668 is gateway.  It doesn't include the "theatre district" per say, but does include the osborn and huron square, joshua hall, the new prospect place, and winton manor.  Sometimes you'll see some overlap in what is considered gateway and what is considered the theatre district... but HGN uses those buildings.

 

By the way, the caluculation often used is number of units x 1.5

I'm guilty of using this Critical Mass buzzword while having no idea what it really means.  It's been interesting in reading this thread to discover the origins of the term.  Apparently Ned Hill's number is 25k and somebody else has a 15k number.  But can anyone help me understand the concept of Critical Mass?  What does this number divide, and why does it do so?  Since downtown Cleveland has presumably never reached Critical Mass, what evidence supports the theory?  How has it played out in practice?

^Some of those questions are answered on the previous page of this thread

I thought it was clear from my post that I had just read that page.

 

I just read it again, and my curiosity remains.

Also from reading the thread I gathered that the 25K number came from what has been stated as the amount that would support a full sized grocery store.  I think the 15K may be in response to the fact that the area of downtown is smaller.  Thereby the per sq mile of people would reach the "critical mass."

 

I think that the "critical mass" is very much in the eye of the beholder, but that it is between 15K and 25K.

Well, I live downtown. I guess that means it reached critical mass for ME. Critical mass is a concept that has no meaning unless you attach a milestone to it. Some people talked about the full service grocery, or a book store, or whatever interests them. Ok so for me it would be a local saltwater fish store like Manhattan Aquarium but hey, thats a little far off topic and requires a critical mass of about 1 million residents!

 

Another way to look at it is as a combination of factors that creates a lifestyle change. Maybe critical mass for me to not need a car living downtown except for work commute might be one of these numbers people throw around, like 25k. Maybe it will take 42,550 downtown residents before Aldo opens in Tower City instead of a local shoe store, and I don't have to drive to North Olmstead to get ripped off on over priced made in China shoes.

 

At some point critical mass might have been enough residents to support enough businesses to launch the downtown cleveland alliance, so as to enhance safety and cleanliness. But we have that now...so did we reach CM?

 

I think critical mass is subjective, and in a real way a moving target. It is different for everyone, and arguing over the approximate population skirts the point.

Also from reading the thread I gathered that the 25K number came from what has been stated as the amount that would support a full sized grocery store.  I think the 15K may be in response to the fact that the area of downtown is smaller.  Thereby the per sq mile of people would reach the "critical mass."

 

I think that the "critical mass" is very much in the eye of the beholder, but that it is between 15K and 25K.

 

That's how it appears.  But I don't understand it.  The fact that nobody can agree on the boundaries of downtown makes me wonder how any such number can be ascertainable.  How is downtown to be separated from the "center city" for these calculations?  What purpose would that separation serve?  OK Stonebridge is technically in Ohio City.  So what?

 

Would this not also suggest that no community under 25k (15K?) could support a grocery store?  Or that if you divide a larger community by its number of grocery stores you should get a number between 15k and 25k?  Do we have data on this?

 

I think Niles is under 25k, but it has several grocery stores.  But Niles has communities around it, just like downtown Cleveland does.  Maybe people from Girard shop at one of Niles' many grocers.  Nope... Girard is smaller, and poorer than Niles or downtown Cleveland, yet it supports its own grocers.  Has Ned Hill been to Girard?  I believe McDonald even has its own grocery, and nothing about McDonald says "critical mass."

 

Thus, I'm skeptical about this theory.  Extremely skeptical.  I don't even understand its basis.  Were businesses consulted about why they don't always follow these rules?  What I'm not skeptical about is downtown Cleveland's ability to prosper regardless of critical mass.

 

Well, I live downtown. I guess that means it reached critical mass for ME. Critical mass is a concept that has no meaning unless you attach a milestone to it. Some people talked about the full service grocery, or a book store, or whatever interests them. Ok so for me it would be a local saltwater fish store like Manhattan Aquarium but hey, thats a little far off topic and requires a critical mass of about 1 million residents!

...

I think critical mass is subjective, and in a real way a moving target. It is different for everyone, and arguing over the approximate population skirts the point.

 

I find it interesting that you see prospective residents measuring "critical mass" by what retail would be available to them.  That's more in line with how I see it.

I find it interesting that you see prospective residents measuring "critical mass" by what retail would be available to them. That's more in line with how I see it.

 

Well, I guess retail and other services, like medical services, Indian restaurants, doggie daycare, you get the point. As the population grows the variety and redundancy improves thereby incrementally attracting those people looking in from the margins. They visit a friend who lives in the city and realize, "Hey, I could live here, and my lifestyle would improve." Maybe that person needed to see that there is a tanning salon and a vegan restaurant. Boom, there is resident 10,001 or whatever.

 

The same thing can happen in reverse. I know plenty of people who don't live near the city because they can't get enough distance from them to their neighbor, there are no local places to pick your own fruit, and you can't keep a horse. So there is nothing saying we will grow to a point where suddenly, there will be an influx of people living an urban lifestyle. Its much more likely an external influence like fuel price would do that.

The key point for me is that the residents decide to move in AFTER and BECAUSE OF available retail.  You don't get to this magic population number BEFORE the retail scene emerges.  To me, this realization destroys the Critical Mass theory as stated.  The theory is backwards, and it doesn't survive comparison to observable patterns.

Its much more likely an external influence like fuel price would do that.

 

I think it's a combination of a lot of things. People move into downtowns for many reasons, not just the price of fuel.

 

327, I have an honest question for you. Why did Tower City and the Galleria, in their original incarnations, fail?

Comparing Niles to Downtown Cleveland isn't really applicable.  Girard, Cortland, Champion, etc do not have any malls or shopping outlets like Niles.  Every community outside of the Cleveland city limits seem to have their own mall.  Until Crocker Park or Legacy Village close you're not going to see people from the burbs drive downtown to shop.  Period end of story. 

327, I have an honest question for you. Why did Tower City and the Galleria, in their original incarnations, fail?

 

Galleria:  We didn't need two malls, and this one had no anchor.  Automatic fail.

 

Tower City:  That's what I'd like to know.  When we compare Cleveland to other similar downtowns, it looks to me like there's a difference in policy regarding major retail.  Dillards may have required a level of subsidy Cleveland wasn't willing to meet.  Another thing I've noticed is that many downtown retail landlords here enjoy pricing themselves out of the market.  They'd rather sit empty than take a lower rent.  This goes against basic market economics.  Someone should be filling those spaces but greed is intervening.

 

So maybe FCE was/is charging too much.  Either way, the total financial picture wasn't sufficient for Dillards or anyone else.  Other cities solve this problem with subsidies; we haven't thus far.  We subsidize residential instead.  The way FCE has casually moved non-retail into the Higbee space tells me they aren't serious about saving the mall as retail, because retail typically doesn't work without an anchor store.

 

Every community outside of the Cleveland city limits seem to have their own mall. 

 

What map are you looking at?  Where's Lakewood's mall?  That's 50k people in a city designed specifically to take advantage of downtown retail.  Are you counting Beachwood/Legacy for 7-8 different east side communities?  It sounds like you are.  Is that fair to downtown, when we refuse to count Ohio City or Old Brooklyn as being within its market area?  What is the scientific reason for using different rules for downtown?  Under this "new math," of course downtown will fail.

 

Comparing Niles to Downtown Cleveland isn't really applicable.  Girard, Cortland, Champion, etc do not have any malls or shopping outlets like Niles. 

 

We were talking about grocery stores.  That example applied to grocery stores.

 

Until Crocker Park or Legacy Village close you're not going to see people from the burbs drive downtown to shop.  Period end of story. 

 

Based on what?  You mean the inner ring too?  Based on what?  What about the rest of Cleveland?  People keep saying this sort of thing, and I find it so pessimistic.  I might accept it as realistic if it were more than an assertion.  If all the weight behind it is "Ned Hill says," I'm still calling it an assertion. 

 

And I've heard before about the imbalance of retail space we have here.  How does that affect people in the downtown market area?  Other than making them buy cars to drive to the suburbs... it doesn't.  It doesn't change their need for urban retail.  They remain the exact same underserved market regardless of any suburban retail glut.

I believe the current population for downtown Councilman Cimperman quoted at our last Ave. Dist. association meeting was 13,000 residents.  I'm not sure what his boundaries are, however.

Its much more likely an external influence like fuel price would do that.

 

I think it's a combination of a lot of things. People move into downtowns for many reasons, not just the price of fuel.

 

I only cited fuel price as one possible pressure. The point is that critical mass is not a pressure, but rather the fallout from meeting many individual critical mass targets is attractive amenities for outside residents considering the move downtown. Or anywhere for that matter.

I don't personally see why subsidies should be given to a department store/retail operation that should be locating in a place that can be supported by the population. Stores need to make a profit. That's what makes them a BUSINESS. And they won't locate in a place that can't support them. What is the point of subsidizing stores just to maintain the facade of, "Hey, look .. we have big, shiny department stores like New York or Chicago .. aren't we grand??"

 

I, personally, would much rather see a downtown neighborhood that is supported by its residents and is created by the evolution of market forces/demand. That's how downtowns/cities were created in the first place.

 

Now, the argument can be brought up that downtown subsidies shouldn't be given to residents, either. Honestly .. I'd completely agree with that. I hate the fact that apartments/condos have to be subsidized to bring people downtown. But I think that that's just so completely indicative of what a deep problem urban sprawl is to a city like Cleveland.

 

And honestly, if people need to be lured downtown to live, and subsidies (tax abatement) need to be given to any group of people, I'd rather it be the residents over the stores, as much as I hate the thought. I can wait for the stores. The residents are the ones who will be supporting the services, and in order for downtown to really grow into a more vibrant community, I think the residential base is the one that needs to grow most of all.

 

Tower City and the Galleria failed, in my opinion, because they in and of themselves were intended to bring people downtown. But why should people come downtown when they have similar malls in the suburbs, where most of the residents in the region live?? Because of the novelty of coming downtown? That's absurd.

 

The problem of Cleveland's urban sprawl has been occuring over decades, and over those decades, there have been LOTS of projects that were brought to the table with the glittering promises of bringing tons of people downtown. To a certain extent, they've worked .. but the vast majority of those people don't STAY downtown. In order for Cleveland's downtown to really evolve and become truly vibrant, urban sprawl needs to be reversed. Unfortunately, it probably never will be completely. But that's a much larger problem than just bringing in retail.

 

I think it can happen. But people need to stop seeing it as flash-in-the-pan projects that will do it. Because that's what they've tried so far, and it hasn't worked. What it does take, though, is time .. patience .. and lots of work.

Until Crocker Park or Legacy Village close you're not going to see people from the burbs drive downtown to shop. Period end of story.

 

I don't know about these simulated cities/lifestyle centers(LCs). When I go to these places, and I do sometimes, I feel like its a sham. Its a mall...I can...drive through? No roof? What if it rains or...snows? I guess what I mean is these are designed to simulate a city feel while presenting mall diversity and convenience. Well, we have the city feel downtown, now we need to simulate a mall people would actually want to shop at. I live right in the city an never shop at TC, its terrible. Its not because of Legacy and Crocker that people won't shop there, its because there is no compelling reason to come to TC. There is no connection between waiting for LCs to close and TC coming into its own.

Until Crocker Park or Legacy Village close you're not going to see people from the burbs drive downtown to shop. Period end of story.

 

I don't know about these simulated cities/lifestyle centers(LCs). When I go to these places, and I do sometimes, I feel like its a sham. Its a mall...I can...drive through? No roof? What if it rains or...snows? I guess what I mean is these are designed to simulate a city feel while presenting mall diversity and convenience. Well, we have the city feel downtown, now we need to simulate a mall people would actually want to shop at. I live right in the city an never shop at TC, its terrible. Its not because of Legacy and Crocker that people won't shop there, its because there is no compelling reason to come to TC. There is no connection between waiting for LCs to close and TC coming into its own.

 

Honestly, I don't see these lifestyle centers lasting long term.

 

They're artificial downtown facsimiles, brought into the convenience of the suburbs. I think true downtowns are much more than that.

Yet another thread taken over by a retail conversation

I usually hear the term in regards to a city's goal being a place that's active "24/7". Now, for the 10,000+ residents figure I don't think it really matters if you have a sporadic population in a neighborhood, be that downtown or elsewhere. There needs to be a good concentration of residential in the same area rather than several stand-alone developments.

Thanks to 327.  Seems like in every thread that's all that is talked about when discussing downtown.  Some people just do NOT get it. 

^he may have started that way but everyone else kept going.  And critical mass is an important topic when discussing retail.  It would be nice to know what all kinds of different stores needed in residents in X miles in order to open.  Then we would know what the number of people would be.  Unfortenately it is all speculative from our part. 

Been reading these comments. My take is that N.E. Ohio (Ohio in general really, but let's just talk here) has completely overbuilt and saturated retail until it has cannibalized itself. (example Rite Aid on one corner..and across the street CVS-One closes) We have over built until the point other things close. What has usually closed in any given area are locally owned/independents. The clone zone chain gang is what a downtown retail scene has to compete with these days. When Jacobs built the mall in Strongsville, after vehement opposition, it basically killed his own mall at the Galleria, as I was informed from a good source when he built that, he was already luring retailers out of it to go to S.ville.

 

Ok, so knowing what the competition is...I have come to the conclusion that if any old historic downtown urban core is to survive amidst this haphazard retail scene in the burbs, it must define itself exclusively as a place the endangered species of local/independent businesses can consolidate in one area and thrive together. The target market would be people like me who refuse to shop at sprawl scenes anymore. Those who want a different experience and who are willing to pay a little extra to enjoy the real street downtown shopping experience. No longer will they have to run all over creation to seek out these unique businesses.

 

It is also crucial, that the selection is not only unique enough to draw those from the region, but also it has to be a selection to create a fully functional downtown..and this means businesses which serve the needs of daily life to where you can minimize car dependency. The walkable place is an attraction to those who want this sort of thing, as we all know. (I do realize downtown already does serve many daily needs, but it could be a bit better)

 

These are the kinds of businesses that we should more or less be going after to help fill the downtown again, in addition to the retail plan of DTA. I think it would be a nice complimentary blend. If someone...I don't know who.. But if someone can get such businesses to come to the center with deals they cannot refuse on leases etc, as this would help encourage the entrepreneurial spirit of those who wish to start up their business (those who don't want to suit up and work for Wal-Mart) We have given freebies to the big guys for decades hoping they'd ride in and save us all like The Lone Ranger, and that has not worked all the time. maybe it is time to tap back into our local roots and get these landlords at the table with potential tenants and get something going. Does such have to be as difficult to do as getting Mid east peace talks going?

 

 

As for what area should define today's downtown? In my opinion, whether you live in Tremont, O.C. the near east side in Asia T. etc..etc..  ALL of this should be defined as downtown, because all are in such a short distance of each other. I don't think the imaginary line should stop at Ohio City, when many of these residents criss cross and support each other, as well as the heart of downtown. Thus, the new boundaries could really include these near side neighborhoods. It would be like 'annexing' them as a part of the new accepted boundaries to determine just who could potentially support the core.

 

Overall, downtown potentially gets support from those in the suburbs and those in the city itself. Those who are lower income in the city itself, would likely support the lull and deception of cheap prices at sprawl-mart, etc... Those who live in and move into the city looking for something different, would support such an independent retail scene as I described above.

 

Anyway, that is just my take from operating a small shop for 10 years and discovering what I wished would come of what was left of the small local retail/service scene--and had several others agree. I operated a custom aquarium shop as a matter of fact, very museum-ish and higher end...but I catered to everyone. Often the service, quality, knowledge and experience of my store was worth it to everyone who shopped in it, as opposed to the heartless sprawl scene that offered the cheap price on the surface, but at the cost of people being denied what means so much more after point of sale. They found they spent more in the long run. But that is my take as a small business operator. If downtown had offers to me that would cater as much to me as the big guys, I might even consider opening up another custom aquarium shop again in downtown Cleveland. But I guess 100 small and health quality businesses are not as good as that one big chain store we have been so accustomed to seeing all over. Wow, do you think someone might want something different for a change?

 

And I agree with 327, if Girard/Niles, etc can support what they support with their population, then downtown can support more. Cleveland should broaden its scope of what downtown includes in its 'un-official' boundaries.

Yet another thread taken over by a retail conversation

 

It's a critical mass conversation.  It seems to me (opinion) that the critical mass issue is one of retail, i.e. they're inseparable.  If you disagree, that's still a critical mass conversation.

They go hand in hand, don't they?... People don't just show up somewhere for no draw or reason. What was the original point of living in cities? You need some mass to serve the retail..and retail to serve the mass. Which comes first? Chicken or egg?

They go hand in hand, don't they?... People don't just show up somewhere for no draw or reason. What was the original point of living in cities? You need some mass to serve the retail..and retail to serve the mass. Which comes first? Chicken or egg?

 

This is the eternal question.

 

So, if 25,000 is the magic number, why aren't we seeing more apartment/condo projects coming online? I guess it'd be because of financing mostly now, huh?

Well the original point of cities is efficiency. Lots of people want to be close to a resource, like port, and that means increased density. People want to minimize commute time, one way is through living near work. Or building your warehouse and factory at the intersection of transit modes.

 

Anyway thats some reasons to get together. Its not really chicken and egg, its more like a snowball that starts small and grows. At some point the snowball is big enough that we replace surface parking lots with all of the little interesting shops mentioned above. Critical mass implies a bifurcation point, where the realities just before and just after that point are markedly different. I don't really see that happening, anywhere.

OK, maybe I can spell this out.  In this thread we are talking about increasing the downtown population so that it becomes a bona fide residential option for people.  When speaking about a retail mix is on topic as long as it is in context of the broader converstaion of the unique challenges and opportunities of downtown Cleveland and its ability to attract new residents.

 

-Talk of Grocery stores in Girard and Niles  OFF TOPIC

-Which suburbs have malls OFF TOPIC

-The value of lifestyle centers OFF TOPIC

-Why downtown malls failed 10 years ago  OFF TOPIC

 

They are all fine topics of conversation, but perhaps they they are tangents to this converstaion that bring this and several other threads off topic.  Use the search button to find an appropriate thread.  If no thread exists perhaps you can start a thread with these titles

-Rural grocery stores

-Suburban mall discussion

-I <3 Legacy Village

-The rise and fall of Tower City

 

punch, I respectfully disagree, while admitting that I'm not skilled in the art of topic identification.  If one believes, based on evidence, that critical mass cannot be reached without addressing retail, that would seem to be entirely on topic.  There wouldn't be a critical mass thread if we all knew for certain how to get there, so I don't see the value in dismissing any reasonable theory at this point. 

 

How can one examine the situation in Cleveland without comparing it to other cities?  That's generally how theories are tested, how science is done.  You're telling me we have to discuss it some other way?  What way?  Making up numbers?  Look at the first page.  Nobody knows where these numbers come from, other than Ned Hill.  Call it the "Ned Hill's Number" thread... then I'm off topic.  Actually, if I'm engaging Hill's theory by disagreeing with it, please explain to me how that's off topic.

 

Instead you're telling me I can't cite evidence.  Everything you claim is off-topic is either direct evidence for a point I'm making about the thread topic, or is part of the complex issue the thread topic represents.  I think the other people besides me who also discussed these issues here, and in other threads about downtown development, also see at least some connection between parts of downtown and developing downtown.  The connection between suburban competitors to downtown and developing downtown.  The connection between how development policies have worked in other cities and how they might work in our downtown.  Are you claiming none of these things belong in a discussion of building the population downtown?  What does?

 

Why must Cleveland be examined only in a vaccuum, only in a hypothetical world where no other ideas, no other counterexamples exist?  The only ideas we can discuss here must come from CSU or Cleveland City Hall?  Anything else is off-topic?  That's what off-topic means?  Are you serious? 

 

We're discussing how to get to critical mass, and you don't like my theory, so it's off topic?  You're trying to dismiss my theory without addressing it, by claiming that discussing a magic number nobody can specify or justify is the only on-topic way to discuss downtown growth.  Come on.  All you're really saying is that there is one acceptable theory and all others are stupid.

 

When I first asked the question this morning, you snarkily told me my questions were answered on the first page.  Show me where.  I read it 3 times.  All I see are assertions about a theory, assertions about magic numbers, and no explanation of how they're derived or how the theory applies to any real world city.

OK, maybe I can spell this out.  In this thread we are talking about increasing the downtown population so that it becomes a bona fide residential option for people.  When speaking about a retail mix is on topic as long as it is in context of the broader converstaion of the unique challenges and opportunities of downtown Cleveland and its ability to attract new residents.

 

-Talk of Grocery stores in Girard and Niles  OFF TOPIC

-Which suburbs have malls OFF TOPIC

-The value of lifestyle centers OFF TOPIC

-Why downtown malls failed 10 years ago  OFF TOPIC

 

They are all fine topics of conversation, but perhaps they they are tangents to this converstaion that bring this and several other threads off topic.  Use the search button to find an appropriate thread.  If no thread exists perhaps you can start a thread with these titles

-Rural grocery stores

-Suburban mall discussion

-I <3 Legacy Village

-The rise and fall of Tower City

 

 

I disagree. How many threads do we have to have before we realize many of these are tie in subjects? These subjects are not off topic and are related. In order to draw the mass back downtown, it is important to understand some of the reasons it dissolved in the first place--and some of these reasons are directly related to the leaching of people and businesses over the years from the core to the outlying areas--and some of that has to do with how we have allowed developers to dictate planning and land use policies that have resulted in sucking away the critical mass. Letting the developers dictate land use policy/planning is like letting loggers dictate forest management. So, my point is that these subjects are intertwined and about cause and effect...and if we cannot understand the history of this outmigration and some of the causes, we will be condemned to keep repeating it again and again. That is why those are tie in subjects.

 

I agree with 327.

Carrying on. 

Doc Broc, thanks for the info.  If true, that means the downtown population nearly doubled in 3 years

OK, maybe I can spell this out.  In this thread we are talking about increasing the downtown population so that it becomes a bona fide residential option for people.  When speaking about a retail mix is on topic as long as it is in context of the broader converstaion of the unique challenges and opportunities of downtown Cleveland and its ability to attract new residents.

 

-Talk of Grocery stores in Girard and Niles  OFF TOPIC

-Which suburbs have malls OFF TOPIC

-The value of lifestyle centers OFF TOPIC

-Why downtown malls failed 10 years ago  OFF TOPIC

 

They are all fine topics of conversation, but perhaps they they are tangents to this converstaion that bring this and several other threads off topic.  Use the search button to find an appropriate thread.  If no thread exists perhaps you can start a thread with these titles

-Rural grocery stores

-Suburban mall discussion

-I <3 Legacy Village

-The rise and fall of Tower City

 

 

I disagree.. How many threads do we have to have before we realize many of these are tie in subjects. These subjects are not off topic and are related. In order to draw the mass back downtown, it is important to understand some of the reasons it dissolved in the first place--and some of these reasons are directly related to the leaching of people and businesses over the years from the core to the outlying areas--and some of that has to do with how we have allowed developers to dictate planning and land use policies that have resulted in sucking away the critical mass. Letting the developers dictate land use policy/planning is like letting loggers dictate forest management. So, my point is that these subjects are intertwined and about cause and effect...and if we cannot understand the history of this outmigration and some of the causes, we will be condemned to keep repeating it again and again.

 

With all due respect, you might disagree, but the MODS/ADMINS, have the final say how the forum is organized as MayDay pointed out in the Cleveland: Lakefront Development News thread.

 

I don't want to curb your posting, as I think your heart is in the right place, but I wouldn't test MayDay.  As he has often said, "posting here (on UO) isn't a right, it's a privilege".

This forum is seriously getting exhausting. I'm so tired.

OK, maybe I can spell this out.  In this thread we are talking about increasing the downtown population so that it becomes a bona fide residential option for people.  When speaking about a retail mix is on topic as long as it is in context of the broader converstaion of the unique challenges and opportunities of downtown Cleveland and its ability to attract new residents.

 

-Talk of Grocery stores in Girard and Niles  OFF TOPIC

-Which suburbs have malls OFF TOPIC

-The value of lifestyle centers OFF TOPIC

-Why downtown malls failed 10 years ago  OFF TOPIC

 

They are all fine topics of conversation, but perhaps they they are tangents to this converstaion that bring this and several other threads off topic.  Use the search button to find an appropriate thread.  If no thread exists perhaps you can start a thread with these titles

-Rural grocery stores

-Suburban mall discussion

-I <3 Legacy Village

-The rise and fall of Tower City

 

 

I disagree.. How many threads do we have to have before we realize many of these are tie in subjects. These subjects are not off topic and are related. In order to draw the mass back downtown, it is important to understand some of the reasons it dissolved in the first place--and some of these reasons are directly related to the leaching of people and businesses over the years from the core to the outlying areas--and some of that has to do with how we have allowed developers to dictate planning and land use policies that have resulted in sucking away the critical mass. Letting the developers dictate land use policy/planning is like letting loggers dictate forest management. So, my point is that these subjects are intertwined and about cause and effect...and if we cannot understand the history of this outmigration and some of the causes, we will be condemned to keep repeating it again and again.

 

With all due respect, you might disagree, but the MODS/ADMINS, have the final say how the forum is organized as MayDay pointed out in the Cleveland: Lakefront Development News thread.

 

I don't want to curb your posting, as I think your heart is in the right place, but I wouldn't test MayDay.  As he has often said, "posting here (on UO) isn't a right, it's a privilege".

 

Yes, but these subjects are not off topic. Is the thread about critical mass? Drawing critical mass? If not, I must be mistaken by the title. Just by you posting what you did dragged this way more off topic than anything previously posted. For goodness sakes... How can an exchange of ideas get going and a good discussion that can find solutions... if someone is always there hitting the shock collar saying 'bleeep---off topic!' 

 

I agree, there are many times things like this go to the extreme when people start getting personal and/or too political, but I am not sold on why, what either I, or 327 posted was so off topic.

 

Someone said

 

"In this thread we are talking about increasing the downtown population so that it becomes a bona fide residential option for people."

 

Yes, understanding what drained it in the past can help refuel it in the future--and I hinted ad those push and pull factors, mentioned what could help some smaller business locate there to help draw more people (residents), or vice versa...so we can strive to not repeat the past process that drained both.

 

But that is off topic?

 

 

Look, if a MOD says I'm off topic I must yield to them.  I know that.  But when we're spending this much time and effort determining what's off topic and what goes where-- and attacking each other personally-- it takes away from any meaningful discussion.  Once again, I'm jumped without basis and without explanation.  I go to the trouble to explain why I honestly thought I was on topic here (this is not a development or news thread), and all I get is more trouble. 

 

This all started when I asked, without taking a stand, for someone to explain the critical mass theory because I don't get it.  That's the gosh dang title of the thread.  That was met with... something, but not something responsive to my fully on-topic question.  I thought the fault mine, in not asking a precise enough question about the thread topic, so I expanded on my misgivings regarding the theory discussed on the first page of this thread, which is where I had been referred.

 

But of course, 327 is the bad guy.  It's easier that way.  Whatever.  I really would like to discuss the thread topic with anyone who's interested.

Siiigggghhhh... Jpop is right.  This is exhausting.  EC, I apologize you are fairly new and being pulled into 327's specialty.  Turning everything he possibly can into the downtown Cleveland retail rant.

 

Is this thread intertwined with retail.  yup.  But 327 has beat this horse to death so badly that someone may file charges for animal cruelty.  Can you get many daily items in downtown?  yes.  Is it by any means a viable "shopping" area? no.  Would a better retail selection help lure more downtown residents?  Absolutely.  Do we all want to see an improved retail scene downtown? Yes. But you see if anyone brings up any realities of the situation unique to Cleveland?  They are pessimists.  It doesn't matter if it's lenders who try to finance such things, or commercial real estate agents who have tried to land new tenants... doesn't matter.  Apparently no one "gets it".  If Frank Jackson just waved a magic subsidy wand, there would be a Macy's sprouting up out of thin air, and it would solve all the worlds problems.  And no matter what anyone says on the subject... blah, blah, blah... subsidy.  Blah, blah, blah, such and such city has downtown retail.  Nor apparently should the biggest financing standstill in a generation make a difference, even though without it there very likely would have been an enormous retail centric development in the center of town.  If people want to hate Mike White for not seeing the changing financial landscape of the retail world and offering a subsidy when we had department stores and it would have made a difference... fine.  If people want to hate FCE for running their mall into the ground and never hiring a mall manager... fine.  But it doesn't change where we are now.  And the challenges we face in getting things on line.  If people don't want to acknowledge the sever over saturation of retail in our market, and think that's just pessimism talking... fine.  But it doesn't change the fact that Gap doesn't think that most people are going to pass the other 50 gaps on the way downtown, and therefore aren't too interested. 

 

  So in summation... do we know that we'd all be better with more downtown retail? YES.  Everyone knows this.  Everyone gets this.  Is it being worked on by both people inside AND outside of the current administration.  YES.  As I have mentioned before in MANY threads, the Euclid Avenue retail study is in fact real.  I would even say it's a priority.  There are people currently negotiating a contract with a group to implement.  Hopefully we will see the fruits of that in the not to terribly distant future.  Now for THE LOVE OF GOD, can we PLEASE move past this, because this is the same old...

 

BROKEN RECORD!!!!!!

[cringes]

 

So... am I actually off topic, or do you disagree enough with what I have to say that you want me to stop saying it?  Either way, I'll do what you ask.  But please tell me-- and stop insulting me.  All you did in that post is attack me personally and make fun of my idea in a very unprofessional manner.  I really wish we could discuss the thread topic instead of having everyone hear (yet again) what you think of me.

 

[cringes]

As I said, the topics are intwined.  It's simply that you say the same thing over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over.  And every time you do it, threads devolve into this.  Trust me, everyone knows how you feel on the subject.

How much more crystal clear could punch's post have been?!? Stop playing the victim, it's tiresome and totally disingenuous. Let's see - other forumers manage to contribute and participate, and most of the time - can realize when something is a tangent (a completely unrelated one at that), and when they don't - they usually respond to a reprimand and abide by the rules. You however, are constantly being reprimanded and you don't change your ways. 3,000+ members, yet you seem to be getting a lot of flak... yeeeah, the Admins and Mods give you grief because we don't have better things to do with our time :roll:

 

The onus is not on UrbanOhio to change just so you can post material that (as has been said in the past and I think it would it be a perfect fit) truly belongs in a blog. You should consider that - start a blog about downtown retail, critical mass, etc. - you're obviously passionate about it and knowledgeable.

Siiigggghhhh... Jpop is right.  This is exhausting.  EC, I apologize you are fairly new and being pulled into 327's specialty.  Turning everything he possibly can into the downtown Cleveland retail rant.

 

Is this thread intertwined with retail.  yup.  But 327 has beat this horse to death so badly that someone may file charges for animal cruelty.  Can you get many daily items in downtown?  yes.  Is it by any means a viable "shopping" area? no.  Would a better retail selection help lure more downtown residents?  Absolutely.  Do we all want to see an improved retail scene downtown? Yes. But you see if anyone brings up any realities of the situation unique to Cleveland?  They are pessimists.  It doesn't matter if it's lenders who try to finance such things, or commercial real estate agents who have tried to land new tenants... doesn't matter.  Apparently no one "gets it".  If Frank Jackson just waved a magic subsidy wand, there would be a Macy's sprouting up out of thin air, and it would solve all the worlds problems.  And no matter what anyone says on the subject... blah, blah, blah... subsidy.  Blah, blah, blah, such and such city has downtown retail.  Nor apparently should the biggest financing standstill in a generation make a difference, even though without it there very likely would have been an enormous retail centric development in the center of town.  If people want to hate Mike White for not seeing the changing financial landscape of the retail world and offering a subsidy when we had department stores and it would have made a difference... fine.  If people want to hate FCE for running their mall into the ground and never hiring a mall manager... fine.  But it doesn't change where we are now.  And the challenges we face in getting things on line.  If people don't want to acknowledge the sever over saturation of retail in our market, and think that's just pessimism talking... fine.  But it doesn't change the fact that Gap doesn't think that most people are going to pass the other 50 gaps on the way downtown, and therefore aren't too interested. 

 

  So in summation... do we know that we'd all be better with more downtown retail? YES.  Everyone knows this.  Everyone gets this.  Is it being worked on by both people inside AND outside of the current administration.  YES.  As I have mentioned before in MANY threads, the Euclid Avenue retail study is in fact real.  I would even say it's a priority.  There are people currently negotiating a contract with a group to implement.  Hopefully we will see the fruits of that in the not to terribly distant future.  Now for THE LOVE OF GOD, can we PLEASE move past this, because this is the same old...

 

BROKEN RECORD!!!!!!

 

I totally understand everything here word for word, but my whole idea was about not just promoting 'retail' to attract new visitors/residences or vice versa... It was about 'what KIND of retail' to attract (to help draw more residents/visitors) amidst this over-saturated chain gang retail market--and as a small business operator of the past, I just said it would be nice to, in addition to what is going on with the retail plan, that downtown also become a concentrated mecca for independent/local unique businesses where they can all concentrate their powers of presence and be a force again. And, offer a real definition to downtown--rather than people having to drive all over creation to find such places they would prefer supporting in contrast to big chains and the clone zones. I mentioned that besides the idea of giving the big guys a subsidy, maybe we should give the smaller talents a chance for once as was how a city grew in the first place, from the roots.

 

I just indicated it would blend nicely with the DTA retail plan. In other words, let some local talents have the chance to rise again. If we are going to be different to attracting mass, we cannot ignore the importance being different, which includes giving opportunity for smaller locally owned venues. The question was posed in how to obtain such smaller enterprises, and as a small business owner, I offered my idea about incentives.

 

I will say nothing more on this topic.

Siiigggghhhh... Jpop is right.  This is exhausting.  EC, I apologize you are fairly new and being pulled into 327's specialty.  Turning everything he possibly can into the downtown Cleveland retail rant.

 

Is this thread intertwined with retail.  yup.  But 327 has beat this horse to death so badly that someone may file charges for animal cruelty.  Can you get many daily items in downtown?  yes.  Is it by any means a viable "shopping" area? no.  Would a better retail selection help lure more downtown residents?  Absolutely.  Do we all want to see an improved retail scene downtown? Yes. But you see if anyone brings up any realities of the situation unique to Cleveland?  They are pessimists.  It doesn't matter if it's lenders who try to finance such things, or commercial real estate agents who have tried to land new tenants... doesn't matter.  Apparently no one "gets it".  If Frank Jackson just waved a magic subsidy wand, there would be a Macy's sprouting up out of thin air, and it would solve all the worlds problems.  And no matter what anyone says on the subject... blah, blah, blah... subsidy.  Blah, blah, blah, such and such city has downtown retail.  Nor apparently should the biggest financing standstill in a generation make a difference, even though without it there very likely would have been an enormous retail centric development in the center of town.  If people want to hate Mike White for not seeing the changing financial landscape of the retail world and offering a subsidy when we had department stores and it would have made a difference... fine.  If people want to hate FCE for running their mall into the ground and never hiring a mall manager... fine.  But it doesn't change where we are now.  And the challenges we face in getting things on line.  If people don't want to acknowledge the sever over saturation of retail in our market, and think that's just pessimism talking... fine.  But it doesn't change the fact that Gap doesn't think that most people are going to pass the other 50 gaps on the way downtown, and therefore aren't too interested. 

 

  So in summation... do we know that we'd all be better with more downtown retail? YES.  Everyone knows this.  Everyone gets this.  Is it being worked on by both people inside AND outside of the current administration.  YES.  As I have mentioned before in MANY threads, the Euclid Avenue retail study is in fact real.  I would even say it's a priority.  There are people currently negotiating a contract with a group to implement.  Hopefully we will see the fruits of that in the not to terribly distant future.  Now for THE LOVE OF GOD, can we PLEASE move past this, because this is the same old...

 

BROKEN RECORD!!!!!!

 

I totally understand everything here word for word, but my whole idea was about not just promoting 'retail' to attract new visitors/residences or vice versa... It was about 'what KIND of retail' to attract (to help draw more residents/visitors) amidst this over-saturated chain gang retail market--and as a small business operator of the past, I just said it would be nice to, in addition to what is going on with the retail plan, that downtown also become a concentrated mecca for independent/local unique businesses where they can all concentrate their powers of presence and be a force again. And, offer a real definition to downtown--rather than people having to drive all over creation to find such places. I mentioned that besides the idea of giving the big guys a subsidy, maybe we should give the smaller talents a chance for once as was how a city grew in the first place, from the roots.

 

I just indicated it would blend nicely with the DTA retail plan. In other words, let some local talents have the chance to rise again. If we are going to be different to attracting mass, we cannot ignore the importance being different, which includes giving opportunity for smaller locally owned venues. The question was posed in how to obtain such smaller enterprises, and as a small business owner, I offered my idea about incentives.

 

I will say nothing more on this topic.

 

Question?  Can this thread be reopened? http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,17818.0.html

 

This way the posts that go into greater detail about retail can be moved there and discussion can continue?

 

 

Answer - I don't know. Look at why it was locked in the first place (granted some off-topic posts were deleted - imagine that! :roll: )

This is one of the threads I bring back from time to time.  In 2005I hoped that we might just get to 15,000 people downtown by 2015, which seemed like wishful thinking.

Back in 2005, there was no E. 4th (not really), no avenue district, most of the developments were isolated from each other.

Its nice to review how far we have come in a short time, and it gives us some hope for the next few years.

 

Now, saying that I would like to direct this discussion towards a review of how recent developments and new residents have added to a cohesive, lively 24/7 downtown.

 

And in the future, what is needed to help continue this growth.  Retail is part of this, but lets keep that discussion focused on downtown Cleveland today and going into the future.

This may have been mentioned earlier, sorry if I missed it.  Is there any type of downtown census?  If so, has anyone ever agreed on boundaries even?

 

This thread is pretty funny.  First it's off topic with retail then it's off topic with why it's off topic!  Where is the urban ohio thread hachet?

i got this off wiki, but it references brookings:

 

"Cleveland's downtown population grew from 7,261 in 1990 to 9,599 as of the 2000 Census, and in 2005 was rated by the Brookings Institution as one of America's "Emerging Downtowns", due to its 32.2% growth rate over this period."

 

i dk of anything more recent -- maybe someone else does?,

 

If one believes, based on evidence, that critical mass cannot be reached without addressing retail, that would seem to be entirely on topic.

 

I always thought it was the other way around.  Certain retail options will not come until a certain levels of critical mass are achieved.  That is the point.  You don't just "address" retail.  You can't force large grocers or other shops to open up if there isn't the population to support it.  We simply need to have the area tick up slowly on it's own by sheer force of...whatever it is that is currently causing people to move downtown.  Because we know it can't possibly be the retail scene.  Proximity to work, proximity of nightlife, the ambiance of urban living, prestige, whatever.  Downtown living has certain things going for it that attract people not brainwashed by anti-urban sentiment.  However, for every person that decides to live downtown, how many are there that say, "Well, I WOULD live downtown, but there's only one grocery store and the pharmacy closes at 8."?    Given that you can't force stores to open where they're not profitable, you need to reach the mass of population to where those business activities become profitable, at which point all those folks scared off by the lack of basic retail amenities start taking second and third looks at downtown when making the Very Important Decision of where to live.

I think one problem is that we approach the issue like it's a chicken or egg situation when it's not. If you look at any downtown or urban neighborhood both were built at the same time.

On a macro level, yes.  But fundamentally, the decision whether or not to live downtown is based on many factors.  Amenities, cost, distance to work, safety, personal preference. 

 

Those are not factors for retail.  A person, a company's management, a group of investors, will open a store in an area if and only if they believe they can make money at that location.  Period.    They won't say "How cool would it be to open a store downtown?" and decide to do it despite all their figures showing that they'll go broke in 18 months.  Well, they might, but you certainly can't count on that happening. 

 

Maybe in good times, you'll get more people taking a chance on the "if you build it they will come" strategy.  It's definitely not likely to happen now, so focus on building the population to where it becomes a smart move to add retail, not one based on hopes and wishful thinking.

 

 

On a macro level, yes. But fundamentally, the decision whether or not to live downtown is based on many factors. Amenities, cost, distance to work, safety, personal preference.

 

Those are not factors for retail. A person, a company's management, a group of investors, will open a store in an area if and only if they believe they can make money at that location. Period. They won't say "How cool would it be to open a store downtown?" and decide to do it despite all their figures showing that they'll go broke in 18 months.   Well, they might, but you certainly can't count on that happening.

 

Maybe in good times, you'll get more people taking a chance on the "if you build it they will come" strategy. It's definitely not likely to happen now, so focus on building the population to where it becomes a smart move to add retail, not one based on hopes and wishful thinking.

 

I totally agree.

On a macro level, yes.  But fundamentally, the decision whether or not to live downtown is based on many factors.  Amenities, cost, distance to work, safety, personal preference. 

 

Those are not factors for retail.  A person, a company's management, a group of investors, will open a store in an area if and only if they believe they can make money at that location.  Period.    They won't say "How cool would it be to open a store downtown?" and decide to do it despite all their figures showing that they'll go broke in 18 months.  Well, they might, but you certainly can't count on that happening. 

 

Maybe in good times, you'll get more people taking a chance on the "if you build it they will come" strategy.  It's definitely not likely to happen now, so focus on building the population to where it becomes a smart move to add retail, not one based on hopes and wishful thinking.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Good points. I was never a fan of the 'build it and they will come' strategy, overall. Indeed, many factors as you indicated, besides 'retail' alone would influence one's decision to live any given place. That's a given. But, in a regional scene mostly dominated by typical sprawl, and in the habit (lifestyle) of living in such, one of downtown's biggest strengths in being a place to chose to live.......its biggest selling point would be a lot of the unique aspects relating to the arts, history, culture, convenience, cost of living, the offering of a 'car-light' lifestyle, the big blue lake, and what it can offer those who are looking for something different. At least, that is what I feel a big part of the target market crowd could be. Even if someone moved here, and yet their job would be in the burbs---downtown, with all the other appealing characteristics could even be a choice for a place to live. That, instead of the other way around. (work downtown, live in burbs)

 

Wondering...Is there a poll on UO that asks people who live/and or recently moved directly in, or very near downtown, such as Tremont, etc... Why they chose to do so? I'd be curious to see their answers.

On a macro level, yes.  But fundamentally, the decision whether or not to live downtown is based on many factors.  Amenities, cost, distance to work, safety, personal preference. 

 

Those are not factors for retail.  A person, a company's management, a group of investors, will open a store in an area if and only if they believe they can make money at that location.  Period.    They won't say "How cool would it be to open a store downtown?" and decide to do it despite all their figures showing that they'll go broke in 18 months.  Well, they might, but you certainly can't count on that happening. 

 

Maybe in good times, you'll get more people taking a chance on the "if you build it they will come" strategy.  It's definitely not likely to happen now, so focus on building the population to where it becomes a smart move to add retail, not one based on hopes and wishful thinking.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Good points. I was never a fan of the 'build it and they will come' strategy, overall. Indeed, many factors as you indicated, besides 'retail' alone would influence one's decision to live any given place. That's a given. But, in a regional scene mostly dominated by typical sprawl, and in the habit (lifestyle) of living in such, one of downtown's biggest strengths in being a place to chose to live.......its biggest selling point would be a lot of the unique aspects relating to the arts, history, culture, convenience, cost of living, the offering of a 'car-light' lifestyle, the big blue lake, and what it can offer those who are looking for something different. At least, that is what I feel a big part of the target market crowd could be. Even if someone moved here, and yet their job would be in the burbs---downtown, with all the other appealing characteristics could even be a choice for a place to live. That, instead of the other way around. (work downtown, live in burbs)

 

Wondering...Is there a poll on UO that asks people who live/and or recently moved directly in, or very near downtown, such as Tremont, etc... Why they chose to do so? I'd be curious to see their answers.

Dont you love the search feature. :wink:  FYI most stuff like this is in the UrbanBar section of the forum.

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,2178.0.html

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,5468.0.html

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,7917.0.html

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,7288.0.html

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,16557.0.html