Springfield is still in Dayton's media market, though I think it might be developing closer connections to Columbus. 

I wouldn't get my knickers in a knot about West Chester. Every city that is growing has a suburban area like that. Indy, Cbus, and KC are no exception. In fact, some have it worse. Overland Park is arguable the true business center of the KC region these days.  I'm not saying this migration of business is good for Cincy, but it certainly isn't a uniquely bad phenomenon

 

Obviously I'm happy that Indy's EA is fairly large, though that is only relevant to a limited number of things. I happen to think that the best general measure we've got is MSA, though even those contain significant regions (if not populations) that are only tangentially related to the core. (California is an odd case with MSA)

 

Cincinnati is ringed with other metros - Louisville, Lexington, Columbus, Dayton, Indianapolis. This, along with its status as the largest and traditionally most important city in the region, gives it a lot of those super-regional assets like IKEA and Kings Island. It's also why the Cincinnati EA isn't bigger, however.  Which would you rather have?

 

Speaking for myself, I prefer having Cincy so close.  That's one reason I live on the Cincy side of Montgomery County, makes for a shorter trip, though the traffic has been getting heavy (as was noted on the article on I-75).

 

 

A speak-up comment in today's Dayton Daily News supported 3C rail but was disappointed that he'd have to drive to downtown to get on the train since he lives "south of town" and driving is more convenient then parking downtown.

 

Is downtown Dayton really the center of population for the area?

^

Depends on how you define "area".  And that is a very good question.

^

Depends on how you define "area". And that is a very good question.

"Area" as in "where in the Dayton area would be the best (ie most central, most used) location for the main 3C station serving Dayton?"

Kettering would be more central to the metropolitan area, to be honest.  But downtown obviously should be the center for the 3C + D corridor.

Kettering would be more central to the metropolitan area, to be honest.  But downtown obviously should be the center for the 3C + D corridor.

True on both counts but unlike Sharonville or CUT, the track doesn't go through Kettering or any other suburb of Dayton that would be as easily accessible as downtown.  The second best place where the track runs would be downtown Miamisburg which can't compare to the transportation options available in downtown Dayton.  And the tracks are on the other side of the Great Miami from downtown Miamisburg.  So we're stuck with downtown Dayton whether we like it or not (for once).

 

The problem with Cin-Day is the leaders who value regionalism don't think of solutions big enough to tackle the problems associated with 60 minute commutes.

 

I think 3-C is using the old "Air Line" route, which is on the east side of the river (through downtown West Carrollton and Miamisburg), crosses the river to bypass Franklin, and across the river again through downtown Middletown.  But it veers off there and heads directly south toward Cincy, thus through that booming "West Chester" edge city area. Thats why I could see a good station location at, say, Tylersville Road.

 

To do high density commuter rail together with long distance passenger and heavy freight you'd need something like the old Burlington Route "racetrack" between Chicago and Aurora, highly engineered, three tracks, and  with advanced signals and traffic control. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not so bothered by the sprawl issues ... at least not like I used to be. I guess if I think about it, some of the reasons that float around my mind are:

 

1. Sociology 101 teaches us that the very thing that people flee for the 'burbs to escape from eventually make its way to the burbs.

2. We're already seeing a shift crime/poverty between the city and suburbs.

3. The Generation X'ers/Y'ers/Millennials generally prefer walkable communities with everything "close by."

4. Teenagers waiting longer to receive their drivers license (even in OH).

5. The younger generation having an appreciation for "one of a kind" and quirky shops/restaurants/bars/theaters, etc. Something the burbs typically lack.

6. Cincinnati seems to be moving in the right direction and at a decent pace. Mallory and Co. are good at recognizing what it takes to attract the youth, who will in return populate the city with offspring. Also, Mallory seems to shrug off opposition that handicapped previous political leaders.

 

Things that we need to get done ...

 

1. We MUST get high-speed rail from Cincy to Dayton ... too many commuters! I just drove from Cincy to Dayton and back the other week and that stretch of interstate looks the same as 75 between 275 Tri-Cty and Cross-Cty Hwy.

2. Create a unified government. The city boundaries are way too small to play such an important role! (I know Jeff's a big fan of this and I'm now a huge believer).

3. A lot of work needs to be done in terms of thinking regionally versus competitively in the tri-state.

4. We NEED to move forward with rail transit some way or another or we'll never operate at full potential.

5. In a perfect world, the rail stops between Cin-Day should be from Downtown to Downtown.

 

 

 

 

Ah, so the train will be on the line that runs right through downtown Miamisburg.

 

Interesting.  I wonder how HSR would work going through there multiple times a day.

 

I think 3-C is using the old "Air Line" route, which is on the east side of the river (through downtown West Carrollton and Miamisburg), crosses the river to bypass Franklin, and across the river again through downtown Middletown.  But it veers off there and heads directly south toward Cincy, thus through that booming "West Chester" edge city area. Thats why I could see a good station location at, say, Tylersville Road.

I thought the same thing about "West Chester - the center of it all" and wrote a post about putting a station near Union Center Blvd. (the new GE Aviation Engineering is right between I-75 and the tracks and IKEA is right across I-75 from there.)

 

When I looked at Union Centre's proximity to Sharonville and the considerable infrastructure already there I scrapped the post.

 

Here's the map.

 

Yellow lines indicate the rail tracks.

Blue is the new 1,400 employee GE Aviation Engineering complex.

Pink is IKEA.

Blood red lines are I-75.

Light green is a Cincinnati Marriott North.

Brown across the street is a Courtyard.

Light yellow caddy corner is a Residence Inn.

Black box at top is Lakota West High School.

The Volvo and Mercedes Benz dealers of this area are right there too.

Jeffery, how is the Dayton media covering this "merger" of sorts? The Enquirer has done several articles in past years about the growing connection to Dayton, and the growth in Butler and Warren counties.  Have any of the Dayton media outlets done similar stories? Also, what is the general feeling in Dayton about the increasing connection to Cincinnati? Personally, I think the average Cincinnatian is fairly indifferent to all of it, but perhaps that is because there is less to gain (no offense meant to Dayton, it's just the smaller city).  When I've been home, I have noticed a lot of cars with Dayton area license plates around Kenwood, Hyde Park, etc. Is the reverse also happening more in Dayton?

 

edale, not to jump in but the Dayton Daily did a 5 part, 13 article project called "Growing Together" in 2001: http://www.daytondailynews.com/project/content/project/grow/grow_index.html

 

As for license plates I look at county numbers from time to time and have noticed more 31s recently (Hamilton) and 83 (Warren) has always been a popular number since I started paying attention 10 years ago.

Jeffery, how is the Dayton media covering this "merger" of sorts? The Enquirer has done several articles in past years about the growing connection to Dayton, and the growth in Butler and Warren counties. Have any of the Dayton media outlets done similar stories? Also, what is the general feeling in Dayton about the increasing connection to Cincinnati? Personally, I think the average Cincinnatian is fairly indifferent to all of it, but perhaps that is because there is less to gain (no offense meant to Dayton, it's just the smaller city). When I've been home, I have noticed a lot of cars with Dayton area license plates around Kenwood, Hyde Park, etc. Is the reverse also happening more in Dayton?

 

Dayton doesn't care, to be honest.  It has no benefits for Dayton whatsoever and the average Daytonian is still fairly insular about Cincinnati (aside from Tri-County Mall, Kings Island, and the Reds/Bengals).  Remember, it'll always be "The Miami Valley," no matter what merger occurs (separate media markets = ignorance about other areas).  Ditto with Cincinnati and "the Tri-State."

 

If anything, Cincinnatians care more about the potential merger with Dayton than vice-versa.

And here in Miamisburg, I'd venture to say HALF of the people I work with are from the Cincinnati area and my work employs well over 300 people (West Chester; Delhi!; the city itself; Mason; etc).  So there is definately more economic merging, if anything.

Dayton doesn't care, to be honest. It has no benefits for Dayton whatsoever

You might be right about Dayton not caring even thought it should.

 

And you think it has no benefits?  Whatever benefits come from a merged area would probably help Dayton more than it would help Cincinnnati at least statistically FWIW IMO.

The opposite, really.  It'll help Cincinnati tremendously with 'first name' exposure, the "3 million club," blah blah.  But let me ask you this:  does/did merger help Fort Worth, Tacoma, Oakland, Long Beach, St. Paul, Newark, Providence, Manchester, Worcester, Wilmington, Fort Lauderdale, Durham, Flint, etc?  No, just names on a map "near" Dallas, Seattle, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Minneapolis, New York, Boston, Philadelphia, Miami, Raleigh, and Detroit.

 

Until I can see some hard evidence how this would positively improve the image or economic performance of Dayton (not Austin Pike), I will standby my statement of this is for Cincinnati's gain, Dayton's "eh."

Dayton could then say the area has 10 F500 companies.

Dayton could then say the area has 10 F500 companies.

 

Dayton could then say the region is growing

Dayton's been used to shrinking for decades.  I don't think adding on Cincinnati's minimal growth would help improve the image of the city.  And really, I don't think Dayton is itching to include Ashland into the Fortune 500 "list" anytime soon...

The local media (ie DDN) reports on this on occasion, as has been noted.  But i agree with ColDayMan that there isnt much benefit seen here...I dont see it.  Dayton becomes the new Tacoma?  Do you think there'd be much interaction?  Do you think people from Cincy would do things in Dayton. Go to festivals, shows, etc?

 

I could see some benefits in the performing arts and theatre scenes if the SOBs would maybe coordinate their schedules and cross-promote, to get culture vultures travelling to both dwtwn Cincy and dwntwn Dayton for prefomances.  This would mean breaking down walls of provincialism..but it could make for a vibrant arts scene.

 

Good points ColDayMan.  Being 57 miles from downtown to downtown, Cin-Day isn't Dallas-Ft. Worth at 35 miles or the Twin Cities which are only 8-10 miles.  Plus there is the parochialism factor.

 

As a Dayton supporter, the separateness is good with a few drawbacks.  If old school Cincy and old school Dayton could work together toward some progressive ends we might see the emergence of a genuine urban corridor from the Ohio to Dayton by way of smaller urban centers.  The ultimate upside of "meeting in the middle" is the final death of sprawl because now the development between the two metros won't be in new fields and will require even more density. 

 

A case for Charlotte style light rail should be made with cities focusing development around the line with a minimum of two story building height.

 

If the region had a motto, it'd have to be "festina lente."  "Make haste slowly."

Downtown to downtown is like 49 miles. Suburbs of Atanta 4 counties away are much further than that. Sacramento has suburbs or what ever they call it over 100 miles from it's downtown.

Downtown to downtown is like 49 miles. Suburbs of Atanta 4 counties away are much further than that. Sacramento has suburbs or what ever they call it over 100 miles from it's downtown.

Interesting about Atlanta/Sacramento, I'll have to look into that.  I wonder how Cin-Day stacks up compared to other metros.

 

Google Maps say it's 54 miles by highway from 3rd and Main in Dayton to the Freedom Center in Cincinnati.

I'd like to know what suburbs are 100 miles from downtown Sacto.

 

 

 

Trukee nv or what ever it's name is.

That's not a suburb but a seperate micropolitan area added to Sacramento as it's the more important economic center of that section of California.  Much like Wilmington to Cincinnati or Greenville to Dayton.

The discussion about the merging of Cin-Day is not about the cities of Cincinnati or Dayton (duh), but about the battle for market in Butler/Warren Cty which is where much of the growth in both regions is happening. The Enquirer is trying to be the newspaper for at least most of the southern portion of the region, but the DDN is a serious competitor that owns the Hamilton Journal-whatever. This is a battle for the narrative of the region that the Enquirer needs to win to survive. It got lucky when its number bumped up with the closer of the Post which was really a NKY paper for the last ten years of its life (and had been the dominant rag there for much, much longer). The question for the regions is where does the line between Cincinnati and Dayton markets get drawn when they combine (Monroe, Franklin, or even 675/Austin Rd).

 

On the other hand, I wouldn't underestimate the importance of the Reds/Bengals to creating a unified regional identity. I swear that there were more Dayton folks at those games sometimes that actually Cincinnatians. Having the Dayton Dragons certainly helps the Reds. If we could re-energize the mythical Miami Valley basketball conference that would be helpful as well (UC, XU, UD, Miami).

Check out Secret Cincinnati on Facebook. Really good.

I'm not so bothered by the sprawl issues ... at least not like I used to be. I guess if I think about it, some of the reasons that float around my mind are:

 

1. Sociology 101 teaches us that the very thing that people flee for the 'burbs to escape from eventually make its way to the burbs.

2. We're already seeing a shift crime/poverty between the city and suburbs.

3. The Generation X'ers/Y'ers/Millennials generally prefer walkable communities with everything "close by."

4. Teenagers waiting longer to receive their drivers license (even in OH).

5. The younger generation having an appreciation for "one of a kind" and quirky shops/restaurants/bars/theaters, etc. Something the burbs typically lack.

6. Cincinnati seems to be moving in the right direction and at a decent pace. Mallory and Co. are good at recognizing what it takes to attract the youth, who will in return populate the city with offspring. Also, Mallory seems to shrug off opposition that handicapped previous political leaders.

 

Indeed, the suburbs and exurbs are slowly sliding into irrelevancy. Obviously, it's been happening for quite a while (probably since the mid-80s or so) but the overall national consciousness didn't really notice until that first big fuel price spike in 2004. Since young people spend more time talking amongst themselves (on the internet, in person and on the phone), playing video games and listening to music than the TV generations that preceded them, TV hasn't been effective in cramming its auto-dependent propaganda down their throats.

The Enquirer is trying to be the newspaper for at least most of the southern portion of the region, but the DDN is a serious competitor that owns the Hamilton Journal-whatever. This is a battle for the narrative of the region that the Enquirer needs to win to survive.

How would the Enquirer lose its position as Cincinnati/NKY's largest daily morning newspaper?

 

Media markets give a peek into the regional collective conscious:

Cox has the Hamilton Journal-News, Middletown Journal and Lebanon's weekly Western Star.

 

The sprawl between the cities will meet then at a sort of Mason-Dixon line along Ohio route 63 which runs due east from Hamilton through Monroe to Lebanon.  The coverage of these outlying area's in urban papers say more about the boundary lines I think though.  The DDN rarely mentions Hamilton news but covers Springboro/Lebanon much more often.  How often does Hamilton get airtime from the Enquirer if ever?  Maybe Middletown/Hamilton are their own little bubble with Springboro being a Dayton outpost and Mason being a Cincinnati outpost?

 

Print media in Dayton works closely with other media (ie the WHIO radio am1290-fm95.7/WHIO tv 7/Dayton Daily News alliance).  Are there any similar alliances in Cincinnati?

 

Odd (but not too odd) that Scripps doesn't have a paper in the area.  Odder still is Cox Enterprises which was another Dayton original that owns the Dayton Daily News: after NCR left town, the DDN decried Atlanta's sniping of a homegrown business giant while conveniently overlooking the Sandy Springs, GA corporate headquarter of their parent company.  Seven days ago Cox announced that they were going to add 1000 more jobs and a new 600,000 sq ft HQ there.

There is little or no growth in Hamilton County - if the DDN and related newspapers eventually came to dominate the Warren/Butler market, then Gannet would stand to lose a lot of money - I'd wouldn't be surprised to see the winner in the competition to eventually buy the other -esp. since Cox and Gannett are both big corps and like their monopolies. Scripps owned the Cincinnati Post and shut it down in '07.

I hear most print newspapers are in financial trouble, so is the debate over media domination even relevant?

 

I am with you there, a dying medium.

I know we have a thread about this, but it remains a significant creator of the narrative of urban life. It also explains why the Enquirer would do articles like this with West Chester as its star.

I know we have a thread about this, but it remains a significant creator of the narrative of urban life. It also explains why the Enquirer would do articles like this with West Chester as its star.

Let the wooing of West Chester begin.

A speak-up comment in today's Dayton Daily News supported 3C rail but was disappointed that he'd have to drive to downtown to get on the train since he lives "south of town" and driving is more convenient then parking downtown.

 

Is downtown Dayton really the center of population for the area?

 

Exactly why there needs to be a Middletown Station ;)

 

Seriously though, what do you think us Northsiders like myself are supposed to do? Go to Springfield? Forget that......

Cin-Day according to Cox Media:  The Southwest Ohio Region

 

First the two big media markets.

 

 

Newspaper markets for Butler/Warren (two dailys plus a few weeklies.  This is the suburban newspaper market, like the Voice papers here in Dayton.

 

,

The Dayton media market, where we see the DDN’s range dip down into northern and central Warren County

 

 

DMA= Designated Market Area  (from Nielsen, I think).

NDM= Newspaper Designated Market

RTZ= Retail Trade Zone

 

I guess the interesting thing is that Cox apparently controls a lot of the secondary papers in the area, including the two local dailys. …and the Dayton market bleeds over into Richmond, Indiana.

 

 

And, from the early 1960s, a few other ways of defining Dayton’s sphere of influence

 

 

 

…back then it seems Clinton County had some connection with the Dayton.

 

 

 

Thanks for those fantastic maps. We've focused on the newspapers so far, but the media medium that has the longest overlap is radio. Northern Cincinnati regularly listens to Dayton radio, while many Cincy stations compete with Dayton stations. I know WLW is a rated station for Cbus, which means that it has to be a rated station for the Dayton market. I know that Cin/Day have been considered roughly combined in radio for awhile, because when they still enforced anti-trust in media - Jacor/ClearChannel had to divest itself of a bunch of Dayton stations when it swallowed much of the key Cincy market. I'd also add that Public Television in Cin/Day is now a single company with Dayton running the Cincinnati station. In Public Radio, Cincinnati now controls the Miami U station which is far closer to Dayton than the traditional Cincy market.

 

The point of this is media will be at the leading edge of creating a common narrative and we are already pretty far along in that process. The colleges in the region have tons of cross-enrollment - esp. UD and the better programs at UC. I don't know about the other schools, but I'd they also consider Cin/Day their general catchment region already.

 

Also the most of the Catholic schools in the greater Ohio part of the region play in the same sports league (the GCL) and there is plenty of competition between the high schools in the area. These are the kind of connections that make Cin/Day different than even Toledo/Detroit - not sure of Youngstown/Cleveland/Pittsburgh.

In high school, my tennis team always played a couple of Dayton schools every season.  Oakwood actually became a rival of sorts, even though there was about 45 miles between our schools.  Also, as a kid, I remember listening to a Dayton radio station in the morning (92.3 or something?), and my mom would change it to get relevant traffic information.  This all was in the Evendale/Glendale area, so it's not like it was even in the outter exurbs of Mason or West Chester or anything.

 

One more anecdote. In high school, I would tell my parents I was spending the night at a friend's house, and then drive up to Dayton to drink and party at UD.  I must have done this 5 or 6 times, and I never got caught  :-D, but I was always paranoid about getting a speeding ticket or parking ticket in Dayton.

For radio I listened to WOXY, which had the southern Dayton area covered.  I picked up on what was going on in Cincy back in the day from that station.  They would cover Dayton stuff, and played GBV, a Dayton band. 

 

I don't listen to commercial radio, but sort of wish WNKU would beef up their signal or get a northern transponder so I can pick them up here in Centerville.

 

 

The common narrative will be the most important thing to emerge out of the merger I think.  If urbanites from each core city can somehow push a shared agenda, there could be a lot of hope for the region as a whole.  There is plenty of sprawlable area left around each city but as they meet in the middle, there might be a sort of "reverberating ripple effect" of people returning back closer to the cores for the opportunities that depopulated areas offer.

 

Interesting anecdote, edale.  I know there is quite a field hockey rivalry between Oakwood and Indian Hill too.  And I also partied at UD as a high schooler, though I was considerably closer and never really worried about getting caught.  Quite the trip back to Cincy for you though.

For radio I listened to WOXY, which had the southern Dayton area covered. I picked up on what was going on in Cincy back in the day from that station. They would cover Dayton stuff, and played GBV, a Dayton band.

 

I don't listen to commercial radio, but sort of wish WNKU would beef up their signal or get a northern transponder so I can pick them up here in Centerville.

 

They do broadcast from "Port Union", 94.5 FM. But I loose it n/of Tylersville Rd and south of Cornell Road in Blue Ash.

 

http://www.radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/pat?call=W233BG&service=FX&status=L&hours=U

 

For Triple A, stream WXPN from Philly, they have a CD Quality Stream (96k)

www.wxpn.org

 

Does the mean that the Reds will no longer be able to use the 'small market' excuse?

It would still be a small market. Seattle is called small market. Minneapolis is called a small market.

I always tried to pull in WTUE-FM out of Dayton when I lived in Cincy to escape 'EBNs annoying nu-metal/nu-rock and 92.5s Styx and Foreigner. It was no problem at my apartment on the 3rd/4th floors at the top of the hill on Short Vine, but sometimes an issue when I lived in Oakley.

GE project would boost Ohio aerospace growth

Company says 2 sites in region are candidates for research center

 

By John Nolan, Staff Writer  8:46 PM Saturday, March 6, 2010

 

DAYTON — General Electric Co.’s pending decision about whether to build a research and testing center to advance the production of electrical power systems for military and civilian aircraft would boost Ohio’s effort to establish itself as a national hub for aerospace research and development, officials said.

 

GE has said that southwest Ohio is a leading candidate for the site, if the company’s leadership gives the go-ahead for establishing the center at a current GE operation. That would include GE Aviation’s jet engine plant in the Cincinnati suburb of Evendale and its GE Electrical Power Systems business in Vandalia.

 

Ohio has offered GE a $7.6 million incentive grant to support the project.

 

Company sites in Grand Rapids, Mich.; Erlanger, Ky., and Cheltenham, England, also are possibilities.

 

more: http://www.daytondailynews.com/business/ge-project-would-boost-ohio-aerospace-growth-584298.html

I didnt know GE was into that line of work.  I knew about that big engine plant, but this is a different type of system. Erlanger KY is ok as its still in Cin-Day (more on the Cin side, but a net add to the region).

Yeah, I thought the same thing about Erlanger.  I don't know what the "Aerospace Research Zone" designation from the state means but I guess it means they will throw more money to attract companies like this to the region.  Maybe this sort of development could help lure something like Boeing to the area someday.