High St., while the estimated annual payroll will be $10.75 million.

 

Upstart Network will receive a jobs-growth incentive that will yield cash payments to the company totaling between $335,938 and $403,125 over five years. The company will receive 25% of the city income taxes withheld on new employees, or 30% of the income taxes withheld on new employees who live in Columbus.

 

Full article: https://www.dispatch.com/news/20190513/columbus-council-approves-tax-incentive-for-tech-driven-lender

 

 

 

Upstart(mentioned above) has now outgrown its San Francisco office in Columbus:

 

Upstart's Columbus 'HQ2' is now bigger than its Silicon Valley office

 

The Columbus HQ2 of newly public Upstart Holdings Inc. is now larger than its Silicon Valley office, and it's still hiring.

 

At some point in recent weeks, Columbus surpassed the San Mateo home – both are about 450 employees – and is growing faster on a path to 500 jobs, said Grant Schneider, data scientist who leads the second headquarters.

 

The Columbus operation has about doubled in size since sending everyone home from the Short North office, he said. The company had projected Columbus would be larger – it's just happening faster.

 

Full article: https://www.bizjournals.com/columbus/news/2021/05/28/upstart-columbus-office-passes-siliconn-valley.html

 

 

 

Dog lovers’ spending ignites hiring at Bark & Co.‘s Columbus ‘pawffice’

 

It wasn’t even two years ago that the company opened its Columbus office, its first outside of its New York City headquarters, with the help of state tax incentives. Now it plans to take over another floor of the Carlile Building, and the company will soon have more employees here than it does in New York.

 

Full article: https://www.dispatch.com/news/20170316/dog-lovers-spending-ignites-hiring-at-bark-amp-cos-columbus-pawffice

@DarkandStormyanother article from today:

 

Biotech firm to build $365 million packaging plant in New Albany

 

The company will hire technicians, engineers, managers and other positions to staff the plant. The facility is expected to have an annual payroll of around $41 million. 

 

The state tax credits are worth up to $15 million over the next 15 years, depending on how many jobs are created. The city of New Albany has granted other tax breaks, including a 100% property tax abatement for 15 years, for the project.

 

Amgen Senior Vice President of Manufacturing Arleen Paulino said the company chose New Albany for its factory because of access to talented workers, "favorable operating costs," a centralized location for logistics and "the vibrant business climate."

 

Full article: https://www.dispatch.com/story/business/2021/06/28/biotech-firm-amgen-employ-400-new-new-albany-factory/5364472001/

Edited June 28, 20213 yr by TH3BUDDHA

On 6/23/2021 at 2:04 PM, Mendo said:

 

Lure which companies? You mentioned Columbus earlier. Which companies moved there or opened substantial footprints in the area? I don't know the market there so I'm genuinely curious.

 

Again I mean other than warehouse or other light industrial uses. Those jobs are important but they aren't going to grow the state in any meaningful way.

See my most recent comments.

You can think that the billboards are throwing money down the drain, and also think that the general lower taxes, tax incentives, and cost of living can be enticing for companies to move here.

 

The billboards are dumb. Anyone looking at relocating or expanding to the tune of 100's of millions is usually going to do an extensive review of multiple potential locations, which will include cost of living (how much they have to pay their employees), tax burden on the company, talent pool in the region, and tax incentives given. No one is arguing that a lower tax burden on its own drives away potential companies. But many would argue that an artificially low tax burden on companies decreases the services, amenities, etc in the state that draws talent out. This leads to companies passing certain regions over to go for a place that is more attractive to employees, and thus has a higher concentration of qualified workers.

37 minutes ago, ryanlammi said:

Anyone looking at relocating or expanding to the tune of 100's of millions is usually going to do an extensive review of multiple potential locations, which will include cost of living (how much they have to pay their employees), tax burden on the company, talent pool in the region, and tax incentives given.

Exactly!  Seems like you'd want to advertise that you have an entire organization dedicated solely to making this process as smooth and painless as possible.  You'd risk being passed up by some companies if you didn't.

24 minutes ago, TH3BUDDHA said:

Exactly!  Seems like you'd want to advertise that you have an entire organization dedicated solely to making this process as smooth and painless as possible.  You'd risk being passed up by some companies if you didn't.

 

You don't need a billboard to advertise this. every state has an organization like this. Some are official branches of the State Governments (which is way more transparent and responsible), and some have a pseudo-private organization that gets taxpayer money and less oversight (like Ohio). These people making the decisions aren't going to not know about this. The company likely hires a consultant to evaluate their options, and then a board governing the company will make a decision. 

 

We don't need billboards advertising Ohio to companies.

Every city, state, town has an economic development agency/office/person. Also regions have them. Counties too.

18 minutes ago, ryanlammi said:

 

You don't need a billboard to advertise this. every state has an organization like this. Some are official branches of the State Governments (which is way more transparent and responsible), and some have a pseudo-private organization that gets taxpayer money and less oversight (like Ohio). These people making the decisions aren't going to not know about this. The company likely hires a consultant to evaluate their options, and then a board governing the company will make a decision. 

 

We don't need billboards advertising Ohio to companies.

Well, I'm sure that you have done your due diligence and have done more market research than the marketing team putting millions into a national campaign.  I'm sure all of these billions in corporate investment must be the result of Ohio's superior amenities rather than these kinds of efforts.  I guess I'll take your word for it.  So, I guess we're done here.

 

28 minutes ago, ryanlammi said:

gets taxpayer money and less oversight (like Ohio)

Even though I know you've done your research, I think it's important to note that JobsOhio is not funded by tax dollars: 

https://www.jobsohio.com/about-jobsohio/about-us/understanding-jobsohios-funding/

27 minutes ago, GCrites80s said:

Every city, state, town has an economic development agency/office/person. Also regions have them. Counties too.

But, not every city, state, town is seeing the level of corporate investment that Ohio is.  Maybe they should try billboards.

10 minutes ago, TH3BUDDHA said:

Even though I know you've done your research, I think it's important to note that JobsOhio is not funded by tax dollars: 

https://www.jobsohio.com/about-jobsohio/about-us/understanding-jobsohios-funding/

 

I would call privatizing liquor sales in the state, and giving profits to an organization that does economic development for the state an extremely roundabout way of taxation. By a dictionary definition of "tax" it would not meet that standard. But it essentially functions as a tax. A "private" nonprofit has the exclusive right to sell liquor in the state. They then use "profits" from those rights to help economic development deals in the state. If it wasn't privatized to this outside source, the money would all stay within the State of Ohio's budget in some capacity (potentially it would be "lost" in inefficiencies inside the state-run branch that operates liquor sales, but there's nothing inherently stopping them from being more efficient). I would bet that JobsOhio is more efficient at running the liquor sales than the State was before JobsOhio took over. I'm not arguing that point. There is a certain amount of control the public loses with privatization. It's not always a net negative, but it does lose some control. But again, this wasn't really the point of the post. We could have set up this private nonprofit to run the liquor sales, and then divert all "profits" to a public economic development department run by the state. But we didn't do that.

 

15 minutes ago, TH3BUDDHA said:

Well, I'm sure that you have done your due diligence and have done more market research than the marketing team putting millions into a national campaign.  I'm sure all of these billions in corporate investment must be the result of Ohio's superior amenities rather than these kinds of efforts.  I guess I'll take your word for it.  So, I guess we're done here.

 

The billions in corporate investment are a result of specific companies having specific needs, and JobsOhio inking development deals with these corporations. I'm not arguing at all the JobsOhio is not doing good work. It's a convoluted way to privatize the state's work.

 

3 minutes ago, TH3BUDDHA said:

But, not every city, state, town is seeing the level of corporate investment that Ohio is.  Maybe they should try billboards.

 

You're right. Some have more and some have less corporate investment. You can't point to individual deals and say that we are doing better than other states. Every state has it's own unique position that makes the evaluation of specific programs difficult to compare. Total investment is going to generally be higher in larger states, and percentage increase is going to be much higher in some smaller states simply due to the affect one project has on the total. North Dakota probably had one of the best increases per capita in the last decade because of the natural gas being extracted. I'm sure it had little to do with their economic development arm of the state. It just struck gold with the shale boom. Every state's situation is unique.

 

I would also argue some of the states in the southwest benefit from having relatively little old building stock and infrastructure. In a few decades, we'll likely see investments shift away from these states as it becomes more expensive to maintain the infrastructure that is new right now. It's not always about who is doing the best work luring companies.

 

Basically, we're arguing a completely unwinnable argument re: billboards. We can't live in a world where the billboards don't exist.

1 minute ago, ryanlammi said:

Basically, we're arguing a completely unwinnable argument re: billboards. We can't live in a world where the billboards don't exist.

Just for the record, I don't really care that much about the billboards in particular.  It just happened to be the topic of discussion that led to this.  I just think that JobsOhio, and Ohio in general, is getting a little more sh*t currently than they deserve.  I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that the state is currently politically conservative and people automatically want to act like any conservative state is a desolate sh*thole that scares away businesses.  We're getting a lot of good projects, and as a lifelong Ohioan, it makes me glad to see.  I'll leave it as that as I know I can be argumentative and it rubs people the wrong way.

The District of Columbia is soliciting bids for up to 22 Endurance trucks from dealers of Lordstown Motors.

 

 

20 hours ago, TH3BUDDHA said:

But, not every city, state, town is seeing the level of corporate investment that Ohio is.  Maybe they should try billboards.

 

You shared a lot of anecdotal examples of companies saying Ohio has a great business environment but when companies locate somewhere they almost always say that. I could find you examples from all 50 states. Is there any data you've seen that shows that Ohio is in the top-tier (or even above average) when it comes to corporate investment? 

That's the tough part about measuring the success of economic development differences. It's quite hard to quantify directly due to self-reporting bias. Companies and executives say they did it for this reason and/or that reason but they never give the full story and even lie in an effort to change governmental behavior. There's a tremendous amount of variables involved.

 

A lot of relocations and decisions to expand in X area are due to executive biases and company culture.

36 minutes ago, DEPACincy said:

 

You shared a lot of anecdotal examples of companies saying Ohio has a great business environment but when companies locate somewhere they almost always say that. I could find you examples from all 50 states. Is there any data you've seen that shows that Ohio is in the top-tier (or even above average) when it comes to corporate investment? 

Yes.  If you look further up in this thread, you will see that Ohio is #1 in the country for corporate investment projects per capita and #2 behind only Texas in raw numbers of projects.  This is according to SiteSelection and their criteria for a "project".  If you look at the rest of the list near the top, it is filled with other states that are currently considered hot spots for population growth and business investment.  I would also argue that the Forbes article that I posted is not really "anecdotal" as it is a national publication looking at things from a national standpoint over time.

Edited June 29, 20213 yr by TH3BUDDHA

24 minutes ago, GCrites80s said:

That's the tough part about measuring the success of economic development differences. It's quite hard to quantify directly due to self-reporting bias. Companies and executives say they did it for this reason and/or that reason but they never give the full story and even lie in an effort to change governmental behavior. There's a tremendous amount of variables involved.

 

A lot of relocations and decisions to expand in X area are due to executive biases and company culture.

As I said above, my main point is that, regardless of the reason for investment, Ohio is currently getting investment, and a decent amount of it.  Ignoring the billboards in particular, I think the state and any organizations working towards getting that investment deserve a little credit even though people want to keep sh*tting on them for some reason.  Something is working.  That's my point.

When a Company is dangling good jobs as an incitement for States / Cities they will get a sweetheart deal basically anywhere they want. As silly as it sounds, a lot of expansions/relocations in certain areas come down to the people making those choices enjoy spending time in that city or they have family there... etc. 

 

No company would admit that is the reason publicly, and always will give the "right reasons" on why they moved. 

4 hours ago, TH3BUDDHA said:

As I said above, my main point is that, regardless of the reason for investment, Ohio is currently getting investment, and a decent amount of it.  Ignoring the billboards in particular, I think the state and any organizations working towards getting that investment deserve a little credit even though people want to keep sh*tting on them for some reason.  Something is working.  That's my point.

 

Ohio ranks below average for life expectancy, median household income, median wage, population growth, job growth, etc. etc. etc. I'm not sure Site Selection's methodology is useful if you can rank so poorly in all those categories and still come out one top. What good is "corporate investment" if it doesn't benefit our citizens? Where is that investment going if we rank so poorly in job and wage growth?

18 minutes ago, DEPACincy said:

 

Ohio ranks below average for life expectancy, median household income, median wage, population growth, job growth, etc. etc. etc. I'm not sure Site Selection's methodology is useful if you can rank so poorly in all those categories and still come out one top. What good is "corporate investment" if it doesn't benefit our citizens? Where is that investment going if we rank so poorly in job and wage growth?

You're fighting a strawman here to try and counter my point that Ohio is getting a lot of investment.  I never made any claims to any of the metrics you mentioned and that discussion on "benefiting citizens" is an entirely different one than the one we are having.  That being said, if you look, Ohio has only just started to win the SiteSelection Governor's Cup.  So, all of these metrics that you mentioned will lag behind several years of doing well with that as many of the projects aren't even complete yet.  You won't just win that for one year and then instantly reverse decades of bad data.  As we know, the census underestimated our population by 100k.  Time will tell if that turns around even more.  I'm personally expecting this decade to be very bright for Ohio based on projects coming online around the state.  It's blatantly obvious there are many quality things happening around the state right now.

Edited June 29, 20213 yr by TH3BUDDHA

15 hours ago, TH3BUDDHA said:

You're fighting a strawman here to try and counter my point that Ohio is getting a lot of investment.  I never made any claims to any of the metrics you mentioned and that discussion on "benefiting citizens" is an entirely different one than the one we are having.  That being said, if you look, Ohio has only just started to win the SiteSelection Governor's Cup.  So, all of these metrics that you mentioned will lag behind several years of doing well with that as many of the projects aren't even complete yet.  You won't just win that for one year and then instantly reverse decades of bad data.  As we know, the census underestimated our population by 100k.  Time will tell if that turns around even more.  I'm personally expecting this decade to be very bright for Ohio based on projects coming online around the state.  It's blatantly obvious there are many quality things happening around the state right now.

 

I'm not fighting anything. Just asking questions about their methodology and what it means. It just doesn't seem to me that it's a very good metric to meaningfully show anything. Maybe I'm wrong on that account. I would like to understand it better. 

 

I'm bullish on Ohio. I'm not trying to be a negative Nancy. I hope you're right that it will be a bright decade for us.

The other thing is that while Ohio may have low state taxes the local taxes in Columbus are outrageous. As in some of the highest in the country. It's easy to have low state taxes if you cut state funding to cities/counties and make them raise more money on their own.

21 hours ago, TH3BUDDHA said:

You're fighting a strawman here to try and counter my point that Ohio is getting a lot of investment.  I never made any claims to any of the metrics you mentioned and that discussion on "benefiting citizens" is an entirely different one than the one we are having.  That being said, if you look, Ohio has only just started to win the SiteSelection Governor's Cup.  So, all of these metrics that you mentioned will lag behind several years of doing well with that as many of the projects aren't even complete yet.  You won't just win that for one year and then instantly reverse decades of bad data.  As we know, the census underestimated our population by 100k.  Time will tell if that turns around even more.  I'm personally expecting this decade to be very bright for Ohio based on projects coming online around the state.  It's blatantly obvious there are many quality things happening around the state right now.

It's a legit question about the quality of that investment. Amazon recently opened a delivery-warehouse in Toledo on the site of the old Southwyck Mall, heralding "400 jobs!!" Turns out 390 of those are part time with no benefits; there are ten full time jobs.  

Then there's Ye Olde Foxconn Debacle in Wisconsin.

7 hours ago, GCrites80s said:

The other thing is that while Ohio may have low state taxes the local taxes in Columbus are outrageous. As in some of the highest in the country. It's easy to have low state taxes if you cut state funding to cities/counties and make them raise more money on their own.

This is true anywhere you go.   

 

Most Trumpublicans point to Germany as an example of what you pay when you live in a "socialist country."   The tax burden is somewhere around 50% for top earners.   But if you add up Federal, state, local and other taxes, depending on where you live this number starts to creep up to 40-50% of your income.  I'd personally pay just a bit more in taxes to get the healthcare, schools, roads, bridges, airports and other fine examples of infrastructure that Germans enjoy.  

 

 

21 hours ago, GCrites80s said:

The other thing is that while Ohio may have low state taxes the local taxes in Columbus are outrageous. As in some of the highest in the country. It's easy to have low state taxes if you cut state funding to cities/counties and make them raise more money on their own.

 

They are?  Which taxes are you talking about?

 

City income tax - 2.5%.  How is this more than most other cities in Ohio?  Or other cities in the country?

Sales tax - 7.5%.  This is a base rate of 5.75% (Ohio state sales tax), 1.25% for Franklin county, and then a special 0.5% tax for the city, I believe.  Anyway, 7.5% is, again, in line with the rest of the state.

On 6/29/2021 at 10:25 AM, Dougal said:

The District of Columbia is soliciting bids for up to 22 Endurance trucks from dealers of Lordstown Motors.

 

 

 

I posted it in the investments thread, but there's a pretty big question mark about Lordstown Motors as a going concern.  A lot of red flags that appear like fraud (as of now).

1 hour ago, DarkandStormy said:

 

They are?  Which taxes are you talking about?

 

City income tax - 2.5%.  How is this more than most other cities in Ohio?  Or other cities in the country?

Sales tax - 7.5%.  This is a base rate of 5.75% (Ohio state sales tax), 1.25% for Franklin county, and then a special 0.5% tax for the city, I believe.  Anyway, 7.5% is, again, in line with the rest of the state.

 

Now add our totally out of line property taxes.

2 hours ago, GCrites80s said:

 

Now add our totally out of line property taxes.

Necessitated by repeated state tax cuts and reductions in spending from the state (including reduction/elimination of the state estate tax and reduced state support for public education). 

 

Running a city costs money, whether it comes from the state or the local government.  And the state limits municipal income tax rates.  So how do you pay for city services -- police/fire/road maintenance? 

 

Would it be better if the state would impose a 3% "municipal" tax that is just passed through to local communities?  I don't know.

16 hours ago, Foraker said:

Would it be better if the state would impose a 3% "municipal" tax that is just passed through to local communities?  I don't know.

 

I live in a township, where I pay 0% municipal tax and everything seems to work out okay. The overall tax burden is cheaper than the two municipalities that are in the same school district.

 

I made a spreadsheet when I moved last year that looked at the overall tax burden in various communities around Cincinnati, including property taxes, income taxes (and which jurisdictions have reciprocity), and other fees (like trash collection). I was surprised how much it varies from town to town - we were looking at thousands of dollars a year in variance.

On 7/1/2021 at 10:58 AM, DarkandStormy said:

I posted it in the investments thread, but there's a pretty big question mark about Lordstown Motors as a going concern.  A lot of red flags that appear like fraud (as of now).

 

What timing...

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/lordstown-stock-halted-wsj-reports-justice-department-probe-2021-07-02?siteid=yhoof2

 

Quote

Lordstown Motors Corp. stock was halted midday Friday. The shares were down more than 16%. Earlier Friday, The Wall Street Journal reported that the Justice Department had launched a probe into the company's dealings, citing people familiar with the matter. Electric-truck maker Lordstown has disclosed a SEC inquiry and recently added a "going concern" warning to regulatory filings, following the departure of key executives and doubts over its order book, which the company clarified are not binding. The stock has lost 54% this year, contrasting with gains of 15% for the S&P 500 index.

 

On 7/1/2021 at 12:34 PM, GCrites80s said:

 

Now add our totally out of line property taxes.

Property taxes are outrageous in OH. It’s one of the factors that has historically suppressed values. 

 

On 7/2/2021 at 12:44 PM, TheCOV said:

Property taxes are outrageous in OH. It’s one of the factors that has historically suppressed values. 

 

For my first house in Cincinnati, the assessed value spiked so much over the first few years that the property tax bill ended up being higher than my mortgage payment.

So the Cincinnati property tax rollback didn't help that situation? 

13 hours ago, GCrites80s said:

So the Cincinnati property tax rollback didn't help that situation? 

 

With the rollback, the city collects the same fixed amount, but if your property value increases more than the average, you still owe more while someone with a property that decreases or increases less than average will owe less. The city gets the same amount, they just take it from different properties.

Property taxes are so often associated with "the city" but generally school districts receive the majority share of property tax distributions, and the city/village share is much less significant. Townships, which usually do not have income tax revenues unless they benefit from a JEDD, may receive a larger share of property taxes, but generally municipalities are not the big dog.

 

For instance, here's the tax distribution for a parcel in Cincinnati:

• School District (63.6%)
• City/Village (14.1%)
• Children Services (4.8%)
• Developmental Disabilities (4.2%)
• HLTH/Hospital Care-Indigent(2.7%)
• County General Fund (2.5%)
• Mental Health Levy (2.4%)
• Public Library (2.0%)
• Senior Services (1.6%)
• Park District (1.0%)
• Zoological Park (0.5%)
• Family Service/Treatment (0.3%)
• Crime Information Center (0.3%)

 

On 7/1/2021 at 10:56 AM, DarkandStormy said:

 

They are?  Which taxes are you talking about?

 

City income tax - 2.5%.  How is this more than most other cities in Ohio?  Or other cities in the country?

Sales tax - 7.5%.  This is a base rate of 5.75% (Ohio state sales tax), 1.25% for Franklin county, and then a special 0.5% tax for the city, I believe.  Anyway, 7.5% is, again, in line with the rest of the state.

 

Cincinnati income tax is 1.8%. The sales tax was 7% until it was just recently increased to 7.8%. 

 

Yet, Columbus is still growing A LOT faster.

Also there's school district income taxes in many districts in Ohio that are distinct from the ones associated with property taxes. Some are collected by employers where with others you get a bill from RITA.

Ohio may be well positioned for real growth as climate migration increases in the coming decades. 

 

I work for a company that is based in California. More and more of my CA colleagues are talking about a desire to move out of CA.  A big driver seems to be climate change.  The water rationing, fires, constant smoke in the air are all taking a toll on people.   I've had a number of people ask me about Ohio and is it a good place to live.  

The first couple conversations I dismissed as one offs.  But, it is happening more regularly.   And now the fires are spreading in Washington and Oregon too.  

 

If you also factor in stronger, more damaging hurricanes, many of the areas that had the highest growth rates in the late 20th century will soon be unlivable.  

 

1 hour ago, OH_Really said:

I've had a number of people ask me about Ohio and is it a good place to live.

 

I've been asked this a few times and I'm generally torn. I think Ohio is a great place to live especially if you are raising a family, but I don't want people from the coasts to realize that. I generally just tell them about the bad aspects and leave it at that. Snow and 200 days of clouds is a good way to scare away the west coasters. I also try to throw in a line about Austin or Charlotte or Nashville while I'm at it.

54 minutes ago, Ram23 said:

 

I've been asked this a few times and I'm generally torn. I think Ohio is a great place to live especially if you are raising a family, but I don't want people from the coasts to realize that. I generally just tell them about the bad aspects and leave it at that. Snow and 200 days of clouds is a good way to scare away the west coasters. I also try to throw in a line about Austin or Charlotte or Nashville while I'm at it.

 

We need job and population growth in the state and more diversity of jobs and talent in the state. I would not intentionally scare off people who earnestly inquire about the state. We're getting redder and redder and thus increasingly more backwards and will have a lower and lower quality of life. The only way this will change is with an influx of people that aren't backwards that can vote these people out and return Ohio to be a desirable place again. Tell people from Dallas and Arkansas and Alabama that Ohio is cloudy and cold, but not people from the coasts!

 

2 hours ago, OH_Really said:

Ohio may be well positioned for real growth as climate migration increases in the coming decades. 

 

I work for a company that is based in California. More and more of my CA colleagues are talking about a desire to move out of CA.  A big driver seems to be climate change.  The water rationing, fires, constant smoke in the air are all taking a toll on people.   I've had a number of people ask me about Ohio and is it a good place to live.  

The first couple conversations I dismissed as one offs.  But, it is happening more regularly.   And now the fires are spreading in Washington and Oregon too.  

 

If you also factor in stronger, more damaging hurricanes, many of the areas that had the highest growth rates in the late 20th century will soon be unlivable.  

 

 

 

Putting aside the climate stuff, it's also real estate problem. It's simply unsustainable to have the entire industries concentrated in a handful of cities. Not enough room. It becomes unsustainable for people in Seattle or SF to live there - even high-income people - and that's before we even talk about the climate stuff which is a huge problem as well.

 

With both of these factors, we are going to get a lot of people moving here - hopefully job opportunities moving here as well. Buy your Ohio real estate now because it's only going to keep going up.

Edited August 5, 20213 yr by mu2010

24 minutes ago, Pugu said:

 

We need job and population growth in the state and more diversity of jobs and talent in the state. I would not intentionally scare off people who earnestly inquire about the state. We're getting redder and redder and thus increasingly more backwards and will have a lower and lower quality of life. The only way this will change is with an influx of people that aren't backwards that can vote these people out and return Ohio to be a desirable place again. Tell people from Dallas and Arkansas and Alabama that Ohio is cloudy and cold, but not people from the coasts!

 

Florida, although by no means solidly red, has certainly been leaning red for a while now, and it's easily one of the most diverse states in the country. According to this US News article, red states seem to be doing quite well--

 

Report: Red States Have the Best Economies

The 14th issue of the report from the American Legislative Exchange Council lauds states that follow conservative economic policies.

 

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/articles/2021-05-12/report-red-states-have-the-best-economies-by-following-a-low-tax-path

13 minutes ago, eastvillagedon said:

 

Florida, although by no means solidly red, has certainly been leaning red for a while now, and it's easily one of the most diverse states in the country. According to this US News article, red states seem to be doing quite well--

 

Report: Red States Have the Best Economies

The 14th issue of the report from the American Legislative Exchange Council lauds states that follow conservative economic policies.

 

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/articles/2021-05-12/report-red-states-have-the-best-economies-by-following-a-low-tax-path

 

What a surprise! The conservative, corporate, and right-wing supported American Legislative Exchange Council "lauds states that follow conservative economic policies."

 

And even if ALEC were credible, the red states are not just about conservative economic policies, but backwards social ones that are bad for the future of America.

14 minutes ago, Pugu said:

And even if ALEC were credible, the red states are not just about conservative economic policies, but backwards social ones that are bad for the future of America.

Can you show me migration trend data that suggests that politics is a significant factor in interstate migration decisions?  If so, can you then point to data that suggests that interstate migration patterns over the past several decades heavily favor moves from red states to blue states?  Based on the migration trends we've seen, there are really two options: 1) Most don't really take politics into consideration when deciding to move and do it for other things like a job or climate.(This is the most likely option) 2) People DO care about politics, but actually prefer moving from blue states to red states.  Most of the growth for decades has been to red states.  Many of those states have trended blue, but were solidly red when massive growth first started occurring.

Edited August 5, 20213 yr by TH3BUDDHA

4 hours ago, TH3BUDDHA said:

Can you show me migration trend data that suggests that politics is a significant factor in interstate migration decisions?  If so, can you then point to data that suggests that interstate migration patterns over the past several decades heavily favor moves from red states to blue states?  Based on the migration trends we've seen, there are really two options: 1) Most don't really take politics into consideration when deciding to move and do it for other things like a job or climate.(This is the most likely option) 2) People DO care about politics, but actually prefer moving from blue states to red states.  Most of the growth for decades has been to red states.  Many of those states have trended blue, but were solidly red when massive growth first started occurring.

 

I don't have data or the time to dig for some, but I will say this: politics and quality of life are interconnected. Texas (outside of Austin) and all of the south is pretty hellish to me---backwards, close-minded, racist, etc. So though I have moved around in my life for jobs, I have never ever applied to any jobs in the south---no matter how tantalizing--because there's no way in hell I'd want to live in the south. So, in a way, MY MOVES were directly affected by politics. And I can be certain I am not the only person in the US who thinks this way. There's probably no data source for people who didn't apply to jobs. Decent people are attracted to good places and stay away from bad places. If we want more non-hateful, non-racist, non-backwards people in Ohio, we need better policies (and politics) in the state that will make decent people WANT to be here and apply for jobs here instead of staying away like I do with the south. My company has jobs to fill and can't get people, because so many people don't want to come here. For some, it may be they don't want to move to Cleveland as we have a bad rep as a city (though that is fading), for others, they don''t see "Cleveland" they see "Ohio" and don't want to be in a backwards, trump-supporting state (and that sentiment is increasing).

16 hours ago, Pugu said:

We need job and population growth in the state and more diversity of jobs and talent in the state. I would not intentionally scare off people who earnestly inquire about the state. We're getting redder and redder and thus increasingly more backwards and will have a lower and lower quality of life. The only way this will change is with an influx of people that aren't backwards that can vote these people out and return Ohio to be a desirable place again. Tell people from Dallas and Arkansas and Alabama that Ohio is cloudy and cold, but not people from the coasts!

 

That's a good line - I'll be sure to tell them that, too.

 

Personally, I really like Ohio and like the trajectory we're on. We live in a moderately conservative, family friendly state and those are among our biggest assets. I don't see a lot of need for any fundamental changes, especially political or population changes.

11 hours ago, Pugu said:

Texas (outside of Austin) and all of the south is pretty hellish to me

Edit: I misread your comment.

Edited August 6, 20213 yr by TH3BUDDHA