As promised, here's a few graphics from the Historic Warehouse District's revised plan, from 2002:

 

 

 

so i got dibs on those numbered tabs that hang across the current parking lot ocean around there. they are going to hang in my upcoming new lounge on west 3rd. it will be called "the parking lot" and the catchprases will be, "come on in and park it" and "no parking on the dancefloor" and "be good or get your asphalt outta here." lol -- how nice would it be to finally have that embarrassing black tar sea parted !!!

 

LMAO!!!!  ROFLMAO!!   :clap:

I agree with unbriacone that Tower City suffers from its own stagnation and obsolescence, more than from something being "wrong" with the city (as the Ratners would have us believe). Tower City is a mall, malls are obsolete, end of story. It made sense for its era (early 1990s), but times have changed.

If TC ever closed, we might stand a better chance of having street-level retail downtown again.

That said, I think it would be a big blow to the region's self-esteem if the complex were to go dark. Ideally, we could create enough new population downtown, through plans such as Stark's, to sustain both a mall *and* street-level retail.

I think unbriacone also makes an excellent point about FCE developing around rapid stations to ensure there is as much foot traffic coming into TC as possible. I realize FCE thought that by simply developing TC would spur more investment downtown to support TC. But why wait for others to do it? Why not take the initiative yourself to protect and enhance your investment. Developing around rapid stations would essentially be a simultaneous investment in the neighborhoods and downtown.

 

I do think that downtown malls still make some sense, as long as they are fully mixed use. Tower City is pretty close to that, offering hotels, offices and sporting venues. But the most important use missing from that mix is housing. Imagine what TC would be like if some of TC's holes (at Ontario and Huron, at Prospect and Superior, and between Canal and Huron) were filled with high-rise housing. I suspect it would be a very active place at more hours of the day.

The other thing is just simple advertising and promotion.  FCE has allowed the public's perception to be dictated by negative newstories like the closing of Dillard's, which was itself a victim of the fact that it's ownership never reinvested in or promoted it.  Tower City hasn't been upgraded in years- its the same thing that it was a decade ago.  No successful mall is standing still.  And when is the last time anyone saw any of those "Meet me on the Avenue mmm-bop-bop-bop" commercials that used to run every five minutes in this city? 

 

Tower City is suffering because it's ownership doesn't understand that if people are going to be enticed to drive past their local mall to come to theirs that they have to offer something more and something new, and keep it in the public's face.

I feel that FCE has been waiting for a big project to help prop up TC.  They wanted the convention center. They wanted the County offices. They wanted OfficeMax.  All of those projects would have brought in huge rent numbers and would have allowed TC to bring in retail tenants at higher lease rates.  I don't see them doing much until something big locates next door.

I feel that FCE has been waiting for a big project to help prop up TC.  They wanted the convention center. They wanted the County offices. They wanted OfficeMax.  All of those projects would have brought in huge rent numbers and would have allowed TC to bring in retail tenants at higher lease rates.  I don't see them doing much until something big locates next door.

 

I'm sorry.  FCE needs to make it happen, not wait for it to come to them.   As a person who knew many managers of stores and later in life worked on projects with corporate folks of closed stores.  FCE thinks they are "the shit". 

 

When barney's closed...they let the mall fall from a top tier retail attraction/shoppers paradise to a average everyday mall.

 

Not one of the stores that closed was a result of sales (Dillards, Barneys, LV, Gucci, Politix, TW Studio store) but a result of bad business decisions/business models of those parent company's.  The exception being Dillards as they don't the meaning of "ubran shopping" and let the DT location fall fast.  In addition, some stores left because FC didn't replace the closed stpres with retailers of equal caliber, so they were able to opt out of their leases.  I'm sure Banana republic and AF didn't want to leave TC, but the lack of good management has forced them to say we'd rather leave downtown cleveland than deal with FCE.

 

This is why i've said a complany like Simon Malls (our own Aurora Frams; the galleria in houston; Pentagon city in VA; Lenox Mall in Atlanta; Vegas Premium outlets, to name a few), who manages top malls all accross the country, should be brought in to return TC the DESTINATION it was built to be.

 

Instead of being pissed-off and "crying wolf" FCE should join in the residential band wagon.  Who would not want to live in an apartment at TowerCity?  What an amazing address! Having these 24 hour residents would gaurantee, built in shoppers.  Also, TC is not doing as bad as the media would lead you to believe (just like the Flats) and the restaurant collection in TowerCity is bustling constantly.

 

Ok....we've gotten of topic here....lets vent about FCE/TC elsewhere  8-)

By the way, the source who tipped me off that Stark was doing something big was none other than our own Wimwar!

 

Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Port Authority director Gary Failor spoke before one of Wimwar's classes and mentioned what the port folks were doing with Stark. I called Failor to confirm and he did. He also suggested we meet to talk further, but also suggested contacting Stark. That got the whole thing rolling.

 

A discussion of the port-Stark relationship will be the subject of the third and final article.

My heart skipped a beat when I saw the headline for the lakefront article in today's PD. But after reading it, they still don't have the story. Hehe

In Tower City's defense, all of the super high end stores like Barneys and Calvin Klein were there because the Nieman Marcus was going in there.  The Nieman Marcus was going there because the Rock Hall's original site was at TC.

 

When the Rock Hall moved, NM fell through, and the higher end stores were looking for a way out.

^I've often thought about what Cleveland would be like if the Rock Hall had gone behind Tower City as was originally intended.  I bet that FC was fuming when the decision to move it was made.  Here are some random thoughts:

 

1. I would hate that visitors would have to look out at Scranton Peninsula instead of seeing the lake.

 

2. Would this have spurred further development of this area?

3. It would kill the TC convention center concept.

4. Where would the GL Science center be?

5. What would downtown shopping be like if Neimann Marcus had signed on? Would we have ever lost Dillards?

 

 

In Tower City's defense, all of the super high end stores like Barneys and Calvin Klein were there because the Nieman Marcus was going in there.  The Nieman Marcus was going there because the Rock Hall's original site was at TC.

 

When the Rock Hall moved, NM fell through, and the higher end stores were looking for a way out.

 

to a certain degree, which is why many boutiques, opted out of their leases.  Yet TC had the option of bringing in Nordstroms - another store that came to them - and they did nothing.  This is well before the Beachwood store was announced, since we all know beachwood upgraded as a direct result of TC being built.

^I've often thought about what Cleveland would be like if the Rock Hall had gone behind Tower City as was originally intended.  I bet that FC was fuming when the decision to move it was made.  Here are some random thoughts:

 

4. Where would the GL Science center be?

 

 

For that matter, where would Cleveland Browns Stadium be?  I am messed up on timeline.  The GLSC opened in 1996, the HOF in 1995.  Municipal Stadium was torn down in 1996 I think.  So had the HOF not been built on the lakefront, we wonder where the GLSC would have gone.  Without either of them already there, when it was determined that the city would get a new team, would there have been as much momentum in that area to put the new stadium right on the site of the old one? 

 

It's interesting to wonder about how perceptions and whatnot.  While we can wonder what could be done with that extra room (talk about having to move the Port or shut down Burke might have become moot for a while given all that extra space to play with), I also think that it's possible (even probable) the lakefront would have been even more ignored today as a location for potential development if had remained empty.

Waterfront access is a huge amenity.  It is a huge amenity totally lost on stadiums and museums.  If we had put those things elsewhere, the lakefront would have been redeveloped with housing, hotels, and marinas imo.  It was just poor planning.  Why waste an amenity?

^Exactly, especially considering that the Browns Stadium gets used roughly 8 time ayear...unless they finally decide to make the playoffs sometime soon.

Waterfront access is a huge amenity.  It is a huge amenity totally lost on stadiums and museums.  If we had put those things elsewhere, the lakefront would have been redeveloped with housing, hotels, and marinas imo.  It was just poor planning.  Why waste an amenity?

 

I have to ask, if you were in charge when the option to build the new stadium came up.  where would you have built it and why?  There is that much undeveloped land to put something that size that isn't used.   nobody would want a "giants stadium", "dolphin stadium" miles away in the 'burbs ala the richfield coliseum. 

 

And what types of developments would you put in its current place?

I think the alternate site that was under consideration at that time was a decent choice -- what was the soon-to-be vacated Norfolk Southern intermodal yard just south of the Inner Belt. It has good highway access, three rapid transit lines running through it and enough open land to accommodate the stadium. If I remember right, city officials said the site preparation costs were too high.

That's the site I would have liked to have seen it, too.  I don't know if it was cost or time that eliminated the site.  We were on a very tight timeline to get the stadium done, afterall.

 

As for the type of development I would have preferred to see on the Stadium, HOF, and GLSC sites, I would have liked something similar to the current Waterfront Plan is suggesting for the Port land to the west, except perhaps higher residential density and more open space at the water's edge.

You mean higher density than what is in the city's lakefront plan, as opposed to what it is in the Stark plan?

 

<a shameless transition in preparation for posting article Part 2 tomorrow>

I figured you would bring up that comparison!  I guess I will have to see Stark's plan to know.

Hey X-man, Congrats! You just made your 1,500th post!

 

I remember when I posted my 1,500th message, young whipper snapper... must've been back in the pre-Cambrian Period when soil was invented and when Wilma Smith got her first face lift.

Hey X-man, Congrats! You just made your 1,500th post!

 

I remember when I posted my 1,500th message, young whipper snapper... must've been back in the pre-Cambrian Period when soil was invented and when Wilma Smith got her first face lift.

 

You make it too easy...

^I am on post #999.  I just posted so I could get closer to 1000. :)

Hey X-man, Congrats! You just made your 1,500th post!

 

I remember when I posted my 1,500th message, young whipper snapper... must've been back in the pre-Cambrian Period when soil was invented and when Wilma Smith got her first face lift.

 

I have accomplished what I came to do.  Now I can retire on an even number.

 

No, wait!  Damnit!  That makes 1,501!  I guess I'll just have to go for 2,000.

You make it too easy...

 

Aren't you supposed to be missing or something?

I saw that there was now a fourth page and that KJP had posted and thought for a moment that it was Wednesday... so sad.

 

this whole anticipation thing is killing me; although at least I'm guaranteed a good read.

haha!  :bang2:

Has it only been a week since the first story?  It seems longer.  I think that the Sun should do a special year-end double issue. (No matter that the year just begun)

I saw that there was now a fourth page and that KJP had posted and thought for a moment that it was Wednesday... so sad.

 

this whole anticipation thing is killing me; although at least I'm guaranteed a good read.

Your not alone, I thought the same thing when I saw recent postings to the thread.  Damn, I can't wait till later on today.  I was telling my wife about it the article last week (believe me, she doens't really care all that much; however, she was the first available person I could tell), I felt like a little kid running home to tell what I'd learned in school.

That reminds me, can we expect another Wednesday night sneak preview of part two? 

yeooowza!

 

somebody move out the pa asap!

wow this is looking really intense.  seeing it all put together like this its like almost half of downtown is getting built on, except almost all of it is on surface lots/port.

 

is the lower euclid/prospect area part of this?  i see theres buildings on the parking lots there too... 

Well isn't that a nice how do you do?  Thanks again to KJP for another great installment.  +Based on info from the previous week's article this is round about what I'm sure a lot of us might have envisioned; it's incredible, fabulous.  He's got hurdles ahead but this vision is really something....I think it's time.

 

Since I sense this will be a point of interest to regulars, here is a merging of the rendering posted above, with satellite imagery via google, and the relevant path of the waterfront line as it currently exists added in black.

 

 

While it was absent from the map and only briefly mentioned in the article, it feels like the the WFL can and should be a major part of what might happen here.  With the shoreway out of the picture (as boulevard) auto access to this portion of downtown becomes difficult.  Using the WFL for access seems like a no-brainer, not to mention it makes extention of this line eastward much more attractive.  Not knowing anything about the line as it goes east means I don't know exactly what could feasibly be done but...it's exciting.  Spread the word, folks. 

you could call the second phase brownsville

 

Hey KJP, I liked your almost subtle suggestion that this is not just a pie in the sky idea, because of Carney.

 

I really did not know the amount of powerfull positions he had, rather than just being filthy rich

Great story, KJP!  And thanks for the supplemental, Matches.

 

I'm really excited about that grid.  The idea of completely capping the railroad is ambitious, indeed, and wll pay huge dividends if accomplished.

 

50,000 is alot of people, but it is the kind of numbers we really need to be thinking about.  And that isn't even all of downtown!  Or even all of the Waterfront, for that matter.

I just looked at the map again, and the scale of it really hit me when I looked for the "HUGE" East bank project....not so big in comparison

I'm Vaklempted!

 

This is just all to real to absorb.  Stark has said all the things I wanted to hear/see, with exception to rail transportation.  I've written him a few times and it appears he does listen to what PROGRESSIVE, passionate and informed (metro) Clevelanders want for our city.

 

Now I can write him and ask will he move his headquarters downtown.  That symbolic move would make me a TRUE believer!

 

Spread the word and lets get our elected officials involved.  Let the "pesht" be with you!!!

 

KJP...you are a God! :banger:

Another good installment.  However this definitely tastes of pie in the sky.  The conceptual diagram doesn't seem to take into consideration the East Bank Flats Wolstein project and the possible new office building that would go alongside the WFL.  That project seems far more likely to kick things into gear for what comes next.  That project is pushing limits as far as 5000 or so people wanting to live downtown on the river near the lake.  Its a pretty brutal little area right there with the wind coming off the lake.  As far as those freight tracks, that seems rather difficult to bury them or just build over them.  To suggest another 25-30,000 people want to live where the PA had been is wacky barring serious global warming.

 

Also, take a look at Chicago's skyline.  You don't see huge enormous buildings right on top of Navy Pier.  There's maybe one high end multi-story building near there.  I guess the Gold Coast you would have multi story buildings coming to the lakefront if the highway wasn't right there blocking them.

 

  As strictly a concept its obviously a very nice vision to provide a roadmap for the next 50-100 years.  This is definitely no blueprint.  I love the part of expanding out of the warehouse district.  I would hope thats phase 2.

Whoops I meant East Bank.. grr..

I see the Wolstein project in the drawings... The office building was a last minute addition to the Wolstein plan because at the time we were in danger of losing DFAS.  The heart of the plan is still there, you just can't see it as well because it's small in comparison to what is being proposed.

I suspect Stark may not have much of a problem in convincing Scott Wolstein to alter the office building design in a manner to fit into the "Pesht" scheme. The two men are lifelong friends -- they grew up together, traveled to school together and continue to be friends to this day. I found that out when researching material for Part 2 of this series. Unfortunately, Scott Wolstein has been out of the country the last couple of weeks, so I haven't been able to find out how he sees his Flats East Bank project fitting in with Stark's vision.

 

Strnisha said he was pretty confident a tenant would be landed soon for the office building, but said it wasn't DFAS. He felt DFAS would probably end up in a new building near the new FBI HQ along Davenport Bluffs.

 

As for Navy Pier, Stark has no love for that. He specifically mentioned that he didn't consider it an effective use of Chicago's lakefront. He called it a failure.

 

Audidave, hold off on whether you think this is viable until you read the last part of the series. Ultimately, it doesn't really matter if Stark can build all of "Pesht." Once the port operations start moving, any developer can start investing in that massive property -- with the help of the port authority.

 

As for building above the tracks, that certainly is going to be a significant expense. But public capital often follows private investment. And part of that can come from the parking deck/staging area for the ferry. That would move the natural escarpment northward to next to the tracks, which simplifies bridging the tracks.

I wonder when the PD will wake up and report on this.

Good question. Sometimes, when you've been scooped, you let some time pass by and then report on a new angle to the old story to make it seem fresh. We all get scooped at one time or another.

 

And, to MyTwoSense, if I were God, then Frank Jackson would return my phone calls.

KJP,

 

Any word on when Stark/Asher will take this project to the city for approval?

 

Will the next article detail the breakdown of uses in phase I?

Here are some random thoughts:

 

-Pesht makes the waterfront line look like a genius decision. 

-The fact that Carney is the new chairman of the Port board is huge.

-I would love to hear Stark describe this project.  He seems to be a very passionate guy.

-I would also like to hear his concept for these projects: unique retail? pulling in many office tenants from the suburbs? price points of the condos? near public spaces?

 

 

 

Have any location tv stations mentioned anything? WCPN?

No word yet on when Stark/Asher will seek city approvals or what the land use mix will be for Phase I. Asher has met with Tom Yablonsky of the Historic Warehouse District Inc. and told him his plans are for a very high-density development. That's the first stop in the approvals process.

 

Ronayne said to me that a project like this would finally justify the Waterfront Line.

 

Carney's new position is very huge with respect to all of this, and that will become even clearer in the last article.

 

Stark is passionate about this. I had throw in the article the part about Stark's voice rising as he discussed how the street grid would work and what it would do. Stark shows his passion at very specific times, and is calculating in his use of it to sell his ideas. He is a rare mix of attorney, salesman and human behaviorist (I think I'll use that sentence again at some point!). He understands how to create a dynamic between people and bricks and mortar. He recognizes that buildings which interact best with sidewalks maximizes the income potential of a physical investment. Other than that, I couldn't give you any further insights into residential price points. I can tell you some of his philosophies regarding:

 

Specialty retail: He believes that attractive design is just as important as the demographic area to be served by a retailer. He was able to show his building designs and amenities to convince a number of retailers to come to Northeast Ohio for the first time, and his developments are the only places where they are located locally (Trader Joe's, Brio's, and some of the "off-shoot" retailers like Abercrombie Kids, Gap Baby, etc.).

 

Office marketing: His philosophy is that office spaces need indoor and outdoor "getaway" locations, like indoor gardens, outdoor courtyards, where office workers can get away from their desks to recharge. He said that's one thing that suburban office spaces fail at, because it often requires an office worker to get in their car to visit some place that's capable of re-energizing them.

 

Public spaces:  The indoor and outdoor spaces need to have eclectic, funky features, like a unique fountain, public art that's also functional (can provide a place for adults to sit or for kids to climb), or is downright bizarre, like Crocker Park's mammoth-size chess set with movable pieces. It's surrounded by tables with chess boards embedded in them. That has caused the Cleveland Chess Club to hold their competitions there.

 

There's more but I hope that gives more insight into Bob Stark.

 

Interesting stuff...If Stark pulls this all off, KJP seems to have some good material for a book.

I would like to see a public elementary school in the mix for the lakefront phase of Pesht.  That would help make the area much more of a neighborhood and entice families to move there.  Downtown will never reach its full potential if it only caters to empty-nesters, singles and child-less couples. 

Good point Wimwar!  What ever happened to the proposal to put a new "magnet" school in the only Higbees?  It's true that we need more innovative education alternatives if we are going to retain and lure more of the middle class to the city...especially to the Downtown area.  It doesn't need to be a traditional stand along structure either.  Ther are many creative ways to do schools in urban areas...