I think the main thing that made Butler (and Warren) county growth possible wast the migration of jobs out of Cincy downtown

 

Which ones moved from DT to north of 275?

It wasn't primarily actual abandonment of particular jobs/companies. Instead, new companies located in the 'burbs instead of downtown. Some of it was also downtown companies expanded it was into the 'burbs instead in the core.

 

Machine tools used to be Cincinnati industry, but although there are plenty of machine companies in the region there is little left within the city. The 71 corridor and the area by the airport are now the core of that industry.

Also, we have unfortunately not had suburban office development grow in a strip pattern as has happened in a few instances in California.  Ironically this is very well suited for mass transit, with the best example being the planned Wilshire Blvd. subway extension in Los Angeles.

 

Obviously the CL&N ROW between Xavier and Blue Ash would make a terrific light rail route, but I've recently wondered what reconstruction of the interurban on and next to Hamilton Ave. between College Hill and downtown Hamilton via Fairfield would do (assuming a downtown Cincinnati rail connection).  Not a ton of passengers to begin with, but it would attract a lot of interesting trips between those two points.  This is the line that Joe Nuxhall famously rode from his mom's house to pitch for the Reds when he was 15.       

Which ones moved from DT to north of 275?

 

Not just north of I-275, but to Blue Ash and other areas just inside I-275.

 

P&G for one - it built the big Health-care research center in Mason.  It moved a lot of jobs to its Governors Hill office building (on Fields-Ertle road).  It opend an business office on Union Center road (or there-abouts) near Lakota West in Westchester.

 

Luxottic moved to Mason, from the former US Shoe office space south of Kenwood.  5/3 bank moved its IT site to the forer Luxottica spot.

 

A lot of medical offices are now in Blue Ash, that one would have expected to be in the Clifton/UC area instead.

 

Isn't the big credit card processing business in Blue Ash (Citicards).  It's new.  Normally one would have expected that to locate closer to a downtown area.

 

All of these are examples of jobs that would have gone into a downtown Cincinnati office 50 years ago.  And had they done so this time around, few people would have commuted from Middletown/Hamilton/Lebanon to a job downtown.  But with the jobs moving out near I275, those 3 cities become relatively easy commutes, therefore greately contributing to urban sprawl.

 

These cities are also easy commutes to the South Dayton business area of Miamisburg. Again, had Lexis/Nexis, MetLife, the high-end computer spinoff of NCR (can't recall its name right now - its in Springboro), and NCR's mortgage business gone to downtown Dayton like they would have 50 years ago, would Springboro have ever grown?

 

Those jobs are certainly out in the 'burbs, though I think that many of those kinds of jobs haven't been located in downtown areas in at least 40 years. Now Toyota's HQ should be downtown (Cov. or Cincy).

Since Dayton is close to the county line there would have been suburbanization happening into Greene even without the base, including, perhpas, outlying business parks.  The base just makes this much more intense

 

Without WPAFB, western Greene could probably have resembled what northern Warren county looks like. Areas like along Dayton-Yellow Springs Rd would still be rural highways. But that would also mean that the Dayton MSA itself would have been a far smaller place now, so development would have been spotty and low intensity.  I-675, "The Browne" (excuse me, "The Greene"  :evil:), and a lot of the madness of southern suburban development never would have happened.

 

What really bugs me about this in-between area of Warren County is the almost total lack of local identity.

 

Growth in Warren county has been due to proximity and commuting patterns, not because of any strong local identity. (Huh - in the Western Star they have been documenting the possible pullout of the railroad, and in the city council they called it one of the "three pillars" of the city. A minor tourist attraction is a reason for being?)

 

I tend to respect rooted old-timers in an area who remember "back when" because they made a decision to make a life in the local area. You just don't see independent thinkers or self reliant country types around here, just unwashed hoards who followed the real estate developers. The Lebanon area is "New Kettering", IMO. The region around West Chester and Landen are basically "Montgomery North".

 

Middletown seems like it should have a strong local identity, and it kind of does and has a very few local boosters, but damned if I can see it when driving through or shopping there. It just seems like more "Kettering South" and it's dying rapidly (re: Towne Mall).

It wasn't primarily actual abandonment of particular jobs/companies. Instead, new companies located in the 'burbs instead of downtown. Some of it was also downtown companies expanded it was into the 'burbs instead in the core.

 

In Dayton's case the Mead Corporation is ironic.  They had the intention of locating to a suburban office campus in the Dayton Mall vicinity in the late 1960s as they didn't have space downtown.  Apparently NCR was thinking the same thing, buying property near Mead and locating a traning center to the south.

 

Well, NCR went down the tubes. Their suburban holding became a Wal-Mart and they sold their training center.

 

Mead decided, instead, to build that skyscraper downtown (but still held the suburban property which became the site of Newmark and Lexis-Nexis).  Eventually, after various corporate gyrations that resulted in Mead leaving Dayton, their local NewPage spin-off eventually did locate at Newmark, inadvertenly fulflling the plans of the late 1960s.

 

although there are plenty of machine companies in the region there is little left within the city. The 71 corridor and the area by the airport are now the core of that industry.

 

This has happened with the tool & die industry in Dayton, with it moving north of the city along I-75 toward Vandalia.

 

 

 

I think one can classify the I-75 interchanges by type and function?  They seem to have different characers.

 

Franklin 1/Springboro

 

Retail Strip with industrial parks and some office

 

Franklin 2

Interstate service area (ie truck stop & highway oriented buisness)

 

Middletown

Big box retail and fast food cluster with some office and a new hospital.  (the new Downtown Middletown?")

 

Monroe

Specialized retail (flea markets and outlet mall) and maybe some industrial parks

 

Tylersville

Retail strip + hospital and offices

 

Cin-Day Rd

retail strip

 

Union Center

Industrial/office with fast food cluster.

 

 

 

Monroe

Specialized retail ([glow=red,2,300]flea markets[/glow] and outlet mall) and maybe some industrial parks

 

That's a nice way to put it (for knock off Ralph Lauren Jeans, Native American memorabilia and stolen craftsmen tools) hehe.

Specialized Retail is also a discrete way of saying "Hustler Superstore and gentlemens clubs".

 

Driving by that outlet mall under construction one can see this place is going to be a  hoot.  One of the buildings looks like a small versin of Union Termnial.  I wonder if they are going to be doing copys of other Cincy landmarks, making it a retail SW Ohio version of Vegas' NYNY hotel.

 

 

For Warren, I think the I-71 corridor is becoming a job center with those office buildings between I-275 and Kings Island (they are in Warren, true?)

 

 

 

I think Greens's sprawl is more due to I-675 than anything else. U.S. 35 in Greene County has been around forever and growth along 35 is slow at best. Of course 675 was built to mainly serve more as a link for WPAFB than a bypass. So WPAFB boosted by 675 is what is the driving force behind most of the growth in Greene County. Fairfield Mall area, the Greene and most of Wilmington Pk's retail hell would not exist without 675.

 

C-Dawg, the reason I stated that we will have to deal with it is because the sad fact is that most of your middle class suburban dwellers have prety much made up their mind that the center cities are hell and they want to get as far away as possible. Most will be closed minded to what sprawl really means and will not change their views. And it will always be like this unless cities and counties take preventatve measures to limit sprawl which I don't see none of. Look at the development of Austin Pk. Even Dayton supports it although there will be little if any benefit to Dayton for the development of (and more sprawl) of the Austin Pk. area.

People need to realize that their "little pieces of country" are BS and unsustainable. There are only no pieces or big pieces. Either you have a white collar job and live in a city or inner ring 'burb, or you go with the full rural lifestyle working as a farmer, doing odd jobs, schoolteaching, in a coal mine or at a local store/restaurant/bar. Both are fine lifestyles, but this "in the middle" stuff of living in ribbon development/flag lots and burning up their lives driving to faraway office parks and big-box stores is stressful, wasteful, unfulfilling and unhealthy.

Anyone know if there are going to do a light-rail line between cincy and dayton?

 

It might work if they ran it from airport to airport, and past some major places like downtown Cincy, Dayton, Middletown, and Hamilton, WPAFB, UC/XAVIER/UD/Sinclair, Cincy zoo/Kings Island, malls, Lexis/Nexis, etc. I think that it migh actually be effective if it was just one straight line that connected a lot of large destinations even if it was a tad bit twisty and turny.

light rail is too slow for that great of a distance. Commuter rail would be much faster.

There is a diesel light rail line in New Jersey connecting Camden and Trenton that is interesting to read about, which I think could be a bit of a model for a Cincinnati > Hamilton > Middletown > Dayton service. 

 

Except for Greyhound there is no bus service between Cincinnati and Dayton.  Simply getting a regular bus service from Cincinnati/NK airport to downtown Cincinnati, UC, Tri-County, Dayton Mall, UD, Downtown Dayton, and Dayton Airport would be a start. 

 

http://www.riverLINE.com/images/pdf/riverline_railmap.pdf

 

 

 

 

^

the return of the rail-diesel car. 

 

The problem with a rail route using more or less existing trackage is that it would link the stagnant/dying older areas along the Great Miami, places that are not really were the action is (which is along the interstate)

 

 

It's called escaping reality because the reality sucks. I think a lot of people in suburbia are unhappy, but just numb themselves to it by thinking they have it "better" than others.

 

Welcome to the Matrix.

 

Or, for those of you with a more politco-philosophical bent, Suburbia is the materialization of The Society of the Spectacle

 

....but one can still observe and comment, no?

 

I think the Bulter/Warren discussion is somewhat interesting as one of these interchange nodes sits right on the county line...Middletown.  The "New Downtown Middletown" is actually in Warren County.

one of these interchange nodes sits right on the county line...Middletown. 

 

Actually, the Monroe exchange (at sr 63) sits right on the county line.  The Middletown exchange (sr 122) sits about 1 mile inside Warren County.  The city of Middletown (and Monroe for that matter) used to stop at the county line 20 years ago.  Then they annexed land in Warren county.

 

Growing up in Middletown my house was the last one in the city (at least where I lived) and there was a small farmland behind it and then you reached Cincy-Dayton road.  The county line ran down the middle of the crop field.  So I could look out my window and see Warren county, Cin-Day road, and I-75 further east (when there were no leaves on the trees)

 

(for those of you familiar with the area, Bavarian Woods apparments were built on that crop land.  The county line runs down the middle of that small appartment complex.)

Absolutely. I spent a lot of time growing up in this lifestyle and I hated every second of it. I think children are most destroyed by this. Simple things like having no sidewalks, no safe roads to bike on to get anywhere useful, and no parks to play in are destructive to childhood. And people in America wonder why kids play so many video games... :roll:

 

It's called escaping reality because the reality sucks. I think a lot of people in suburbia are unhappy, but just numb themselves to it by thinking they have it "better" than others.

 

 

I really hope your not serious. You actually think that just because there aren't any sidewalks that it will make for a bad childhood? That is one of the most absurd things that I've ever heard. And for parks, if a kid can't imagine up a game to play in their own back yard then they probably wouldn't have much fun in a park anyways.

Agreed. I never grew up in the suburbs but there's always a backyard, a cul-de-sac, drive way where you could have a basketball court, or nearby park you can at least be driven to. A lot of those subdivisions do have sidewalks. Even if those people in the suburbs suddenly transplanted to the inner city, it's not like they're going to automatically let their 7 year old run around the streets.

^

The situation were I grew up in Chicago was you could walk to the park, and walk to the corner store, and walk to school and stuff like that.  And you pretty much had your range, your block and maybe a few blocks around. Plus there was more of an age range, with young familys, middle aged folk and seniors on the same block. 

 

Back then people sat on their porches or in their back yards.  Not very private, but it was safe because people knew what was going on...eyes on the street, the urban village, and all that stuff. 

 

I also lived in suburban Louisville and it sucked.  The only good thing about it was a lot of hills and woods and creeks and stuff to get away in.  If I was stuck in one of these no-outlet Ohio plats I'd probably be some screwed teen even more than I was. 

 

Anyway, a digression.

 

Actually, the Monroe exchange (at sr 63) sits right on the county line.  The Middletown exchange (sr 122) sits about 1 mile inside Warren County.

 

Thanks, but this does make my point on how the county line isnt super-relevant as the growth is straddling it and crossing it, and whats important is really the freeway and the interchanges.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Right now, suburbia is winning out, probably due to schools first..

Something must be luring people there, right?

 

I saw a PBS show many months ago on the history of New Orleans. It may provide an answer to your question...

 

NO was built initially on about 1 square mile of high ground, surrounded by swamp land as far as anyone could go. As the population grew, there was no room to build new housing. So you ended up with everyone of all socio-economic classes living on top of each other - doctors next to dock workers, jazz artists next to business owners, etc. Due to the lack of dry, buildable land, there was no option but to squeeze everyone in. The show attributed this forced melting pot to the great creative juice of the city during the late 19th and early 20th century. Kids all attended the same schools, and all classes intermingled like no other place in America.

 

Then they developed the pumps that allowed drainage of the swamps around the city (specifically,to the north around lake Pont.). As soon as the land was dry and buildable, the people with money began to flee the crowded city and to establish neighborhoods of their own kind. Turned out the local citizens were just like the rest of the country.. they wanted small enclaves of their own type of people. Professionals did not want to live next to dock workers. The white population fled in such numbers that the city schools today are approx 90% African-American. The show attributes the "drying up" of the creative juices of NO to this mass migration of people.

 

Similar thing happens in NYC... people strive to segregate themselves from others socio-economically whenever possible.

 

So, if the show's argument is correct, it's the desire of people to surround themselves with similar, like-minded people that may be driving the growth of Ohio suburbia. Yes, parents want good schools. But isn't this another way of saying we want our kids to interact with a certain type of other kids? Sure, people in Ohio seem to really want *new* houses. But isn't this another way of saying we want to be with younger people (28-35) who have achieved a position in society that allows them to buy a new house? Sure, people claim they want "fresh air and room to run around in", but isn't this another way saying they want a (perceived) small, secure place with "safe" people like themselves?

 

If the PBS show was right, the mass herds of people just want to live with neighbors who are just like they are.

I agree that people have always wanted to segregate themselves, but that is certainly achievable within urban boundaries.  That's the reason Hyde Park, Mt Adams, Clifton, Northside, Over the Rhine, and Price Hill are all so DIFFERENT from each other.  People have always segregated themselves.  The shift to living is lifeless car-centric sprawl is something different. 

Initially I believe it entirely had to do with an escape from horrific pollution that plagued most cities.  Who wouldn't want to move out to the suburbs after WWII.  But the pollution had been cleaned up, and my theory is that the mass exodus in the 1990s was just a result of complacency...sort of meaning they haven't tasted the forbidden fruit of city life.

^ OK, I'll bite... where do the young, 30is office workers with small children congregate in Cincinnati?  Where do they buy if they want to live amoungst like people.

^ OK, I'll bite... where do the young, 30is office workers with small children congregate in Cincinnati?  Where do they buy if they want to live amoungst like people.

 

Well, I was referring to the past, in which case I'd probably say Walnut Hills area, or potentially Price Hill.  Today, unfortunately, that place is suburbia.  It doesn't necessarily have to be though.  Regardless, people were and are segregating themselves.

 

One interesting progression I'm noticing is that people in their teens and 20s (myself included) tend to want more inclusionary places.  People are moving back into the cities across the nation.  And they're not doing it to force black people out (like I've heard stated numerous times) but rather to be with them and learn about different cultures. 

 

Interesting times we live in.

One interesting progression I'm noticing is that people in their teens and 20s (myself included) tend to want more inclusionary places.  People are moving back into the cities across the nation.

 

I'm just thinking out loud right now, and maybe you have some thoughts...

 

Yes, people all across the nation are moving back into cities.  But who and why?  I suspect it's people without children.  This would be young professionals (many buying condos) and empty nesters (condos again). While some people with children are moving into cities, I suspect that most people with children still prefer to live outside a city.  And since Ohio families seem to marry at a higher rate than the rest of the nation, and marry younger, and especially have more children younger, I wonder if the demographics really put an upper limit on how many people will move back into the city?

 

And do people with children want to be inclusive?  I know I did before I had children, and I really enjoy all the activities of a downtown, but with 2 small children, I now find myself wanting to escape a lot more than I did before children.  My life today is pretty dull... work, do homework with kids, run them to various places, etc.  I rarely get time to myself with all the demands placed on me. I get out to some social activity (concert, club, museum, etc) only about once every 2 months.  I really wish it was more, but babysitters can be more expensive than the night out with my wife.  So since I have kids, I have no time or money to be inclusive.  I often just want the world to go away. 

 

Just some idle thoughts, no conclussions really.

 

Any thoughts from a young person?

 

CincyDad, have you ever seen this site: http://www.citykin.com/

I was just going to recomend that.  We should get that guy on this forum

People need to realize that their "little pieces of country" are BS and unsustainable. There are only no pieces or big pieces. Either you have a white collar job and live in a city or inner ring 'burb, or you go with the full rural lifestyle working as a farmer, doing odd jobs, schoolteaching, in a coal mine or at a local store/restaurant/bar. Both are fine lifestyles, but this "in the middle" stuff of living in ribbon development/flag lots and burning up their lives driving to faraway office parks and big-box stores is stressful, wasteful, unfulfilling and unhealthy.

Says you. I don't mean to call you out individually, GCrites80s, but I think that that exemplifies the one-sided perspective we urban enthusiasts often express when talking about suburbia and sprawl. UrbanOhio is pretty realistic compared to some other groups, but still I would remind:

 

Suburbanites are not going to wake up one day and realize that they hate their lives.

 

"Stressful" and "unfulfilling" (and so on) is how many of us may view the suburban lifestyle, but I'd bet the average suburbanite is pretty happy.  Two cars and a big house with a big yard 10 or 15 minutes' drive from amenities is what they want. Perhaps we can make something of a case when it comes to childhood development, as C-Dawg has attempted, but that's not cut and dried.  I'm a product of childhood in suburban sprawl (Beavercreek, just to bring it back to the topic at hand), and life has turned out just fine for me.  I might also add that I was never particularly miserable with life in the suburbs growing up, nor were most of my peers.  And for every unhappy person (kid or adult) in the suburbs, there's probably an unhappy counterpart in the city.

 

The point is that city proponents won't win by trying to convince suburbanites that they live a terrible lifestyle.  It's definitely not going to get us anywhere in a place like SW Ohio, where sprawl pretty clearly seems to have the upper hand right now.

 

(Just my cautionary opinion. Not really pointing fingers at people here!)

^ OK, I'll bite... where do the young, 30is office workers with small children congregate in Cincinnati?  Where do they buy if they want to live amoungst like people.

 

I would think most of the neighborhoods in Cincinnati have people in their 30s with small children.  I know there were several in Pleasant Ridge, and I know some westsiders in the city limits who either have kids already or have one on the way.  My husband and I have a condo on the edge of OTR/downtown.  There are a few 30 something couples with babies in our building.  When we have kids, we do not plan on moving out of the city limits.  We plan on staying in our condo for as long as possible.

And do people with children want to be inclusive?  I know I did before I had children, and I really enjoy all the activities of a downtown, but with 2 small children, I now find myself wanting to escape a lot more than I did before children.  My life today is pretty dull... work, do homework with kids, run them to various places, etc.  I rarely get time to myself with all the demands placed on me. I get out to some social activity (concert, club, museum, etc) only about once every 2 months.  I really wish it was more, but babysitters can be more expensive than the night out with my wife.  So since I have kids, I have no time or money to be inclusive.  I often just want the world to go away. 

 

Just some idle thoughts, no conclussions really.

 

Any thoughts from a young person?

 

 

 

I gotta say that what you describe above is what makes me think about never having children.

Maybe suburbs/exurbs exist the way they do because people don't like bars/retail/other fun stuff right in front of their face, knowing they wouldn't have time to enjoy it anyway. That makes a lot of sense to me. Out of sight, out of mind.

 

I want to have kids - but I hate to say it: I don't like the idea of giving up my life to cater to kids. My 20 y/o cousin flat out said that he doesn't ever want to have kids because its less money for him.

Exurbs exist because the people who grow America's food can't live in the city centers. They develop and turn into micropolitan areas because the local culture florishes and people like to live where they were raised. I don't think that exurbs have anything to do with flight from the city and the tendency for sprawl in large cities like Cincinnati and Dayton. Exurbs experience sprawl of their own, eating up valuable farmland to build spaced out houses that look the same.

How many people in the exurbs grow food? please...

You just said exurban farmland is being eaten up.

I would say PRidge is a pretty hot fam. neighborhood right now. Hyde Park and Mt. Lookout (and probably Oakley) continue to have sizable families though their relative lack of affordability has pushed some to PRidge, Oakley and even Mad'ville.

Majority of people in P-Ridge either move there and buy a "starter home" or move there as empty nesters. At least that's what I noticed when we sold our house and talked prospective buyers. I lived there when I was about 16 and there was only one person my age on the street. Ridgewood had a lot of teenagers though ( little neighborhood ran by Columbia Township).

WDTN-TV added to Cincinnati cable channels

Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 10:22am EDT

 

WDTN-TV Channel 2 will reach a new audience beginning Tuesday when the local NBC affiliate joins the Cincinnati-area cable lineup.  Time Warner Cable will begin carrying WDTN-TV in Butler, Warren and Clinton counties in the Cincinnati area Tuesday and can be viewed on the digital access tier on channel 902.

 

Read full article here:

http://www.bizjournals.com/dayton/stories/2009/03/30/daily27.html

^

heh...it used to be WLW-D,  the Dayton channel of WLW tv.

I-75’s ceaseless makeover to include new interchanges

Line between Dayton and Cincinnati blurs

Business Courier of Cincinnati - by Jon Newberry

 

In the midst of a deep and dark recession, the Interstate 75 corridor between I-275 north of Cincinnati and I-675 south of Dayton is dotted with points of light.  rom GE Aviation’s office complex at Union Centre Boulevard to the planned Austin Pike interchange just north of the Warren County line, numerous private and public construction projects are under way that are pumping billions of dollars into the economies of Butler, Warren and southern Montgomery counties.

 

In between, a rash of new hospitals and health care facilities have opened in recent months amid new retail outlets, distribution centers, manufacturing and office facilities.  “What’s driving development along I-75 is what’s driving on 75,” said Leonard Robinson, president and owner of Robinson Inc. Realtors in Middletown. Development follows transportation arteries, whether it’s rivers, railroads or highways, he said. “Our time happens to be now.”

 

Growth has been burgeoning since the Union Centre Boulevard interchange opened in December 1997 – the first new I-75 interchange in Southwest Ohio since the interstate opened to traffic in 1960. Since then development has marched northward to the Tylersville Road exit and then Monroe and Middletown, Robinson said. Meanwhile, development is also pushing south from Dayton, a process that will get a boost with the completion of another new interchange at Austin Pike, just south of I-675 in Montgomery County.

 

Read full article here:

http://cincinnati.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/stories/2009/07/13/story15.html

Dear God.

Joe Kramer, executive vice president of Lebanon-based developer Henkle Schueler & Associates, referred to the Austin Pike area as “Dayton’s West Chester.”

 

From where I sit, West Chester is "Dayton's West Chester".

Development follows transportation arteries, whether it’s rivers, railroads or highways, he said.

 

This has been true for as long as humans have been building cities, regardless of the mode of transportation. Build roads and freeways in the exurbs, and development will follow. Build streetcars and subways in the city, and development will also follow. It's a question of which transit modes and development patterns are sustainable over the long-term.

I get depressed whenever this thread pops up on the front page....

The I-75 mainline between I-275 and I-675 was originally planned to be four lanes in each direction. 

I have faith that at some point in our lifetimes there will be a commuter rail connecting Cincinnati to Dayton, and the millions poured into development along the very important corridor won't have been in vain. 

I agree.

The I-75 mainline between I-275 and I-675 was originally planned to be four lanes in each direction.

 

It's also obvious to see that there were local/express lanes planned near Cincinnati and Dayton, evidenced by the wider-than-usual medians and bridge designs.

There is a concious effort to position Austin Road as the northern counterpart to Union Centre.  It's sort of exciting to see this linear city develop, but I kind of wish it would have some height, too, with some high rises adding verticle accents at the interchanges (like Schaumburg outside of Chicago or Watterson City and Plainview outside of Louisville).

^I'd much rather see more development happening in Dayton and Cincinnati, rather than between both.  As for Schaumburg... yuck.

Seems like a lot of spin.  Sure there is sprawling development happening between the two metros but nothing like what I have seen in other cities.  I travel quite a bit for my day job and some of the current sprawl development throughout the country is insane.