it won't hurt in the least bit. Unless it means that Stark will sign a huge hotel, it don't see how it would have a huge impact on his ability to get leases signed and secure financing.

On the downside: imagine an empty, decrepit Westlake or Solon, with abandoned, boarded McMansions ...

 

Shucks...

 

I am not a suburban supporter, but remember, there are a lot of jobs in Independence, Solon, Westlake, Mayfield.  Therefore, I could also see alot of people relocating from say Strongsville to Solon b/c that's where they work.  The thought process is great, but we need to rememeber not everyone works dt.  And think of the people that presently live dt and work in the suburbs.  They may flee to the suburbs.

And think of the people that presently live dt and work in the suburbs.  They may flee to the suburbs.

 

I don't have any statistics here, but I'm pretty sure there is not a plethora of people living in downtown apartments and working out in the suburbs.  However, you may be right about people from other parts of the city moving out to the suburbs.  The fact is that there is going to be an increasing tendancy for people to want to live where they work because of the rise in gas prices.  That will mean SOME people leaving the city, but I think that the primary result will be a consolodation of the metro area that will bring many people back to Cleveland and into downtown.  That is the very thing that makes potential projects such as this, FEB, the avenue district, and K&D's proposal for the breuer tower so important.

I actually live downtown and work in the suburbs. There aren't a lot of people who do it, but more than you would expect. I've met people who live downtown and work in mentor, beachwood, westlake etc.

 

To be honest the thought of moving closer to work did cross my mind, but I find the only time I really use my car is when I am driving to work. If I lived in the suburbs I would likely have to drive everywhere.

But, jmc, w/o knowing you, I'd bet you choose the inconvenience because you prefer the 'excitement' and/or other psychological bennies of the urban lifestyle over the duller suburban one -- as, I'm sure, do the others you know who live dt/work in the burbs.  Developers like Zaremba, Price and the Marons understand this, and so does Stark.  I just wish he'd scale it down/break it (Pesht) up, get started, then grow into his dream.

i too am one of those that resides downtown (reserve square) and work out in the burbs (beachwood).  i am actually saving money by doing this b/c I no longer even touch my car on most weekends.  i was going to go the RTA transit route too, but the green line terminates about a mile from my office complex.

i too am one of those that resides downtown (reserve square) and work out in the burbs (beachwood).  i am actually saving money by doing this b/c I no longer even touch my car on most weekends.  i was going to go the RTA transit route too, but the green line terminates about a mile from my office complex.

 

I appreciate that.  You can't get a bus from the end of the Blue Line to your job?

I've heard some rumblings that Stark will present his masterplan to the Planning Commission in May. It is good to hear that he's still moving forward (even if a master plan presentation is still pretty preliminary).

^Maybe Wolstein's advancement -- and, indeed, expansion -- of his FEB plans are putting some positive pressure on Stark whose probably still pissed at losing the big-time biz potential tenants.  Either way, this is good news.

It would be absolutely amazing to see Pesht, FEB, and K&D's plan all moving forward at the same time.  One of my friends from Chicago asked me a couple of days ago what is the tallest building currently planned for Cleveland.  To be honest, I think that Cleveland doesn't need height right now.  We need density, and that's just what these projects are offering.  From the look of the massings we've seen in the past, Stark is trying really hard to bring a lot of density to the warehouse district.  I can't wait to see what Cleveland looks like in five years. 

In 5 years, downtown population will be approaching 50,000...

In 5 years, downtown population will be approaching 50,000...

 

Huh? Last I heard it was around 10k. (obviously depending on what boundaries you use)

It would be absolutely amazing to see Pesht, FEB, and K&D's plan all moving forward at the same time.  One of my friends from Chicago asked me a couple of days ago what is the tallest building currently planned for Cleveland.  To be honest, I think that Cleveland doesn't need height right now.  We need density, and that's just what these projects are offering.  From the look of the massings we've seen in the past, Stark is trying really hard to bring a lot of density to the warehouse district.  I can't wait to see what Cleveland looks like in five years. 

 

I agree, in this post-911 era, height isn't the be all and end all for downtowns (although towns like Philly are again talking about building the tallest buildings in the world; Philly's new Comcast tower just edged out Key as the tallest btw NYC and Chicago -- big whoop!).  If Stark can pull off a lower rise/high density, mixed-use project linking up our great areas like E.4th Gateway, FEB and, hopefully, a reviving Tower City, we'll building on our rep of being a 'little Chicago' -- an unofficial title, for better or worse, we have already.

 

In 5 years, downtown population will be approaching 50,000...

 

That is overly optomistic.  I think that 25,000 in 7-10 is realistic.  And yes... we are currently at 10,000.

here we go again...

I've heard some rumblings that Stark will present his masterplan to the Planning Commission in May. It is good to hear that he's still moving forward (even if a master plan presentation is still pretty preliminary).

 

I heard the same thing last night. An economic development incentive package for realizing the masterplan is also likely to be announced next month. And Stark has hired a firm that successfully wooed Ernst & Young to a development in Atlanta. Stark is hoping that firm can get E&Y's Cleveland offices to come to his Warehouse District development.

Looks like that battle for EY is not yet decided.  I believe EY wants its own building.  Both Stark and Price can provide that.  Stark can make strong pitches for Baker and Squires due to location.  However, Stark better get rolling fast if he wants to land any of those office tenants.  I don't see reeling in retail as a problem.

I am a little worried to see Ernst and Young being thrown around so much by Stark, K&D, and Wolstein.  Only one of them can land this big tenant, and I'm really hoping that Stark has more than just EY.  I'd hate to see any of these projects die because they can't land EY, but I am really hoping to see the Warehouse District get built out and reach its potential. 

I would love to see E & Y stay where they are at (Huntington Building) and instead see Stark, Price, and Wolstein pick up users from outside Downtown.  And I'd really really love to see a large user from outside the region move into Downtown. 

Any chance the Cuyahoga county workers could move to Pesht?

Has Stark had any experience with office real-estate, or has it all be retail?

Any chance the Cuyahoga county workers could move to Pesht?

 

The original plan was for the County to own its office space. That is what they said. I'm not sure if that was the real reason. I know that they also wanted to consolidate.  If it takes having the County as an office tenant, then I'd say go for it. I just don't see that happening though.

^^ Crocker Park has some office space but I don't think he's ever developed a large office building.

Eton Tower - at six stories and about 90K sq. feet, it's not a huge building but it's not teeny either.

Any chance the Cuyahoga county workers could move to Pesht?

 

The original plan was for the County to own its office space. That is what they said. I'm not sure if that was the real reason. I know that they also wanted to consolidate.  If it takes having the County as an office tenant, then I'd say go for it. I just don't see that happening though.

 

I know that this has for fact been brought up and mulled.  I have no idea if it actually has any legs or would actually happen.

Stark has been very interested in trying to get civic office space components in his various developments. For example when Westlake was seeking a new City Hall, Stark proposed building a new one for them at Crocker Park. But City Council opted against locating within a private real estate development and instead approved building its own City Hall.

 

I wouldn't be surprised at all if Stark has made the same kind of pitch to the county for an office building at Pesht, which probably makes some financial sense for the county. Such a project puts the front-end costs on Stark and a private lender. The county already pays rent at some its multiple facilities. The county also pays high maintenance and HVAC expenses at its older county-owned buildings and pays high fuel/transportation costs for interoffice activity between at its many facilities.

I would love to see E & Y stay where they are at (Huntington Building) and instead see Stark, Price, and Wolstein pick up users from outside Downtown.  And I'd really really love to see a large user from outside the region move into Downtown. 

 

what about centene ? they planned to build 2 new office buildings in downtown st louis but have axed it and may move outside the region. cleveland already has a strong health care industry so i wonder if any developers have talked to them about moving their HQ here.

 

 

> "It would be absolutely amazing to see Pesht, FEB, and K&D's plan all moving forward at the same time."

 

Plus, let's not forget Zaremba's Avenue District; Stonebridge; the MedMart; Euclid Corridor... these are all large downtown projects happening at the same time.  They re-enforce each other in terms of density/traffic/reinvigorating the downtown, and should create the critical mass that triggers the explosion of urban life in Cleveland.  Have there been so many concomitant large projects in Cleveland since its glory days, many decades ago?  This looks like a quiet avalanche... with all these projects moving forward, in three years The New Cleveland will be unrecognizable!

in 5 years downtown population will be 50,000

in 5 years downtown population will be 50,000

 

so 40,000 people in five years? where?

you need to channel your inner field of dreams..if you build it, they will come. oh yes pope they will come

if I had the $$$, I would build 10 of them!

Yes, 40,000 alone from Pesht! :D

downtown population was 10k a few yrs ago........more like 12k-15k now

I read somewhere - I can't remember where, unfortunately - that Cleveland's downtown population includes the 1000+ inmates in the downtown jail by the Justice Ctr. ... could anyone point to a source confirming/denying this?

^but i also thought that the stats didn't include Stonebridge. Is that true?

there is a lot of good information in the cleveland population trends thread :)

I read somewhere - I can't remember where, unfortunately - that Cleveland's downtown population includes the 1000+ inmates in the downtown jail by the Justice Ctr. ... could anyone point to a source confirming/denying this?

 

There are downtown maps that show population by block. I believe the block that has the Justice Center-City/County Jail has 2,000 +/- residents.

Except after a playoff game from most teams in Cleveland... and St. Patricks Day, tthen the population is easily doubled.

Anythging happening at pesht

He's working on this:

 

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,2591.msg274530.html#msg274530

i dont see how they could count the jail population. if you have a home residence somewhere that is where you live, not a temporary/transient place. what about the downtown hotel population? or do they count the people in the hospitals of university circle as well? whats counted and not counted seems like it is always kind of confusing. ditto neighborhood size.

If someone is serving six months or more in jail on a felony, they have no residential address. Their "home" is the county jail during the time the census takers are out counting heads.

 

Please note the downtown block with the highest population density (I'm not counting the area outside the Inner Belt). It's the block bounded by Ontario, St. Clair, West 3rd and Lakeside -- ie: the Justice Center.

 

good stuff thx kjp.

 

ok so the jail rule is under six months and it not counted. six to twelve months (typically the jail max) or up & and it certainly does count. this is quite obvious from the map.

 

now what about the hotels and hospitals and colleges? it's also temporary residence. i suppose the six months rule applies there too, so mostly no? not sure of that via the map. anyone have any insight?

 

^^so does the justice center it effect other stats too, like average income, etc?

 

But on another note, this is from the year 2000, and we've already gained a couple more thousand since then.

I don't know if six months is a rule when it comes to the Census, but it's the minimum term for felony sentences according to the Ohio Revised Code.

My understanding is that the census counts the jail population as downtown population, but the current estimate of 10,000 being bandied about by Downtown boosters is not including the jail population.

Community Core by Bob Stark

 

The Community Core

 

The Community Core is a dense, vertically integrated mixed use neighborhood (or district) with a mission.  Why vertically integrated?  Because stacking residential, office, academic, entertainment, fitness and other uses on top of an aesthetically enriching and socially interactive streetscape of shops, eateries, and other commercial businesses establishes density and the perception of substance.  A lot of people in the same place at the same time doing different things generates energy, and creates a dynamic, constantly changing environment. 

 

The Community Core must be located at the epicenter of the local community (at the proverbial intersection of “Main and Main”), AND it must have immediate access to primary regional connectors, e.g. light rail and/or freeways.  As such, the Community Core serves simultaneously to define the heart and identity of the local community and to define the logical hub of the surrounding region.  As hub of the region, the Community Core connects the various and otherwise disparate assets of a region, natural and cultural, to a common (and shared) point, maximizing efficiencies and strengthening synergies, i.e. actualizing the potentials of regionalization. 

 

The Community Core’s mission is not merely physical or commercial but, most importantly, cultural.  Its agendas are quality of life in the 21st century and how to be competitive in the global economy.  Both agendas are dependent upon a walkable lifestyle that delivers mixed use density interwoven with health and wellness, higher education/research, and the arts.  Such rarified, and “green” environments will attract and keep the best and the brightest, which enables a community to be globally competitive.  This principle applies to and is necessary for urban centers, inner ring suburbs, bedroom community exurbs, and major university campus neighborhoods to position themselves in the global community.  Interestingly, the most desirable lifestyle of every era seems to emanate from a place of gathering characterized by an eclectic mix of commercial, social, scientific and artistic offerings.  In ancient times, the core was found at the city gate where trade routes provided these things. The often employed central piazza flanked by the palace, the parliament, the great museum, the opera house, the public bathhouse, the academy and the cathedral served as the community core for centuries. 

 

Today, the Community Core requires a grid of streets that creates a neighborhood of short walkable city blocks.  At a minimum, three north-south streets should intersect four east-west streets to create a district of six city blocks.  Critical mass is vital to the credibility of context.  There is magic in the grid.  Each city block provides a four-sided opportunity to create a unique pedestrian rhythm of interactivity with a variety of storefronts and experiences.  Here, retail serves a higher purpose, to adorn and to activate the streetscape, to define place, and to create experience.  Here, people are empowered by the sense of community (belonging to something greater).  The experience of the Community Core is one of splendor, honor, and pure enjoyment.   

 

 

 

funny...when reading this and thinking of Crocker Park, I don't see how ANY of this "Community Core" philosophy applies....

Is there a link to this "editorial"?