>It's also obvious to see that there were local/express lanes planned near Cincinnati and Dayton, evidenced by the wider-than-usual medians and bridge designs.

 

Actually the stretch between I-275 and I-675 was planned to have 2x2x2x2 lanes, with center lanes being express.  This was apparently before any 4 lane expressway had been built anywhere in the world, and planners feared that 4 parallel lanes were unsafe.  This was in the later 1940's when states were planning piecemeal turnpikes.   

 

It's quite interesting to read about pre-interstate highway planning -- I think the planners knew what it really took to make a safe highway early on, but they were already so incredibly expensive that the cost of building the safest highways possible was politically unachievable.  That is why there are so many left-side ramps, inadequate merges, narrow breakdown shoulders, and no shoulders on bridges. 

^ I worry about something similar happening with current high-speed rail plans. I think right now we're in the early "turnpike" phase, with each state or group of states more-or-less doing their own thing, with varying ideas of what even counts as high-speed rail. What's needed are consistent federal guidelines and investment so that these piecemeal bits can eventually form a comprehensive system.

Actually the stretch between I-275 and I-675 was planned to have 2x2x2x2 lanes, with center lanes being express.  This was apparently before any 4 lane expressway had been built anywhere in the world, and planners feared that 4 parallel lanes were unsafe.  This was in the later 1940's when states were planning piecemeal turnpikes. 

 

It's quite interesting to read about pre-interstate highway planning -

 

I've done quite a bit of research on Dayton highway development but would like to dig into the pre-interstate proposals for highways between Dayton & Cincy...do you (or anyone else) have sources for that?

 

Seems like a lot of spin.  Sure there is sprawling development happening between the two metros but nothing like what I have seen in other cities.

 

Things are happening, just not very fast.  Probably the most impressive bit of growth is at the Tylersville interchange, with that new hospital and office development. 

 

 

 

From the April 16, 1957 Cincinnati Times-Star:

 

What's amazing is the figure 1 to 1.5 million more per mile -- they essentially had no idea how much it would actually cost to build, or they in fact did and were searching to bury that true cost by giving a per mile figure instead of the overall figure.  Using an online inflation calculator, the 4-lane setup would have added $200-300 million to the price in today's money.   

 

Also, the Cincinnati > Conneaut highway was what became designated I-71.

 

Sounds like a similar arrangement as the New Jersey Turnpike between Trenton and NYC, although it seems unclear of the "express" portion of the roadway would truly be express lanes like on Chicago's Dan Ryan Expressway, or would also have on/off ramps at every interchange like the Turnpike. The split arrangement has the advantage of allowing one section to be kept free of trucks, and when used in combination with variable signage, allows one section to remain open if the other is closed due to a major accident.

I think the 401 around Toronto has express lanes, too.  But, yes the extra-wide medians on I-75 are noticeable.  One place where this is the case is the climb up the hill from the Miami Valley between Moraine and the Dayton Mall (OH 725 interchange.  I used to think there might have been engineering or aesthetic considerations on that segment.

 

 

    It was known early on that a 4 lane divided highway, 2 lanes each way, is the safest arrangement for cruising in automobiles. Dividing the highway minimizes head on collisions from crossing the center, and making two lanes in each direction instead of one allows safe passing.

 

    Ideally, there would be no highways wider than 4 lanes. Two completly separate highways would be safer than a highway wider than 4 lanes, and also allow more access.

 

    Most of the interstate system was designed for 4 lanes total, and much of it is still that way.

 

    The interstates somehow got out of hand in some areas.

 

Sounds like a similar arrangement as the New Jersey Turnpike between Trenton and NYC, although it seems unclear of the "express" portion of the roadway would truly be express lanes like on Chicago's Dan Ryan Expressway, or would also have on/off ramps at every interchange like the Turnpike. The split arrangement has the advantage of allowing one section to be kept free of trucks, and when used in combination with variable signage, allows one section to remain open if the other is closed due to a major accident.

 

Yeah, Jake that's what I was referring to. The express and local setup was planned for the entire length between Dayton and Cincinnati, but was only constructed on the 'exurban' fringes where the right-of-way is considerably larger. I think it would have worked out much better in the long-term than constructing additional lanes, but with the new spans going up along Interstate 75, it has all but eliminated any possibility of the express/local setup from occurring.

The only thing that's left is to close to prison. Close CVG and the Dayton airports and make one far behind the big jesus and the prison. They we may have something.

Im wondering if the prison acts as sort of a pyschological barrier to land development in the immediate vicinity.

 

@@@@

 

Took a drive out to the Middletown exit today, and its impressive seeing those Nyer signs up and the roadwork east of I-75.  it seems Nyer has some big plans for that interchange considering the extend of the holdings (if the signs are any indication).  Has anyone seen any site plans?

 

 

Panel: Success of region tied to I-75

By Jacob Dirr, Tuesday, July 14, 2009

 

The Dayton and Cincinnati regions can no longer think of themselves as separate entities, but instead as part of a larger geographic area stretching to Columbus and Lexington, a Tri-State economic development expert said Tuesday.  “In the last five years it has become obvious to the world that regions are much larger,” said Mark Policinski, executive director of the Ohio-Kentucky-Indiana Regional Council of Governments, or OKI.

 

Policinski spoke Tuesday at a regional development forum, hosted by the Dayton Business Journal and sister paper Cincinnati Business Courier.  A three-member panel — also including Leonard Robinson, partner at Robinson Lawton Kent Realtors in Middletown, and Bob Steinbach, director of regional initiatives at the Miami Valley Regional Planning Commission — spoke in front of about 350 audience members.

 

Read full article here:

http://dayton.bizjournals.com/dayton/stories/2009/07/13/daily8.html

That's a great article.

Policinski said the bigger “region” is growing at historically high rates, but “governments’ absolute inability to grasp partnerships with the private sector” is inhibiting economic development.

 

“We have been beating on this drum for five years,” Policinski said. “You would think you are asking them to do the impossible.”

 

Meanwhile, around the country, private-public partnerships are flourishing and leaving southwest Ohio at an economic disadvantage, he said.

 

Does anyone have an example by what he means by these partnerships, or where theyve had problems making them happen?  He identifies an issue but doesnt give examples to illustrate it.

 

Does anyone have an example by what he means by these partnerships, or where theyve had problems making them happen?  He identifies an issue but doesnt give examples to illustrate it.

 

I wish he would have been more specific as well.

 

Panelists reached a consensus about future importance on passenger and freight rail, along the I-75 corridor, as a means for getting trucks off the highway.

 

Now let's actually do it and not just talk about it.

I found some stuff on what Middletown has planned for their interchange.  This is probably in direct competition with Austin Road.

 

One of the things the planning documents mentioned was that there might be a future Manchester Road interchange.  Now that could be interesting.

 

The northern part of “Daytonnati” showing the interchanges as growth nodes

 

 

The plans for the Renaissance District (what they are calling the place)

 

 

 

Whats nice is they are working greenways and bike/walking paths into the planning, so this isn’t too bad for auto-oriented development. 

 

Cincys Al Neyer is the lead developer, and here are some aeriels showing what a juicy development opportunity this is.  OH 122 is being widened through the site. 

 

 

 

…particulalary this one, since freeway frontage/visibility seems to a preferred site for new construction. 

 

 

The Neyer/Middletown city gov. relationship could be an example of a public/private partnership

 

 

Montgomery County is going to propose two other sites beside the Ausitin Blvd site mentioned, but I really think the Monroe location would fit in withe the slightly sleazy vibe of that interchange:

 

Warren County submits several sites for new racetrack

Franklin, Middletown, Monroe, Lebanon and Mason identify possible locations for raceway with video gaming

By Ed Richter, Saturday, July 25, 2009

 

The race is on for a new location with high interstate visibility for the Lebanon Raceway as the first installment of the $65 million licensing fee has to be ponied up by Sept. 15, with the rest due in 2010.  Among several sites submitted by the Warren County Economic Development Department are two in Middletown: One has more than 130 acres and is located west of Interstate 75 and south of South Towne Boulevard. The other has more than 230 acres and is east of I-75 off Union Road south of Ohio 122 in Turtlecreek Twp.

 

Mike Robinette, city economic development director, said he didn’t think either site was “a longshot.” “These are two very competitive sites that meet the criteria,” he said.  Both sites, midway between Cincinnati and Dayton, would have lower land costs and a newly improved interchange that is under construction.  Other sites submitted by the county’s economic development office are in Franklin, Monroe, Lebanon and Mason.

 

Read full article here:

http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/dayton-news/warren-county-submits-several-sites-for-new-racetrack-220626.html

^Very nice post, Jeffery.

 

Sorry to support sprawl here for a moment, but I noticed something that caught my eye. Is there really a proposed Manchester Road intersection? If so, that's great!!!!!!!!!

 

It's been needed for years now. There is no good way to access north Middletown from the highway, and an interchange there could really act as a catalyst for growth for downtown Middletown (since coming from University Ave. area is, IMO, the best way to appraoch downtown), Miami U-Middletown (and make it a more viable alternative for the suburbanites in Monroe, Springboro, West Chester, Lebanon, etc. instead of other community colleges or, Miami's thing they have at the VOA), and funnel some sprawl over to Madison twp north and west of Middletown, which would have residents that would likely use the north and central portions of town for shopping, entertainment, work, etc.

 

This is great!!!!!!!!!!!

 

^ "The Neyer/Middletown city gov. relationship could be an example of a public/private partnership"

 

Am I understanding this correctly... it seems like each I-75 interchange between Hamilton (sr129) and the new Austin Road interchange has been designated to one primary developer.  It's as if the developers all got together and said....'you take this intechange, i'll take a different one'.  This seems rather monopolistic to me.  But it's what I would expect from the area politions.

 

The Manchester Road interchange was just a mention in those Renaissance planning documents, not sure how "Real" it is, or whether its just something notional from the Middeltown planning staff.

 

####

 

As for developers and interchanges, it does seem that there is one lead or major developer active at certain interchanges (Henkle-Schueler is the one for the southern Franklin intechange), but they dont totally control all properties.  Even at Austin Road, RG Properties shares the play with Oberer and Miller-Valentine and Hutchins.

 

 

^ The Middletown Manchester road interchange has been talked about ever since I was a little kid, so 35+ years.  When Manchester road was widened from Middletown (Brieil Blvd) out to Cin-Day Rd (just shy of I-75), an interchange was again subject of much speculation.

 

The specific Manchester rd/I-75 area has a number of houses bunched right at it.  There is farmland around it, but the proposed interchange spot contains a number of houses.

 

My Dad who followed the talk said it would not happen because the cost to buy out the property owners will be too high.

 

When I first started working at my current location, I met a lady who happens to live in one of those houses.  I asked if there was talk about adding an interchange at Manchester Rd.  She gave me the strangest look like this was the first time she had heard of such a proposal, and then said as much.

 

So while it probably makes sense to have an interchange at Manchester Rd, the logistics of putting one there makes me wonder if a different location could be picked, a mile or so up or down the highway, and a special access road over to Cin-Day Rd be built.

 

---------

 

Also keep in mind that in SW Ohio, new interstate interchanges seem to be designed to promote development more so than to ease regular traffic flow.  There is probably more opportunity for development either north or south of Manchester Rd than there is at Manchester Rd crossing.  So I would expect any new "Middletown North" interchange to be built elsewhere.

:-o  zoicks, just look at how these corn fields and tree stands have been squared off. you can just picture the greedy stupid sprawl developers rubbing their hands together, "mwuh hahaaa, i must have thee credit approval to fulfill my master plaaans!"

 

A week ago I posted the plan(s) for the adjacent Towne Mall redevelopment over at the Projects\SW Ohio Projects\ Towne Mall redevelopment thread.  No one has commented on it, so maybe no one saw it.

 

Here is the Middletown Journal newspaper article on it, showing their proposed layouts....

 

http://www.middletownjournal.com/news/middletown-business-news/3-concepts-presented-for-towne-mall-redevelopment-215090.html

 

 

Sorry I missed your post on the Towne Mall thread.

 

Anyways, since I'm too lazy to go over there, I will say that I followed your link and all of these plans seem extremely impractical, especially in today's economy.

 

What Middletown really needs (and again, this is coming from an urbanist, really, so I apologize) is a ..... uh....... LARGER MALL (there, I said it).

 

Anyways, the area really is in need of such a facility, knowing this from living there for a decade myself, and there is ample room to expand to the north, especially if the well-built Meijer facility was incorporated into the new structure. The center could probably hold down four 150,000+ sq. ft. tenats easily, most likely being El-Bee, Sears, Macy's, and JCP. This would not include Meijer, which could easily remain at the center, and also even encouraging Danbarry Cinemas to build a new facility at the current "main entrance" to the mall and convert their current facility to the dollar-saver format. Yes, they would have to demolish the current Sears store, along with the new Staples and Aldi buildings, but it is doable. The current El-Bee and the former Dillard's could also be converted to an outdoor style, a la Kenwood Towne Centre, with stores like MC sporting goods, Barnes and Noble, Old Navy, Best Buy, etc. filling the outside.

 

There is a real market for this, despite the economy and  major developers' convictions that "freeze-your-butt-off-in-a-cheaply-built-plaster-land centers" are so much better. Sorry to also be so sprawl-ish, but believe it or not, Towne Mall is really the only mall besides the former Salem Mall that I ever became really attached to. I would really hate to see Middletown waste it like this.

What Middletown really needs (and again, this is coming from an urbanist, really, so I apologize) is a ..... uh....... LARGER MALL (there, I said it).

 

 

Had you not been so lazy and read thru the other threads on retail in the MT(Middletown) area, you would have seen that I made that exact statement on the Monroe Cincinnati Premium Outlet Mall thread.  Others agreeded. And you knwo how dearly I want to stop all urban expansion, particularly in Middletown/Monroe.

 

In a long post on that thread, I said the problem with MT and surrounding areas was that the developers thought 'small'.  Towne Mall should have be 3x as big as it was.  It was the only mall for 20 miles in any direction, in an area of 400k+ people when it was built.  But the developers chose to focus on the immediate MT crowd, not the larger Butler/Warren crowd. Time has shown that they really blew that call.

 

I said the developers of the new outlet mall in Monroe are doing the same thing... making a retail area so small that it is not a destination shopping center, even for people in northern Cincy and South Dayton.  It will start out with a bang as everyone flocks there to see what's there, but they will be disappointed with the relatively small number of stores.  Soon fllow of people will dry up as shoppers return to the much larger Dayton Mall and Tri-county Mall.  In the end, only the locals (Monroe, Middletown) will go, and it could end up going the same was as Towne Mall after 5 years.

This is such an interesting thread. A couple of months ago my mom and I drove from Columbus to West Chester down 71 to 275 then back up 75 for the obvious reason of shopping at IKEA. Anyway, afterwords, we drove a half an hour from West Chester to Centerville to visit some family and then I thought to myself.... It takes longer for me to drive from my house in Canal Winchester (SE side of Columbus) to my dads house in Powell (NW side of Columbus) than it takes for me to drive from the outskirts of Cincy to Dayton. It's pretty much straight metro now from one city to the other. Now I know its been said before and I doubt this will ever happen in our lifetime but if they built a new international airport right in the middle of Cincy and Dayton, that would change everything. I think it's the only thing that can save Dayton and it's downward spiral and take Cincinnati off auto pilot. I never could understand and there is no excuse for why Cincy's airport is so far into KY. Dayton's airport is basically pointless between Columbus and Indy. This could change Ohio period.

Dayton's airport serves a million person metro.  It is not "pointless."  That's like me saying Columbus' airport is pointless as it's between Plain City and Newark.

I have to agree. Dayton's airport is far from pointless. It's one of the biggest reasons why CVG has been forced to cut fares, which has been a huge help to me. Not everyone will drive 2 hours to Columbus or Indy, but a 55 minute drive to Dayton is not an unrealistic departure from many peoples' trips to CVG.

 

 

:-o  zoicks, just look at how these corn fields and tree stands have been squared off. you can just picture the greedy stupid sprawl developers rubbing their hands together, "mwuh hahaaa, i must have thee credit approval to fulfill my master plaaans!"

 

I know this comment was mostly for laughs, but I disagree with the sentiment.

 

Developers can only build what the local zoning code allows. The people building strip malls along I-75 aren't any more or less greedy than people building condos and skyscrapers within Cincinnati city limits. The stuff is sh!t because that's what the property is zoned for and that's how the transportation engineers design the roads. Private developers often have shockingly little control over the process, regardless of how convenient it is to turn them into the evil bogeymen.

 

That being said, yes it would be nice if some of these developers were proposing New Urbanist town centers instead of boring outlet malls. But not everyone is willing to put up with the years of legal battles with local residents necessary to get a property rezoned for high density mixed-use development.

C-dub, Dayton and Columbus are in a price war now, and we also forced Cincy (READ- Delta) to drop fares. It's far from being a pointless airport.

 

 

I doubt you'd ever see an airport between the two cities.  Land costs would be astronomical and the NIMBY movement opposing it would be ferocious.

My family does 75% of its flying in and out of Dayton, and we are Cincinnatians. With $400 fares, CVG can suck it.

 

EDIT: Modified to be SFW

This is such an interesting thread. A couple of months ago my mom and I drove from Columbus to West Chester down 71 to 275 then back up 75 for the obvious reason of shopping at IKEA. Anyway, afterwords, we drove a half an hour from West Chester to Centerville to visit some family and then I thought to myself.... It takes longer for me to drive from my house in Canal Winchester (SE side of Columbus) to my dads house in Powell (NW side of Columbus) than it takes for me to drive from the outskirts of Cincy to Dayton. It's pretty much straight metro now from one city to the other. Now I know its been said before and I doubt this will ever happen in our lifetime but if they built a new international airport right in the middle of Cincy and Dayton, that would change everything. I think it's the only thing that can save Dayton and it's downward spiral and take Cincinnati off auto pilot. I never could understand and there is no excuse for why Cincy's airport is so far into KY. Dayton's airport is basically pointless between Columbus and Indy. This could change Ohio period.

 

In the 1960's the plan was to put Cincinnati International north of the city, but NKY won out for a number of reasons.

If it was all one state im sure it would consolidate. Ky would fight tooth and nail to prevent another airport in the region.

Dayton United Way rejects Cincy merger

Business Courier of Cincinnati

 

United Way of Greater Dayton has nixed a merger with United Way of Greater Cincinnati and United Way organizations in Butler and Warren counties.

 

The United Ways had met in June to continued talks for the proposed merger. In the meantime the United Way of Greater Cincinnati and the United Fund of Dearborn and Ohio counties, in southeastern Indiana, merged effective April 1.  The Dayton organization said Tuesday it will remain autonomous, and not proceed with a proposed merger to combine with the three other independent United Ways.

 

Read full article here:

http://cincinnati.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/stories/2009/08/03/daily25.html

Cincinnati had picked Blue Ash for the replacement for Lunken, but CVG got more of the WWII investment and it was further from the development at the time, Blue Ash has quite a bit of 50s and 60s development. The Dayton hinterland extends quite a bit north - especially since there isn't a major airport until Fort Wayne, Toledo and really Detroit. Whereas Cincy's hinterland is in some ways small but is generally to the south and lesser to the east and west.

A new airport between Cincinnati and Dayton would be a smart idea, except that there is probably never going to be a need to build it.  Air traffic is only going to continue to drop off as fuel prices rise.  Modern high speed rail would virtually eliminate the need for short flights, significantly reducing overall air traffic.

Cincinnati did not buy nearly enough property in Blue Ash for the size airport it would eventually support.  CVG is situated on roughly 6 square miles of property -- there's no way there would have been political support for that kind of purchase back in the 1940's. 

 

CVG occupies so much land it would stretch from the Ohio River to Cincinnati State and North Avondale, and east/west between Price Hill and Mt. Adams, so basically all of Cincinnati's city proper. 

The I-75 mainline between I-275 and I-675 was originally planned to be four lanes in each direction.

 

It's also obvious to see that there were local/express lanes planned near Cincinnati and Dayton, evidenced by the wider-than-usual medians and bridge designs.

 

Actually the stretch between I-275 and I-675 was planned to have 2x2x2x2 lanes, with center lanes being express.  This was apparently before any 4 lane expressway had been built anywhere in the world, and planners feared that 4 parallel lanes were unsafe.  This was in the later 1940's when states were planning piecemeal turnpikes.   

 

It's quite interesting to read about pre-interstate highway planning -- I think the planners knew what it really took to make a safe highway early on, but they were already so incredibly expensive that the cost of building the safest highways possible was politically unachievable.  That is why there are so many left-side ramps, inadequate merges, narrow breakdown shoulders, and no shoulders on bridges. 

 

I can confirm that the original construction of I-75 (As US 25 relocated BTW) included provisions for the express lanes (dual-dual). The typical sections I have seen in the original plans are 3+2*+2*+3 (* labeled as Future). There was ample offset between the 3 lanes constructed and the future express lanes. The full build out would have looked exactly like I-271 near Cleveland. The provisions for express lanes were constructed between Glendale Milford Road and Tylersville Roads, and then between SR 73 and Moraine.

^

That was pretty perceptive...that they forecast growth (hence the need for more lanes) so far out of Dayton and Cincy as far back as the 1950s.

 

 

inre the extra wide medians, does anyone know if any of the various rail plans are considering its use?

inre the extra wide medians, does anyone know if any of the various rail plans are considering its use?

 

I highly doubt it.

The growth between Dayton and Cincy is just sprawl. Sprawl that is consuming finite resources and sucking business from the core cities. If the Dayton and Cincy metros had strong population growth than it would make a little more sense that new land needs to be built on. But, if you calculate the growth rate of both metros together its almost 0. To much moving from one location to another. Focus the finances and efforts back into the core areas. The Cities of Cincy and Dayton have much more to offer to potential companies and residents than the sprawlville that is being created between to two. The Brookings report that was done about a year ago really focuses on returning the bulk of the state investments back to the urban core cities and letting the townships and sprawling suburban communities take a back seat in the future.

Heres some speculation on what mass transit could look like between Cincy and Dayton in the I-75 corridor, Butler & Warren County, accepting the reality of existing development and trends until peak oil hits (and the game changes).

 

Speculating on Transit in the Cincinnati-Dayton Metroplex

 

 

The growth between Dayton and Cincy is just sprawl. Sprawl that is consuming finite resources and sucking business from the core cities. If the Dayton and Cincy metros had strong population growth than it would make a little more sense that new land needs to be built on. But, if you calculate the growth rate of both metros together its almost 0. To much moving from one location to another. Focus the finances and efforts back into the core areas. The Cities of Cincy and Dayton have much more to offer to potential companies and residents than the sprawlville that is being created between to two. The Brookings report that was done about a year ago really focuses on returning the bulk of the state investments back to the urban core cities and letting the townships and sprawling suburban communities take a back seat in the future.

 

Some of the growth there is taking growth away from the core cities, but things like distribution facilities and certain companies that refuse to locate anywhere other than a suburban office complex are not things that would be going into our core cities.  As much as I dislike the sprawl happening along the I-75 corridor I think it's probably inevitable for it to continue.

 

What we should be focusing on is connecting this development with high quality transit options like light rail, high-speed rail and express bus routes that utilize HOV lanes on the interstate.  Combine this with some well-designed TOD and you might have something there.  The great thing about the I-75 corridor is that it's also a great rail corridor for both freight and passenger traffic.

My bad! I really had no idea that Dayton's airport had it going on like that. Hey, good for Dayton and I apologize if offended anyone.

 

 

In the 1960's the plan was to put Cincinnati International north of the city, but NKY won out for a number of reasons.

 

If you don't mind, can you please elaborate for me as to why the plans from the 1960's didn't pan out? It just seems to me that Ohio lost out on a lot of $$$!

It's been mentioned further up the thread. Cincy needed to replace flood-prone Lunken Field, and Blue Ash was the proposed option. But even Blue Ash had limitations on how much it would be able to expand in the future. I don't think it would ever have been able to reach the capacity that CVG has now, at least not without wiping out a few hundred homes and businesses.

 

Kentucky officials, to their credit, knew a major airport would be a huge cash cow, and saw the opportunity to act. They built a large airport in a rural area with plenty of room for future expansion, and that provided a viable alternative to Blue Ash. The rest is history.

 

Compared to major cities like NYC and Chicago, CVG is still pretty convenient to downtown as long as I-75 isn't jammed up. CVG also has plenty of room for future growth, Delta's current issues notwithstanding.

 

If Kentucky really wants to be proactive again, they'd start serious planning for a light rail link from the airport to downtown Covington, with provisions for future expansion into Cincinnati. COAST's charter amendment won't apply to the project, and when Cincinnati sees a successful rail link between Covington and the airport -- along with a streetcar line between Covington and Newport, also with provisions for expansion into Cincy -- Cincinnati will be tripping over itself to repeal the charter amendment (if it passed) and get on board.

Thanks for the explanation.

Land was far cheaper in NKY so they could eventually get a big footprint. Also, the army air force used the CVG as the primary air depot during WWII, which is when most of America's airports that eventually became dominant were sited.

Did they really do depot maintenance there?  I know it had a wartime origin but didnt know it was an air depot.

There are three general aviaiton airports between Ciny and Dayton:  Hamilton, Middleton, and the one at Austin Road.  I think the Middletown one was actually used during WWII in conjunction with aircraft manufuacturing as they build a spotter or trainer plain in Middletown for the military.