Regardless, I agree with everything he has to say about it.

 

Now I just wanna see actions follow words. I'm interested to see how much of this rhetoric he follows through on.

Regardless, I agree with everything he has to say about it.

 

Now I just wanna see actions follow words. I'm interested to see how much of this rhetoric he follows through on.

 

I'm with you jpop... Somewhere, above, I believe Stark set a deadline for submitting a proposal to the CPC... We'll see if he follows through... We should have a contest to see which occurs 1st: Bob Stark delivering a concrete proposal with specific building goals, or UO/Pesht thread reaching 100 pages speculating about what Stark will do -- right now I'm betting on UO; we're only 42 pages away!!

 

I don't think that's a problem for this group, especially. :-D

Is the Stark preliminary Master Plan presentation to the Planning Commission still on for May?  Anyone hear anything?

Yes it is, as of yesterday.

The market is shrinking,  E & Y goes to FEB, does Stark sign somebody or is this project scaled down or is it dead?

Dear Diary,

 

The sky is falling.  :roll: :roll:

 

 

There have been no announcements only speculation.

My source tells me this project is shelved for an indeterminate amount of time. I see this project as getting scaled down quite a bit or not happening at all. Stark is having trouble finding big money lenders for this.

Unfortunately, I think that is the direction that things are heading, with the growth in scale/size of the FEB project would come at the expense of the Stark project, which I think was the most pivotal project for downtown.  Yes, the FEB is important for Cleve, but Pesht was the nagging missing piece that would have tied things together, but is only feasable if securing office tenants (and who knows when we will see that potential again).  I know that McCle seems to think that everything can happen, but that is pretty unrealistic.  Hopefully if scraped, it can still move forward in some form or the other pivotal pieces on the drawing boards  for downtown can still happen (Cleve. Trust site).       

I'm saving my speculation until after I see what Stark presents later this month.  If he is changing the scale or direction of this project, then we'll have to just wait and see what his new plans are before any judgments are made. 

Unfortunately, I think that is the direction that things are heading, with the growth in scale/size of the FEB project would come at the expense of the Stark project, which I think was the most pivotal project for downtown.  Yes, the FEB is important for Cleve, but Pesht was the nagging missing piece that would have tied things together, but is only feasable if securing office tenants (and who knows when we will see that potential again).  I know that McCle seems to think that everything can happen, but that is pretty unrealistic.  Hopefully if scraped, it can still move forward in some form or the other pivotal pieces on the drawing boards  for downtown can still happen (Cleve. Trust site).       

 

Pesht has always been the biggest questionmark in terms of viability, simply due to it's scale.  Personally I think FEB is more important.  You can't have an abandoned waterfront.  Don't forget either that FEB and the other projects had a couple year head start.  Things of this magnitude don't sprout up over night.  It may not happen right now.  But I think with the momentum being built in downtown, when FEB is up and running, the ECP is finished, CSU has made their major moves on Euclid, 668, ameritrust complex, the district of design is in full swing, the avenue district (essentially 2010... and I think the redevelopment of E.12th is going to have a bigger impact than people realize)... and downtown is the "cool" place to be business wise.  The climate could be quite "ripe" for putting the crown jewel / finishing piece in place. 

My source tells me this project is shelved for an indeterminate amount of time. I see this project as getting scaled down quite a bit or not happening at all. Stark is having trouble finding big money lenders for this.

 

^I heard the exact same thing. Unfortunately it appears that the FEB's expansion has come at the expense of Pesht. For now.

Unfortunately, I think that is the direction that things are heading, with the growth in scale/size of the FEB project would come at the expense of the Stark project, which I think was the most pivotal project for downtown.  Yes, the FEB is important for Cleve, but Pesht was the nagging missing piece that would have tied things together, but is only feasable if securing office tenants (and who knows when we will see that potential again).  I know that McCle seems to think that everything can happen, but that is pretty unrealistic.  Hopefully if scraped, it can still move forward in some form or the other pivotal pieces on the drawing boards  for downtown can still happen (Cleve. Trust site).       

 

Pesht has always been the biggest questionmark in terms of viability, simply due to it's scale.  Personally I think FEB is more important.  You can't have an abandoned waterfront.  Don't forget either that FEB and the other projects had a couple year head start.  Things of this magnitude don't sprout up over night.  It may not happen right now.  But I think with the momentum being built in downtown, when FEB is up and running, the ECP is finished, CSU has made their major moves on Euclid, 668, ameritrust complex, the district of design is in full swing, the avenue district (essentially 2010... and I think the redevelopment of E.12th is going to have a bigger impact than people realize)... and downtown is the "cool" place to be business wise.  The climate could be quite "ripe" for putting the crown jewel / finishing piece in place. 

^McCleveland, I love your optimism and whole-heartedly agree. While Stark's project is either dead or going to be significantly scaled back for now, the site is simply too central and with economic forces changing the way we look at downtowns and central cities (primarily increasing fuel prices), along with all the developments already happening here, that will make those lots too valuable to sit vacant much longer into the future. The question will be whether Stark eventually gets this built or someone else takes the torch.

And according to officials at last week's E&Y announcement, DFAS is still looking for its own office space.

And according to officials at last week's E&Y announcement, DFAS is still looking for its own office space.

^I thought they were staying where they were (Celebreeze bldg?) and renovating their current space, no?

I'm saving my speculation until after I see what Stark presents later this month.  If he is changing the scale or direction of this project, then we'll have to just wait and see what his new plans are before any judgments are made. 

 

ditto.

Just heard some big news. I don't want to spill the beans, but you all won't have to hold your breath for long. Big announcement coming Friday. I hope to have more details by Wednesday.

Cool!  Start the countdown to Wednesday...

Can you at least say if it's good or bad?? Give us SOMEthing!

It's KJP!  Of course it's good news!  I'm guessing Stark has signed Microsoft and Boeing and upsized Pesht by 250%.

It's KJP!  Of course it's good news!  I'm guessing Stark has signed Microsoft and Boeing and upsized Pesht by 250%.

 

God, boeings 2nd new HQ in a few years? Now chicago is going to be pissed!

 

 

One of the two big law firms??..... Or both???  (Both of them dwarf Tucker Ellis in terms of space needed).  Given proximity to the courthouse, WHD would be prime location for both Baker and Squires.

 

How about the County???

 

Bottom line - there still are some major tenants out there to land but timetable to break ground in time to get them on board is evaporating rapidly.

Before this spirals out of control, Any posts from here on out guessing about the details of KJP's Tidbit Will be Deleted

Fair enough, pope.  But it's certainly exciting that something, anything is finally going down with this project, even if it turns out to be bad news. 

 

 

 

Before this spirals out of control, Any posts from here on out guessing about the details of KJP's Tidbit Will be Deleted

 

Sorry Pope! My main reason for posting that message was to stop the doomsayers from saying doom. It isn't warranted. It's good news, which will only show that the project is still alive. I just forgot how much the folks here like to pontificate when I drop one of my teases!

^Can you blame us!?!  This is one of the most anticipated projects in Cleveland!

Before this spirals out of control, Any posts from here on out guessing about the details of KJP's Tidbit Will be Deleted

 

Sorry Pope! My main reason for posting that message was to stop the doomsayers from saying doom. It isn't warranted. It's good news, which will only show that the project is still alive. I just forgot how much the folks here like to pontificate when I drop one of my teases!

 

Its not your fault, I certainly appreciate the heads up, just imagine

 

Post #1: Cheesecake Factory?

Post #2: (ColDayMan): Lawd have mercy!

Post #3: ESPN Zone?

Post #4: Tenant X

 

and on and on.....

 

Three pages later Me and Mayday have a bunch of poo to clean up.

I was strolling in beautiful downtown Crocker Park Sunday after seeing Iron Man and was depressed, wondering if this project was going to end up in the "abandoned" file....

 

Come on Friday!!!

How can you be depressed after seeing Iron Man of ANYTHING?  That post credits scene alone!!!!

Do NOT spoil it!! I haven't seen it yet.

It's the old rendering but it'll have to do:

 

This project is not being shelved or put on hold. I second what KJP said - wait until Friday!

AHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!  Can't wait!!!!

no no no.  We wait until Wednesday:)

 

I'm like most other Clevelanders on these forums - just wanting any good news for this city!  And this could be great (especially if the announcement has something to do with bringing in new businesses)

How about you get a tidbit right now?

 

I got an off-the-record news tip yesterday so I can't reveal the source. But the source asked me to call them back this afternoon because a meeting was to be held this morning to round out some details. Considering Tuesday is my papers' deadline day and I had five other articles to write today, I made a call to Stark's PR Guy this morning asking about a big announcement this Friday. PR Guy's response: "First I've heard of us making an announcement this Friday." He promised to make some calls. He called back about midday and said he's still checking.

 

Wrote three articles by noon and submitted two photo cutlines. Things are moving along well for a Tuesday. After my 15-minute lunch, I did as I was asked and called the source to find out the post-meeting details. Got voicemail. Damn.

 

Wrote another article. The front pages of the Cleveland papers were filling up rapidly with other stuff. Called the source back. Got voicemail. Damn. Wrote another article and called PR Guy. He said he hadn't heard back from one of their executives but said he would call back as soon as that happened. Never heard back. Front pages were full and would have to be sent to production soon. I could get a lesser article bumped, but something would have to happen quickly. Called the source again. Voicemail. In my message, I told the source I would need to hear back in 15 minutes if I was going to be able to get an article in this week's paper. The 15 minutes came and went.

 

Cleveland papers will come out Thursday -- without the big scoop.

 

So here's the incomplete information told to me by the source on Monday, prior to today's detail-planning meeting... Stark and Jacobs, the two former arch enemies, are apparently going to make a joint announcement Friday about seeking a downtown-wide tax increment financing district. The source said this TIF would be used to support both developers' developments in the Warehouse District (ie: Jacobs' Public Square skyscraper, Stark's mixed-use "Pesht" development).

 

My take:  I find it hard to believe that a downtown-wide TIF would be sought to support only one part of downtown. I figured Stark would want to see a larger TIF to support his larger downtown development vision he called "Y Cleveland." The bottom of the Y is Scranton Peninsula, the upper-left leg of the Y is the Warehouse District/Pesht and the upper-right leg is Euclid Avenue. If this is what's in the announcement, I'm surprised that only Stark and Jacobs would be involved. Although I'm surprised Stark and Jacobs would even look at each other after what happened between them in their vicious battle over Crocker Park. But then, any good businessman will put aside past squabbles if there's money to be made....

 

But since I couldn't get more details, I don't know if this is exactly what's being sought and what will be announced. So I guess we all have to wait, now, and see what, if anything, transpires.

"Stark and Jacobs, the two former arch enemies, are apparently going to make a joint announcement Friday about seeking a downtown-wide tax increment financing district."

 

Shut yo mouth and say it ain't so!!! :clap:

 

(aka - wow, who'da thunk?!?)

Aye Dios Mio

I thought scranton peninsula was owned by FCE

^Most of it is.  And much of the rest is owned by another non-Jacobs/Stark group

 

Will be interesting to see what gets announced on Friday and to to see what it amounts too...thanks for the tidbit!

"downtown-wide tax increment finance district" what exactly is this?  a tax on all current downtown businesses to help finance these projects?

 

 

^Typically it would mean redirecting property tax receipts resulting from new/re- development into infrastructure work supporting said new/re- development.  So no new taxes on downtown property owners other than what would would result from higher assessed values of new/re-developed parcels.

I will ask my Port Authority source tonight if this has legs or not. Hope so.

Are they seeking a downtown-wide TIF District which could be used by all developers such as K&D Ameritrust Tower Or are they seeking a downtown-wide TIF which would be available only for their projects

I do not know. What you saw in my message is all that I know about this.

I'm guessing this is related to Chris Warren's (Cleveland Chief of Econ Dev) announcement in December of 2007 in which four TIF districts would be created downtown; Warehouse District, lower Euclid Avenue, the "Collegetown" district,  and the Avenue District.

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/architecture/2007/12/_cleveland_mayor_frank_jackson.html

 

^Typically it would mean redirecting property tax receipts resulting from new/re- development into infrastructure work supporting said new/re- development.  So no new taxes on downtown property owners other than what would would result from higher assessed values of new/re-developed parcels.

 

But I am assuming that these property tax receipts were already going to fund something else, so does that mean that this would result in cuts elsewhere? Are we merely robbing Paul to pay Peter?

A TIF is a tool to use future gains in taxes to finance the current improvements that will create those gains.  When a public project is carried out, there is an increase in the value of surrounding real estate, and often new investment (new or rehabilitated buildings, for example).  This increased site value and investment creates more taxable property, which increases tax revenues. The increased tax revenues are the "tax increment." Tax Increment Financing dedicates that increased revenue to finance debt issued to pay for the project.

A TIF is a tool to use future gains in taxes to finance the current improvements that will create those gains.  When a public project is carried out, there is an increase in the value of surrounding real estate, and often new investment (new or rehabilitated buildings, for example).  This increased site value and investment creates more taxable property, which increases tax revenues. The increased tax revenues are the "tax increment." Tax Increment Financing dedicates that increased revenue to finance debt issued to pay for the project.

 

I don't want to go too far off, but perhaps others have the same question as mine: What are the disadvantages to a TIF, and who wouldn't want it?

A TIF is a tool to use future gains in taxes to finance the current improvements that will create those gains.  When a public project is carried out, there is an increase in the value of surrounding real estate, and often new investment (new or rehabilitated buildings, for example).  This increased site value and investment creates more taxable property, which increases tax revenues. The increased tax revenues are the "tax increment." Tax Increment Financing dedicates that increased revenue to finance debt issued to pay for the project.

 

I don't want to go too far off, but perhaps others have the same question as mine: What are the disadvantages to a TIF, and who wouldn't want it?

 

Typically the school district has the most to lose with a TIF (from a purely monetary standpoint) and usually has to sign off on the agreement and/or be made whole in some other way.

.....because those future tax windfalls would normally go to schools or other tax-supported institutions?

^i thought that the Steelyard TIF avoids taking any dollars that would go to the schools.