The Enquirer has finally gotten around to covering a story that has been long discussed amongst planners and demographers alike.  Here is their main story...

 

Coming soon: Cinci-Dayton?

Will expansion bring growth - or gridlock?

BY JENNIFER BAKER & MIKE BOYER | March 11, 2007

 

This 17-mile stretch of highway is where Cincinnati and Dayton will finally come together.  Farmlands along Interstate 75 are being replaced by an explosion of shopping plazas, hospitals, homes, schools, offices and distribution centers.

 

Planners have long predicted that someday the outskirts of Cincinnati and Dayton would merge, much like Dallas-Fort Worth. That "someday" appears close.  Experts predict the resulting megalopolis of about 3 million people would count as the nation's 15th-largest market.  Priming the pump will be hundreds of millions of dollars to be invested in four major exits:

 

• The Liberty interchange will open hundreds of acres for commercial development.

• A bigger Monroe exit will pave the way for an $80 million outlet mall and an industrial park that could employ 7,000.

• In struggling Middletown, a rebuilt exit could spark renewal.

• Closer to Dayton, leaders say a new exit will transform the "Austin Centre" area into a high-tech commercial zone.

 

So, are we ready to think Cincinnati-Dayton?

 

Read full article here:

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070311/BIZ01/703110340

Coming soon: Cinci-Dayton?

Will expansion bring growth - or gridlock?

 

gridlock

I like the name cindaynati

There were also 4 more detailed stories about the 4 interchange projects along I-75:

Monroe interchange

Middletown interchange

Austin Rd. interchange

Liberty interchange

 

And finally a piece about where people say they are from within with 'inbetween' area:

Where do you say you're from?

At Union Centre Boulevard, much as the Emerald City rose on the horizon and beckoned to Dorothy and her friends in "The Wizard of Oz," the shiny new community of West Chester Township literally has sprouted before our eyes. And that's even before Ikea opens next year.

 

Whatever.  This is probably the hokiest thing the POS Enquirer has ever printed.

Since this decision is based primarily off of commuting patterns...you would think that it would send off a signal that mass transportation within the megalopolis would be fitting.  I think that rail connecting all of the major employment centers in the megalopolis is key:

 

CVG Airport

Downtown Cincy

GE Aviation/Springdale

West Chester

Hamilton/Middletown

Dayton's Tech Areas

Downtown Dayton

Wright Patterson AFB

 

These are primarily along the I-75 corridor, and obviously places like Blue Ash and others should be included with other rail lines.

Coming soon: Cinci-Dayton?

Will expansion bring growth - or gridlock?

 

gridlock

 

Well it will bring both growth and gridlock...whereas having rail transit in place would bring growth, and lesser congestion.  There is a piece to this puzzle that we are missing...and guess what no mention of inter-city rail connections once in these articles.  But hey 4 improved intersections!!!!

the cost of the four intersections is something like 350-450 million.  that would give us a pretty decent streetcar system in cincinnati dayton and nky

I didn't know the new intercahnge in Monroe is going to be a SPUI.

Imagine a high-speed rail system between Cinci-Dayton-Columbus - the actual distance is roughly the same as between the furthest reaches of Chicago's suburbs.  I'm sure that has been covered on this forum in the past, but it makes total sense since there are so many people that live in/near one of those three cities but work in another.  It is too bad our state (and these three cities) can't think THAT regionally...  But going back to the Cinci-Dayton merge question, I agree with the rest of you - without inter-city rail, it would just mean more gridlock. 

 

The question of what city people from the middle typically identify themselves with is interesting, and the answers were what I expected.  The sad thing is, even people from the obvious suburbs of Dayton (Springboro and Centerville) have a hard time claiming Dayton as their home city.  A sign of how emotionally disconnected Dayton's suburbs are from the city.

 

The article mentions Dallas-Fort Worth as an example for Cinci-Dayton, but from what I've heard about that region, it has some of the worst sprawl in the country.  Do you think that having two seperate city centers at opposite sides of a metro region causes more or less sprawl than having one big central center?    I would think that it just leads to more sprawl/development in the middle (which is where it is headed anyway), and ultimately dilutes the entire region's identity.

 

 

^Central center - you may start commencing with the redundancy comments  :drunk:

:( I saw this in the Herald-Dispatch but Rando beat me to it.

 

A light rail system down the median would be _ideal_. Add in transit stops at the traditional "park and ride" lots, similar to systems in the metro D.C. area, and it would be nice.

Some people are commenting that all this will do is facilitate more sprawl, but I would say that the sprawl would take place with or without this action.  I think that this is a tremendous step in the right direction.  This will lead to 1 MPO for the Cincinnati-Dayton region instead of the 2 that currently exist.

 

This eliminates some bureaucracy from the process in transportation projects.  If say OKI wanted to do rail transit to Dayton (MVRPC region) then OKI would have to coordinate with MVRPC.  Having just 1 MPO will help in those processes and force the region to think in a more regional approach when it comes to transportation funding.  I say that is a big positive!!!

Here is the website of the District 8 (Hamilton, Butler, Warren, Greene, Clermont, Preble and Clinton Counties) Public Involvement Meeting Schedule http://www.dot.state.oh.us/dist8/planning/PI%20meetings.htm. It has meeting times and locations, along with PDFs of some projects, including the Monroe SPUI. The Monroe overpass and the piers were widened, along with an increase in height. The SPUI should be started in 2008 with the widening project. I would suspect a SPUI would be built at the Western Hills Viaduct with the Brent Spence Bridge Project. As far as rail, I would absolutely love to see it, but will I, who knows. I am 20 right now, so if I still live around here in 20 years, I still won't expect to see it!

At Union Centre Boulevard, much as the Emerald City rose on the horizon and beckoned to Dorothy and her friends in "The Wizard of Oz," the shiny new community of West Chester Township literally has sprouted before our eyes. And that's even before Ikea opens next year.

 

Whatever.  This is probably the hokiest thing the POS Enquirer has ever printed.

 

Good lord, I somehow missed this comment.  That comment is obviously from a West Chester resident.  Hokie is putting it kindly.  I have a few other choice words for it.

That comment was actually made by Cliff Peale the writer of the story.  I'm not sure where he lives.

At Union Centre Boulevard, much as the Emerald City rose on the horizon and beckoned to Dorothy and her friends in "The Wizard of Oz," the shiny new community of West Chester Township literally has sprouted before our eyes. And that's even before Ikea opens next year.

 

WOW we are talking about a bunch of stripmalls

I like the name cindaynati

 

How about Daytonnati?

Daytonatti works better phonetically, sounds better.  It also incorporates the unique aspect of Cincinatti's name, which is that Latin plural form.  And it has about the same amount of letters for each city.

 

The problem for Cincinnati boosters is it doesn't put "Cincinnati" first...which is really the whole point of this exericse...a way to boost Cincinnati metro area numbers to make it appear bigger than it is. 

 

Other than a way to pad stats, Dayton is irrelevant to Cincinnati boosters.  

At Union Centre Boulevard, much as the Emerald City rose on the horizon and beckoned to Dorothy and her friends in "The Wizard of Oz," the shiny new community of West Chester Township literally has sprouted before our eyes. And that's even before Ikea opens next year.

 

When Union Centre starts to grow some suburban high rises like Dublin or Troy he can call it an Emerald City.  It aint there yet.

 

 

Daytonatti works better phonetically, sounds better.  It also incorporates the unique aspect of Cincinatti's name, which is that Latin plural form.  And it has about the same amount of letters for each city.

 

The problem for Cincinnati boosters is it doesn't put "Cincinnati" first...which is really the whole point of this exericse...a way to boost Cincinnati metro area numbers to make it appear bigger than it is. 

 

Other than a way to pad stats, Dayton is irrelevant to Cincinnati boosters.

 

Just as a clarification there will be no name change for the region...no municipalities are actually forming into one large municipality.  It is just the classification of Cincinnati and Dayton as one metropolitan area.  But with that said it will be refered to as Cincinnati-Dayton or CIN-DAY or Cinci-Dayton whatever, but Cincinnati will go first because it is the larger of the two cities.  Much like Dallas-Ft. Worth; Dallas is larger hence its name going first.

 

Cincinnati boosters also have very little to do with this process.  This is a process being overseen by the Census Bereau, and they are basing this off of a variety of components...with the main one being commuting patterns.

 

Cincinnati does/should care about Dayton's health and vice versa...if one struggles the other feels the pain as well.  The two cities are clearly two cities, but are part of one metro area.  I do consider Hamilton and Middletown their own cities, but they are surely part of the Cincy metro and soon to be Cincinnati-Dayton Metro.

Daytonatti works better phonetically, sounds better.  It also incorporates the unique aspect of Cincinatti's name, which is that Latin plural form.  And it has about the same amount of letters for each city.

 

The problem for Cincinnati boosters is it doesn't put "Cincinnati" first...which is really the whole point of this exericse...a way to boost Cincinnati metro area numbers to make it appear bigger than it is. 

 

Other than a way to pad stats, Dayton is irrelevant to Cincinnati boosters.  

 

Amen, Amen, and Amen.  Preach it.

 

But I'm with Randy as well in the sense that Cincinnati and Dayton should care about each other's health.  It's a pity that both are quite ignorant about each other, unlike Akron and Cleveland.

Daytonatti works better phonetically, sounds better.  It also incorporates the unique aspect of Cincinatti's name, which is that Latin plural form.  And it has about the same amount of letters for each city.

 

Not quite...Dayton / nati

 

And on top of all of that the entire name of Dayton is in the name with only the ending to Cincinnati.

 

Why not just write it like this then...

 

Daytonnati

 

But like I said...it is a irrelevant point.  No ones name is changing...just adding a hyphen.  Think of it like Cincinnati and Dayton getting married, but both want to keep their name...hence the hyphen!

Notice he said "about" the same amount.  Dayto-nati

 

5 isn't all that much more than 4.

 

Back to the subject.

Coming soon: Cinci-Dayton?

Will expansion bring growth - or gridlock?

 

gridlock

 

Well it will bring both growth and gridlock...whereas having rail transit in place would bring growth, and lesser congestion.  There is a piece to this puzzle that we are missing...and guess what no mention of inter-city rail connections once in these articles.  But hey 4 improved intersections!!!!

 

 

Rando not to nitpick but only two interchanges in the story currently exist - Monroe Exit 29 and Middletown Exit 32.  The two new interchanges...Austin Road south of Dayton and Liberty IMO will simply increase congestion along I75 and any development would likely be at the expense of someplace else i.e. Dayton or Cincinnati.   

 

^Sorry...new/improved interchanges.  But the substance of my comment still stands!

The sad thing is, even people from the obvious suburbs of Dayton (Springboro and Centerville) have a hard time claiming Dayton as their home city.  A sign of how emotionally disconnected Dayton's suburbs are from the city.

 

The Enquirer is fairly easy to get in the south suburbs. I think people down here read it as an alternative to the Dayton Daily News.

 

 

Here is a map of the US with its metro areas (Census).  Zoom into Cincinnati and Dayton areas and look at the urban form that has taken place.  The shaded areas shows an "Urbanized Area or Urban Cluster with a population of 10,000 or more in 2000"

http://ftp2.census.gov/geo/maps/metroarea/us_wall/Nov2004/cbsa_us_1104.pdf

 

There is just about no gap left in between the two metros (not saying this is good or bad...its just a fact).

 

On the new map a dotted line will be the new feature which delineates a "Metropolitan Division".  This is what Dallas-Ft. Worth has; the two cities are 1 metropolitan area but they are still their own divisions within the metro area.

what about this, the cincinnati post merges with the Dayton daily news and challenges the enquirer to be the first paper to serve the entire metro area.

Not a bad idea...

Not to beat an unwanted horse, but the "Dayto-" in "Daytonnati" is balanced by the natural accent on the third syllable ("nat"), easily giving the "-nnati" half of the name parity with the first. Further, the schwa pronunciation of the "o" in "Daytonnati" is phonically identical to the middle "i" in "Cincinnati," essentially negating the bare "Dayton" advantage. Letter-counting aside, we will be hard-pressed to find as pure a liguistic blend as "Daytonnati."

 

I rest my case.

Cinton.

 

The only question left is which offramp will be the new downtown.

That would be The Greene vs. The Streets of West Chester for all to decide.

The Dayton-Cincinnati Daily Post  in dayton (a Post/ Daily News merger)  The cincinnati distributed version would have the names switched.

Or how about the "The Valley Daily Post?"

 

It's ambiguous enough for the Ohio Valley and Miami Valley and includes everyone in a freakin' valley (take THAT, Preble County!).

^I do really like the idea of a paper that covers the entire Cincinnati-Dayton region.  I do think that a name like ColDayMan mentioned would be best!  Give it a regional name for the area...that would be pretty cool!

dayton daily news has 160k circulation, the enquirer has about 300k the post has about 35k.  if the Dayton Cincinnati Daily Post picks up half of the current post subscribers that would up circulation by about 10%.  They would also be in a position to pick up enquirer subscribers in the way north suburbs and possibly gain traction in the urban core where people just can't stand the enquirer's right wing slant.

 

Additionally, if the cin-day megalopolis forms, dayton will be playing second fiddle.  its a question of numbers, we have more.  but if dayton takes the lead now and has the only metro paper, they can have a much more equal voice and be in a better position to be peers with cincinnati in the megalopis

I say we just call the new metro: "Cincinnati" ...

 

Sounds good to me. ;)

what about this, the cincinnati post merges with the Dayton daily news and challenges the enquirer to be the first paper to serve the entire metro area.

 

Wow, I said those exact words last week on another website.

dayton daily news has 160k circulation, the enquirer has about 300k the post has about 35k.  if the Dayton Cincinnati Daily Post picks up half of the current post subscribers that would up circulation by about 10%.  They would also be in a position to pick up enquirer subscribers in the way north suburbs and possibly gain traction in the urban core where people just can't stand the enquirer's right wing slant.

 

Additionally, if the cin-day megalopolis forms, dayton will be playing second fiddle.  its a question of numbers, we have more.  but if dayton takes the lead now and has the only metro paper, they can have a much more equal voice and be in a better position to be peers with cincinnati in the megalopis

 

It isn't that easy.  The Dayton Daily News is a left leaning paper and the Cincinnati Enquirer is a right wing piece of fecal matter.

^Yes but he was suggesting that the DDN and the Cincinnati Post merge together...not the Enquirer.  The Post is certainly not as right-winged crazy as the Enquirer.

The DDN is owned by Cox Publishing (based in Atlanta).  I don't know who owns the Post or Enquirer, but unless those are owned by Cox also, then a media merger like you're suggesting is as unlikely as a Cin-Day merger.

gannet owns the enquirerer, but Cox and the DDN could carve out some market share with a merger

what about this, the cincinnati post merges with the Dayton daily news and challenges the enquirer to be the first paper to serve the entire metro area.

 

Wow, I said those exact words last week on another website.

 

I didn't steal it from you, it sprung from my mind fully formed much like athena from Zeus.

I agree that there are some positives that can come from this - in that we will have a larger metro with more federal clout.  I have always had a hope that:

1) We would get a rail line between the two cities for better unity

2) Butler and Warren fill up fast due to oversized lots, warehouses, and lifestyle centers and their populations peak at 400-500 thousand in 20 years (since this sprawl is already happening anyway)

3) Due to those counties filling up, development and redevelopment are pushed back into Montgomery and Hamilton county because people are not going to go any further beyond the top and bottom of the metroplex

 

This is probably wishful thinking, but anything is possible.

 

Some people are commenting that all this will do is facilitate more sprawl, but I would say that the sprawl would take place with or without this action.  I think that this is a tremendous step in the right direction.  This will lead to 1 MPO for the Cincinnati-Dayton region instead of the 2 that currently exist.

 

This eliminates some bureaucracy from the process in transportation projects.  If say OKI wanted to do rail transit to Dayton (MVRPC region) then OKI would have to coordinate with MVRPC.  Having just 1 MPO will help in those processes and force the region to think in a more regional approach when it comes to transportation funding.  I say that is a big positive!!!

2) Butler and Warren fill up fast due to oversized lots, warehouses, and lifestyle centers and their populations peak at 400-500 thousand in 20 years (since this sprawl is already happening anyway)

 

 

Prepare for some hostile people to reply after that quote. I know it happens to me EVERYTIME.

^Yes but he was suggesting that the DDN and the Cincinnati Post merge together...not the Enquirer.  The Post is certainly not as right-winged crazy as the Enquirer.

 

Yes I understand that.  My comment was a reply to this post: 

 

"They would also be in a position to pick up enquirer subscribers in the way north suburbs and possibly gain traction in the urban core where people just can't stand the enquirer's right wing slant." 

 

People in the northern burbs of Cincinnati are more conservative and would not embrace the Dayton Daily News if they were not already in that market. 

3) Due to those counties filling up, development and redevelopment are pushed back into Montgomery and Hamilton county because people are not going to go any further beyond the top and bottom of the metroplex

 

I disagree, there are certain businesses that only open businesses in sprawl.  The fact that the northern counties of Cincinnati would one day be built out wouldn't necessarily mean that the businesses that would have built there are now going to reinvest in the inner core.  Ohio ruined their chance for this by overturning the eminent domain case in Norwood.  Now all the inner ring towns can rot so self righteous Americans can keep their land instead of improving the community and rebranding the locality.  Now we have an even more blighted parcel of land at exit 7 while the businesses that were going to build there move elsewhere.

gannet owns the enquirer, but Cox and the DDN could carve out some market share with a merger

 

As Gannet (Also in the running to buy WKRC from C.C.) owns the Enquirer, E.W. Scripts owns the Post and Cox owns the Daily. At the end of this year, as many of you know, the Post will no longer exist. So, if Scripts and Cox can form a deal similar to what Gannet and Scripts had, we could see a Metro newspaper. How likely is it, I would say slim, as the newspapers are slowly dying to new forms of news, such as the UrbanOhios of the world. I would rather read the opinion of hundreds instead of a single person, it lets me know that not everyone worships our current leaders.

I agree that there are some positives that can come from this - in that we will have a larger metro with more federal clout.  I have always had a hope that:

1) We would get a rail line between the two cities for better unity

2) Butler and Warren fill up fast due to oversized lots, warehouses, and lifestyle centers and their populations peak at 400-500 thousand in 20 years (since this sprawl is already happening anyway)

3) Due to those counties filling up, development and redevelopment are pushed back into Montgomery and Hamilton county because people are not going to go any further beyond the top and bottom of the metroplex

 

These two statements are interesting.  There is one philosophy that says to build out before you build up (obviously within reason).  If this scenario were to play out as you say then I would be all for it.  But, I haven't seen that type of thing happen yet; at least without some sort of intervention (geography, growth boundary, etc).

 

Cincinnati (or any city for that matter) was not built to the density that exists today when it originally developed.  Now granted building patterns back in the day were still much more dense than we ever see in our modern 'burbs.  But they started off with smaller buildings with farther setbacks and what not...eventually decreasing lot sizes, setbacks and increasing height to accommodate more demand/growth.  Now once again this usually happened because land was limited (usually because of geographical features).  Today however, land is no longer naturally limited.  Hence the rationale behind a man-made limitation (urban growth boundary).  This would encourage the new wave of growth to replace the old with a more dense built environment.

 

Long story short...it could happen, but it is going to have to be a man-made intervention and the political leadership is going to have to bite the bullet and create an urban growth boundary if we want our region to head down this path.