February 22, 200817 yr And more people are voting with their feet to go to those cities. That says a heckuva lot about them. Many, many people vote to shop at Wal-Mart and eat McDonald's and Applebee's as well. I think it says more about the sad state of corporate control in America. EDIT: I'm not from Cincinnati but I will say that it kicks the arse of both Indianapolis and Columbus.
February 22, 200817 yr And more people are voting with their feet to go to those cities. That says a heckuva lot about them. EDIT: I'm not from Cincinnati but I will say that it kicks the arse of both Indianapolis and Columbus. ^TRUE STATEMENT. Cincinnati has an authentic urban feel to it that I believe Columbus and Indy lack, regardless of how many people live in their MSAs.
February 22, 200817 yr The only way to make any comparison is to make it valid. For example, if you took 1950 Columbus by boundary and compared that population by the same boundary today you would see there are fewer people. I don't know about Indianapolis, but I do know the boundaries are different. Your argument is apples to oranges. Very few cities with the same boundaries have gained population since then - I know Atlanta is growing now, but I do not know the 1950 population. Additionally, metro population is what drives most measures of a market these days. It would be nice to have 400 square miles to work with though. Cincyimages, I respect your opinions and certainly love the beautiful work you do with your photos. I haven't been on this site for too long but it is obvious your passion and love for this city is unmatched. But I don't understand why so many on here feel the need to belittle other areas while promoting Cincinnati. I lived in Cincinnati for 15 years and hope to move back there in a few years but I was born in a small Kentucky town and am proud of it. It is possible to have a strong and vibrant Cincinnati and have other strong and vibrant cities or other beautiful and scenic areas like many places in Kentucky offer. It doesn't have to be one or the other. If our paths ever cross, I'll have to be sure to watch my mouth and not let any "y'all's" slip out... As a non-Cincinnatian who has read a lot of city boards over the years, I can say that my personal experience is that Cincinnati boosters take top prize with over the top proclamations about how great Cincy is and how lame other peer cities are. In fact, a common theme is people in Cincinnati talking about how they should really be compared to St. Louis and Atlanta, etc. instead of against Indy and Columbus, whom Cincinnatians seems barely to deem worth consideration. Cincy is an awesome city with the best collection of assets of any similar sized metro in the entire United States. It is a city I believe has enormous potential. But it is also indisputable that Cincy is one of the handful of all time greatest decline stories in US history. Along with St. Louis, Cleveland, and Pittsburgh, it was a one time top rank city - #5 in population in the US at its peak I believe - that has fallen to third tier relative status. Whatever their faults, Indy and Columbus are at the peak relative importance as cities in their history and still on an upswing. And more people are voting with their feet to go to those cities. That says a heckuva lot about them. I don't suggest Cincy should wallow in woe is me, but a little humility would certainly be in order. Other than the remnants of its once golden past, largely under-exploited, I don't see why Cincinnati would feel so superior other other 1-2 million population Midwestern metros.
February 22, 200817 yr And more people are voting with their feet to go to those cities. That says a heckuva lot about them. Many, many people vote to shop at Wal-Mart and eat McDonald's and Applebee's as well. I think it says more about the sad state of corporate control in America. EDIT: I'm not from Cincinnati but I will say that it kicks the arse of both Indianapolis and Columbus. & And more people are voting with their feet to go to those cities. That says a heckuva lot about them. EDIT: I'm not from Cincinnati but I will say that it kicks the arse of both Indianapolis and Columbus. ^TRUE STATEMENT. Cincinnati has an authentic urban feel to it that I believe Columbus and Indy lack, regardless of how many people live in their MSAs. Let's stop with the subtle bashing of Columbus and Indianapolis. No need to belittle on a forum promoting urbanism (and last I checked, CMH and Indy were both promoting urbanism as much as Cincinnati). "You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers
February 22, 200817 yr As for the CinDayNati (which sounds horrific) and Daytonati (which flows but would anger the inferiority complex of Cincinnati), let's just keep it with Southwest Ohio or Cincinnati-Dayton, shall we? "You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers
February 22, 200817 yr As for the CinDayNati (which sounds horrific) and Daytonati (which flows but would anger the inferiority complex of Cincinnati), let's just keep it with Southwest Ohio or Cincinnati-Dayton, shall we? ^Agreed. Minneapolis-St. Paul, Dallas-Ft. Worth, Cincinnati-Dayton, sounds good to me. Check these out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_metropolitan_areas#United_States
February 23, 200817 yr ...and Daytonati (which flows but would anger the inferiority complex of Cincinnati), LOL, yes, one does notice the insecurity of Cincinanti posters here (and elsewhere). I think Kingfish gave a good linguistic explantion on why Daytonnati "flows", but that was another post. Realitstically speaking SW Ohio makes sense as that is general enough to pull in Hamilton, Middletown, and Springfield.
February 23, 200817 yr The 'problem' with Indy and Cbus is that they are state capitals and thus have the attendant attention of the state government which makes those of us from the city-state of Cincinnati annoyed when we are compared to them. They also grew later and had the capacity to grab much of the surrounding countryside when the culture of Cincinnati had already hemmed in the city boundaries in the 1920s
February 23, 200817 yr The 'problem' with Indy and Cbus is that they are state capitals and thus have the attendant attention of the state government which makes those of us from the city-state of Cincinnati annoyed when we are compared to them. They also grew later and had the capacity to grab much of the surrounding countryside when the culture of Cincinnati had already hemmed in the city boundaries in the 1920s Columbus has a fantastic old core that blew up in the 1850's and remained stagnant (read: Dayton, Toledo, Akron) until around the 70's when the annexation and expansion of the city began. People forget that 'old' Columbus is 50 sq miles of continuous urbanity (okay, so downtown took a hit LOL) and 'old' Cincinnati is only 10 more sq mi (and I'm subtracting the 11 miles of watershed, river, and hills). The disdain for Columbus stems from the fact that many in Cincinnati and Cleveland are moving to it due to it being more of an transplant city (ala a northern Charlotte in a sense) unlike a more provincial Cin/Clev. Thus, they bring up the "Columbus doesn't have the culture of..." which is quite moronic as it is just a different culture. "You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers
February 23, 200817 yr ^ One of the best ways to get a feel of Columbus as Another Midwest Industrial City is to look at old areil pix, with the railroad yards, foundrys, loft factories and such surrounding downtown. Indianapolis has its industrial blue collar past too.
February 23, 200817 yr You guys know you really got Chris going when he posts 3 times in less than 24 hours on the same topic. :-D
February 23, 200817 yr As for the CinDayNati (which sounds horrific) and Daytonati (which flows but would anger the inferiority complex of Cincinnati), let's just keep it with Southwest Ohio or Cincinnati-Dayton, shall we? ^Agreed. Minneapolis-St. Paul, Dallas-Ft. Worth, Cincinnati-Dayton, sounds good to me. Check these out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_metropolitan_areas#United_States But can we still call it Cin-Day for short...I just like saying it. And cincy1, as much as I appreciate the new attempt at naming, "Natiton" sounds like something you'd call a playground or a daycare. It's cute, but it's just missing that EDGE. Oh, and here's a new one...recently I've heard a number of people start calling Minneapolis-Saint Paul, "Mipple-Stipple." It's apparently what happens when you try to read the abbreviation MPLS-STPL out loud. I think it's quirky and great.
February 23, 200817 yr Cincinnati-Dayton...why? Well that is what the combined MSA will be called in the 2010 Census. The Cincinnati-Dayton Metropolitan area...no one is merging the two cities together, therefore there is no need to alter names. No Cinciton, Daytonati, Cindaynati, or whatever other obnoxious combination you can come up with. Plain and simple = Cincinnati-Dayton.
February 23, 200817 yr Mipple-Stipple? Fo' shizzle! Its got rizzle dizzle, ya knizzle? ^That's really funny, I'm laughing out loud.
February 23, 200817 yr You guys know you really got Chris going when he posts 3 times in less than 24 hours on the same topic. :-D He's ok, just as long as he dosen't have fleas..lol
February 28, 200817 yr I have a couple co-workers who commute daily from Dayton to downtown Cincinnati. Does anyone know if the number of commuters between the cities/areas is increasing lately?
November 20, 200816 yr I think they should have big arrays of spot lights at every interchange between I-275 and I-675 and turn them on at night for two weeks to play the night sky, marking the announcement of the new metro area. It would give urban srpawl the excitement of a Hollywood premiere....or a WWII air raid.
November 21, 200816 yr What do expect after we elected Obama - the lights go out on Jesus. I actually know a couple African-Americans who belong to Solid Rock Church - which really surprised me since I figured it was one of those borderline white supremacist cults.
November 21, 200816 yr the lights were out on the Big Jesus the last two times I drove past. I think we have a winner. Cin-Day: The Big Jesus Linear City.
November 21, 200816 yr Last March I was driving in a dense fog to Dayton's airport at about 5am. Seeing that Big Jesus floating in that fog was my visual highlight of 2008.
November 21, 200816 yr What do expect after we elected Obama - the lights go out on Jesus. I actually know a couple African-Americans who belong to Solid Rock Church - which really surprised me since I figured it was one of those borderline white supremacist cults. A lot of black folks go to Solid Rock. Roger Troutman had his funeral there. "You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers
November 21, 200816 yr Daytonatti works better phonetically, sounds better. It also incorporates the unique aspect of Cincinatti's name, which is that Latin plural form. And it has about the same amount of letters for each city. Not quite...Dayton / nati And on top of all of that the entire name of Dayton is in the name with only the ending to Cincinnati. Why not just write it like this then... Daytonnati But like I said...it is a irrelevant point. No ones name is changing...just adding a hyphen. Think of it like Cincinnati and Dayton getting married, but both want to keep their name...hence the hyphen! This thread's back up. Cool. Anyways, if you guys haven't realized yet, this thread was one of the reasons why I started doing this, and this post is where my name stems from. Also, if anyone knows how to change user names, let me know. I wlould like it to look something like this: Daytonnati
November 21, 200816 yr if there is ever a da nati, etc. then there should be an ak land or cle kron. especially as they are much closer together. aww what the hell, if there is is a cin day there might as well be a cle town or young land too. i mean if you are going to talk 50 miles of suburban hell and cornfields away, then 70 miles away is ok too. i'm just sayin. :wink:
November 22, 200816 yr if there is ever a da nati, etc. then there should be an ak land or cle kron. especially as they are much closer together. aww what the hell, if there is is a cin day there might as well be a cle town or young land too. i mean if you are going to talk 50 miles of suburban hell and cornfields away, then 70 miles away is ok too. i'm just sayin. :wink: The combination of the Cincinnati and Dayton markets will be based on commuting patterns between the MSAs and CSAs of the two areas. They will still more than likely maintain separate MSAs, but the combination will be the CSA area given the cross-commuting patterns between southern Dayton areas and northern Cincinnati areas. If those same relationships hold true for other close proximity cities (i.e. Cleveland and Youngstown), then the same will be done. This is a purely technical/mathmatical combination.
November 22, 200816 yr Right. If SF and San Jose aren't considered the same MSA, then Cincy-Dayton surely won't be, though there's a definite tighter linkage between the two day by day. A lot of this is driven by the outward suburban expansion and the relative decline of Dayton however, two factors I doubt most people are that happy to see.
November 23, 200816 yr Right. If SF and San Jose aren't considered the same MSA, then Cincy-Dayton surely won't be, though there's a definite tighter linkage between the two day by day. A lot of this is driven by the outward suburban expansion and the relative decline of Dayton however, two factors I doubt most people are that happy to see. The Dayton/Cincinnati regions will be grouped as one, that is innevitable. This has been forseen for decades and Hamilton and Montgomery Counties are to blame for not doing anything to slow it down. Now Warren County is becoming a major player in Ohio and will continue to do so and will continue to take a lot away from everyone else with Montgomery becoming the major loser in the exchange. There is nothing that can be done about it. Southwest Ohio is just going to have to learn to deal with it.
November 23, 200816 yr While Warren County may have increased clout, the health of Warren County is very much dependent on Cincinnati and Dayton. They could not build enough 4 story office buildings and 1-2 story industrial buildings in Warren county to make up the stock that exists in the core cities. Warren county is important to the region, but it could not exist alone. Hamilton County and Montegomery County have not failed with there efforts to keep businesses and residents. They are just fighting a society that would rather build on a empty field rather than take on old property and clean it up/build new there. In the short term building on older sites may cost more than building on a new site, but the long-term cost of urban sprawl will be haunting us for decades. Hamilton and Montegomery are doing the best they can given the finite resources to lure people/companies to sites that are more difficult to develop. I felt very sad driving through northern parts of Cincinnati today and seeing older homes that were once grand falling into disrepair. The new homes/offices in Westchester and other exburb areas will only be new for so long.
November 23, 200816 yr Right. If SF and San Jose aren't considered the same MSA, then Cincy-Dayton surely won't be, though there's a definite tighter linkage between the two day by day. A lot of this is driven by the outward suburban expansion and the relative decline of Dayton however, two factors I doubt most people are that happy to see. The Dayton/Cincinnati regions will be grouped as one, that is innevitable. This has been forseen for decades and Hamilton and Montgomery Counties are to blame for not doing anything to slow it down. Now Warren County is becoming a major player in Ohio and will continue to do so and will continue to take a lot away from everyone else with Montgomery becoming the major loser in the exchange. There is nothing that can be done about it. Southwest Ohio is just going to have to learn to deal with it. Exactly.
November 24, 200816 yr ^ people keep forgetting about Greene County and its relationship to Dayton/Montgomery. Most of the retail growth is in Greene, and it's turning into a business center, too. Greene County has more to do with the decline of Dayton & Montgomery County than Warren, though this isn't that visible to outsiders.
November 24, 200816 yr Agreed^ Greene County...oy. "You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers
November 24, 200816 yr IMO, Greene County grew mainly because of Wright-Patterson's presence. No Wright Pat, and Greene would look like Preble County. Most of the urbanized parts of Warren County (I live there) are socially, "culturally" and economically a lot more like a southern version of Kettering or a northern version of Sharonville. IE: I saw an article in the Western Star a few years ago that seemed to indicate, for instance, that Lebanon was a place that people from the Belmont neighborhood in Dayton preferred to move to ... WTF? Warren is a sprawling suburban area that simply resembles "real" country. There are precious few value-added jobs here. The local economy mostly revolves around fossil fuel based activities like trucking. There is really no native professional class here. The idea that Warren can raid Dayton and Cincinnati for high-value growth is absurd. If I want to find a job as a software engineer I'd better plan on driving to downtown Cincinnati, up to Washington Twp or Wright-Pat, or even Columbus, and as far as I can see, it is absolutely never going to change. All the local planners here can think of are $10/hr service and logistics jobs.
November 24, 200816 yr It isn't Warren that is the driving force connecting Cincy and Dayton, it's Butler Cty. Warren doesn't really add much to the equation. Butler is the connective tissue that was there even if our development wasn't pure sprawl. The power of I-75 is something behold. One could make a decent argument that given Butler Cty's relative high levels of urbanization (Hamilton, Middletown among others) that eventually it would pull Cincy and Dayton together. The interesting thing is how the far edges are affecting the growth (esp. the locations of the airports). If Butler had the main regional airport they might have combined 30 years ago. Instead NKY and Miami Cty. each stretch the region more than it might have otherwise. Cincinnati N/S development access has only been intensified over the last 20 years since Clermont and Campbell Cty were never really able to capture their expected part of the regional population. Likewise, the challenging topography of western Hamilton Cty. kept the growth along the interstate, rail, canal corridors.
November 24, 200816 yr IMO, Greene County grew mainly because of Wright-Patterson's presence. No Wright Pat, and Greene would look like Preble County. Since Dayton is close to the county line there would have been suburbanization happening into Greene even without the base, including, perhpas, outlying business parks. The base just makes this much more intense @@@@@@@@@@ Good point about Butler County. It really depends on the interchange. The old pre-auto era growth along the river (via canal and railroad) repeats itself along the interestate.
November 24, 200816 yr For Warren, I think the I-71 corridor is becoming a job center with those office buildings between I-275 and Kings Island (they are in Warren, true?)
November 24, 200816 yr I think the main thing that made Butler (and Warren) county growth possible wast the migration of jobs out of Cincy downtown north to the I-275 area, and the Dayton downtown south to the Miamisburg/SR725 area. I grew up in Middletown, and started my first post-college job in downtown Cincy (1985). I commuted for about a month before finding an appartment closer to work. The commute was terrible. Not really doable on a long-term basis. At that time, there were few professional (IT) jobs in the existing cities/towns of Butler/Warren county. This has not changed, in that the cities that existed in 1985 still have few professional jobs (Hamilton/Middletown). Had Cincy and Dayton not spilled over into the fringes of the county, Butler/Warren would not have many professional jobs. Now I live between Middletown and Lebanon, and I commute down I-75 to Westchester. Back in the mid '80s, there were few job options in Butler/Waren counties, and only a few more options in Northern Cincy/Southern Dayton. Today, the job situation has changed, and that has allowed all the bland subdivisions of Westcheter, Mason, and Springboro to grow. Without the jobs moving out of the 2 big downtowns, Butler/Waren would not have experienced rapid population growth.
November 24, 200816 yr Sprawl is clearly what caused the region to coalesce, though the dramatic economic decline of Dayton has exacerbated the trend. Part of this about economic linkages. To some degree the interurban system tied the hinterlands to the core more intensely than the sprawling mode of development over the last eighty years. One could imagine that in an alternate universe, the ties would have as tight or tighter across the region, but instead of sprawling residential sections acting as connecting tissue, it would have a series of dense towns/cities with greater amounts of productive land use in between. SW Ohio should look more Germany and maybe it will be going forward (we can dream).
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