July 24, 200915 yr I've seen that video footage...still no mention of anything in regards to the 4th amendment, nor do I think based on what he said that's what he's implying. He is not going to come right out and say that Gates' constitutional rights were violated. You'd probably be twice as outraged as you are now if he had. But when you add up his implications of unreasonableness, lack of necessity for the arrest and "his own home", in addition to Obama's background as a constitutional law professor, I think it is quite clear what he is getting at without explicitly saying "4th Amendment". Like I said, read up on the judicial precedent and this will become clear.
July 24, 200915 yr ^I'm pretty sure search and seizure only refers to evidence. A police officer with reasonable suspicion can arrest you anytime, anywhere within jurisdiction. That's absolutely correct. That's absolutely incorrect. Please cite your authority. I already did above. The authority you cited did not apply to the situation. Granted, this is Ohio and not Massachusets law, but I imagine they are similar: ORC 2917.11 Disorderly Conduct (A) No person shall recklessly cause inconvenience, annoyance, or alarm to another by doing any of the following: (1) Engaging in fighting, in threatening harm to persons or property, or in violent or turbulent behavior; (2) Making unreasonable noise or an offensively coarse utterance, gesture, or display or communicating unwarranted and grossly abusive language to any person; (3) Insulting, taunting, or challenging another, under circumstances in which that conduct is likely to provoke a violent response;(4) Hindering or preventing the movement of persons on a public street, road, highway, or right-of-way, or to, from, within, or upon public or private property, so as to interfere with the rights of others, and by any act that serves no lawful and reasonable purpose of the offender; (5) Creating a condition that is physically offensive to persons or that presents a risk of physical harm to persons or property, by any act that serves no lawful and reasonable purpose of the offender. ...... (E)(1) Whoever violates this section is guilty of disorderly conduct. (3) Disorderly conduct is a misdemeanor of the fourth degree if any of the following applies: (a)... (b)... © The offense is committed in the presence of any law enforcement officer, firefighter, rescuer, medical person, emergency medical services person, or other authorized person who is engaged in the person’s duties at the scene of a fire, accident, disaster, riot, or emergency of any kind. The officer is at the scene of a reported crime and involved in his duties as an officer. Gates alledgedly is insulting him, challenging him, and getting in the way of the officer's investigation. Whether you believe that or not is up to you. The fact remains, if the story went as the officer is telling it, he is absolutely 100% entitled to arrest him on his property without a warrant. The reasonable suspicion part is not necessarily accurate. But you can be arrested on your porperty if an officer witnesses you commit a crime and has a right to be on your property, which in this case he did.
July 24, 200915 yr "Are you not responding to me because you’re a white officer and I’m a black man?’ ” That's why racism will always be around. Well Willy as a man of color, I too, would have though - and probably said - the exact same thing.
July 24, 200915 yr Exactly (reinforcing my point), that's naturally what a black person with a chip on their shoulders response would be. I know you know their are plenty of those here in DC. (funny it wouldn't have occurred that if there wasn't a response was because they were being a belligerent Ah#$le. Yet I never said any such thing when I was called a "stupid white boy" by a black cop in DC (which was a typical DC cop at the time).... and we all know who the stupid one there was....
July 24, 200915 yr But there are always two sides to the story. Here is what Gates said happened - I said, This is my house, Im a Harvard professor. I live here, Gates said. He said, Can you prove it? I said, Just a minute. And I turned my back, I walked into the kitchen to get my Harvard ID and my Massachusetts drivers license. He followed me without permission. I gave him the 2 IDs and I demanded to know his name and badge number. He wouldnt say anything. He was just very upset and I said, Why are you not responding to me? Are you not responding to me because youre a white officer and Im a black man? Until the officer had the actual identification in his hand, he would be foolish not to follow the suspect into the kitchen, what if he had a gun? Nowhere in the officers report did he say he provided a valid ID. A school ID would not really confirm his residence in most cases. My school ID's don't say where I live. He was trying to be difficult.
July 24, 200915 yr Exactly (reinforcing my point), that's naturally what a black person with a chip on their shoulders response would be. I know you know their are plenty of those here in DC. Yet I never said any such thing when I was called a "stupid white boy" by a black cop in DC (which was a typical DC cop at the time).... and we all know who the stupid one there was.... Maybe there is a reason they have a chip on their shoulders? Is it possible they are sized up and stereotyped, for no reason other than the color of their skin?? I've been stereotyped to death. I honestly do think many white men don't have a real understand of what that is like. I could give you hundreds of personal examples.
July 24, 200915 yr MTS, I'm a white man in DC (in the chocolate city, as you yourself would call it) , I think I get it. But my previous sympathies have been diminished by that very chip. I could give you hundreds of examples. My black friends here from Cleveland do not play into that, and totally think they (the people with the chips and the ones that use the race card every chance they get) are messing things up for themselves and others, and they are personally embarrassed by it. There's a point that you have to look past that chip, because it really is bogging any sort of advancement down in my mind. (just like I have to look past my bad experiences here (not every black person everywhere hates white people, or is going to rob you)) Ways I didn't think before I moved here. Thus the circle of racism......
July 24, 200915 yr ^I'm pretty sure search and seizure only refers to evidence. A police officer with reasonable suspicion can arrest you anytime, anywhere within jurisdiction. That's absolutely correct. That's absolutely incorrect. Please cite your authority. I already did above. The authority you cited did not apply to the situation. Granted, this is Ohio and not Massachusets law, but I imagine they are similar: ORC 2917.11 Disorderly Conduct Let me try to clear a few things up that I believe have led to your confusion. The question of whether Gates was guilty of "disorderly conduct" is an issue completely separate from whether "a police officer with reasonable suspicion can arrest you anytime, anywhere within jurisdiction." The first, very specific, question seems to have been resolved in favor of the Gates by the prosecutor.... at least on the available evidence. The second, much more general, issue is wholly separate and any such notion has been repeatedly rejected by the U.S. Supreme Court. Police officers must obtain a warrant to arrest an individual in his/her own home absent one of the well-deliniated exceptions.
July 24, 200915 yr No, a warrant or permission of the resident is needed for an officer to enter a residence and no unlawful acitivity was observed. Much more accurate. So then you would agree that a police officer with reasonable suspicion canNOT arrest you anytime, ANYWHERE within jurisdiction withOUT a warrant. I will say that even if unlawful activity is observed by the officer, he/she cannot enter your own home to arrest you without a warrant unless in "hot pursuit" or other "exigent circumstances" exist. However, that wasn't the case here. The officers were under impression that a crime was in progress. The nature of a breaking and entering crime necessitates the police to enter a house. Therefore, their entry into the house was lawful. Once inside, Gates refused to be cooperative and acted disorderly. At this point the police had gained lawful entry and had reason to place Gates under arrest. But the arrest happened on his porch (still Gates' "curtilage") when the officer admitted the house was secure and he was in the process of leaving. No further cooperation was needed. Gates was just being rude (if you believe the officer). At that point, it's real simple. The officer should have left, went straight to the magistrate and obtained a warrant. If the warrant was issued, then the officer could have went back to Gates' home, announced his presence and kicked in the door if necessary.
July 24, 200915 yr Oh and MTS, one of the times that I was called a "stupid white boy" by a black DC cop was after I was robbed by a group of black guys (who of course brandished guns and yelled racial slurs), because I decided not to play into the racial profiling thing and cross the street. And, I know you would just call this street smarts, as will I from now on. Oh and I'm in a good neighborhood here...??
July 24, 200915 yr The plot thickens. Apparently the cop taught a racial profiling class at the polic academy. Cambridge police Sgt. James Crowley, the cop at the center of a firestorm over the arrest of Harvard professor Henry Louis Gates Jr., has taught a racial profiling class at the Lowell Police Academy for five years. To see more, click link Link
July 24, 200915 yr I wonder if the cop is SO by the book, that once the Prof. technically committed the crime he arrested him, whereas others would have just said something under thier breath, and bitched about him later
July 24, 200915 yr Here's a great take on this issue by a CNN ireporter. It's a must watch. Her speaking style is corny, but her analysis of the issues is spot-on. http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-303137
July 24, 200915 yr Here's a great take on this issue by a CNN ireporter. It's a must watch. Her speaking style is corny, but her analysis of the issues is spot-on. http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-303137 I agree with most of what she said. To be clear, I have no problem with the fact that the cop showed up at the house. I have no problem with the cop insisting upon proof that Gates was in fact lawfully in the house. I only question the propriety of the arrest once the cop had proof that no break-in had occured. He had no reason to be on the property from that point on and nothing Gates said would have elicited a violent response from a reasonable person. He should have accepted that his career of choice requires extremely thick skin and walked away. All that said, I do NOT believe that race played a role in the arrest. One alternative I could have accepted given the circumstances would have been the issuance of a summons for Gates to appear in court and answer to charges of disorderly conduct. There was no need for handcuffs and taking him into custody IMHO.
July 24, 200915 yr For the sake of argument, let's try to put aside the whole race thing for a second, and let's assume that the police report is wholly accurate. It was established that, while inside, the police officers were able to determine that Gates was in fact in his own home. So, let's say that he was yelling the entire time or whatever. Doesn't matter. He doesn't look armed or dangerous (and the police report did not describe him as being a danger to himself or others). Why didn't the police just leave (even while Gates was yelling)? Did they think that he would continue yelling and freaking out on the street, thereby disturbing his neighbors after they left? Police officers and other people whose job it is to deal with the public get trained in nonviolent crisis intervention. You have to learn how to defuse situations. One of the main tenets of this (and I've been trained in this myself) is that when it is clear that your presence is exacerbating a situation and that there is no imminent harm to persons or property, You Leave. So, why didn't they just get in their cars and leave? (EDIT: Upon preview, I see that Hts44121 beat me to this. Dang. Anyway, I do think that race may have played a role, but I don't think that we'll ever really know.) (Unrelated, in response to the original comment to this thread, I'm half-Mexican, half-Vietnamese. I'm not going to share the extremely inappropriate term my brother and I use to describe our ethnic mix.)
July 24, 200915 yr It was established that, while inside, the police officers were able to determine that Gates was in fact in his own home. I've seen nothing that confirms this. The only thing he confirmed was that he was a Harvard employee, and the refusal to give a legitimate ID would be reason enough to arrest him.
July 24, 200915 yr I don't agree with the idea that police officers should just walk away from people who are challenging them. There job isn't to back down to belligerents. There job is to keep order, even with overprivileged professors.
July 24, 200915 yr It was established that, while inside, the police officers were able to determine that Gates was in fact in his own home. I've seen nothing that confirms this. The only thing he confirmed was that he was a Harvard employee, and the refusal to give a legitimate ID would be reason enough to arrest him. From Sgt. Crowley's own report: "With the Harvard University identification in hand, I radioed my findings to ECC on channel two and prepared to leave..." followed by "I told Gates that I was leaving his residence..."
July 24, 200915 yr I wonder if the cop is SO by the book, that once the Prof. technically committed the crime he arrested him, whereas others would have just said something under thier breath, and bitched about him later There's a cop posting at another board I post at, and he says that this was a borderline disorderly conduct arrest. I do think, based on that bacikgrounder I linked to from the Boston Herald, that its unlikley race was a factor (on Crowleys part).
July 24, 200915 yr We could do that, if our President hadn't stuck his big nose into it! He did more harm than good with his statement. His statement says that whatever white people do, black people have a right to play the race card, which will only inflame the masses.
October 2, 200915 yr I love this kid! :clap: 11-Year Old Tries To Eliminate The N-Word A prolific 11-year old boy is making headlines for his bold speech on one of the most controversial words in American culture. Jonathan E. McCoy is a gifted child that's speaking out against people's use of the N word. He's receiving national praise and acclaim for his youthful words of wisdom, even receiving a Presidential award signed by Barack Obama. more at: http://hiphopwired.com/11273/11-year-old-tries-to-eliminate-the-n-word/
October 16, 200915 yr Well aint this nothing. http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/10/16/louisiana.interracial.marriage/index.html
October 16, 200915 yr Ah the old "It's not because im racist that i wont marry an interracial couple, but it's actually the interracial kids that I'm worried about and fear for. And in the end am trying to protect them. :drunk:
October 17, 200915 yr Ah the old "It's not because im racist that i wont marry an interracial couple, but it's actually the interracial kids that I'm worried about and fear for. And in the end am trying to protect them. :drunk: Protect them from WHAT? Jackasses like him?? Why do "interracial" children need more protection than full blown AA, Asian, White, Latino or Indian children? If he was really concerned why isn't he concerned about white's of different ethnic backgrounds mixing??
October 17, 200915 yr Now now, let's give this turd the benefit of the doubt. After all, he claims he's not racist because he lets blacks use his bathroom.
October 17, 200915 yr Ah the old "It's not because im racist that i wont marry an interracial couple, but it's actually the interracial kids that I'm worried about and fear for. And in the end am trying to protect them. :drunk: Protect them from WHAT? Jackasses like him?? Why do "interracial" children need more protection than full blown AA, Asian, White, Latino or Indian children? If he was really concerned why isn't he concerned about white's of different ethnic backgrounds mixing?? Sure, this is perfectly rational, because what has the child of with black and white parents ever accomplished? Hmmm...can't think of anyone in particular...nope, nobody comes to mind. I mean, certainly, the problem couldn't be with racist a$$holes, could it? Naw...they're not the problem...
October 17, 200915 yr I think you can disaprove of interracial marriage and still be 'not racist'. It's not his place to decide if interracial marriage is right or wrong though; he should have done his job without discriminating.
October 19, 200915 yr I think you can disapprove of interracial marriage and still be 'not racist'. Can I ask how a person can disapprove of mixing races without viewing the people as a whole one of the races negatively? While he may not view African Americans as less than Whites, he is at least projecting an assumption that the people of the African American society will be intolerant of a person of mixed descent. Projecting that assumption onto the race as a whole is by definition a form of prejudice, and therefore a form of racism.
October 19, 200915 yr What is a "racist?" Is it someone who thinks that certain races are inferior to others, or someone who wants the races to be separate? Would that more accurately be a racial separatist?
November 23, 200915 yr I'm the product of a mixed marriage. My mom was from the South and my dad was a "Damn Yankee"
November 23, 200915 yr I'm the product of a mixed marriage. My mom was from the South and my dad was a "Damn Yankee" lawd.
November 23, 200915 yr I'm the product of a mixed marriage. My mom was from the South and my dad was a "Damn Yankee" Which one? Jack Blades? Tommy Shaw? The Nuge?! Dude, it'd be so cool if you were the Nuge's kid!
November 25, 200915 yr If we have a thread specific to this issue feel free to move it. Latino group sues Ohio, says new vehicle registration rules unfair to non-citizens; state disagrees By Reginald Fields November 24, 2009, 5:58PM COLUMBUS, Ohio - A national Hispanic civil rights group on Tuesday sued Ohio to try to block the state from enforcing a new vehicle registration law that requires proof of United States residency. The Ohio Bureau of Motor Vehicles in October sent letters threatening to cancel more than 47,000 vehicle registrations on Dec. 8 unless the registrants produce an Ohio driver's license, an Ohio identification card or social security number. More at Cleveland.com: http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009/11/latino_group_sues_ohio_says_ne.html
November 25, 200915 yr Oh for crying out loud. If you not legal, your ass shouldn't be here! How ridiculous!
November 25, 200915 yr Oh for crying out loud. If you not legal, your ass shouldn't be here! How ridiculous! Also, non-citizens are most likely driving without insurance, correct?
November 25, 200915 yr You CAN get a social security number if you're not a citizen, so their argument is moot IMO.
November 25, 200915 yr You CAN get a social security number if you're not a citizen, so their argument is moot IMO. The entire situation is ridiculous. Non legal immigrants fighting for the rights of citizens. If you want the rights of a US citizen, come here via the proper channels and apply for citizenship and become a contributing citizen!
December 10, 200915 yr If find this debate over MTV's "Jersey Shore" pretty interesting. http://tv.yahoo.com/jersey-shore/show/45540/news/tv.tvguide.com/tv.tvguide.com-mtv-exec-bums-me-out-people-are-offended-jersey-shore Remember Dave Chappelle's "mad real world" - http://www.metatube.com/en/videos/8253/Dave-Chapelle-Mad-Real-World/ (link not safe for work or kids) Hysterical yes, but imagine if that concept was turned into a real show. Is there a double standard?
December 10, 200915 yr If find this debate over MTV's "Jersey Shore" pretty interesting. http://tv.yahoo.com/jersey-shore/show/45540/news/tv.tvguide.com/tv.tvguide.com-mtv-exec-bums-me-out-people-are-offended-jersey-shore Remember Dave Chappelle's "mad real world" - http://www.metatube.com/en/videos/8253/Dave-Chapelle-Mad-Real-World/ (link not safe for work or kids) Hysterical yes, but imagine if that concept was turned into a real show. Is there a double standard? Everyone is trippin' on this show. the Italian guys in my office, one from jersey says, "this is exactly what those "Goomba's" are like! You can't make this up" It's a ghetto Italian show, just like the real housewives of NJ! I dont find it a double standard. If shows air, that show black or latins in ways that the majority of black or latins do not act, then why should this show be any different? Or is it ok to show black/latin's in a negative light, but not Italians? If you dont like the show, don't watch.
December 10, 200915 yr I could care less personally. I'm not Italian and probably wouldn't be offended if I was. But I'm looking at it from the opposite angle than you MTS. Guido is a derogatory Italian term, although it is used quit often among young Italians.... somewhat similar to the "n" word among black youths. It doesn't have nowhere near the historical context, but is derogatory nonetheless. Imagine a black reality show where the characters were referred to with the "n" word. Then imagine that they got the most stereotypical hood bangers and ghetto rats to be the characters. This is the same basic concept, just using Italians. But I agree that this crowd is very typical of the Jersey shore and I know from first hand experience. I guess it's the use of the term that throws up a flag for me, because I am pretty sure this would be a bigger deal if say there was a show like I hypothesized above or how about a group of "queens" (pink boas and all) tossing the "f" word around.
December 11, 200915 yr I could care less personally. I'm not Italian and probably wouldn't be offended if I was. But I'm looking at it from the opposite angle than you MTS. Guido is a derogatory Italian term, although it is used quit often among young Italians.... somewhat similar to the "n" word among black youths. It doesn't have nowhere near the historical context, but is derogatory nonetheless. Imagine a black reality show where the characters were referred to with the "n" word. Then imagine that they got the most stereotypical hood bangers and ghetto rats to be the characters. This is the same basic concept, just using Italians. But I agree that this crowd is very typical of the Jersey shore and I know from first hand experience. I guess it's the use of the term that throws up a flag for me, because I am pretty sure this would be a bigger deal if say there was a show like I hypothesized above or how about a group of "queens" (pink boas and all) tossing the "f" word around. there are plenty of black/latin shows where the "n" and "b" word is beeped out. not to mention songs/videos. Also, have you see out tv or logo lately??
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