If this happens we need to incorporate principles of Metropolitanism to ensure vitality of the whole region. I don't think sprawl is going to be stopped any time soon but there are better ways of dealing with it and making a better environment where cities, suburbs and exurbs co-exist. Even Andres Duany admits New Urbanism wont work for everybody (although there are certainly more people that would be living in cities if policies permitted it).

 

http://syracusethenandnow.org/NewUrbanism/Metropolitanism.htm

I guess I was looking for a silver lining to the sprawl.  Ideally, we would adopt the Portland model, but since that is not going to happen the hope is that development patterns eventually favor the core areas.  As monte points out, this got tougher in some cases with the eminent domain ruling, but it's all about location and I think the core counties have that going for them.  In many cases it will take the people to reinvest in their own property, and if they do not want live north of Piqua or south of Burlington, KY this could be an option.  Of course this is 20 years down the road and assuming we don't get a super loop around Cincinnati and Dayton, which could change things even more - this would be worst case but someone is going to float this idea.  Also, we do not know what the next trend will be, and maybe anti-sprawl ideas begin to gain traction as part of the effort to preserve the environment and save resources - even if it sounds ludicrous today.

 

These two statements are interesting.  There is one philosophy that says to build out before you build up (obviously within reason).  If this scenario were to play out as you say then I would be all for it.  But, I haven't seen that type of thing happen yet; at least without some sort of intervention (geography, growth boundary, etc).

 

Cincinnati (or any city for that matter) was not built to the density that exists today when it originally developed.  Now granted building patterns back in the day were still much more dense than we ever see in our modern 'burbs.  But they started off with smaller buildings with farther setbacks and what not...eventually decreasing lot sizes, setbacks and increasing height to accommodate more demand/growth.  Now once again this usually happened because land was limited (usually because of geographical features).  Today however, land is no longer naturally limited.  Hence the rationale behind a man-made limitation (urban growth boundary).  This would encourage the new wave of growth to replace the old with a more dense built environment.

 

Long story short...it could happen, but it is going to have to be a man-made intervention and the political leadership is going to have to bite the bullet and create an urban growth boundary if we want our region to head down this path.

Yes and unfortunately I have heard the idea for a second beltway around Cincy thrown out there  :x

 

I doubt this will gain any kind of momentum because there are much more pressing infrastructure needs in our region (sewer system upgrade) and our nation that will NEED to be addressed before a luxury project so to speak for a second beltway...I think we're safe on that front!

Sorry if this is straying off topic (since this is probably covered elsewhere), but check out <a href="http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070310/VIDEO/303100017">this video</a> of the Austin Road Interchange.  It is sad how the woman who is describing the project is talking about how businesses wanting to relocate there is such a good thing.  "We just love out-of-control-sprawl down here in the south suburbs!  The more land we can blacktop the better!".... pathetic!

 

If anybody is familiar with the north side of Indy (31 off of 465), that is what this Austin Road area will ultimately look like.  Nothing but business park after business park after generic strip mall after business park - with absolutely no regard to any kind of walkability or sustainability.  And all at the expense of our urban core.  Anybody ready to start a revolution?

 

Also, it looks like my friends at <a href="http://www.grassrootsdayton.org/">Grassroots Greater Dayton</a> have been looking at this thread...

 

 

Au$tin Road as critical spatial practice with a neomarxist spin.

 

 

 

 

When this happens. I'm sure the Cleveland-Akron-Canton area will also be combined. I don't think the combining of Chicago and Milwaukee will ever happen, unless it's one MSA connected by a Continuous urbanized area.

 

Boston and Providence have now formed a single CSA from just a few months ago. It makes one wonder how often they look at the numbers. If they looked at the Cincinnati-Dayton area and it didn't make the cut i would like to know how much more is needed to qualify?

Also, it looks like my friends at Grassroots Greater Dayton have been looking at this thread...

 

Why do you say that??  I didn't see any mention of UrbanOhio on their site...did I just miss it?

^ Just that a couple of their most recent posts discuss Cin-Day merger....

 

Interesting story to see in the Enquirer...especially in the editorial section.

 

City-to-city sprawl hurts quality of life

BY TIM MARA | GUEST COLUMNIST | March 18, 2007

 

The collection of March 11 Enquirer articles about the Cincinnati and Dayton metro areas growing toward each other barely mentioned the big question: How will this affect our quality of life?  Sadly, the focus was on the potential opportunities for developers and a handful of entrepreneurs to make more money. Lost in the hype about the new interchanges on Interstate 75 and the megaprojects at those interchanges was any meaningful assessment of the impact on you and me and on future generations.

 

One word describes the coming megalopolis: sprawl. Southwest Ohio is not an area of rapidly growing population, but it is an area of rapidly shifting population patterns. As farmland in the area between Cincinnati and Dayton is bulldozed for large tracts of houses and huge condo complexes - as well as a new succession of disposable shopping centers - the central city and its older rings of suburbs are dwindling, increasingly inhabited by the elderly, the poor, the very rich, and a relative handful of urban pioneers.

 

Sprawl is usually the byproduct of government programs designed to encourage job growth and economic development, precisely the justification given for the new interchanges on I-75.

 

But along with dispersal of the population come some very bad consequences - longer commutes to work, increased fuel consumption and related air pollution, higher taxes to pay for more roads, schools and libraries, destruction of the wooded hillsides and streams that are the hallmark of the Cincinnati area, and a homogenous streetscape where every community looks like all the others. Neighbors barely know the people next door, let alone down the street, and the sense of place is a nostalgic memory.

Read full article here:

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070318/EDIT02/703180346/1090

^I couldn't have said it better myself (the bolded).

Wow. I loved that.

I just can't imagine living in an environment where I can't walk somewhere. I feel bored and isolated. You literally NEED a car just to live in some of these communities. Can you even call them communities? Hmm. I understand theres people that simply don't mind commuting to Dayton or Cincinnati because it's fairly cheap at the moment but people have to reach a point eventually where they realize it's stupid to live 45 minutes from where they work.

^^tim mara did the citylink oppossition if memory serves me correct.

If anybody is familiar with the north side of Indy (31 off of 465), that is what this Austin Road area will ultimately look like.  Nothing but business park after business park after generic strip mall after business park - with absolutely no regard to any kind of walkability or sustainability.  And all at the expense of our urban core.  Anybody ready to start a revolution?

 

I think you are being a little unfair to the Meridian St (US 31) corridor in North Indianapolis.  North of I-465 is Carmel, which is a national leader in quality suburban development.  Many years ago they put an overlay zoning ordinance in effect for the Merdian corridor that basically mandates quality office parks be built there.  Yes, they are suburban office buildings, but there are actually comparatively few "generic strip malls" - or strip malls of any kind - until you get well north into Westfield.  There isn't even a Wal-Mart in Carmel.

 

South of I-465 there is only one mile of mixed use development, which then transitions to predominantly single family residential, including, further south, the Meridian St. historic district, with about two miles of nice 20's and 30's vintage mansions. 

 

Tim Mara led the opposition to Issue 1, the stadium sales tax that passed in spring 1996, as well as the more recent unsuccessful fight against Legacy Place on Harrison Ave. 

I think you are being a little unfair to the Meridian St (US 31) corridor in North Indianapolis.  North of I-465 is Carmel, which is a national leader in quality suburban development.  Many years ago they put an overlay zoning ordinance in effect for the Merdian corridor that basically mandates quality office parks be built there.  Yes, they are suburban office buildings, but there are actually comparatively few "generic strip malls" - or strip malls of any kind - until you get well north into Westfield.  There isn't even a Wal-Mart in Carmel.

 

This is going to be somewhat the case with Austin Road.  I am not sure about a zoning overlay as there are multiple jurisdictions involved, but they are going to approach the intersection of Austin Road and OH 721

as a sort of limited access interchange, and the area around it is to be developed as offices and light industry, not retail or strip centers.  One of the planners involved says that the zoning will prohibit retail development, as they want to protect the pre-existing retail around the Dayton Mall, which is to the north (though there will be some retail close in to the south, that is already going in).

 

The Austin Road development is an interesting case of multijurisdictional cooperation,  that also involves Dayton city govt.  Dayton owns the nearby general aviation airport, and will be getting a cut of the local income tax revenue from new developement, which is one reason the city hasn't officially opposed the interchange, and has been working with the local suburban govts in planning for the area and setting up the joint development district.

 

Can you even call them communities?

 

"community" can mean a lot of things.  What about rural areas where people live somewhat far apart on farms.  Are they communities of a sort?  Community happens around peoples churches, their work, school, and so forth.  It doesn't have to be walking distance.

 

Hmm. I understand theres people that simply don't mind commuting to Dayton or Cincinnati because it's fairly cheap at the moment but people have to reach a point eventually where they realize it's stupid to live 45 minutes from where they work.

 

People don't necessarily have to be driving into either city.  There is employment developing all along that I-75 corridor, and also on the edges of Montgomery and Hamilton county, closer to Warren or Butler (for example the tri-county/Glendale area), so commuting times might not be that dire, depending on traffic.

I think you are being a little unfair to the Meridian St (US 31) corridor in North Indianapolis...

 

I don't know that area very well other than that my brother lives in Westfield, and driving 31 to his house reveals miles of these office buildings, business parks and retail centers - with not a sidewalk in sight.  Whenever I drive through I always wonder what would happen to this area if gas shot up to $6.00 per gallon.  And because all of this development looks the same, there is no sense of place - so honestly I have no idea what town I'm in as I drive 31 to Westfield.  I have no problem with new urbanism (sustainable, walkable and mixed-use), and if Carmel has that then I would say kudos to them.  But it doesn't exist anywhere on my drive to Westfield.

 

My problem with the Austin Road development is that the region has no need for yet another business park/retail center.  The region is shrinking.  Except for businesses supporting or spinning off from WPAB, there aren't many businesses relocating here from outside of the region.  What this Austin Road development represents to me is simply another opportunity for downtown businesses to be poached - all in the name of more free parking and less "crime".  For the amount of money being spent on this interchange and subsequent development, I'd bet five new parking garages could be built in downtown.  But this region isn't interested in downtown as much as it is interested in continuing the homogenized growth southward.  And this is exactly why so many young people are fleeing for bigger cities as soon as they get done with school - because they would rather be in diverse, vibrant and interesting urban centers, not the 1950's version of the "American Dream".

What this Austin Road development represents to me is simply another opportunity for downtown businesses to be poached -

 

Here is something interesting. Did you know that the big developer of office space along Springboro Pike south of I-675 was the Mead Corporation?   The corporation that used to be in that office building on Courthouse Square.

 

They developed Newmark Center, and the Lexis Nexis campus. They sold the land to Metlife for their regional offices. And they owned all the land between Springboro Pike and I -675 from Metlife south to Austin Road (and they or one of their subsidiarys still might).

 

It is no accident that NewPage is building their new office building in Newmark, as the company is a spinoff of Meadwestvaco, and are locating in an office park developed by the same company.

 

So it is interesting that one of the big local corporations had a hand in helping office development decentralize, while at the same time developing a skyscraper downtown.

^That is very interesting, Jeff - thanks for the info.  I knew that Mead owned a bunch of office space down that way, but I assumed they sold a lot of it off after their merger with Westvaco and subsequent headquarter relocation to Richmond.  It would be interesting to know if way back when, Mead had always planned to eventually move their entire operation to the south burbs. 

Meadwestvaco could have divested itself of its holdings here, I don't know.

 

By the looks of the architecture, I think Newmark was built in the 70s, around the same time the Mead Tower went up, so Mead was doing development at both ends; corporate HQ stuff downtown, back office stuff out in the edge city? As their MDC subsidiary grew, they kept adding to the original computer room buildings out off Springboro Pike, hence the Lexis-Nexis campus. They also built their Cycolor plant out there.

 

I knew about Newmark but found out by accident that Mead owned land all the way to Austin Road, which i figure was being held in speculation.

 

So you had one of the big local corporations sitting on large chunks of land directly in the path of suburban expansion...in a sense their partial development of the property drove expansion.

 

The Mead family also had speculative holdings south of town, in southern Washington Twp.

 

Here's an excerpt from a downtown planning document that talks to what was going ont. As you can see, the land south of town around the mall was already held in speculation, probably since the early 1960s when the alignment of the future I-675 was finalized.

 

WILL DOWNTOWN DAYTON MOVE (OR HAS IT?)(Nov. 1969)

 

Already South Dayton Mall (SDM) is anticipated to overshadow the present CBD retailing function. SDM will have 2.2 million sq. ft. of retail space consisting of 106 stores. Downtown Dayton presently comprises approximately 2 million sq. ft. with Rikes Department store accounting for 600,000. Adjacent to the SDM are an additional 168 acres already zoned for commercial used. Some of Dayton’s existing merchants are estimating that 40% of their total sales will be generated by SDM. This may, in fact, be a conservative estimate.

 

Office buildings are already locating in nearby areas adjacent to the mall. A million-dollar building is programmed to be built southwest of the 741-725 intersection. The $8 million NCR training/office complex is currently under construction. In addition many smaller buildings such as the Shell Oil Company regional office headquarters…. are in various stages of development.

 

The County Planning Commission has zoned 113 acres to the east of the SDM for commercial use. There have been numerous requests for rezoning the areas immediately north of the SM from south 725 to Yankee Street. The areas directly south of the SDM are either being held for speculation…or are in the process of being studied for high-density commercial planned unit development. Thus while the office space function is still most strongly associated with downtown…large office parks are bound to be built in the next five to ten year period provided the center city creates no counter-trends,

 

…Downtown Dayton has waited too long to begin the replacement of its obsolete facilities, and a variety of factors are working to pull office/sleeping room and retail space users out of the traditional center city. If they continue to be unopposed these forces will work to shrink downtown Dayton’s share of the regions economy…Time is not longer on the side of Downtown Dayton. Immediate steps must be taken."

 

Though this was a plea for the completion of an urban renewal program, the prediction was pretty accurate. The Dayton Mall/725/741 area did indeed replace downtown Dayton as the main retail center for the region (until Fairfield Commons opened), and did becoming a competing buisiness center, which is now expanding southward to Austin Road.

Merged United Ways would be among largest in country

With Cincinnati and Dayton regions expanding, a combined agency is considered

BY MARGO RUTLEDGE KISSELL | July 24, 2007

 

When Rob Reifsnyder talks about the possibility of four area United Ways merging into one regional agency, he notes the outskirts of Dayton and Cincinnati have been inching toward each other for years.  "The prediction is we will be one metroplex in the midpoint of the next decade, between 2010 and 2020," said Reifsnyder, president of the United Way of Greater Cincinnati, which includes Northern Kentucky.

 

With Warren and Butler counties wedged between the two large metropolitan areas, Reifsnyder believes it makes sense to unite the four United Ways that now cover greater Cincinnati, Warren and Butler counties and the greater Dayton area of Montgomery, Greene and Preble counties.

 

Merging four agencies with combined annual fundraising campaigns of about $78 million would make the regional United Way one of the biggest in the country, Reifsnyder said. On its own, the Greater Cincinnati United Way is ranked ninth largest based on the size of last year's $61.82 million fund-raising campaign.  As leaders craft a possible regional model, they are working to maintain a strong local presence.

 

Read full article here:

http://news.cincypost.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070724/NEWS01/707240372

"The United Way of the Greater Dayton Area exceeded its 2006 campaign goal, raising $11.8 million."

 

"Last year the United Way of Greater Cincinnati raised $61.82 million in its annual campaign, slightly exceeding its goal."

 

I could see how Dayton's United Way would want to join Cincy's United Way. With these types of numbers Cincy's is clearly doing better. Even when you take into account the population numbers. If I was Cincy UW I would have to look at this request long and hard.

 

 

Regional development forum discusses Cincinnati-Dayton connection

BY LAURA BAVERMAN | August 2, 2007

 

Job creation and work-force development were top-of-mind challenges for a panel of business and community leaders assembled by the Business Courier and the Dayton Business Journal for Thursday's regional development forum at the Manchester Inn in Middletown.

 

"The No. 1 thing new businesses want is a qualified work force," said Deborah Norris, vice president of work-force development for Sinclair Community College. "We have to think of innovative ways to produce talent in the future, recognizing that we've moved from a production society to a service society."

 

Training and maintaining quality talent would be a key factor in attracting new companies to the region and to help grow existing ones, agreed Norris and four other panelists, each representing a different industry sector. And, as Dayton and Cincinnati are pushed closer together through residential growth and commercial development in Butler and Warren counties, these leaders recognized that controlling the process and planning for the growth must be a joint effort by many stakeholders.

 

Read full article here:

http://cincinnati.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/stories/2007/07/30/daily49.html

Another interesting twist on the Daytonnati concept is the recent news about the Dayton Art Institute.

 

Apparently the DAI board had recruite the director of the Allentown art musuem, and was set to hire him, but apparently insisted that he was going to live in Cincinnati.  So I guess he was going to commute up I-75 to manage the DAI.....one wonders what the reaction would be at arts openings and cocktail partys in Cincinnati when the table talk rolls around to "whats my line":

 

"So, Mr So & So, what do you do"

 

"Im the director of the Dayton Art Insititute"

 

>cue suprised look<,

 

>catty response<, "I don't live in Dayton, I just work there...Dayton, well, you know...."

 

>snide laughs all around<

 

(or some such dialogue).

 

Needless to say the offer was withdrawn.  I guess the DAI board has sort of an official residency requirement that their director actually lives in the area while running the museum (the previous director lived in Oakwood, but relocated to a condo in Performance Place).

 

 

The bottom line is that Dayton REALLY needs Cincinnati to help it out a little bit.  Dayton has just been getting beat up badly over the past few years.  Any kind of regional cooperation would surely help Dayton out...at least somewhat.

>catty response<, "I don't live in Dayton, I just work there...Dayton, well, you know....

 

Kind of amusing since I have used that line before.

it would be the 14th largest csa

A lady that works with my wife lives in Indianapolis and works in DT Cincy ... I'm not sure what neighborhood? ... And you know that I74 is sprawling like a mo-fo.

 

50 years from now: Cindaycolapolis.

The bottom line is that Dayton REALLY needs Cincinnati to help it out a little bit.  Dayton has just been getting beat up badly over the past few years.  Any kind of regional cooperation would surely help Dayton out...at least somewhat.

 

And yet, comically, it is Cincinnati folk who really want Dayton.

I really don't see how the Cincinnati-Dayton "megalopolis" benefits Dayton, or for that matter Cincinnati (other than allowing Cincinnatians to quote higher population numbers).  Now once there is true regional cooperation, then I can start seeing the benefits.  But as it is now, I question the amount of true regional cooperation we have within our respective cities.  So maybe I'm being overly cynical, but I have a hard time believing that all of a sudden we will start working together as a region once Dayton,Cincinnati, and all the sprawl in between are considered one region. 

 

I was a excited to read the headline on the last article posted-Regional development forum discusses Cincinnati-Dayton connection.  But then I looked at the participants and it suddenly doesn't look like a regional forum, but instead the Warren County Show.

 

• Deborah Norris, vice president of work-force development for Sinclair Community College
  
• Doug McNeill, president and CEO of Middletown Regional Health System
  
• Edward Reilly, president of KeyBank's (NYSE: KEY) southwest Ohio district
  
• Michael Schueler, president of real estate developer Henkle Schueler & Associates
  
• Pat South, Warren County commissioner and chairwoman of the I-75 Task Force
  

 

Let's look at the list a little closer....

 

• Sinclair--focusing on their new Warren County Campus
  
• Middletown Regional Health System--building a new hospital in Warren County
  
• KeyBank--Fair enough participant, but also benefits from sprawl
  
• Henkle Schueler & Associates--Suburban real estate developer based in Warren County
  
• Warren County Commission--enough said
  

 

Hardly my ideal definition of "regional."

 

The bottom line is that Dayton REALLY needs Cincinnati to help it out a little bit.  Dayton has just been getting beat up badly over the past few years.

I'm really not trying to be a jerk, but how does Cincinnati intend to help Dayton?  Are they going to tell a company that is looking to locate in Cincinnati that they should look more north on I-75 because Dayton needs them more?  Nope.  Is Cincinnati going to start diverting some of their tax revenue to help their neighbors to the north?  Nope.  Like I said before, I am all for regional cooperation and think it is beneficial to all, but I really question your statement that "Dayton REALLY needs Cincinnati."

 

A lady that works with my wife lives in Indianapolis and works in DT Cincy ... I'm not sure what neighborhood? ... And you know that I74 is sprawling like a mo-fo.

 

50 years from now: Cindaycolapolis.

That's a ridiculous commute.  And the sprawl and development along there is only going to get worse with the Honda plant.

The bottom line is that Dayton REALLY needs Cincinnati to help it out a little bit.  Dayton has just been getting beat up badly over the past few years.

I'm really not trying to be a jerk, but how does Cincinnati intend to help Dayton?  Are they going to tell a company that is looking to locate in Cincinnati that they should look more north on I-75 because Dayton needs them more?  Nope.  Is Cincinnati going to start diverting some of their tax revenue to help their neighbors to the north?  Nope.  Like I said before, I am all for regional cooperation and think it is beneficial to all, but I really question your statement that "Dayton REALLY needs Cincinnati."

 

Of course Dayton won't benefit in the private sector from a merging of the two MSA's, but the combination of agencies and regional entities would seem to help out Dayton enormously.  For example:

 

-The two separate United Ways are discussing a merger (as mentioned earlier in this thread).  The Cincinnati United Way raise $61.82 M (slightly ahead of it's goal) in 2006.  The Dayton United Way raised $11.8 M which was also ahead of it's goal.  There is a MASSIVE difference in the numbers, and the Dayton area would benefit greatly from a combined agency that could streamline it's functions which would in turn share the wealth across the board.  Obviously they would dole out money accordingly, but you should be able to see the potential benefits.

 

-A combining of the two MSA's would also help Dayton (not really Cincinnati) in terms of funding.  Dayton is currently shedding population and jobs...whereas Cincinnati has the opposite going on.  This would level this field out in terms of perception and grant allocations somewhat.

 

-This would also put it in everybody's face that the two cities are more connected than what many seem to aknowledge.  This hopefully would lead to more regional efforts and cooperation.  Obviously both MSA's would benefit from this, but especially Dayton.  Cincinnati has Nky helping out with funding on certain projects (bridges, highways, parks, etc)...whereas Dayton really doesn't have anyone else to associate with to possibly assist on these types of projects that are on a more regional level.

 

Certainly Cincinnati would like to tack Dayton's population to it's perceived numbers, but this would also help out Dayton by being able to be directly associated with a much larger (combined) CSA.  Not only that, but Cincinnati has been getting a good deal of positive press lately where Dayton has been getting the opposite.  Once again it would be a perceived improvement by the simple association.

 

Both MSA's will benefit from this, but since Dayton is struggling and feeling the pinch lately...they would be the ones to benefit the most.  Cincinnati may even be hurt a little by the association.  No longer would Cincinnati be able to claim population growth for the Cincinnati Metropolitan area; the Dayton decline would offset that.  So yes Cincinnati would have a higher population, but a lower growth rate (maybe a decline) as a result as well.

a rail line from downtown to dayton to dayton's airport would be awsome.

The bottom line is that Dayton REALLY needs Cincinnati to help it out a little bit.  Dayton has just been getting beat up badly over the past few years.  Any kind of regional cooperation would surely help Dayton out...at least somewhat.

 

Dayton doesn't need Cincinnati.  Dayton needs Dayton.  That's the problem.

 

The bottom line is that Dayton REALLY needs Cincinnati to help it out a little bit.  Dayton has just been getting beat up badly over the past few years.  Any kind of regional cooperation would surely help Dayton out...at least somewhat.

 

And yet, comically, it is Cincinnati folk who really want Dayton.

 

Bingo.  Dayton doesn't give a rat's ass about being in the "14th largest metropolitan area."  Let's keep it real...what would Dayton have in this gain?  St. Paul-Ft. Worth-Oakland-Newark-Ft. Lauderdale-Gary status?  I mean, really.  The problem is that the populace of Dayton is quite apathetic (perhaps the most in the state) and generally supports the city in small doses (CityFolk, etc).  What Dayton needs is a new marketing campaign to its OWN residents, support local restaurants a bit more (talking to the suburbanites), and more of this "Dayton Pride" stuff.  Helping home starts at home first.

-A combining of the two MSA's would also help Dayton (not really Cincinnati) in terms of funding.

 

Yes.  Let's tell Camden, Gary, Tacoma, Oakland, and the glorious Worcester that and then get back with me.  Again, I only see this as a benefit for Cincinnati's exposure by adding 1.1 million people.

 

-This would also put it in everybody's face that the two cities are more connected than what many seem to aknowledge.  This hopefully would lead to more regional efforts and cooperation.  Obviously both MSA's would benefit from this, but especially Dayton.  Cincinnati has Nky helping out with funding on certain projects (bridges, highways, parks, etc)...whereas Dayton really doesn't have anyone else to associate with to possibly assist on these types of projects that are on a more regional level.

 

Certainly Cincinnati would like to tack Dayton's population to it's perceived numbers, but this would also help out Dayton by being able to be directly associated with a much larger (combined) CSA.  Not only that, but Cincinnati has been getting a good deal of positive press lately where Dayton has been getting the opposite.  Once again it would be a perceived improvement by the simple association.

 

Both MSA's will benefit from this, but since Dayton is struggling and feeling the pinch lately...they would be the ones to benefit the most.  Cincinnati may even be hurt a little by the association.  No longer would Cincinnati be able to claim population growth for the Cincinnati Metropolitan area; the Dayton decline would offset that.  So yes Cincinnati would have a higher population, but a lower growth rate (maybe a decline) as a result as well.

 

And you don't think Dayton would be WORSE off that it'll simply be officially tacked as a "second city" and all the funds can go to the "main city?"  I mean, historically, second cities in CSA populations have been bitchslapped (Tacoma, Flint, Newark, Oakland, St. Petersburg, Ft. Worth) versus their larger, more prominant center.  In this case, we have two entirely different media markets in which the populaces of both "regions" don't have a clue about each other other than Wright Bros, Kings Island, and a Reds game.  The only way I see this benefiting Dayton is if Cincinnati companies actively participate in the creation of jobs in the Miami Valley.  Otherwise, moronic comments of "well, it's just Dayton...eh" will continue.

A lady that works with my wife lives in Indianapolis and works in DT Cincy ... I'm not sure what neighborhood? ... And you know that I74 is sprawling like a mo-fo.

 

I work with a guy who lives in Indianapolis and commutes to DT Cincy.  I also know someone who lives in Dayton and commutes to DT Cincy as well.

I guess I'm wrong...the regionalization of Cincinnati and Dayton will do NOTHING to help either entity.  I too must be off on my opinion that MSA/CSA numbers mean anything...it's not like the government, corporations, or the average joe cares about those reports.

 

[/sarcasm]

 

Give me a break everyone...are you seriously telling me it won't matter one iota to either entity!?!?

The problem is that the populace of Dayton is quite apathetic (perhaps the most in the state) and generally supports the city in small doses (CityFolk, etc).  What Dayton needs is a new marketing campaign to its OWN residents, support local restaurants a bit more (talking to the suburbanites), and more of this "Dayton Pride" stuff.  Helping home starts at home first.

 

Apathetic is probably the best case scenario.  A lot of what I read online is actively negative, not just apathetic.

 

As for that article or news Dffly posted, the Warren County/Butler County angle is really going to be key.  As we all know the Dayton area has a weak economy, so if Cincys economic growth heads north more (more buisinessess locating into Warren/Butler) that means this is a growing job market for people in Montgomery County.

 

Also, one should bear in mind there is growth going on north, into Miami County, and esp. east, into Greene.  If one is Cincinnati-centric, or one lives "south" like I do, it's easy to overlook that growth is not just between Cincy & Dayton.  These other growth areas, Miami & Greene counties,  really have little to do with Cincinnati.

 

 

I also know someone who lives in Dayton and commutes to DT Cincy as well.

 

I've met tons of those types of commuters, just not so much the Indy commuters.

I'm curious, Jeff, CDM, dfly ... you guys have all lived in Dayton or currently still live there, do you know a good amount of people that live in Dayton and work in Cincinnati yourselves?

I too must be off on my opinion that MSA/CSA numbers mean anything...it's not like the government, corporations, or the average joe cares about those reports.

 

They don't influence corporate decisions. Businesses only care about market, as they should. Average joe? He doesn't give a damn about population statistics. All he cares about is a city's image/health. That's how he decides what cities he likes/dislikes/relocates to. That's how places like Portland and Austin get 100 times the attention the whole state of Ohio does.

 

Urban nerds like ourselves are the only ones who care about MSA and CSA statistics.

 

Give me a break everyone...are you seriously telling me it won't matter one iota to either entity!?!?

 

They will "matter" for PR at a few Cincinnati corporations, but they won't do a damn thing to help Dayton. The larger city is always the one who benefits from CSA. Consolidation benefits the larger city, not the smaller one.

 

LOOK BEYOND THE CORPORATE MIX THEN!!!  If you don't want to consider that the corporate sector is often influenced by perception and commuting patterns (potential workforce) then look at the other scenarios...government funding, consolidation of organizations, regional services, etc.

 

Everyone just keeps looking at this like all it's going to do is change some numbers on the Census website.  Look at all the ramifications and beyond just the Census tabulations.  It's not just about egos here; it's much more than that.

I work with a guy who lives in Indianapolis and commutes to DT Cincy. 

 

LOL, yeah this sounds like a guy I worked with in Calfornia, who lived in the East Bay (Dublin, CA) and commuted to Sacrmento.  Cali style commutes in the Midwest...woah!

 

 

I also know someone who lives in Dayton and commutes to DT Cincy as well.

 

I came close to doing this, but in reverse, shortly after moving to the area.  I timed some rush hour drives to Clifton and downtown Cincy (places I was thinking about living) from where I worked in Dayton at the time,  and it was just too much of a grind.  I did work with a guy, or knew of a guy, who lived in Clifton and commuted to Dayton. 

^So why is it that "more sprawl" would occur.  If it's just a numbers thing, then NOTHING should change right?!?  And the relationship between Cleveland/Akron might be more comparable to that of Cincinnati/Hamilton not Dayton.

I'm curious, Jeff, CDM, dfly ... you guys have all lived in Dayton or currently still live there, do you know a good amount of people that live in Dayton and work in Cincinnati yourselves?

 

I lived in Cincinnati and commuted to Dayton for a couple of months, before I moved back to Dayton, but it was just a temporary thing.  I've toyed with the idea of applying for jobs in the Cincinnati area, but always come to the same conclusion--that commute time is wasted time that I can spend better and more enjoyably.  That's just me though and obviously other people have different considerations and priorities.  I know of a few people that live in the Dayton area and commute to the Cincinnati area--usually northern suburbs like Mason, West Chester, and Evendale.  More common seems to be people living in Mason and West Chester and commuting to Dayton--presumably sometimes with the other spouse commuting to Cincinnati.  Also, I know of a couple of people that commute between Dayton and Columbus.

I think commuting from CIN to Day and vice versa is more common place than most think. I was very close to taking a job in Sharonville and driving from Dayton every day. My best friend drove from downtown dayton to downtown cincy for about 2 years. I work right next to a guy who lives in Hyde Park and drives to NCR in Dayton every day for work....and then once you expand into WC, Mason etc....I think it's all over place the patterns of where people live/work. It truly is starting to blend into one big *ss area!

I'm curious, Jeff, CDM, dfly ... you guys have all lived in Dayton or currently still live there, do you know a good amount of people that live in Dayton and work in Cincinnati yourselves?

 

I lived in Cincinnati and commuted to Dayton for a couple of months, before I moved back to Dayton, but it was just a temporary thing.  I've toyed with the idea of applying for jobs in the Cincinnati area, but always come to the same conclusion--that commute time is wasted time that I can spend better and more enjoyably.  That's just me though and obviously other people have different considerations and priorities.  I know of a few people that live in the Dayton area and commute to the Cincinnati area--usually northern suburbs like Mason, West Chester, and Evendale.  More common seems to be people living in Mason and West Chester and commuting to Dayton--presumably sometimes with the other spouse commuting to Cincinnati.  Also, I know of a couple of people that commute between Dayton and Columbus.

 

Thanks for that, I was just curious and interested in feedback from someone that lived in Dayton.

 

I think the general consensus is that the 2 cities are just blurred together now.

Come on C-dawg. I'm sure you would get a ego boost if Toledo is a part of Detroit's CSA. Then i can see you braging about how much larger Toledo CSA is comparied to Cincy's CSA. That's just been your trend.

On a plane ride (two weeks ago) from Dayton to Chicago, I sat next to this young female (around 30 or so)...and she asked me where I lived and I responded with Cincinnati...I then asked her the same thing and she said "Dayton, well...uh it's pretty much Cincinnati; it's on the southern side."

 

People, from both areas, are starting to realize how intertwined the two metros really are.

Something about reading a thread that is tainted with C-Dawg's ignorance that turns me off.  Don't waste your time responding to his meaningless rants.  He has already shown his dislike for this region so anything that he spews out is going to be taken from a bias standpoint.

I think commuting from CIN to Day and vice versa is more common place than most think. I was very close to taking a job in Sharonville and driving from Dayton every day. My best friend drove from downtown dayton to downtown cincy for about 2 years. I work right next to a guy who lives in Hyde Park and drives to NCR in Dayton every day for work....and then once you expand into WC, Mason etc....I think it's all over place the patterns of where people live/work. It truly is starting to blend into one big *ss area!

 

 

Yeah, that edgeless city concept.

 

I think I ran some stats on this from the Census website and made up a "commuter shed"  map for Dayton/Mont. County...yeah, here it is....