Im old enough to remember hearing all of this 40 years ago.  What's changed?

I don't think is just the number or size of buildings, its the farm town/college town/small town culture of Columbus that make it feel as a smaller place than Cleveland or Cincinnati.  Two posts above someone said Columbus 2020 is now "One Columbus". That's just an outright copy of Cuyahoga County from 10 years ago which has since abandoned such branding, which was "One Cuyahoga", which didn't make sense anyway---it sounds like a unity platform or something, not about growth.

Edited September 22, 20195 yr by Pugu

There is no city in Ohio with a bigger small town culture than Cincinnati. 

42 minutes ago, TH3BUDDHA said:

Looks to be a pretty big Cleveland booster based on post history.  Probably one of those "Columbus isn't a real city" people when they hear about Columbus' success, which would explain the "Haha" response.  It seems like this site in general seems to be very pro-Cleveland and a bit anti-Columbus.  

 

Just an FYI, no.  The site's owner (aka me...and yes, Rich) are VERY pro-Columbus (hence ColDayMan).  The majority of the forumers are from Cleveland and Cincinnati so, of course, they are biased in their assessment (particularly the Cleveland forumers; Cincinnati forumers don't care about the rest of the state except strangely Troeros).  These past couple of years have been great for the Columbus section as many great new forumers have popped up to provide development news and commentary.  Trust me, even 5 years ago it was basically just a handful of us and random negative digs (as you've seen in this thread) from Northeast Ohioans.  So it's gotten much better overall.

 

Noooooow, let's get back to topic.

2019 Best of the Midwest: Startup Cities Rankings

Highlighting this year’s biggest winners in a surging tech ecosystem

https://blog.midweststartups.com/2019-best-of-the-midwest-startup-cities-rankings-2460f3ceaafa

 

Huntington Bank plans to cut 150 to 200 jobs

https://www.cleveland.com/business/2019/10/huntington-bank-plans-to-cut-150-to-200-jobs.html

Ohio’s economy could stall over next six months, federal bank projections show

https://www.cleveland.com/open/2019/11/ohios-economy-could-shrink-over-next-six-months-federal-bank-projections-show.html

 

"In its latest economic projections released this week, data from the Federal Reserve Bank of Philadelphia predict that unlike the national economy, which is projected to grow by 1.48%, Ohio’s economy will shrink by 0.04% over the next six months. ... Mark Partridge, an Ohio State University economist, said the inversion of the yield curve in September, when it briefly became cheaper to borrow money for the short term than for the long term, and the trade war, which has made it more costly for manufacturers to do business, are some of the factors that explain why Ohio’s economic numbers are looking relatively soft."

Rich Exner in cleveland.com reports Ohio's jobs number is down for the year through October.

 

https://www.cleveland.com/datacentral/2019/11/jobs-slide-down-this-year-in-ohio-neighboring-indiana-michigan-west-virginia.html

 

These numbers (rates, actually) do not agree with my usual BLS sources, both of which say

Ohio is UP on the year.

https://www.bls.gov/regions/midwest/ohio.htm

https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/surveymost?la+39

 

What am I missing?

Ask Rich by email or, if you dare to venture, post the question on cle-dot-com...

@Dougal I think you're looking at year over year, while Rich is comparing January to October. For January to October, I think your link lines up with his numbers.

Edited November 21, 20195 yr by StapHanger

37 minutes ago, StapHanger said:

@Dougal I think you're looking at year over year, while Rich is comparing January to October. For January to October, I think your link lines up with his numbers.

 

Ah, I see. He was counting total jobs, which declined very slightly, while I was counting in-state employment which rose - meaning, I guess, that some folks from PA, WV, KY, etc no longer work in Ohio,

^I think the two numbers also draw from different BLS sources, one that samples firms and one that samples households. And I don't think the samples are especially large for either, so quite a bit of noise.  For employment, I believe there's a quarterly product that's considered more reliable. 

^ The good news is he had to dig fairly deep to come up with bad news.

From the BLS numbers for the state as a whole, and for each of the three Cs (total non-farm): It looks like  from Jan-Oct and also YoY for each month so far this year that Cleveland, Cincinnati, and Columbus have been more than carrying the state. January to October the state as a whole is down 10,300. Over the same time, the sum total for the three C's shows and increase of 104,900 (+30,700 for Cleveland, +43,400 for Cincinnati, and +30,800 for Columbus). Very strong growth for the three, but that would be a net loss of 115,200 for the rest of Ohio. Akron,  Canton, Dayton,Toledo and even Youngstown(!) also showed gains for Jan-Oct. So either small town/rural Ohio is in absolute crisis for job growth, or there is a major discrepancy between where the statewide numbers and metro numbers are coming from.

Amazing numbers. Despite everything the state has done to weaken Ohio's largest urban areas, they continue to be the strength of Ohio. Imagine how much stronger they'd be with a supportive state government. 

My gut feeling and i know that is worth quite a bit, is that people are coming into this area from outside the region to work. Also Millennials are leaving smaller towns like Medina, Wooster, or even Kent that have moved to Tremont and Ohio city. Talking to townhall bartenders and servers most seem to be originally from exurbs outside Cleveland.  Not to mention all the massive new building construction going on all over Cuyahoga county where specialty trades are big in demand. 

  The craft brewing industry adds much more than people realize. Its manufacturing that stays in Ohio. There are a lot of supporting manufacturers that are also in Ohio from glass in Toledo to farmers in the region to packaging and marketing materials.  It is now a multi-billion dollar industry from almost nothing 20 years ago. 

  There are constantly new Ohio companies that are doing radically new and cutting edge things.  Here is a new one i found the other week,  Tesla NanoCoatings now in North Canton. No relation to tesla car company.  They use nanotubes to coat metals used in caustic environments like pipes in deep sea drilling, tanker trucks, or even bridge underpasses. 

http://www.glideit.org/news/press-releases/sk-global-chemical-to-invest-more-than-$50-million-in-tesla-nanocoatings

 

On 11/21/2019 at 9:52 PM, audidave said:

My gut feeling and i know that is worth quite a bit, is that people are coming into this area from outside the region to work. Also Millennials are leaving smaller towns like Medina, Wooster, or even Kent that have moved to Tremont and Ohio city. Talking to townhall bartenders and servers most seem to be originally from exurbs outside Cleveland.  Not to mention all the massive new building construction going on all over Cuyahoga county where specialty trades are big in demand. 

  The craft brewing industry adds much more than people realize. Its manufacturing that stays in Ohio. There are a lot of supporting manufacturers that are also in Ohio from glass in Toledo to farmers in the region to packaging and marketing materials.  It is now a multi-billion dollar industry from almost nothing 20 years ago. 

  There are constantly new Ohio companies that are doing radically new and cutting edge things.  Here is a new one i found the other week,  Tesla NanoCoatings now in North Canton. No relation to tesla car company.  They use nanotubes to coat metals used in caustic environments like pipes in deep sea drilling, tanker trucks, or even bridge underpasses. 

http://www.glideit.org/news/press-releases/sk-global-chemical-to-invest-more-than-$50-million-in-tesla-nanocoatings

 

 

 

tesla nano better be wary of relying on drilling pipes. there is a steel plant in lorain that had over 12k workers for decades that relied on that and last i heard now has three employees. 

The Lorain mill was updated and is active again, although with only 60 employees. Apparently it is significantly automated:

https://fox8.com/2019/01/23/republic-steels-lorain-mill-to-start-production-within-months/

 

The new V&M mill in Youngstown/Girard is still cranking out the drilling pipes.

 

Interesting stuff, @audidave. I think their stories of why they moved from the hinterlands and into the city is worth telling. I'd love to do an article on it someday. If there are any readers of this posting who moved from rural/exurban Ohio into the city of Cleveland (or its inner suburbs), I'd love to hear from you. Drop me a PM sometime soon.

^^Well the point of the coatings company is not the actual process, its the efficiency in only needing to apply a base coat and the final coat whereas other coatings companies to absolutely protect the metal need typically 4 coats to treat.  This therefore saves time and money in treatment. 

Metropolitan GDP numbers for 2018:   (EDIT:  Corrected from earlier)

 

Akron MSA            $36.8B

Cincinnati MSA    141.1B

Cleveland MSA    134.4B

Columbus MSA    129.3B

Cleveland Metro  171.2B

 

Change from 2017 to 2018:

 

Cleveland Metro   1.8%

Columbus MSA   1.9%

Cincinnati MSA   1.7%

 

Breaking down Cleveland Metro into its two MSAs:

 

Cleveland MSA   1.9%

Akron MSA   1.7%

 

Edited December 12, 20195 yr by Pugu

GDP growth rates 2017-2018 by each Ohio County and Ohio--Toledo beat Cleveland and Columbus!

 

 

Source: US Dept of Commerce

Edited December 12, 20195 yr by Pugu

Metro GDP changes 2017-2018 for select MSAs:

 

 

17 minutes ago, Pugu said:

Metropolitan GDP numbers for 2018:

 

Cleveland - Metro   $171.2B

Columbus MSA   $141.1B

Cincinnati MSA   $129.3B

 

Change from 2017 to 2018:

 

Cleveland Metro   1.8%

Columbus MSA   1.9%

Cincinnati MSA   1.7%

 

Breaking down Cleveland Metro into its two MSAs:

 

Cleveland MSA   1.9%

Akron MSA   1.7%

 

The way you did the GDP numbers is weird.  What you refer to as "Cleveland Metro" is the combined statistical area(CSA).  You compare the Cleveland CSA to Cinci and Columbus MSA.  Why not just do CSA or MSA for all of them?  Granted, the CSAs of Cinci and Columbus don't add much.  It's just weird using different metrics for different cities when doing a direct comparison between them.  That being said, your numbers for "Metropolitan GDP numbers for 2018" are incorrect because Akron isn't part of the metropolitan statistical area of Cleveland.

^"Metropolitan" and "MSA" are not the same thing.  "MSA" is a Dept of Commerce creation that puts wrongfully excludes some Cleveland suburbs from Cleveland. So that's why I use "Cleveland Metro" instead of "Cleveland MSA".  If you compare CLE to Columbus, that's how you have to do it.  CSA's are different---for CLE it would also include Canton and some other areas. I didn't use CSA values either.

 

 

USE my revised numbers above--some rows got messed up somehow. Sorry about that. Cinci MSA is larger than CLE's.  I also broke down Cleveland Metro into Cleveland MSA and Akron MSA for clarity.

Edited December 12, 20195 yr by Pugu

What is this Metro thing, and do the other cities have one?

^?? All cities have a metro area.  In some places, the government's MSA boundaries for a city may work. But for others, like Cleveland, it does not.

Comparing statistics like this is literally why MSAs and CSAs were made.

^Maybe they were made to compare places. But if some are accurately defined while others are not, what's the point of using them for comparisons?  But however you want to define a metro area, you can use the county-by-county numbers as well.

"Accurately defined". The same definition is used for all MSAs and CSAs.

20 minutes ago, aderwent said:

"Accurately defined". The same definition is used for all MSAs and CSAs.

 

Let me restate---the definition itself is problematic. It works for some places, but not others. It may work for Columbus, but it certainly doesn't work for Cleveland.  I'm not sure about Cincy. Should Dayton be part of Cincy's MSA or should it have its own?  

He's just trying to make up a new metric to lump in Akron to inflate Cleveland's numbers. 

 

Edit: And no, Dayton should not be considered part of Cincinnati's "metro area" or the Office of Management and Budget would have merged the two.

Edited December 12, 20195 yr by BigDipper 80

2 hours ago, Pugu said:

^"Metropolitan" and "MSA" are not the same thing.

Wait, so does that usage of "Metropolitan" have any official backing or is it just your personal preference?

 

 

35 minutes ago, Pugu said:

 

Let me restate---the definition itself is problematic. It works for some places, but not others. It may work for Columbus, but it certainly doesn't work for Cleveland.  I'm not sure about Cincy. Should Dayton be part of Cincy's MSA or should it have its own?  

I do agree that MSA and CSA are silly metrics, but you can't just mix and match. At that point you don't have anything meaningful to compare. Because by adding the Akron MSA to Cleveland's you gain some of Cleveland's suburbs that should probably be part of its MSA, but it also nets you parts of a region that is wholly its own in Akron.

 

It's why MSA with county boundaries only doesn't work for some cities. But adding MSAs together doesn't work either. I wish the Census Bureau would go all in on Urbanized Areas. Yearly estimates, GDP numbers, etc. Urbanized Area is the closest apples-to-apples comparison we have. However, when working with what we do have, it's important to use what is defined. Otherwise you end up with strange and inaccurate comparisons.

^I agree. Urbanized Area--if done right--would be the best metric. But will Akron still try to say they are a separate urbanized area? then we're back to a similar issue.  In any event, I did show every county in Ohio---so at very least for CLE, Columbus, Cinci, Youngstown, Toledo, etc.--you can use their counties as a uniform point of comparison.

25 minutes ago, BigDipper 80 said:

He's just trying to make up a new metric to lump in Akron to inflate Cleveland's numbers. 

 

Edit: And no, Dayton should not be considered part of Cincinnati's "metro area" or the Office of Management and Budget would have merged the two.

 

I wasn't trying to artificially inflate things, rather, make the data more accurate. Actually, the combination brings DOWN CLE's rate of growth.

 

Change from 2017 to 2018:

 

Cleveland Metro   1.8%

Cleveland MSA   1.9%

Akron MSA   1.7%

Akron is a separate UA than Cleveland (and rightfully so).  With UAs, Barberton would be an Akron suburb, not a Cleveland one.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_urban_areas

What's really interesting is that rather than actually LOOKING at the data, people seem so fixated on how boundaries are defined. 

 

ALL THREE of the Ohio 3's are lower than the US metro average.

Big growth is out west, and the 3C's are about equal to Chicago, and beat NYC.

All three C's had about the same rate of growth -- 1.7 to 1.9%

Columbus remains the 3rd largest economy and is 3x bigger than Dayton--the 4th.

Cinci MSA is the largest in OH

Adams County, OH had -35% GDP growth in one year -- thats a big deal--and its only 3 counties away from Cinci--its not Appalachia.

Monroe County--in Appalachia (I think)--had 27% growth.

1 minute ago, Pugu said:

Adams County, OH had -35% GDP growth in one year -- thats a big deal--and its only 3 counties away from Cinci--its not Appalachia.

 

Adams and Monroe Counties are without question Appalachian Ohio.  And being 3 counties away from Cincinnati doesn't mean it can't be Appalachia.  Cleveland and Columbus ALSO have counties that are 3 counties away that are thoroughly Appalachian.

 

Clermont County directly touches Hamilton County and is in Appalachia.

Some positive Ohio press.....

 

Reporting an outlook of 33%, Columbus has earned the distinction of being the No. 1 metro area for hiring in the Midwest and No. 2 in the nation. Some 18% of the population works in professional and business services, making that the most popular sector for employment in the  city. A hub for small and big businesses alike, the Accelerate Columbus and Goldman Sachs 10,000 Small Business Initiative programs have cultivated an entrepreneurial environment, one that has landed Columbus among the Kauffman Foundation’s top metro areas for startups three years in a row. In addition, jobs growth and downtown office incentives have attracted some of the area’s largest employers, among them JPMorgan Chase and Nationwide. The fastest-growing city in the Midwest, Columbus is  a microcosm of a larger employment trend that Stull has observed lately. “Companies are moving to where people are, as opposed to people moving to where companies are,” he says. “The Columbuses, the Pittsburghs, the Baltimores are being able to compete with jobs.”

https://www.forbes.com/sites/vickyvalet/2019/12/10/where-the-jobs-will-be-in-2020/#63659b515dec

Edited December 12, 20195 yr by Gnoraa

Per capita personal income, 2018 - Ohio MSAs.

 

 

Lots of good data released today!

 

1 hour ago, Gnoraa said:

Some positive Ohio press.....

 

Reporting an outlook of 33%, Columbus has earned the distinction of being the No. 1 metro area for hiring in the Midwest and No. 2 in the nation. Some 18% of the population works in professional and business services, making that the most popular sector for employment in the  city. A hub for small and big businesses alike, the Accelerate Columbus and Goldman Sachs 10,000 Small Business Initiative programs have cultivated an entrepreneurial environment, one that has landed Columbus among the Kauffman Foundation’s top metro areas for startups three years in a row. In addition, jobs growth and downtown office incentives have attracted some of the area’s largest employers, among them JPMorgan Chase and Nationwide. The fastest-growing city in the Midwest, Columbus is  a microcosm of a larger employment trend that Stull has observed lately. “Companies are moving to where people are, as opposed to people moving to where companies are,” he says. “The Columbuses, the Pittsburghs, the Baltimores are being able to compete with jobs.”

https://www.forbes.com/sites/vickyvalet/2019/12/10/where-the-jobs-will-be-in-2020/#63659b515dec

The Columbus Business First article actually mentions all the 3 C's and Dayton.

 

Looking for a job? Columbus tops the Midwest for best places to be in 2020

 

Cincinnati was tied for No. 8 in the ranking with Wichita, Kan.; Portland; Phoenix; Omaha, Neb., and Cleveland. Dayton came in at No. 9.

Forbes said 18% of the population in Columbus works in professional and business services – the most popular sector for employment in the city.

 

Article: https://www.bizjournals.com/columbus/news/2019/12/12/looking-for-a-job-columbus-tops-the-midwest-for.html

 

I also thought that the comparison of the different US regions by the Forbes article was interesting:

 

Of the four regions measured by ManpowerGroup—Midwest, Northeast, South and West—the South is projecting the greatest hiring prospects in the new year. But the Midwest isn’t far behind: Employers in this region are anticipating a seasonally adjusted net employment outlook of 21%, one percentage point higher year-over-year and the highest since 2001. As was the case in the South, the leisure and hospitality industry is propelling most of the hiring, its outlook at 32%, when seasonally adjusted. Unique to the Midwest, though, is a growing professional and business services sector, one with a seasonally adjusted net employment outlook of 30% that is best illustrated in Columbus, Ohio.

 

Here's a direct link to the actual report: https://www.manpowergroup.us/meos/public/pdf/employment-outlook-forecast.pdf

 

 

Edited December 12, 20195 yr by TH3BUDDHA

Interesting merger. If this is a merger of equals as they claim, where will the HQ be? Defiance? Youngstown? Or someplace in between??

 

Regulators approve Home Savings, First Federal Bank of the Midwest merger

 

Regulators have signed off on the merger of Youngstown's Home Savings Bank and its holding company with Defiance's First Federal Bank of the Midwest and its parent company, the organizations have announced.

 

That clears the way for the deal to close as expected Jan. 31.

 

New names for for the consolidated parent company and the commercial bank brand itself will come out closer to midyear. Each entity will retain its current moniker until then.

 

First Defiance Financial Corp., the Defiance-based parent company of First Federal Bank of the Midwest, announced its acquisition of United Community Financial Corp., the Youngstown-based holding company of Home Savings Bank, last Sept. 9.

 

Per terms of the deal — which has been billed as a "merger of equals" and is, frankly, about as close to that as it gets — shareholders of UCFC will receive 0.3715 shares of First Defiance stock for each share of UCFC stock.

 

MORE
https://www.crainscleveland.com/finance/regulators-approve-home-savings-first-federal-bank-midwest-merger

Edited January 21, 20205 yr by KJP

Statewide perspective here. Rural/small-town hospitals closing. Crappy internet in rural/small-town Ohio/USA. Jobs and residents leaving for the cities. This is sounds like an expansion of the Fifth Migration -- it's not just the Millennials and the empty-nesters moving to the cities.......

 

 

This is a trend that has been fairly obvious (to me at least) for quite some time now. It continues to surprise me that none of the local media mentions it though, especially when they report on Ohio's continued sub-par job growth. The reporting makes it seem like its doom and gloom across the board, which does nothing but self-harm to places like Cleveland by perpetuating the narrative of continued decline. The three Cs are booming. Maybe not at sunbelt levels, but compared to other Midwest/NE cities, and historically, the job growth we have been seeing year over year is not bad. The rural areas and small towns are bleeding jobs though - so much so that some months the state growth has been negative, even when the cities have all posted strong positive growth. 

It's a big reason why we're seeing more rural and exurban Ohioans now calling home in places like Ohio City, Tremont, University Circle, Clintonville, Short North, German Village, Clifton, OTR and of course the downtowns of the Big 3Cs. This a broader part of the Fifth Migration that many had limited merely to Millennials and to a lesser extent Empty Nesters.

 

In fact, I would love to interview people who have moved from rural and exurban Ohio (ie: Medina, Delaware, Lebanon, etc) to the 3Cs (or perhaps to one of their streetcar suburbs) for my blog. Feel free to give me a shout here with a personal message.

^I’m gonna stereotype hugely here, but just tonight I was walking down Euclid on my way to Heinens and coming the other way were a couple returning from the store, who looked more, let’s say, ‘rural’; Camo baseball cap, Carhartt hoodies, Timberland boots etc. I just assumed they were staying at the Crown Plaza and getting some provisions to save on room service (I did say I was gonna stereotype!) However, they stopped short of the hotel and scanned themselves into the Halle apartment building. 
This isn’t the first time recently that I’ve seen folks downtown who seemed not to be ‘typical’ residents, but are. 
It’s all good BTW. Anyone who isn’t a hipster is OK with me ?

22 hours ago, roman totale XVII said:

^I’m gonna stereotype hugely here, but just tonight I was walking down Euclid on my way to Heinens and coming the other way were a couple returning from the store, who looked more, let’s say, ‘rural’; Camo baseball cap, Carhartt hoodies, Timberland boots etc. I just assumed they were staying at the Crown Plaza and getting some provisions to save on room service (I did say I was gonna stereotype!) However, they stopped short of the hotel and scanned themselves into the Halle apartment building. 
This isn’t the first time recently that I’ve seen folks downtown who seemed not to be ‘typical’ residents, but are. 
It’s all good BTW. Anyone who isn’t a hipster is OK with me ?

I would bet that was an AirBnB couple spending an evening or two in the city, not renters. 

^ Could be, although I’m fairly sure K&D don’t let renters AirB&B their units. Not that that may stop someone of course!