Hey all, I got into this discussion a few months back while perusing the Project for Public Spaces archives.  They have lots of good things to say about Cleveland and their site is worth checking out, but there's an incisive feature on public spaces that sit in their "Hall of Shame" and Public Square is one of them!

 

Check out the page at http://www.pps.org/gps/one?public_place_id=759 and post your comments here and at their site.  As of today, it looks like I'm the only one who's posted a response on their site!  Be heard!

 

I know there are tons of great images out there, but I'll start with these four from their site:

Ohio, in general, has grand public squares yet lacks the pedestrian friendliness of the purpose.  Cincinnati's Fountain Square, while probably the best and most used space in the state, is still in different topographic levels, isn't a friendly space due to the lack of vegetation and the surrounding atmosphere (re: corporate).  Public Square, while originally interesting, is atrocious in terms of space, pedestrian movement, and landscape overall.  Capitol Square in Columbus is abysmal (sorry, it is) and Courthouse Square in Dayton was once very vibrant, now is used nothing more to shelter the inner-city folks from the Third/Main transit area.

 

We need to do better in all our spaces.

I think ~some~ stuff is getting done when they are doing the BRT project. Like exclusive lanes around the square and some curb improvements. Yes, I agree the square has too wide of traffic lanes going around and through it to make it accessable to pedestrians. Soon as you hit 6 lanes wide, it become inheriently unfriendly to pedestrian use, not fun to run accross the street to get there.  On top of that there isnt much of anyone there because the building around it arent being used fully, we got 2 empty department stores and a substandard mall there, as a result there isn't a critical mass of people just flowing around the area to even mak use of it.

Quoting  Shin-pei Tsay, person who posted Public Square on the 'Hall of Shame':

"The roads that carve up this downtown square make it nearly impossible to reach by foot, squandering its prime location."

 

Nearly impossible? B!tch, please - talk about a drama queen. Are the streets on the wide side? Sure like most major avenues in any Great Lakes city's central business district, and I think taking a lane out would make the area more pedestrian friendly but it's not as if you can't cross Superior, Ontario, or the Roadways in a single lightchange. Sometimes it's not even that with the islands on Superior. Ohhh, that's right - some people equate 'pedestrian friendly' with being able to freely wander into the street and be oblivious to vehicular traffic. This is not some charming little urban neighborhood, folks - this is the center of downtown Cleveland's business district. Close off Public Square to traffic? Grrreat idea - see how that worked for Youngstown a few decades ago :roll: Each quadrant is easy to navigate diagonally *or* around and like I said - one lightchange and you're on your way.

 

As someone who worked in Key Tower (127 Public Square) for over two years and has spent the better part of a decade working in downtown Cleveland - I can say that Public Square could be better but to say that it's "nearly impossible to reach by foot"? Maybe if you're completely crippled :roll: (no offense to any of our disabled friends).

 

damn cars, they seem to ruin everything.

sidney is the only ohio city i've seen with a public square, that isnt just a waste of space...

you know what public square needs?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

an AU BON PAIN!

Isn't there one in the BP Building!??!?

Isn't there one in the BP Building!??!?

 

I think you missed my point/joke

No, I got it.  Campus Martius.  But I think you missed my QUESTION.

No, I got it. Campus Martius. But I think you missed my QUESTION.

 

we don't have a BP building..................FACE!

I like the initial response to this post...with maybe an exception or two that consist primarily of flirtation between two posters who will go unnamed...(just playin, guys!)  And I agree with MayDay's refusal to accept the comment about the Square being hard to reach by foot.  I don't know if any of you read my response on PPS, but I feel that there are definite positives to this being a four-quadrant square, although I can see advantages to melding them into one big square...  Of the positives, I believe that the keys are found in the differences in feel and programming at each square.  There could obviously be more programming to take advantage of the separation and who knows, maybe there is since I've been there, but for example, we have ONE BIG BLOWOUT every year on the 4th of July when they close the whole thing down and bring in the Orchestra.  That, my friends, is amazing.  Otherwise, you've got ice skating on one quadrant...a fountain or two, some statues, some pigeons, benches, grass and trees.  Each quadrant has its own allure and I wouldn't necessarily change a thing! 

 

Does everyone feel that they are used well enough...in sheer number of people? 

 

What types of programming do we have for the Squares?

do they still do ice skating?

 

i feel like i haven't seen that in years....

 

maybe campbell should do some speeches out there or something get people there.........also the surround parking blocks  don't help at all either

No, they haven't used the square for ice skating for a few years.

 

Honestly, the most used quadrant is by far the one adjacent to Tower City Center. It's where people protest, and in good weather they have plenty of concerts/events. It's also the least "green", interestingly enough.

 

The quadrant with Soldiers and Sailors - well, there's a monument there but I see people routinely either checking out the monument or having lunch, etc. I think it's fine as is.

 

The northern quadrants are the worst as far as lack of use. The one in front of Key Tower needs a serious overhaul - right now it serves two purposes - to give the homeless a place to congregate (because the overgrown and too short trees make them hidden from the street), and for people to get from Key Tower to Tower City Center. If ever there was a place for KeyBank to do a little investing in their own turf - it's there. Get rid of the trees, the circular fountain which doesn't work half the time, and step up the anti-panhandling patrols. Not a single person I knew at Key actually used the quadrant other than to get through it, quickly.

 

The quadrant in front of 55/75 Public Square is home to pigeons and homeless people whenever some church group doles out soup. The southern sidewalk is almost always filled with people - whether crossing Superior or waiting for a bus. Other than the statue of former Mayor Tom Johnson, there's not much other than a patch of grass - a dying one at that. I don't know what I would do here. It doesn't help that as pope pointed out - there's a parking lot where a 1198' tower was supposed to be.

yes, to this day, that parking lot is one of the things in Cleveland that depresses me the most!  As much as I question the need of another gigantic office tower in Cleveland, it would've been pretty sweet, right?

 

I'm hoping for something a little smaller there when it actually happens (please let it be soon!)...something like, say, what was there before they leveled it for a parking lot?  No more than 20 stories, or it can go higher, but with setbacks so that we don't have a total eclipse on the Square...hotel or high end residential with big time retail on the street...or a combination of hotel, residential and office with the first two floors (at least) being retail.  Take the new Time Warner Center in NYC at Columbus Circle as an example...prime piece o' real estate, developed extremely well with all uses included...and some swanky retail, institutional uses on the first four floors...niiiiice.

yeah at least TWC has a grocery store....

And the entire population of Downtown Cleveland living upstairs!  Seriously...that building is a city unto itself.

And the entire population of Downtown Cleveland living upstairs! Seriously...that building is a city unto itself.

 

well only if you wanna wear A/X and j. crew the rest of your life

how could he say its not pedestrian friendly? did he even look at the photos on that site? i see see a bus lineup, but almost no cars! ditto maydays photo. access is easy!

 

i say leave it alone. build up what is around it and it will get more public use naturally. and the clientele will change as well. worry about tweaking and changes later. i always liked the square, i still think its cool.

 

 

Bear in mind when I say this that I don't necessarily know what I'm talking about, having been to Cleveland exactly once in recent memory (I know, I know... I'll get back there soon, I promise), but when walking around Public Square I recall pretty much no feeling that I was in any sort of grand public space.  It just felt like a few little plazas.  I like the idea of the four different quadrants, but they do seem a little too separate to me.  Not that I have any suggestions for what would make it better.

Public Square works great in setting off the Terminal Tower....the quadrant closets to the TT is sort of like the "front yard" for it...mainly becuase the masss of the bulidng sort of enframes and defines that quadrant.  The other ones are sort of "loose". 

 

If there was a solid line of fairly massive buildings around it it would read more like a traditional European square, but at a huge scale.

 

But then again the wasn't the orginal plan, was it?  Wasn't the original concept for Public Square a "villiage green" or "commons" like it the other Western Reserve towns?  If so thats long gone.  That type of space is more naturalistic or parklike.  I guess the square in Elyria would be an example...from the pix Ive seen it looks like a wooeded park?

 

Was the "four quadrants" in the original plan, or did that happen later? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't know if there are any there or not, but places for people to eat during their lunch break would be nice. It works really well here in our market square, mind you, the streets that cut it into quadrants are tiny compared to the ones there, but still. It they've got seating for office workers, they'll probably settle there on their lunch break.

 

Unless of course, there are already tables, and I didn't realize it everytime I've driven through.

This may be in the realm of fantasy, but it would be cool to bury Ontario and Superior as they go through Public Square.  That would make it one contiguous square.  Leave the Roadway at ground level, so no work would need to be done to entrances on structures surrounding the Square.

Aaron - you have good suggestions, however downtown has an abundance of 'sit and eat' public spots other than Public Square. As it is right now, Public Square (other than the Soldiers and Sailors monument) is too 'open' and busy to really be an ideal lunch spot. Not only that, but as you can see in some of the pics, the 'rats with wings' are a nuisance (I'm against most forms of animal cruelty but those vermin deserve electrified nets).

 

Jeff, Public Square did start as a center of town and the four quadrants were part of the plan. However, at that time - most people used the square for livestock to graze or retrieve water from the well. My how things have changed!

 

I honestly think that if a major structure was built on *that* parking lot, a lot of issues would be resolved. As it stands there's little reason to cross over the northwestern quadrant - but if there was a tower (office or mixed-use) of significance, that would change foot traffic patterns drastically.

 

I do think taking a lane off of Ontario or Superior would do wonders.

Frank, That has actually been suggested before.  Don't wait for it to happen.

 

Jeff, The four quadrants are original, although it has vacilated back and forth, with business interests always favoring division, and civic interests always favoring consolidation.  The more things change.....

 

I think that they should divert traffic from the Public Square area as much as is possible and then narrow the streets and repave them with brick or cobblestone to slow traffic and let people know that they are entering an important place, not one to be whizzed through at 50 mph.  Kind of a compromise, I guess.  And I would look into if we really need the "ring" road that seperates the square from the buildings fronting it.  Euclid seems obviously vital.  But the rest?

X, I like your comments.  I think the burying of the major thoroughfares is a pipe dream...I just don't think it would ever happen.  Alternatives like new, traffic calming paving sound great and very practical.  People are going to get where they're going either way and they often get stuck at the lights at some point through the Square, so why not add some character (and some safety) with cobblestone/brick?  And it would mark it as an important place to note as you're passing through.  Great ideas...and so simple! 

 

The ring road's necessity I've never actually thought about, but that's interesting too.  Unfortunately, I think there are a lot of bus routes that take that road.  And these roads move pretty slowly and are avoided by the average driver anyways.  Still interesting to think about.

The outer roads will be used by BRT to circle around and go back up toward UC.  I would like the four quadrants to be connected, but I am not sure how that would effect the traffic patterns. I would guess that it would create a mess.

The mural in the public library gives a glimpse of Public Square in the early years, as MayDay described it:

 

Was there really a pond there, or did the artist spruce up the place to make a prettier picture?

Combining the quadrants and recreating  the early century setting would be sweet!  :clap:

 

the early century ponds and fountains are awesome!

Thanks for those great postcard images KJP!  What a collection!  I'm particularly taken by the ones from 1907-1910 with the fountain and the pond.  This was, of course, a different era for Downtown, what with mansions just down the street.  The images with the pond make it look more like Boston Commons than the Public Square we know today, although PS was probably created to serve the same function as BC...Western Reserve and all that.  And I'll take today's version over the 1970s and 1980s version any day!

The pond, bridge and fountains were actually there. The postcards were only colorized, and their content unchanged. Here's how one of those postcards looked like in its original black-and-white....

 

 

 

Also, here's a couple that I missed....

 

 

 

And a close-up of one of the Comfort Stations in front of a nearly finished Terminal Tower, in 1927

 

 

KJP

Vegetation does ALOT to enhance public spaces.  It's almost essential, minus a few exceptions (re: Times Square).

The physical size of the square has never changed, its the volume of use surrounding the square that has. Old picures.. not croweded, not many cars, and use of street cars.

 

Here is a pie-in-the-sky idea

 

1)Brick/cobblestone public square area

2)take lanes off superior ontario, to narrow them

3) Run light rail line from E. 18 via rockwell/frankfort to W. 9

4) Run light rail connecting to theroretical west shore trolley starting at detroit-superior bridge

Its amazing what a difference closing in that Ameritrust corner makes.  It really turns Public Square into an outdoor room.

Smakem, I like that rail idea...where'd you come up with it?  Just a personal fancy or has this been proposed somewhere?  Also, where'd you get those high resolution aerial photos?

 

on the subject...

 

I know I'm always boasting about Portland, Oregon, but really, there are lots of examples we can take from them to try to fgure out how to make these ideas work.  For example, they installed a new streetcar line (old notion, new cars) in 2001 that has been highly successful.  It helped a new residential neighborhood spring up out of a gigantic brownfield site on the northern end of downtown and has the potential to expand further through downtown and do the same on the south end.  I need to find out more about how they financed it, but it's very unintrusive and attractive and shares a right-of-way with automobiles. 

 

This is a separate line and operator than their acclaimed MAX light rail lines, but the MAX offers a connection to Smakem's proposal with its route through Downtown and its central station is on their "public square," which is Pioneer Square.  The square is vibrant and really serves its many functions very well, from concerts to transit hub to hang out spot.  Again, the MAX is very unintrusive, very handsome, and has spurred new development (TOD) all along its route...both downtown and in outlying neighborhoods.  It has helped Portland build density within the Urban Growth Boundary without increasing automobile traffic to unmanageable levels.

 

I would LOVE to see something like this happen in Cleveland, but I feel like voters have shot rail down at every turn and we may be destined to dreams of BRT!

The map is City Planning Commission's Interactive Map of Cleveland, its right on the main page of the city of clevelands website. Just click on layer control, to see aerial, zones, roads...etc. As to the origins of the rail line... Its just a line I came up with, nothing official anywhere. I just took what is a road that was bound by 2 major roads, and drew a line through it. It seemed like it would connect with a threroetical west shore trolley, so that was a bonus. It went through alot of parking lots, so hopefuly that would encourage TOD and redevelopment of those lots, worst case scenario people ride the line to park and travel accross town. It would work with the area that is being developed on E. 12. From E. 18, it could be run north to the waterfront line, or south to the trainsit center planned near the CSU convocation center

Which is more what you're thinking of?

 

By the way, I've just found out that the Portland Streetcar's (the first image) expansion is moving forward quite rapidly with the newest extension opening next week.

 

The MAX light rail expanded in 2001 (to the airport) and in 2004 with a whole new (yellow) line.  This was finished 4 months ahead of schedule and under budget!

I forgot all about the Ameritrust Building on public square.  When did they tear that down?

 

The old Ameritrust complex (formerly the Marshall and American Trust buildings, or 1 and 33 Public Square) was demolished in the late 1980s to make way for Ameritrust Center which as we know, never materialized because of the Society/Ameritrust merger.

 

Here's a view showing the demolition on the right, and Key Tower going up on the left:

 

 

I can't believe 4 people actually voted in favor of paving it for parking...that was supposed to be a joke...fools!

 

I am a big subscriber to the theory that city-provided greenspaces, which can be achieved with the help of numerous non-profit organizations (I work for one, so I should know!), can spur economic development.  That being said, we have a great example around Public Square of the highest density structures in all of Ohio, built over 60 years around public open space.  We have one block left surrounding the square that is just itching to get built-upon and was damn near built in the 90s.  We have our Group Plan structures around the malls (a-c) and high density office and residential around cozy Perk Park on East 12th.

 

So, with all this talk of new building around Downtown, I haven't heard open space mentioned ONCE!  I know there's a new Wi-Fi Plaza at East 9th and Prospect/Huron, but that won't spur new construction and isn't much space anyways.  How about a block on the east side, near the new Chinatown developments?  How about something else east of 12th, but west of the inner belt where Cleveland State is growing (high teens, low 20s), warehouses are being turned into housing, the PD's new headquarters stands, and new development is proposed along Superior, St. Clair, and Chester around East 12th and 14th?

 

Lakefront open space could take decades to procure and the river is too far west to adequately serve these locations.  In addition, CSU might built ballfields and such, but will they be open to the public?  If they build plazas, yes, but open GREEN spaces, probably not.  These are things I'm thinking about and I know you are too!

 

 

sorta on the subject, but also bringing up an interesting topic:

 

http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/1114342286101500.xml

 

this article speaks to the opportunity for local businesses and non-profits to support community spaces in their own neighborhoods.  I'm working with two non-profits right now that advocate for this sort of thing, so I know there's money out there that can be directed towards projects like these!

Here's the link.  I moved your post over there:

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=6560.0

 

yes, to this day, that parking lot is one of the things in Cleveland that depresses me the most!  As much as I question the need of another gigantic office tower in Cleveland, it would've been pretty sweet, right?

 

I'm hoping for something a little smaller there when it actually happens (please let it be soon!)...something like, say, what was there before they leveled it for a parking lot?  No more than 20 stories, or it can go higher, but with setbacks so that we don't have a total eclipse on the Square...hotel or high end residential with big time retail on the street...or a combination of hotel, residential and office with the first two floors (at least) being retail.  Take the new Time Warner Center in NYC at Columbus Circle as an example...prime piece o' real estate, developed extremely well with all uses included...and some swanky retail, institutional uses on the first four floors...niiiiice.

 

If you only knew what we had to do to get this "prime piece" of real estate.  but as many folks don't know.  over half the north tower is vacant!  We could have stayed in our just renovated office at 75 Rock!