For the first time, concertgoers will be able to drive into a parking garage and walk directly into Music Hall or Memorial Hall without ever stepping outside.  :roll:

 

The whole idea is to revitalize the area, but all of these measures such as parking garages and changing the seating configuration in Music Hall are missing the target.  Groups of junkies pour out of the Drop Inn Center like a bunch of zombies.  They spend all day drinking and using drugs in Washington Park, yelling at people and committing crimes.  In fact, during the crime initiative by the Cincinnati Police, hundreds of crimes were traced to residents of the Drop Inn Center. 

 

If the Drop Inn Center was relocated to Queensgate, Washington Park would change overnight.  It would become livable again.

 

Don't take my word for it...go down to Washington Park and walk around for an hour or two.

 

 

^the Drop Inn Center is not going to relocate.  3CDC and the city will have to figure a way to work with them.

 

The drawings of the parking garage next to music hall leaves a lot to the imagination.  If they had a big budget they could build a very cool building, however with no budget, it looks like they are going to try to hide the garage behind mirrors and greenery.  My understanding is that this garage is also required for the new SCPA building, so it will be serving several functions, not just Music Hall.

Those crackpot drawings make 3CDC look like sh*t, what kind of crappy artist did they use? They arn't even worth posting.

I like glass and steel but it has no right in OTR~!  :x I want to see a brick and stone parking garage. Samuel Hannaford is rolling in his grave right now..

^ i agree that these sketches leave quite a bit to the imagination...but what im imagining is something quite beautiful.  anyone that says contemporary and traditional dont mix just isnt willing to accept that times have changed.  we arent living in 1880...its 2006.  Just imagine a seemless glass wall glowing with light securing the gab between these two historic structures.  it would create the same quality as is done every day (and approved by most members on this discussion) with conversion of historic buildings into contemporary living spaces.  the gleam of contemporary butted right next to treasure of historic.  i can imagine numerous instances where this has been successfull in places like new york, any european city...but only if done properly.  so stop saying glass and steal do not belong in over the rhine.

Division over new OTR garage

 

BY JON NEWBERRY | ENQUIRER STAFF WRITER

 

OVER-THE-RHINE – A proposed Music Hall garage stirred strong reactions from preservationist groups tonight after details were unveiled for the first time at an Over-the-Rhine community meeting organized by Cincinnati Center City Development Corp. (3CDC).

 

The eight-level, 632-space Music Hall Square, as 3CDC is calling it, would be sandwiched into an irregular-shaped lot south of Music Hall between Memorial Hall on Elm Street and the Pipefitters Local 392 building on Central Parkway. All three of the buildings are on the National Register of Historic Places.

 

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061102/NEWS01/311020029/1056/COL02

Uh, people have been able to park in the garage across Central Parkway and walk on that covered skywalk without setting foot on the ground since around 1977 or whenever that was built.  If they need more parking in the area, as I mentioned previously, there is more land adjacent to the existing garage or a new underground garage could be built under part of Washington Park, especially the part that will be vacated after the elementary school leaves.

 

 

I wouldn't outright condemn the plan from the drawings but the projection screen sounds kinda tacky.

http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/classical/

I don't think it is too much to think that people don't want to walk around in bad weather in their evening clothes.

I am assuming the garage would be handicap friendly. That would be a plus for aging patrons.

I was at the meeting last night, and I think the design is great.  The fact is that Memorial and Music Halls are both big, iconic buildings that stylistically are very different.  Any building you try to design between them to "fit in" will end up looking fake and out of place.  One of the important standards of designing historic infill is that you don't always try to replicate what might have been there, but that you treat additions to be respectful of the historic fabric but also as of their own time.  The architects talked about using very clear glass, and that can really disappear in the right conditions.  I do like the projection screen, but it might be a bit much for the location.

 

I agree about the concerns that people won't step foot outside, but let's face it, they don't now unless they absolutely have to.  But a large portion of the garage would  be for the new SCPA and it's performances, and that would drive some foot traffic around the park.

3cdc has a pdf of the Music Hall Square Garage Presentation. I pulled a few pics from it. The design doesn't overwhelmed these landmarks. If it helps keep these two institutions viable, I'm all for it. Based on the pdf it looks the garage can be built around the Pipefitters building if necessary. I have no sympathy for the preservationist, they have over 500 eye sores in OTR to deal with and haven't done shit and yet they need to complain about any new construction. Tough.

 

 

 

http://www.3cdc.org/otrrapsessions

Those look MUCH better.

>I have no sympathy for the preservationist, they have over 500 eye sores in OTR to deal with and haven't done shit and yet they need to complain about any new construction.

 

Wrong.  It is, absolutely, possible to create a parking garage that could look great.  These drawings are so typical of the vague type of computer renderings that can't be escaped these days.  They pass for prefessionalism without giving any remotely clear indication of what the heck is planned. As I have pointed out repeatedly on these boards, old monochromatic pen and pencil drawings from the early 1900's performed the task much more effectively. 

 

Not only is it possible to create new buildings that fit in with existing old ones, it is being done.  Here is the new county courthouse in downtown Knoxville, TN.  This was completed in 1997 and sits directly across the street from the old courthouse which was completed around 1830.  It looks good in these pictures and absolutely fantastic in person.

 

 

 

And last but not least, the entrances to the underground parking garage:

Garage has plan, but no land

BY JON NEWBERRY | ENQUIRER STAFF WRITER

 

OVER-THE-RHINE - Cincinnati Center City Development Corp. (3CDC) unveiled its plans for a new Music Hall garage this week, saying it would like to begin construction early next year. But a critical piece of the plan is not yet in place - the land.

 

The Pipefitters Union Local 392 owns all of the land that the proposed 632-space garage would occupy, and a historic building on the same block that serves as union headquarters. Initially, 3CDC considered tearing down the Pipefitters building to make way for the garage.

 

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061104/NEWS01/611040350/1077/COL02

^ :lol:

From the 11/17/06 Enquirer:

 

 

Washington Park planning begins

THE ENQUIRER

 

OVER-THE-RHINE - Residents in Over-the-Rhine expressed concerns Thursday about the planned closing of Washington Park Elementary School.

 

But they also got a chance to tell the Cincinnati Park Board how they'd like to see Washington Park improved once the school is gone. The board plans to expand the park, which occupies most of the block across Elm Street from Music Hall.

 

Suggestions were solicited at a forum organized by 3CDC, which is picking up half the cost of the planning.

 

Recommendations are to be made by a community steering committee after a series of neighborhood meetings beginning in January.

 

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061117/NEWS01/611170367/1056/COL02

 

>I have no sympathy for the preservationist, they have over 500 eye sores in OTR to deal with and haven't done shit and yet they need to complain about any new construction.

 

Wrong.  It is, absolutely, possible to create a parking garage that could look great.  These drawings are so typical of the vague type of computer renderings that can't be escaped these days.  They pass for prefessionalism without giving any remotely clear indication of what the heck is planned. As I have pointed out repeatedly on these boards, old monochromatic pen and pencil drawings from the early 1900's performed the task much more effectively. 

 

Not only is it possible to create new buildings that fit in with existing old ones, it is being done.  Here is the new county courthouse in downtown Knoxville, TN.  This was completed in 1997 and sits directly across the street from the old courthouse which was completed around 1830.  It looks good in these pictures and absolutely fantastic in person.

 

 

 

And last but not least, the entrances to the underground parking garage:

 

Haha...the fact that you are using this building as an example only strengthens my point.  while knoxville's newer courthouse is attractive, it becomes lost in the mediocrity of that portion of downtown.  that building is the reflection of a city so bogged down with its backward thinking it wouldnt know what good design was if it hit it in the face. in an attempt to compliment the architecture of the original courthouse it was imediately overwhelmed by the scale and similarity of the newer building.  to my point, not only would a more forward thinking design have distinguished the two buildings from one another but it also would have signaled to the public that the city is ready to start thinking on its own again. 

 

why confuse whats truely sacred...Music Hall and Memorial Hall...with whats not...a parking garage.  Build something that will distinguish these two magnificent structures with the prominance they deserve while and the same time showing to the rest of the country and world that cincinnati is ready to move beyond its past.  over the rhine is a treasure chest and i believe that every building that can should be preserved.  staying in touch with our past is absolutely important and thats why locals take great pride in our numerous historic masterpieces...but that doesnt mean we cant connect to the present as well.  i believe where possible, over the rhine should be a showcase of fantastic architecture...historic and new

If the developer can't pass the cost of extra parking lot amenities over in some form of higher fees than the developer isn't going to give you a basic well functioning lot.

>staying in touch with our past is absolutely important and thats why locals take great pride in our numerous historic masterpieces...but that doesnt mean we cant connect to the present as well.  i believe where possible, over the rhine should be a showcase of fantastic architecture...historic and new

 

I'll bet you $10 (or the price of one full day of parking) this new garage will look like crap.  The Gateway condos and garage were a disaster despite hiring one of the trendiest architecture firms in the country.  If we can send a pair of golf carts to Mars, we can design a decent looking parking garage, but nobody gives a freaking damn.  Knoxville is a nightmare but the new courthouse is better than anything built in Cincinnati in the last ten years, as is the new neoclassic symphony hall in Nashville.     

staying in touch with our past is absolutely important and thats why locals take great pride in our numerous historic masterpieces...but that doesnt mean we cant connect to the present as well.  i believe where possible, over the rhine should be a showcase of fantastic architecture...historic and new

 

I agree we have some fantastic new Modern Architecture in OTR.  This gem is one of my favorites.

 

Are you being sarcastic?

Are you being sarcastic?

 

Yeah, he's being sarcastic...that health center is hideous.  :laugh:

This article appeared in the 11/15/06 issue of CityBeat:

 

 

A Matter of Ownership 

As usual, 3CDC presentation leaves questions

By T.K. Hall

 

Things were going fine at the Cincinnati Center City Development Corp.'s (3CDC) Over-the-Rhine "rap session" Nov. 2 at Memorial Hall until Pipefitters Union Local 392 spoke up.

The second of three 3CDC community meetings focused on building a parking garage between Music Hall and Memorial Hall and west to Central Parkway.

 

http://www.citybeat.com/2006-11-15/news3.shtml

 

>staying in touch with our past is absolutely important and thats why locals take great pride in our numerous historic masterpieces...but that doesnt mean we cant connect to the present as well.  i believe where possible, over the rhine should be a showcase of fantastic architecture...historic and new

 

I'll bet you $10 (or the price of one full day of parking) this new garage will look like crap.  The Gateway condos and garage were a disaster despite hiring one of the trendiest architecture firms in the country.  If we can send a pair of golf carts to Mars, we can design a decent looking parking garage, but nobody gives a freaking damn.  Knoxville is a nightmare but the new courthouse is better than anything built in Cincinnati in the last ten years, as is the new neoclassic symphony hall in Nashville.      

 

different strokes for different folks...you obviously just prefer traditional architecture which obviously is fine.  but to say that THIS courthouse and a Neoclassical building in Nashville are better than any buildings designed in cincinnati for the past ten years only confirms your bias.  i would start the list, but thats not what this thread is about.

 

make it glass 

I personally don't like what they did with the glass but it should be well noted that unifying those two disparately designed structures would be difficult.

make it glass 

Why don't we just make it vinyl siding? Historic Districts have guidelines so that shite doesn't happen.

I think vinyl siding only applies to low income folks that live in Historic Districts which OTR has plenty of. Really, have you seen some of the rehabs done for low income folks? No one seems to be complaining about that. Yet, people get all hot and bother by any new construction in OTR.

"Why don't we just make it vinyl siding? Historic Districts have guidelines so that shite doesn't happen."

 

I dont get it?  Are you comparing glass to vinyl siding?

people get all hot and bother by any new construction in OTR.

Moonpoop

Well let's see...  New construction in OTR:  Shell station, KFC, Crossroads health center, The fugly kroger garage etc.  I'm glad there isn't much new construction because so far it is all crap, including the proposed new glass "parking garage" in between 2 gems. I care alot about OTR and look at it as sacred ground so of course I get a little upset when suburbanites want to come into OTR and change it. If I want to see glass buildings I go downtown.  :-D When I want to see vinyl siding I go to Mt healthy

Visit Cambridge, MA for the country's greatest concentration of vinyl siding rehabs going for $5 million. 

 

>different strokes for different folks...you obviously just prefer traditional architecture which obviously is fine.  but to say that THIS courthouse and a Neoclassical building in Nashville are better than any buildings designed in cincinnati for the past ten years only confirms your bias.  i would start the list, but thats not what this thread is about.

 

So far as being solid additions to their downtowns and especially in the case of Nashville's symphony hall expanding the actual size of downtown, there is certainly nothing in Cincinnati that has done that in ten years.  The Aronoff maybe, but that's 11 years so it doesn't count.  Where are these magnificent buildings hiding in Cincinnati? A dozen major renovations, but that's not what we are talking about. Oh yeah, I almost forgot about the Delta Reservation Center.  Sorry.   

 

Glaserworks defended its work on the basis that the two architectural styles are incongruent and that, by using the glass, the two are neutralized.

 

It's like mixing blue and red to make clear.   

 

Company representatives also pointed out that the glass foyer will also serve as a "projection screen." Glaserworks' idea is to project outside what is happening inside either of the buildings, be it a symphony, opera or ballet.

 

Yeah they could have projected me decking some Junior in the ballroom at the Homecoming Dance back in 1995 and then I could have gone out and run a victory lap around the park, hi-fiving all the bums.

 

Another criticism of the design was its suburbanality. Both Steve Haber and Mike Moose of Glaserworks said the design is ideal because patrons can enter the garage and building without ever having to go outside.

 

They can already do that by parking in the garage across Central Parkway and taking the pedestrian bridge.  That's what it's there for. 

 

Glaserworks hopes to include a public plaza between Music Hall and Memorial Hall, where patrons can gather and look across to Washington Park.

 

Yeah, hold their opera glasses in one hand and can of bear spray in the other.

 

 

I'm glad somebody agrees with me. :-D

 

 

Dear Board Members:

 

Cincinnati Preservation Association (CPA) would like to comment on the design of the proposed Music Hall Garage.

 

We appreciate the difficulty involved in designing an infill building to harmonize with two architectural landmarks of strikingly dissimilar styles and materials. We also are pleased to see that the Odeon/Pipefitters’ Building will be preserved. Nonetheless, we believe the proposed garage design needs more refinement to help it better fit into the surrounding context.

 

The proposed garage is both too bulky and too tall, towering over Music and Memorial halls when it should defer to its neighbors instead. The design is also uninspired and lacking in creativity.

 

Moreover, with the materials available so far, it is difficult to visualize the building’s impact on the streetscape. A more detailed plan, a three-dimensional view and, if possible, an actual building model would be helpful.

 

Before committing to build a garage on this prime site, the City must determine that this is the best way to meet the parking needs of Music Hall, Memorial Hall and the new SCPA. A more creative programming process, with more consultation with stakeholders, would be greatly beneficial. 

 

This site is too important to expend without additional study.  It deserves the most careful consideration.

 

 

Sincerely,

 

 

Perhaps this plan should be resurrected.

 

A good portion of that plan was built, although not exactly as shown.

A good portion of that plan was built, although not exactly as shown.

 

I thought so, but the Music Hall design was what I found interesting.

Public Meeting, Feb. 1st at 6PM for Washington Park Master Plan

There will be a Follow-up Meeting March 27th.

 

As many of you know, the Cincinnati Park Board in partnership with 3CDC is developing a new master plan for Washington Park. A first step in this process is a public meeting at Memorial Hall on February 1st. Please join us for this meeting and spread the word to your respective organizations and others interested in the future of Washington Park and OTR. We hope to see you there.

Steven Schuckman, Superintendent, Planning & Design; Cincinnati Parks

Park's master plan garners public input

Washington Park to expand

BY JON NEWBERRY | [email protected]

February 2, 2007

 

OVER-THE-RHINE - More than 100 people gathered at Memorial Hall on Thursday night to start developing a master plan for an expanded and revitalized Washington Park.

 

The Cincinnati Parks Department held the public meeting, the first of three scheduled, to map out the future of the six-acre park.

 

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070202/NEWS01/702020411/1056/COL02

Smith Hammelrath said his wife Marge, director of the Over-the-Rhine Foundation, wants to put a Ferris wheel in the park - tall enough that people could see downtown - and maybe a merry-go-round.

I generally do not use the icons but this deserves one. :drunk:

^I agree that some of the suggestions seem totally assinine...another reason why the public should be left out fo the planning process  :laugh:

Well if SCPA doesn't happen, then does the controversial Music Hall garage? 

 

Anyway, here is a map of the area.  Obviously the Washington Park School footprint is much larger than the area where the Music Hall garage is planned, specifically the core area of the Music Hall Garage site is 150X150 whereas 380X250 for the school.  A two-level underground garage would easily provide 500 spaces, there is a lot of opportunity here for the city to create a garage which would both provide event parking for Music Hall and could provide monthly parking for nearby residents.  Those who have crunched the numbers say there are not enough street and surface spots (even if every empty lot were paved for parking) if OTR were to gain 5,000 new car-owning residents. 

 

...another reason why the public should be left out fo the planning process 

 

Why should the people who are going to use the space be left out of the planning stage? That sounds like a recipe for a space that guaranties no one will even use.

In the "cool cities" the trend seems to be to include as many people as possible.

 

beta community

I think that was just a response to my poking fun of Marge, not a serious comment.

streetcars will help with parking ratios

Marge must have been smoking some of that funny stuff they sell on republic st.  Video screens? ferris wheels??  oh man... If anywhere, I say put the ferris wheel in the banks area, that would be more appropriate.

Well I am all for bumper cars, but Ferris wheels? 

Anyway, it is a bit informative to go back through the thread and read what Marge and residents of Pendleton were saying about 3CDC and the school board months ago and now apply it to where we are today.  Put everything together from their proposed lawsuits, media spins about SCPA and their general distrust that they tried to stir up about 3CDC, and it was inevitable that the whole Washington park progress is no further along than it is.  But we all need our green space and a school full of luxury condos I guess.

Smith Hammelrath said his wife Marge, director of the Over-the-Rhine Foundation, wants to put a Ferris wheel in the park - tall enough that people could see downtown - and maybe a merry-go-round.

I generally do not use the icons but this deserves one. :drunk:

I made a visit with the kids to the carousel in Mansfield, and it is hugely successful.  It even brought tourists like myself.  This is the dreaming stage for the park.. no reason to shoot all  the ideas down right away.

>streetcars will help with parking ratios

 

Help, but not get things below 50%, let alone approach it.  New construction will tend to have enough parking for residents but there's no guarantee that there will be enough for existing buildings.  The answer is subsurface garages in available open spaces such as Washington Park and under wide streets like Liberty St.  Garages under wide streets are very common in Europe and the Fountain Square garage extends under 5th (it seems to abut the foundation of the Westin).  There's absolutely no way I would get an apartment in Over-the-Rhine without secure parking for my car, it already got broken into on 4th St. and I'm sure that would be a weekly occurance above Liberty St.       

 

 

I made a visit with the kids to the carousel in Mansfield, and it is hugely successful.  It even brought tourists like myself.  This is the dreaming stage for the park.. no reason to shoot all  the ideas down right away.

 

I agree.

 

The carousel in New York's central park is an icon.  Ferris wheels and carousels are not an unheard of item in urban parks in Europe.  I don't think we should be criticizing ideas or suggestions coming out of what was essentially a brain storming session.

My critism comes from experience with Marge and the Foundation and that experience has turned into frustration and contempt for this organization.  If I seem overly harsh towards them, it is not just because of one idea out of the mouth of Marge, but the culmination of a whole series of problems that has been perpetuated in OTR at the hands of this group.

Washington Park plans get public viewing

2 proposals envision big changes

BY JON NEWBERRY | [email protected]

March 28, 2007

 

OVER-THE-RHINE - A consultant hired by the Cincinnati Parks Department to help design an expanded Washington Park presented four possible configurations for the Over-the-Rhine park at a public meeting Tuesday evening.

 

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070328/NEWS01/703280340/1058/NEWS01

Oh brother here comes the nazis to our hood..

 

Nazi Group Plans March In Cincinnati

Posted By: Richard Chiles

 

A group of self-proclaimed Nazis has scheduled a march through Over-the-Rhine later this month.

The same group was implicated in riots in Toledo in 2005.

 

The American National Socialist workers party has been granted a permit for the march April 20 at noon; Adolf Hitler's birthday.

 

The group will march against black crime in Cincinnati, and hold speeches in a local park.

 

Cincinnati police plan to increase patrols for the march.

 

 

Oh brother here comes the nazis to our hood..

Nazi Group Plans March In Cincinnati

 

Easy come, easy go.... :wave:

 

City reroutes march; Nazis to sue

City manager Milton Dohoney has told Cincinnati police to find a new route outside of Over-the-Rhine for a planned April 20 march by a neo-Nazi group.