I live relatively close to Washington Park, and I swear, there must be at least 5 EMT/Fire visits over there every evening.  Honestly, it's getting a little bit ridiculous.  What a waste of city resources to continuously service the same exact place. 

 

Why is it ok to allow people to destroy themselves in public parks?  Why can't the precedent be set that this isn't acceptable?  Why does the city allow this?

I assume bums passed out or is it violent crimes against somebody????????

I assume bums passed out or is it violent crimes against somebody????????

 

Could be people drinking themselves into a coma or overdosing on drugs.  It is frustrating to see this. 

 

Another frustrating thing is to watch people give a panhandler money.  Several of these pandhandlers use this money to buy 40s, drink until they pass out, then an ambulance is called for them.  I recently heard an EMT express frustration.

That is a major problem.  It's almost impossible to convince people not to give money to panhandlers.  People just have big hearts I guess, and aren't aware of the consequences of their "generosity".  A lot of cities are now installing "homeless parking meters", and telling the public that if they REALLY want to HELP, they'll put change in the meter instead of in the hands of panhandlers.  This money then gets donated to charities that actually help the homeless:

 

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-10-17-parkingmeters_N.htm

 

I wouldn't mind seeing those installed downtown, if they aren't already (I haven't seen any).  Also, I would support attacking the problem from the other end as well, by passing an ordinance against the act of giving money to a panhandler.  This could be enforceable by ticketing.  If a police officer sees you handing money to someone panhandling, he walks up to you and writes you a ticket.  Nothing major, just $5 maybe.  We're not trying to punish people for being generous after all, but if this is going to stop, we need to give people a reason to quit enabling panhandlers and the ability to say "no" without feeling guilty.  The proceeds from these tickets could either be donated to charities or used to fund the emergency services that prompted our discussion.  Panhandlers are accustomed to having the police talk to them and move them along, whereas your average person just walking around town is not, so this would be far more effective than an ordinance against panhandling itself.

Bringing it all back to the park...why isn't the city doing anything about this?  It is such a glaring problem, particularly with a school coming on board right there.  A park is not a safe haven for drug abusers. 

 

I feel like they need some sort of constant patrol there.  Walking up to people openly drinking and doing drugs and moving them out.  Its so disgusting to see what is going on there...its really outrageous.  You can't get away with that in any other part of downtown....at least not in that magnitude.  Its just so egregious.

 

 

I have to believe that once the SCPA is up and running and students begin arriving for classes that the party will be over for the guys that hang out at Washington Park.  There is no way that the city will allow this to go on in SCPA's backyard. Lets hope so anyway.

 

The SCPA may be the catalyst that finally forces the city to clean up the park.

They'll have to do something because SCPA will use that park, most likely, for lunch and recess...that'll drive those drunkards and druggies out...HOPEFULLY.

That is a major problem.  It's almost impossible to convince people not to give money to panhandlers.  People just have big hearts I guess, and aren't aware of the consequences of their "generosity".  A lot of cities are now installing "homeless parking meters", and telling the public that if they REALLY want to HELP, they'll put change in the meter instead of in the hands of panhandlers.  This money then gets donated to charities that actually help the homeless:

 

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-10-17-parkingmeters_N.htm

 

I wouldn't mind seeing those installed downtown, if they aren't already (I haven't seen any).  Also, I would support attacking the problem from the other end as well, by passing an ordinance against the act of giving money to a panhandler.  This could be enforceable by ticketing.  If a police officer sees you handing money to someone panhandling, he walks up to you and writes you a ticket.  Nothing major, just $5 maybe.  We're not trying to punish people for being generous after all, but if this is going to stop, we need to give people a reason to quit enabling panhandlers and the ability to say "no" without feeling guilty.  The proceeds from these tickets could either be donated to charities or used to fund the emergency services that prompted our discussion.  Panhandlers are accustomed to having the police talk to them and move them along, whereas your average person just walking around town is not, so this would be far more effective than an ordinance against panhandling itself.

 

As crazy as it might be, the problem with this is that courts have ruled that panhandling is a form of commercial speech protected by the First Amendment.  Thus, it can be regulated but not forbidden. 

 

Cincinnati does require panhandler licenses and the city has a full set of rules that must be obeyed, but the rules are hardly enforced and, when they are enforced, enforcement is not much of a deterrent.

Cincinnati does require panhandler licenses and the city has a full set of rules that must be obeyed, but the rules are hardly enforced and, when they are enforced, enforcement is not much of a deterrent.

 

I don't think licensing for panhandlers exists any more.  Here is a summary of the panhandling ordinance in Cincinnati:

 

http://www.ilivedowntown.com/panhandling.html

 

Most people don't know about the rules for panhandling. 

The problem with the SPCA argument is that the park will be butting up to what is the rear of the school and it's parking lot...am I wrong?  I agree if the park was exposed to the main entrance to the school it might be a different story.

 

Even without the school, how has it gotten to the point where what goes on there is acceptable?  I just don't understand.  If something illegal is being blatantly flaunted, to the point where EMT is at the park more than the police or any non-drug/alcohol abusing user combined, why isn't it addressed?

 

 

 

They'll have to do something because SCPA will use that park, most likely, for lunch and recess...that'll drive those drunkards and druggies out...HOPEFULLY.

Hey, a school operated basically in the park at the north end for 50 years.  I think a school across 12th Street will have even less influence on the park.

As crazy as it might be, the problem with this is that courts have ruled that panhandling is a form of commercial speech protected by the First Amendment.  Thus, it can be regulated but not forbidden. 

 

Well... I've never claimed to be a lawyer.  8-)  Thanks for setting me straight!

 

Hey, a school operated basically in the park at the north end for 50 years. I think a school across 12th Street will have even less influence on the park.

 

Hopefully the difference would be the purpose and amount of money being dumped into the school and surrounding areas.  Still, I'm pessimistic.

 

Is there anything that we can do other than hope things change?  Are there any groups proactively working with/petitioning the city to clean up the park?  Just because it's a public park doesn't mean it needs to be dominated by drug addicts and alcoholics.

 

The problem with the SPCA argument is that the park will be butting up to what is the rear of the school and it's parking lot...am I wrong?  I agree if the park was exposed to the main entrance to the school it might be a different story.

 

When you were in school did you exit via the main entrance for recess and/or lunch?

The problem with the SPCA argument is that the park will be butting up to what is the rear of the school and it's parking lot...am I wrong? I agree if the park was exposed to the main entrance to the school it might be a different story.

 

When you were in school did you exit via the main entrance for recess and/or lunch?

 

I would have if the other entrances put me in immediate harm and/or made me feel unsafe/uncomfortable.

 

 

^So the answer is no.  :laugh:

So does anyone know of any groups working with or petioning the city to clean the park up? 

 

 

What impact, if any, do you think that the City Home project will have on the Park?  http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080803/BIZ01/808030346/1001/BIZ

I am not sure I understand the question.  The park is being redone.  City Home is simply another part of Gateway that also lends to the reasoning behind the park along with the new school and will provide users for the park.  I don't think the city needs to be petitioned at this point, its going to happen.

City leaders have finally set aside arrogance for once and are getting a lot of stuff done.  We don't need anymore petitions.

I guess I don't necessarily understand where the current users (drug addicts/dealers and alcoholics) are going to go?  Is there a timeline for the park redesign? 

 

When I talk about cleaning the park up, I don't necessarily mean cleaning up trash and changing the park's layout, but moving the criminal element out of the park.

So does anyone know of any groups working with or petioning the city to clean the park up? 

 

I was talking about petitioning the city to enforce laws in/around the park instead of ignoring the problem...both now and when the park is re-designed.

 

What impact, if any, do you think that the City Home project will have on the Park?  http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080803/BIZ01/808030346/1001/BIZ

 

In this post I was asking what kind of impact the development on either side of the park can possibly have on the crowd at the park.  Perhaps it forces the police to enforce laws there...perhaps nothing changes....I was hoping to get some other points of view.

 

 

I heard just today that they may be ready to begin work on the Washington Park expansion/redo (including new underground garage on the north end) pretty soon.  The deal with CPS was really the last big hurdle...so I would keep an eye out for things to potentially start moving quickly.

I guess I don't necessarily understand where the current users (drug addicts/dealers and alcoholics) are going to go?  Is there a timeline for the park redesign?

I have heard towards the end of the year the entire park will be fenced off and go under const.  The plans are at the Gateway office now.  As for where the drug addicts and dealers will go, I say they are like water, they will take the path of least resistance so wherever they are left alone to do what they do, that is where they will go.  Fewer and fewer places in OTR are fitting that description any more.

 

I was talking about petitioning the city to enforce laws in/around the park instead of ignoring the problem...both now and when the park is re-designed.

That would be a great question for the Washington Park Safety Sector Meeting.  Call Cheryl at the OTR Chamber of Commerce at 241-2690 for date/time and location. 

 

 

In this post I was asking what kind of impact the development on either side of the park can possibly have on the crowd at the park.

Former Dist. 1 Captain Ken Jones always said that enforcement was only half and had little impact without development.  He was correct when looking at past calls for service at 12th and Vine compared to today.  He was correct in my sector of Mulberry/McMicken as well.  Development puts the eyes in the windows that do not tollerate what has historically happened in OTR and Washington Park will be no exception. 

 

 

I know I have mentioned it a bunch of times but build a dogpark at WP and you will have my eyes from syc/liberty all the way down liberty to Race and 14th weekly. Just imagine all the other eyes which will come from all over OTR/Downtown/West End. 

. 

Just imagine all the other eyes which will come from all over OTR/Downtown/West End.

And teeth!

does anyone have a link to the plans?  I once got it off the gateway quarter website, but the link doesn't work anymore.

These projects (Washington Park, SCPA, City Home, etc.) all are very exciting, but I can't help but feel that we are over estimating the effect they will have for OTR and the basin.  It wasn't long ago when I looked at City West (much larger than all three of the aforementioned projects) and thought "this is going to turn around OTR." I mean, you take the projects, tear them down, and replace them with a huge neighborhood of market rate housing, you should see carry over effects to OTR, right?  While the immediate area where City West is has dramatically improved, there has been little carryover into OTR, and their commercial space cannot be rented.  While I certainly think the different projects in OTR are turning around the neighborhood, I think that the only project with enough steam to really transform the image and the character of the neighborhood is the streetcar.

City West had a huge impact when you look at what was vs what is now.  And I would argue that Gateway would not be as successful as it is already proving to be without projects like City West plus several other things that have happened in the past couple of years downtown that has helped lend to an overall excitement in Downtown, not just the individual project.

 

The sheer size of Gateway is one of the biggest reasons it is so successful.  It is a mix of buildings, old and new.  A mix of price points, high and low.  Plus a good retail mix (which you are correct, city west does not have).  And it has some of the best developers and sales people (who are genuine OTR people themeselves) who are so entrenched in the daily life of OTR and Downtown that they are able to convey the excitement and feeling of being a part of a great redevelopment effort.  But that being said, the Banks helps Gateway, City West helps Gateway, SCPA helps Gateway, and the countless other projects happening in and around downtown all lend to the overall redevelopment story that Gateway embodies.

 

As for the streetcar, it is a protection of this investment that is already in place.  I hear it sold time and time again as a catalyst for development when it is truly the other way around.  We already have a huge investment in Downtown and OTR, the streetcar is simply a way to protect and enhance that investment.

^Exactly.  The park, SCPA, all that stuff are small steps for a bigger picture.  One has a positive snowball affect on the other.

^???

On a project related note, SCPA looks to be just about topped out and has come quite a ways since I last saw it.  Can someone be so kind as to snap a few pictures and post updates here?

 

As for the streetcar, it is a protection of this investment that is already in place. I hear it sold time and time again as a catalyst for development when it is truly the other way around. We already have a huge investment in Downtown and OTR, the streetcar is simply a way to protect and enhance that investment.

 

It is both. 

 

The streetcar is the logical next investment for the city, it supports the type of investments cincinnati has made and will continue to make.  It can be done quickly and will transform the neighborhood of Over the Rhine.  It is going to be difficult to continue the push the of development northward into OTR past 14th street, which is just under a mile from the office core.  The streetcar provides the necessary connection with downtown, the riverfront, the banks, OTR, and uptown.

 

It is going to be difficult to continue the push the of development northward into OTR past 14th street, which is just under a mile from the office core.

I could not disagree more.  The easiest push will be 14th and northward (eastward and westward) and this is with or without the streetcar.  12 to 14th was the hard part as the beginning of any new, unproven project would be and many of the hurdles that were in place are now crashing down.  Trinity will set a new anchor and some other moves will firmly establish 14th as the epicenter of OTR development.  My point is that the streetcar is primarily an enhancement on development that is already happening.  My bigger point is that if for any reason the streetcar fails, will we then be saying development isn't happening or will be diminished somehow now the streetcar went down?  Watch the rhetoric and not get too myopic in our goals, because this type of stuff has come back to bite us before down here.  Gateway stands with other projects in the greater scheme, but stands alone in its own viability.

^I don't think Council is dumb enough to let any kind of transit slip away for downtown at this point.  For once, I actually feel confident the streetcar will happen verrrrryyy soon.

i don't know about verrryy soon, that is a lot of money our boy milton has to scrounge up, but he seems capable

Write a letter to various business entities that have the ability to make an impact.  P&G, Kroger, 5/3, Macy's, Western & Southern, Duke, Reds/Bengals, Convergys, etc.  These people need to hear how important this project is for Cincinnati and their ability to continue to be able to attract the best/brightest talent to their respective companies.

 

The political side of things can be push to the back burner (for now).  It's time to push the business entities like we did with the political side.

This may answer a few questions about cleaning up Washington Park. I wonder if the DIC is feeling the heat to be a good neighbor.

 

Drop Inn Center alters arrest policy

Shelter has other changes in works

By Jane Prendergast • [email protected] • August 5, 2008

 

Under scrutiny recently from some City Council members concerned about the Drop Inn Center's impact on Over-the-Rhine's hoped-for renaissance, shelter operators have been working on changes, executive director Pat Clifford told council's Health Committee members Monday.

 

Some city officials and others have expressed concern about residents hanging around the outside of the shelter and in Washington Park and the image that leaves of the neighborhood.

 

To read more: http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/AB/20080805/NEWS01/808050333&s=d&page=2#pluckcomments

On a project related note, SCPA looks to be just about topped out and has come quite a ways since I last saw it.  Can someone be so kind as to snap a few pictures and post updates here?

 

<a href="http://www.citykin.com/2008/08/scpa-progress-photos.html">http://www.citykin.com/2008/08/scpa-progress-photos.html</a>

On a project related note, SCPA looks to be just about topped out and has come quite a ways since I last saw it.  Can someone be so kind as to snap a few pictures and post updates here?

 

Here you go Randy.  I took some too.

http://queencitysurvey.blogspot.com/2008/08/by-request-scpa.html

It's awesome how fast this is going up.  Man this will be weird because I graduated from SCPA back in '99 and going to a different building for alumni day will be strange.  The designj is great though.

I drove by over the weekend and i am pleased with the the presence it has on central parkway.  For some reason I had the idea that the building was set back substantially from the street.  Should be interesting to see how the cladding comes together.

Great Shots to all!    The shot from the Carew is very uplifting.

^^^Care to share?

Wash Park is an absolute mess right now because of the storms.  Maybe they should just fence it off now until all renovations are done?

a news report said there was a lot of fire damage in OTR, anyone know anything?

a news report said there was a lot of fire damage in OTR, anyone know anything?

 

Come on oneglove...i mean so goes it.  Search around the forum and you'll find plenty of info. regarding that.  Or are you being sarcastic again?!?  Wait, aren't you back in Cincinnati?  Bah! 

Atlas, is that Mr. Oizo in your avatar pic? if so that's freakin hilarious.  I forgot to mention that I emailed someone about the new SCPA, and they said because of cost, they aren't building that gigantic spotlight thats in the renderings.  Kinda disappointing but oh well!

a news report said there was a lot of fire damage in OTR, anyone know anything?

 

Come on oneglove...i mean so goes it. Search around the forum and you'll find plenty of info. regarding that. Or are you being sarcastic again?!? Wait, aren't you back in Cincinnati? Bah!

 

i'm back, but up in the burbs for the moment, and feeling too lazy to search for either the info on here or the actual structures... i demand answers now!

 

 

 

ok, i'll go find it...

a news report said there was a lot of fire damage in OTR, anyone know anything?

 

Come on oneglove...i mean so goes it.  Search around the forum and you'll find plenty of info. regarding that.  Or are you being sarcastic again?!?  Wait, aren't you back in Cincinnati?  Bah! 

 

i'm back, but up in the burbs for the moment, and feeling too lazy to search for either the info on here or the actual structures... i demand answers now!

 

 

 

ok, i'll go find it...

 

ew, fairfield!  :-D