^

now it would be interesting to do somehting like this for Warren & Butler.  Numbers commuting to Warren and Butler from X,

I know of a few people that live in the Dayton area and commute to the Cincinnati area--usually northern suburbs like Mason, West Chester, and Evendale.  More common seems to be people living in Mason and West Chester and commuting to Dayton--presumably sometimes with the other spouse commuting to Cincinnati.  Also, I know of a couple of people that commute between Dayton and Columbus.

 

I work with two or three people who commute from Columbus, or London, to be exact.  And I used to work with a guy who commuted from Hillsboro!

 

I knew a couple who lived outiside Monroe...husband commuted to Hamilton County somewhere, or maybe southern Warren, wife commuted to Lexis-Nexis, in Montgomery.

 

 

I don't think much will change from this merger either. Imagine if it were to happen tomorrow, what would really be different all of a sudden? When the merger occurs there will still be two markets or Economic area, two media markets and a lot of sprawl in between. Now if there was going to be a huge consolidation of resources, economic development organizations, and everything else at the same time, then it might be more meaningful.

I think the difference is this area will show up on every metro list as being 3.2 million people, and suddenly Dayton will get mentioned every time Cincinnati does like Dallas-Ft. Worth.  If no one cared about CSA's, MSA's, rankings etc. I do not think you would see so many cities annexing or merging with the home county.  It's a little silly, but plenty of people pay attention to these numbers, and it's not only people on this site.  To change in meaningful way it would be great to have some consolidation of resources, but this is not something that will have zero impact.

^ hehe that would be something if Dayton merged with Montgomery county and is larger than Cincinnati. Then i guess it would be Dayton-Cincinnati.

I think the difference is this area will show up on every metro list as being 3.2 million people, and suddenly Dayton will get mentioned every time Cincinnati does like Dallas-Ft. Worth.  If no one cared about CSA's, MSA's, rankings etc. I do not think you would see so many cities annexing or merging with the home county.  It's a little silly, but plenty of people pay attention to these numbers, and it's not only people on this site.  To change in meaningful way it would be great to have some consolidation of resources, but this is not something that will have zero impact.

 

The OMB merges or disconnects MSAs, so cities annexing or merging home counties has nothing to do with it. The omb merges based on commuting patterns.

^ Understood - I was simply pointing out that on different levels areas try to pump up their numbers.  By a city merging with the county, the city's population goes up and the city suddenly climbs in the rankings.  They would not do that if it did not matter to them.  At least a combination of the MSA's would seem to be objective as this is controlled by a third party.

Louisville is the first prime example of that, that comes to mind.  People down in Louisville really seem to believe that they are the 17th largest city and/or metro.  Just unbelievable...

By a city merging with the county, the city's population goes up and the city suddenly climbs in the rankings.  They would not do that if it did not matter to them.

I disagree.  Usually these city-county mergers involve the consolidation of services and the elimination of redundancies.  These are actually structural changes in government that can reduce bureaucracy and produce synergies and operating efficiencies, not just inflated population numbers.  Anyone who says their city is the X largest city and ignores where the entire metro population ranks is trying to skew the facts, IMHO. 

 

^ hehe that would be something if Dayton merged with Montgomery county and is larger than Cincinnati. THen i gues it woudl be Dayton-Cincinnati.

LOL, but no need to worry about that happening.  :lol:

What you say is true, but a big selling point seems to be the larger population.  I have read, for example, that cities have done this to also increase the potential of gaining a professional sports franchise.  Did the size of the metro change?  No, but they can now say the city is larger than prior to the merger.  See Rando's comment as exhibit A.

 

By a city merging with the county, the city's population goes up and the city suddenly climbs in the rankings.  They would not do that if it did not matter to them.

I disagree.  Usually these city-county mergers involve the consolidation of services and the elimination of redundancies.  These are actually structural changes in government that can reduce bureaucracy and produce synergies and operating efficiencies, not just inflated population numbers.  Anyone who says their city is the X largest city and ignores where the entire metro population ranks is trying to skew the facts, IMHO. 

 

 

Not to spend too much time on the market issue, but Cincinnati and Dayton's market already overlaps heavily and Cox is doing everything it can to beat out the Gannett in Butler and Warren County. Essentially because of the sprawl with a decent sized investment (which likely won't happen) either paper could become a mega-regional paper. Obviously the Daily News would leave off the KY and IN (though Honda may have all kinds of weird effects on the development of the region) while the ENQ would ignore Miami and out toward Springfield. It is also worth noting that the trip between Springfield and Cbus doesn't feel all that different in terms of sprawl than the trip between Cincy and Dayton.

Oh yeah and 700 has long been a major player in the Dayton market. In fact, I'm pretty sure there isn't a "local" radio station that carries the Reds in Dayton, though I could be wrong.

Oh yeah and 700 has long been a major player in the Dayton market. In fact, I'm pretty sure there isn't a "local" radio station that carries the Reds in Dayton, though I could be wrong.

 

No, you are right.

 

And anyone that listens to the "Reds on the Radio" shows after each game on 700WLW will hear callers calling in while they are driving back home after the game ... and some callers are even driving back to C-Bus.

 

 

Louisville is the first prime example of that, that comes to mind.  People down in Louisville really seem to believe that they are the 17th largest city and/or metro.  Just unbelievable...

 

Rando, what's more, Louisville is actually the 25th or so largest city, even if you go by raw Census numbers.  The city-county merger left intact all existing municipalities in Jefferson County, and the Census Bureau always excludes these from the city population.  Yet Louisville's leaders constantly count the entire county population as the city population.  That's actively deceptive.

 

I think having Cincy and Dayton being close helps in some regard.  For example, one reason IKEA is probably opening a Cincy store before Columbus, etc. is that it has not only a large base MSA, but also draws from the Dayton area as well.

 

This cuts both ways a bit, because it really puts a "northern bias" into location decisions in the Cincy area.  Cincinnati is already an unbalanced metro area.  The center of gravity is not downtown already, and to the extent that Dayton becomes part of the metro area, it will only shift the center of gravity further north.

 

^Our ridiculous outer-belt doesn't help matters either. Thanks to the required inclusion of kentucky and Indiana in 275.  If not for that I think the Cincinnati-Dayton connection would be prevalent much later. People forget how much space really matters. If you live close to Cincinnati proper, most likely you will never have much to do with Dayton at all.

I'm curious, Jeff, CDM, dfly ... you guys have all lived in Dayton or currently still live there, do you know a good amount of people that live in Dayton and work in Cincinnati yourselves?

 

I know a few people that commute to Cincinnati's northern suburbs but don't know anyone that commutes to downtown Cincinnati from the Dayton area.  Equally, I know many people from Cincinnati and northern suburbs that commute to Dayton's suburban southern ring.  So sure, there's overlap, but I'm still not convenced why/how Dayton would benefit from merging with Cincinnati with the CSA, other than in conversation of "The Cincinnati-Dayton area" or something.  Though it's likely to occur/undoubtly occuring to this day.  I mean, Monroe?  Trenton?  Freakin' Red Lion!?!?

I know several people that commute from Cincinnati's inner city to Dayton's suburbs. They have very high paying jobs though, that's usually the only reason people do it.

I've known/met people from both instances.  Live in Dayton and commute to work in Cincinnati CBD...live in Cincy and commute to Dayton CBD, but typically they are commuting to a Dayton 'burb (Lexis Nexis or some of the other MAJOR employers in the 'burbs of Dayton).

Red Lion. :lol:

^

yeah, but that old church is a cool landmark

 

$$$$$$$$$$$$

 

The city-county merger left intact all existing municipalities in Jefferson County, and the Census Bureau always excludes these from the city population.  Yet Louisville's leaders constantly count the entire county population as the city population.  That's actively deceptive.

 

The suburban muncipilaties, that Holy Roman Empire of 4th, 5th, and 6th class citys, are about as relevant as the the burgraviates, landgraviates, commanderys, free citys, abbacys, lordships, etc were in the old HRH.  These "suburbs' are, in most cases, no more than incorporated subdivisions. Some are no more than three or four blocks. Some are not even that, but incoporated apartment or condo complexes.  The city of La Fontenay Apartments?  Please.

 

These suburbs are under metro government and vote for representatives on the metro council, and pay the metro "occupational tax" (sort of like the city income tax here in Ohio).  They might even contract w. metro for police service for all I know.  I know they use metro for 911 and police work beyond traffic stops and routine patrols.

 

So they may function as little 'neighborhood governments" but not much more.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

^

i have to say, though, the insane proliferation of microburbs in Louisville made for one colorfull street map.

 

 

 

Linking Louisville to the Holy Roman Empire!  That's awesome! I nominate it for most esoteric UO post of all time.

Well, Jeffrey.  A lot of those Louisville people live in real cities like Jeffersontown, St. Matthews, and Shively.  It isn't just 6th class cities.

 

The point is, every other consolidated municipality gets treated the same way by the Census Bureau.  Even the ridiculous "included cities" of Indy's Unigov are counted separately.  Louisville is lying about its standing.  If it wants to count county population, then it should say where it stands on the list of top counties nationally, not cities.

Alliance talking with Dayton hospitals

BY CLIFF PEALE | August 8, 2007

 

As negotiators huddled today in talks with Ohio Attorney General Marc Dann to resolve the 19-month legal dispute entangling the Health Alliance of Greater Cincinnati, the hospital group has started paying two of its withdrawing members.

 

The alliance has paid Christ Hospital in Mount Auburn $36 million and St. Luke Hospitals in Northern Kentucky $3.5 million, advances on the hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue generated by those hospitals that had been collected through the alliance.

 

Meanwhile, Christ lawyers said in legal filings that the alliance and its remaining hospitals – University, Jewish and Fort Hamilton – have started preliminary talks on a merger or affiliation with Premier Health Partners, a hospital group in Dayton.  But Dann's spokesman said there were no current talks between the alliance and any outside group.

 

Read full article here:

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070808/NEWS01/308080019

A lot of those Louisville people live in real cities like Jeffersontown, St. Matthews, and Shively.  It isn't just 6th class cities.[/quote[

 

I'll grant you J-Town and Shively.  But they are covered under  metro too.  I can see the argument that the entire county population is part of Metro, but the Census has a different defintion as you note.

 

In reality, as we all know, its the metropolitan area population that counts, and I think based on that the Louisville metro area ranks in the 40s, which has been that way for some time now.

 

 

 

  Linking Louisville to the Holy Roman Empire!  That's awesome! I nominate it for most esoteric UO post of all time.

 

Yeah, hah!  When I say I'm a history buff, its not just urban history.

 

8-)

Southwest Ohio booming

BY LAURA BAVERMAN | August 10, 2007

 

With the booming population in Butler and Warren counties, so comes a boom in new business development.  And with that trend comes the need for more educational resources to keep pace with the job creation and the need for a skilled workforce.

 

Job creation and workforce development were top of mind challenges for a panel of business and community leaders assembled by the Dayton Business Journal and Cincinnati Business Courier for an Aug. 2 Regional Development Forum Southwest Ohio at The Manchester Inn in Middletown.

 

To attract new companies to the region -- and to help grow existing ones -- training and maintaining quality talent are a key concern for Deborah Norris, vice president of workforce development for Sinclair Community College.  "The No. 1 thing new businesses want is a qualified workforce," Norris said. "We have to think of innovative ways to produce talent in the future, recognizing that we've moved from a production society to a service society."

 

Read full article here:

http://dayton.bizjournals.com/dayton/stories/2007/08/13/focus1.html

This year's deadline for providing Congressional local opinion on eligible optional Combined Statistical Areas has now passed. 

 

The Office of Management and Budget will extend to Members of Congress another opportunity to request the establishment of optional combinations next year as part of its annual process for updating the statistical areas.

 

Hopefully local opinion could get us in for 2008. It worked for Orlando-Deltona-Daytona Beach, FL. So that metro will be getting more federal dollars then the Cincinnati CSA and Dayton CSA standing alone.

Hopefully local opinion could get us in for 2008. It worked for Orlando-Deltona-Daytona Beach, FL. So that metro will be getting more federal dollers then the Cincinnati CSA and Dayton CSA standing alone.

 

That's unfortunate...and somewhat disturbing.

Interesting article. . . .this company has an office in suburban cincy and suburban dayton and now is going to close them both and move right into the heart of Daytonati to form 1 big office. . .I wonder how many more moves like this we'll see from companies in similar situations?

 

Paychex considers move to Middletown

 

A payroll and human resources outsourcing firm may put down roots in Middletown, its local newspaper reported Monday.  Rochester, N.Y.-based Paychex has applied for an enterprise zone tax abatement, according to a story in the Middletown Journal. If it's approved by Middletown City Council, the company plans to consolidate its Miamisburg and Blue Ash locations at the city-owned Smart Office Park on Union Road.

The move would bring 117 jobs to Middletown, and Paychex said it would create about 14 additional jobs over the first three years.

 

Read full article here:

http://dayton.bizjournals.com/dayton/stories/2008/01/21/daily16.html

Too bad there isn't an international airport between Dayton/Cincinnati like former Dayton mayor R. William Patterson wanted.

 

From the front page of the June 20, 1995 Dayton Daily News reporting his death:

 

R. William Patterson, former Dayton mayor who waged an unsuccessful campaign for the U.S. Congress in the 1960s, died Sunday at age 86.

 

Mr. Patterson, an attorney, served as Dayton's mayor from 1958 to 1961. He was active in civic affairs throughout his career. In the early 1970s he headed a charter review committee to overhaul the city's charter. A graduate of Georgetown University, Mr. Patterson practiced law until eight years ago, said his son, Ryan Patterson.

 

Mr. Patterson's law offices were in the Reibold Building for 40 years.

 

Mr. Patterson's wife, Virginia, a former Hollywood actress and Dayton radio and television personality, died in 1990.

 

James Sullivan, active in the local Democratic Party for many years, served as Mr. Patterson's campaign manager for mayor and the U.S. Senate.

 

He remembers Mr. Patterson as a man of honor who always tried to do the right thing, even if it cost him political support.

 

``He didn't play the (political) game with the boys,'' Sullivan said. ``That's why he only served one term as mayor.''

 

Mr. Patterson is credited with providing strong leadership that helped ensure that Interstate 75 came through Dayton, Sullivan said.

 

Perhaps his greatest vision was his dream of having a regional airport constructed between Dayton and Cincinnati. It was a dream that never materialized.

Perhaps his greatest vision was his dream of having a regional airport constructed between Dayton and Cincinnati. It was a dream that never materialized.

 

There's no argument that the 2 airports are competing with each other. But would a centrally located regional airport really work? Who would have control? Who would get the tax revenue? Who would provided policing, safety and services? I could just see Dayton and Cincinnati in a heated battle over control of a centrally located airport, and then Warren County would join in the fight. I mean let's face it. The three can't even work together to get a rail line along 75.

Perhaps his greatest vision was his dream of having a regional airport constructed between Dayton and Cincinnati. It was a dream that never materialized.

 

There's no argument that the 2 airports are competing with each other. But would a centrally located regional airport really work? Who would have control? Who would get the tax revenue? Who would provided policing, safety and services? I could just see Dayton and Cincinnati in a heated battle over control of a centrally located airport, and then Warren County would join in the fight. I mean let's face it. The three can't even work together to get a rail line along 75.

 

aside from all that, today there is zero need for it. patterson was right tho, too bad the cin airport went to ky, it would have been better placed there somewhere between cin-day. oh well that's politics for ya.

 

today i agree it would be ideal if cin-day and their airports were all connected up by some kind of rail transit service. hellz bellz i think that is so important i'd even get my fam in ne ohio to vote for any state tax for that one. it would be a reasonable and useful use of creative energy for our era. all modern major metropolitan regions have some kind of airport-rail service, it's mandatory, and the cin-day airports need it too.

 

 

Perhaps his greatest vision was his dream of having a regional airport constructed between Dayton and Cincinnati. It was a dream that never materialized.

 

There's no argument that the 2 airports are competing with each other. But would a centrally located regional airport really work? Who would have control? Who would get the tax revenue? Who would provided policing, safety and services? I could just see Dayton and Cincinnati in a heated battle over control of a centrally located airport, and then Warren County would join in the fight. I mean let's face it. The three can't even work together to get a rail line along 75.

 

If that airport was constructed, I would only have to go to Kentucky for skyline shots of Cincinnati and the occasional Hofbrauhaus visit.  Just think, I wouldn't have to hear the word "ya'll" anymore...

Don't even put Cincinnati/Dayton in the same sentence.

I here-by declare that "DAYTON" be renamed to "CINCINNATI" -signed by Cincinnatus 2/19/08 | 6:23 PM

I here-by declare that "DAYTON" be renamed to "CINCINNATI" -signed by Cincinnatus 2/19/08 | 6:23 PM

 

I second that motion.

DAYTONNATI. . .Learn it, Live it, Love it! hahahhahaa

^Says the newly dubbed resident of the Cincinnati.

There's still plenty of development between Dayton and Cincinnati to be done yet guys. Plus the simple truth is that both cities are getting overrun by suburbs and sprawl anyway. The two city limits will never get any closer than they already are. Suburban growth and Ohio Annexation regulations have pretty much made sure of that.

 

I hereby declare the Cincinnati - Dayton region, Suburbannati.

And I hereby SUSPEND anyone that even agrees with changing Dayton to Cincinnati below this post. :)

 

 

If that airport was constructed, I would only have to go to Kentucky for skyline shots of Cincinnati and the occasional Hofbrauhaus visit.  Just think, I wouldn't have to hear the word "ya'll" anymore...

 

Cincyimages, I respect your opinions and certainly love the beautiful work you do with your photos. I haven't been on this site for too long but it is obvious your passion and love for this city is unmatched. But I don't understand why so many on here feel the need to belittle other areas while promoting Cincinnati. I lived in Cincinnati for 15 years and hope to move back there in a few years but I was born in a small Kentucky town and am proud of it. It is possible to have a strong and vibrant Cincinnati and have other strong and vibrant cities or other beautiful and scenic areas like many places in Kentucky offer. It doesn't have to be one or the other. If our paths ever cross, I'll have to be sure to watch my mouth and not let any "y'all's" slip out...

Cincyimages, I respect your opinions and certainly love the beautiful work you do with your photos. I haven't been on this site for too long but it is obvious your passion and love for this city is unmatched. But I don't understand why so many on here feel the need to belittle other areas while promoting Cincinnati. I lived in Cincinnati for 15 years and hope to move back there in a few years but I was born in a small Kentucky town and am proud of it. It is possible to have a strong and vibrant Cincinnati and have other strong and vibrant cities or other beautiful and scenic areas like many places in Kentucky offer. It doesn't have to be one or the other. If our paths ever cross, I'll have to be sure to watch my mouth and not let any "y'all's" slip out...

 

As a non-Cincinnatian who has read a lot of city boards over the years, I can say that my personal experience is that Cincinnati boosters take top prize with over the top proclamations about how great Cincy is and how lame other peer cities are.  In fact, a common theme is people in Cincinnati talking about how they should really be compared to St. Louis and Atlanta, etc. instead of against Indy and Columbus, whom Cincinnatians seems barely to deem worth consideration.

 

Cincy is an awesome city with the best collection of assets of any similar sized metro in the entire United States.  It is a city I believe has enormous potential.  But it is also indisputable that Cincy is one of the handful of all time greatest decline stories in US history.  Along with St. Louis, Cleveland, and Pittsburgh, it was a one time top rank city - #5 in population in the US at its peak I believe - that has fallen to third tier relative status.  Whatever their faults, Indy and Columbus are at the peak relative importance as cities in their history and still on an upswing.  And more people are voting with their feet to go to those cities.  That says a heckuva lot about them.

 

I don't suggest Cincy should wallow in woe is me, but a little humility would certainly be in order.  Other than the remnants of its once golden past, largely under-exploited, I don't see why Cincinnati would feel so superior other other 1-2 million population Midwestern metros.

 

As a non-Cincinnatian who has read a lot of city boards over the years, I can say that my personal experience is that Cincinnati boosters take top prize with over the top proclamations about how great Cincy is and how lame other peer cities are.  In fact, a common theme is people in Cincinnati talking about how they should really be compared to St. Louis and Atlanta, etc. instead of against Indy and Columbus, whom Cincinnatians seems barely to deem worth consideration.

 

It is wrong to lump Atlanta and St. Louis together seeing as how they are completely different.  I personally think it is most accurate to compare Cincy to places like Pittsburgh, St. Louis, and Minneapolis.  However...I think it is more productive to compare yourself to something bigger and possibly better and that would be places like Chicago, Atlanta, and Philadelphia for example.  You should always strive to compare yourself to the best...if not you are settling for complancency.

 

I don't suggest Cincy should wallow in woe is me, but a little humility would certainly be in order.  Other than the remnants of its once golden past, largely under-exploited, I don't see why Cincinnati would feel so superior other other 1-2 million population Midwestern metros.

 

This could be a number of things...first of all Cincinnati is one of the largest Midwestern MSAs, it also has an inordinant amount of Fortune 500 companies and other large corporations, or maybe our international airport, or maybe our historical prowress.  There are a bunch of reasons...I don't find it odd that many Cincinnatians (where many have spent the lionshare of their adult life in Cincinnati only) feel a superiority factor.

 

Others who have been elsewhere (like cincyimages and myself)...we have come to appreciate the things that Cincinnati does have to offer and realize that Cincinnati has much more to offer than many other comparable cities.  Heck Cincinnati even has bigger cities beat on many issues including things like the arts, natural beauty, architecture, etc.

Cincinnati is certainly comparable to St. Louis, Pittsburgh, and Cleveland.  I don't know about Minneapolis and Atlanta is in a whole other league (though not in the league of Chicago or New York as Randy suggested).  Cincinnati, though, is ALSO comparable to Indianapolis and Columbus, much like PGH, STL, and CLE.  Really, all these mid-tiered metropolitan areas (meaning, anything below the Seattle aura to about Nashville) are comparable. 

I here-by declare that "DAYTON" be renamed to "CINCINNATI" -signed by Cincinnatus 2/19/08 | 6:23 PM

 

I second that motion.

DAYTONNATI. . .Learn it, Live it, Love it! hahahhahaa

Cindaynati, reflects the population. Dayton has 890k, cincinnati has 2.1+ mil and is the largest metro in ohio based on projected population trends

 

I here-by declare that "DAYTON" be renamed to "CINCINNATI" -signed by Cincinnatus 2/19/08 | 6:23 PM

 

I second that motion.

DAYTONNATI. . .Learn it, Live it, Love it! hahahhahaa

Cindaynati, reflects the population.  Dayton has 890k, cincinnati has 2.1+ mil and is the largest metro in ohio based on projected population trends

 

Yes, but Daytonnati just sounds better. . .and is easier to say! :)

 

 

Cincyimages, I respect your opinions and certainly love the beautiful work you do with your photos. I haven't been on this site for too long but it is obvious your passion and love for this city is unmatched. But I don't understand why so many on here feel the need to belittle other areas while promoting Cincinnati. I lived in Cincinnati for 15 years and hope to move back there in a few years but I was born in a small Kentucky town and am proud of it. It is possible to have a strong and vibrant Cincinnati and have other strong and vibrant cities or other beautiful and scenic areas like many places in Kentucky offer. It doesn't have to be one or the other. If our paths ever cross, I'll have to be sure to watch my mouth and not let any "y'all's" slip out...

 

As a non-Cincinnatian who has read a lot of city boards over the years, I can say that my personal experience is that Cincinnati boosters take top prize with over the top proclamations about how great Cincy is and how lame other peer cities are.  In fact, a common theme is people in Cincinnati talking about how they should really be compared to St. Louis and Atlanta, etc. instead of against Indy and Columbus, whom Cincinnatians seems barely to deem worth consideration.

 

So, you're judging an entire region (over 2 million people) based on how a handful of urban freaks post?

 

Cincy is an awesome city with the best collection of assets of any similar sized metro in the entire United States.  It is a city I believe has enormous potential.  But it is also indisputable that Cincy is one of the handful of all time greatest decline stories in US history.  Along with St. Louis, Cleveland, and Pittsburgh, it was a one time top rank city - #5 in population in the US at its peak I believe - that has fallen to third tier relative status. 

 

Third tier would be a joke. I believe Memphis, Nashville, etc ... would fall into this category. I also think the "1-2" mil comparison would be a joke. Why not 2? A million people is a hell of a lot of people, but STL yes (easily) Atlanta, Seattle, no.

 

 

I don't suggest Cincy should wallow in woe is me, but a little humility would certainly be in order.  Other than the remnants of its once golden past, largely under-exploited, I don't see why Cincinnati would feel so superior other other 1-2 million population Midwestern metros.

 

 

Who are you to judge whether an entire metro is humble or prideful. How can you even measure this?

 

If you are referring to Cincinnatians superior mentality of let's say Indy, then yeah I can see this, but this is probably because of history. I don't see this changing though especially since the city, county, and metro are all growing again.

^---Just 2 more years. Our combined metro will squash little STL like a bug! ;-)