"The BP building, one of the city's three skyscrapers (and only one of two Class A commercial properties)" Ny Times 9/28/05 "Cleveland Pulls Back From the Edge"

 

I would assume the other one is the key tower. What other buildings do you think are class A? I've heard that class determinations can be subjective, so maybe the Times is wrong.

 

there are a ton of factors affecting a office spaces class, just to name a few: type of heating/cooling systems, number of elevators, proximity to park/landmark/lake/river, access to parking, wi-fi, type of ethernet/cable running through the building, view, etc, etc.

 

there's no mathematical formula for setting an office spaces class.

 

and a further anecdote. Lets take a boring building like Peton Media and just assume its class B. Put it in chicago in the loop, it probably drops to class c. Put it on the lakefront of chicago with views, jumps to class A. Put it in fargo, its in a class of its own.

 

(i have this post bookmarked b/c it comes up so often)

"I would assume the other one is the key tower. What other buildings do you think are class A? I've heard that class determinations can be subjective, so maybe the Times is wrong."

 

That article was full of inaccuracies, which I pointed out when it was first posted on this forum. The author was a former editor of Cleveland's Free Times and was the quintessential "disgruntled Cleveland native". Thus, when she wrote the article for the Times, she had no real impetus to get her facts straight - after all, if she found out that Cleveland wasn't as bad as she tried to portray it she might have to change her tune.

 

The original post is at http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=5353.0

 

The following buildings are listed as Class A office space with CB Richard Ellis. Mind you, they're just one of a handful of real estate service bureaus that handle Class A space so there are a few more that aren't in this list - One Cleveland Center, Eaton Center, Chase Office Tower, Skylight Office Tower, and the Penton Media Building. It took me two minutes to search on CB Richard Ellis's site to find that information.

 

Also, please read the pope's message about how Class A office space is defined.

 

 

Yes, the article's wrong. There was lots of discussion about it when it was first published.

 

A little weird that Stark wouldn't talk to Crain's after speaking to KJP. But it's good to hear Asher's optimistic take on the project.

 

Sandvick disappointed me with this remark: 'If you're removing that much parking, you have to replace any that we're losing and provide additional parking.' Let's stop worrying so much about the damn parking, kids! It's what got us into this predicament to start with. If we're creating walkable, mixed-use neighborhoods of the type Stark is discussing, we don't need as many spots for cars.

That's interesting about the Times article, I would have hoped that they would get basic facts right.

I'm glad office space is included in the project, the lack of class A office space downtown will make it difficult to attract/retain tenants. Right now, I think the key building is the only class A building. 

 

These are all considered Class A space in Cleveland:

- Key Tower

- BP Tower

- Eaton Center

- Skylight Office Tower

- Chase Financial Tower

- One Cleveland Center

- Penton Media Building

- And 5th 3d, Northpoint and National City should be as well.

 

either way, certainly more than 2.

^Well, I don't think that we can just remove 1000 spots and not expect any negative impact.  Theoretically, I think it would be great to get rid of the spots.  The courts and the police station, however, create a lot of demand for parking.  Those places are zoos--a lot of people coming and going throughout the day.  I believe that Cleveland's parking situation is odd. We have too much parking near Gateway, and just enough near the courts.  Truly, if we removed that much parking all at once, we would have a problem.  Like it or not, the warehouse district is greatly served by those parking lots.  If we got rid of them, we would have to replace most of them with new parking structures.  As we turn downtown into a neighborhood, we are still going to have to provide a lot of parking for those who commute.  But as we build up the area, I think that we could lower the amount of new parking spaces that we build with the new developments.   

 

 

Oh sure, I'm not saying forget about parking all together, but for it to come up as one of Sandvick's chief concerns is backward-thinking. At any rate, I'm sure Stark will be building new parking garages a-plenty.

I'm glad office space is included in the project, the lack of class A office space downtown will make it difficult to attract/retain tenants. Right now, I think the key building is the only class A building. 

 

These are all considered Class A space in Cleveland:

- Key Tower

- BP Tower

- Eaton Center

- Skylight Office Tower

- Chase Financial Tower

- One Cleveland Center

- Penton Media Building

 

What about the building where Jones Day is located?  Northpoint, I believe, is the name.  That was finished in the early 90s.

Oh sure, I'm not saying forget about parking all together, but for it to come up as one of Sandvick's chief concerns is backward-thinking. At any rate, I'm sure Stark will be building new parking garages a-plenty.

 

Its tough to tell by the article how much Sandvick emphasized the parking issue.  It may have been an aside. It may be a principal concern.  The project seems like it will include a lot of parking just above the retail. I believe that KJP pointed that out back when this stuff was truly breaking.  If the entire project area is built at the same time, then I can see how parking would be a big, yet temporary issue.

:)

 

Anyways, let's hope that this project gets moving faster than the East Bank. 

A recent Avenue District survey found that some 70% of visitors to their site said that they'd need 2 parking spaces for their unit.  I found that disappointing, but not necessarily surprising. 

 

I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but we're in Cleveland and we have to accept that it's going to take some time to reverse the trends of auto-dependency that have dominated the urban landscape for the past 50 years. 

 

Stark will account for the parking demand and he'll probably make a pretty penny off of it in the process.  And somewhere down the line, we'll have a Downtown that's got so much going on within walking distance that residents won't think it necessary to bring two cars into the mix.  They can just sign up for City Wheels!

A little weird that Stark wouldn't talk to Crain's after speaking to KJP. But it's good to hear Asher's optimistic take on the project.

 

I also found it interesting too that Stark gave me the graphics for my articles, but apparently wouldn't even talk to Stan Bullard for the Crain's article. Wonder if there's some "history" there?Then again, Asher wouldn't return my phone calls, though I've never written anything about him before, so that's how it goes sometimes.

 

Also, Bullard noted that Crocker Park is a $100 million development. It's actually more than $400 million. I realize sometimes it's difficult for a reporter to remember everything, especially for a complex story like this one. No big deal. Stuff happens.

 

As for the parking, Sandvick is just making a general statement of concern since he hasn't seen any plans. All I've seen were Stark's renderings (one which I used for the Sun articles) and his verbal descriptions of what the parking supply would be. It includes 2-3 levels of parking above the ground-floor retail in just about every building he proposes. Above the parking would be the mixed use (office or retail). Armed with that information, a simple understanding of spatial use would tell you that there is going to be at least as much parking as there was before with the surface lots. I'm not crazy about so much parking either, but since lenders almost always insist on including it, that's something a developer has to do if they want their project to receive funding.

There are something like 900-1000 parking spaces (if I'm counting right) on those two blocks.  This is staggering given that it's all on one plane should not be difficult to make up, I don't think, given a couple of levels and some decent square footage.  Just breezing by the other recent parking-related thread on Gateway, the smaller Gateway garage apparently has space for about 1,000 vehicles.  Of course that garage has something like 5-6 levels of parking.  But you cat fit about 5-6 footprints of that garage onto the site, so that should not be too big a problem.

By the way, having read the Crain's piece, I think Stark jumped the gun in my articles when he said he was working with T.J. Asher on the Warehouse District "power block" (which is what that block used to be called). I don't think he's as far along as he led me to believe. And, to take it step further, if I was in his shoes last fall and a Sun reporter called to ask about his downtown designs, I would have said "stay tuned." I don't think he was far enough along in his due dilligence yet to publicly release as much info and images as he did. Don't get me wrong -- I'm grateful. But I also want to see this development happen (or more appropriately, those parking lots to go away!). As a developer said to me once: "Premature publicity puts plans for projects in peril."

As I'm not downtown constantly, I tend to lose perspective on the expansive nature of these parking lots at the city core. So I looked at Google Earth for the first time in months and found that the "Buildings" tab was finally showing buildings in Cleveland (no Columbus or Cincy yet.)

 

 

Zooming around downtown is both entertaining (I'm easily amused) and a little distressing as you rotate around the massive footprint of these parking lots next to the scale of the surrounding buildings. I believe that the 515 Euclid garage-just finished with retail space-has something like 520 parking spaces. Two of these buildings-with retail, of course-would quickly make up 1000 or so parking spaces Matches estimates on these two blocks. That this space has sat bare like this for so many years, despite how lucrative the parking lot industry might be, is really distressing. Especially when you contrast the scale of the neighborhood's building stock. I'm just hoping Stark paces himself and brings this thing to fruition. I'll be sick if I have to stare at these parking lots for another 15 years.

 

As a developer said to me once: "Premature publicity puts plans for projects in peril."

 

That developer deftly alliterates their desire to discussing developments to some distant date.

Yes, the lots are truly awful. Downtown would feel so much better if there were buildings on them.

I got a little nervous reading KJP's last post. I hope the publicity about the project hasn't somehow put it in jeopardy.

/\  I remember an article a while ago where Stark said something LIKE, "I wouldn't be talking about it, if it I didn't think I could do it". I kind of believe him. I think it will happen. The project seems more than a proposal. he's already aquired some land. Once he finalizes his plan with the lot owners, I don't think the city will stand in his way. I would consider this plan is more than a proposal, less than go-ahead. It is progressing, and I think very nicely.

Stark hasn't acquired any land downtown. He's working with property owners who have already put down their stakes. Foremost among them is Tony Asher.

 

As for the article you mentioned, it's in this thread but a few pages back at http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=6727.msg70057#msg70057

 

BTW, welcome to the forum, Vulpster03.

http://www.cleveland.com/business/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/business/114578158582040.xml&coll=2

 

Developer Stark's ideas for downtown get positive reception

Sunday, April 23, 2006

 

For the past year or so, developer Bob Stark has been pitching his plan to anybody locally who will listen: Mayor Frank Jackson, Cleveland City Council members, Cuyahoga County commissioners, downtown property owners, the boards of the port authority and Downtown Cleveland Partnership.

im glad to see this on the front page of the business section.  hopefully with the PD (which seems to have virtually the same article that was in the Sun) this creates more buzz about it. 

better late than never !!!

Why is it though that a credible billion plus dollar development proposal only got onto the front page of the business section, not the front page itself?  Isn't this one of the largest development proposals in Cleveland's history?  Shouldn't this be bigger news than a poor single mom being suckered into signing for 5 houses, or a story about a corrupt art dealer?

well, thats our plain dealer....

 

wouldn't you like to be alex machaskee or robert long or doug clifton for a day? what the heck are those guys thinking? this is not bigger news? ok, i'll give them the benefit of the doubt that maybe it'll get the front page when they actually start building. prob more likely it will happen when someone complains about it.

 

btw -- this is speculative, but besides the parking lot owners i wonder what talks stark has had with the 800lb gorillas surrounding his project -- fcr and wolstein? certainly they may play a hand in any outcome of this massive idea, good or bad/like it or not. i don't see them as neutral bystanders.

I don't see what leverage FCE has at this point.  They don't have any ownership stake in the land, and they don't have any big downtown projects on the board, except their convention proposal, to use as bargaining chips.  I wouldn't be surprised if Wolstein makes some noise about this though.  It is a lot of competition, and would dwarf his project.  But I am sure that he has known about the project for some time, and he is still carrying through.  These guys all talk.

sounds like Stark needs to work out a deal with the Ashers before he can do anything

 

Mayor Jackson needs to keep the 15 year 100% tax abatement program for condo buyers if this project (and the others being planned for Downtown) are to be successful

The article was nice to read, but the Sun's series was much better and more informative.

 

I am really excited abgout this project, and I feel pretty confident it is going to happen. First of all it makes so much sense, and second of all I think Stark's approach in bringing property owners as partners in this development is a lot better option than using eminent domain. I think this is the single most transformative project for downtown on the table.

 

I still think this development will capture a different retail and residential niche than the Avenue District and the Flats East Bank. Maybe some competition will exist between these developments, but this project sounds a lot more like very high energy downtown type development, whereas the other projects seem to want to create a more quiet neighborhood atmosphere. I do find it very interesting that all these developments are shooting for a 2009 completion date. It would be wonderful if it was all at once, and with the Euclid Corridor project, I think you'd really see a lot more metropolitan pride and interestest in downtown.

Imagine if Pesht, The Avenue District, The Flats East Bank, Lighthouse Landing, East Fourth St., maybe even District Park, and the Euclid Corridor, Convention Center, and County offices were all done by 2010.  Not to mention smaller infill developments.  Downtown would be completely different!

Don't forget Stonebridge's long-range plans and a tower atop 515 Euclid. Then, throw in the County Administration building on Euclid, the added DFAS jobs, Quicken Loans (I'm just counting the loan center, not an HQ), UHHS on Euclid, CWRU on Euclid (hoping they get their act together) and, who knows, maybe another major office presence (Bank of America, a local internet start-up or two that's booming) and you've got the makings of something truly remarkable.

 

But, sorry to be a killjoy, there's some things in our nation's economy that cause me grave concern (housing bubble, oil prices, trade deficit, worsening personal debts, etc) and little inclination by our "leaders" to address them (or voter concern about them). Oil prices may make downtown living more attractive, but will also cause construction costs to increase. Too bad a lot of these downtown projects didn't start earlier....

^Also, many of these projects are extremely intrest rate sensative and need to get going quick. 

I'm really retaining my optimism, though I'm also worried that petty politics will get in the way of this project ... too many shareholders who are looking at Stark and saying, "where's my piece of the pie?" who don't care about the city as a whole, but what they can get out of it, either financially or politically.  Volpe seems a bit like sour grapes, probably because he's not been consulted to design one of his uber-ugly slab-and-block townhouses which he's putting up all over the city (apparently the idea of designing something to fit into area architecture is a concept that he's never heard of).  I'm also distressed to see the quote from the guy from CB Richard Ellis, because it seems from his quote that he ONLY is viewing this as a retail opportunity.  What he's missing here is that by creating more critical mass downtown with more residencies, there will be MORE opportunity for retailers.  The problem with Tower City and Galleria was that both were suburban-style shopping malls downtown ... and no one lived downtown then.  After the novelty wore off, why would someone come downtown from the suburbs just to shop at exactly the same stores they could get in their malls?  However, with this project (and Wolstein's project, and Stonebridge, and Lighthouse, and the Avenue ... etc. etc. et al), all happening (knock on wood), it will create a population of urban dwellers downtown who will be looking for retail.  The market will then be there ... instead of putting the cart before the horse, now these projects are building on one another, putting the people into the new downtown neighborhoods, and then attracting the retailers to serve those people.  And then, and ONLY THEN, will you get the Chicago-style vibe or New York-style vibe that people are looking for.  That's the beauty of Stark's idea ... take these HUGE lots, put residencies and retail on them, AND parking, and you'll really remake the city.  And as much as I, a lifelong Clevelander, love the city ... it does need a remake.  And if these projects do happen, then this city will be remade in a way not seen since the Union Terminal project in the late 1920s, or even the Group Plan from the turn of the century.  If Stark and these other developers can get past the small-minded newspaper and the petty-minded politicians, then what can result might actually spawn a hell of a beautiful, vital, exciting city to live in.

 

The only thing about all these projects that are out there presently are that they are so large scale.  They seem to be vulnerable for disaster and extremely difficult to get out of the ground.  Course as I stated earlier, they are all interest rate sensative, and if you are going this large scale, now is the time to do it.  I just wish he could take over one lot, then two, then three and so on, and piece together a nice thriving neighborhood aka Stonebridge.  It works so much quicker and easier. 

I absolutely believe in the premise behind this development strategy.  And I do believe that in Downtown Cleveland, the more we build, the more attractive the whole thing will be.  So, I believe that the Avenue District and the Flats East Bank will make this project more marketable and vice versa.

 

However, I wonder if there is something to be said for the amount of retail space included in this and other developments.  The Avenue District is designed with amenity retail...which will help sell the neighborhood, but won't be competing with suburban malls or even Tower City.  Flats East Bank is moving more towards regional retail and Stark's project would definitely be moving in that direction...  So, will this be flooding the marketplace? 

 

Obviously, this thing would be built in phases, so they can guage the interest as they go and compare it with the other major developments going on in and around Downtown.  But I'm wondering how Stark's plan will be competing with Steelyard Commons, Crocker Park, Legacy Village, etc.  In my opinion, this should prove more viable than each of those.  Especially if Stark is looking to grab not only urban-style big boxes, but also international specialty retailers like Urban Outfitters, H&M, Crate & Barrell, etc. 

 

Basically, I think this can be successful and I think that NEO can support more than one of each of these retailers, but I'd had to see 1 million square feet built all at once and only half of it get occupied.  Just some thoughts...

Yeah, that's a key question ... all of these projects include some sort of retail, and how will they all work.  Again, I look at Chicago as a model.  Because the population downtown is high enough, there's a market for a lot of retail downtown, and those retailers are usually fairly specialized and unique enough to also attract surburbanites.  Hopefully, the developers of these projects in Cleveland will also try to not just get retail for retail sake, but rather find specialized retail to fit into their housing projects ... to add convenience stores, hardware, home furnishings, clothes, restaurants (for all price ranges, from fast-food to fancy), and "social" retailers like bookstores and coffeeshops.  And hopefully rents will be structured as well to allow local entrepreneurs to try their hand and fulfilling the new residents' needs.  Because one of the key aspects of these neighborhoods is walkability ... so while Steelyard Commons is nearby, there's probably not too many people who will walk there from the Flats East Bank or "Budapest" in the Warehouse District.  And there may be plenty of people living in those neighborhoods who will be going carless.  So the market may be there to support a lot of retail ... providing it's the right sort of retail!

 

The residential components will definitely support the neighborhood/amenity retail (the coffee shops, dry cleaners, etc.) and we have the workday population that suburban malls don't have, but regional specialty retailers will still be depending on luring shoppers from around the region.  I can't think of anywhere in NEO that is a more feasible location for regional flagship stores, due to the aforementioned workday population, the upcoming housing density, the hotels, the conventions, the tourism, etc., but there will still be the issue of the "buying power" of the existing population when these retailers are looking to move in.  There's just not much there when you look at the existing residential population alone.  As with many Cleveland projects, they have to look at the potential of the location, which I believe is unparalelled anywhere in the region.

I can think of a number of retailers not in the Cleveland market, but could do very well.  In addition they would probably only be interested in a development like Stark for their store locations. I'm thinking of stores like Club Monaco, Zara, Armani Exchange. These stores aren't overpriced and there is no reason why they couldn't do well and they would be most interested in attracting downtown dwellers over suburban residents anyway as part of their brand building.  If you aren't familar with them, they are essentially similar concepts to Banana Republic, but operate more exclusively in metropolitan areas and usually aren't located in suburbs. There are probably other retailers that would only settle for a downtown in Stark's development if they were to come in the Cleveland market at all. Anyway, I think there is a retail agglmoration that would be extremely approrpriate for Stark's development downtown and could draw people from all over.

 

I think the key to getting downtown retail up and going again is to attract retailers that don't have very expensive merchandise, but are distributed somewhat exclusively. H&M and Urban Outfitters are exactly the type of stores I am talking about. It is too bad they didn't go downtown, but fortunetly I think there are other like-retailers remaining to enter downtown and get things going again.

I can think of a number of retailers not in the Cleveland market, but could do very well.  In addition they would probably only be interested in a development like Stark for their store locations. I'm thinking of stores like Club Monaco, Zara, Armani Exchange. These stores aren't overpriced and there is no reason why they couldn't do well and they would be most interested in attracting downtown dwellers over suburban residents anyway as part of their brand building.  If you aren't familar with them, they are essentially similar concepts to Banana Republic, but operate more exclusively in metropolitan areas and usually aren't located in suburbs. There are probably other retailers that would only settle for a downtown in Stark's development if they were to come in the Cleveland market at all. Anyway, I think there is a retail agglmoration that would be extremely approrpriate for Stark's development downtown and could draw people from all over.

 

I think the key to getting downtown retail up and going again is to attract retailers that don't have very expensive merchandise, but are distributed somewhat exclusively. H&M and Urban Outfitters are exactly the type of stores I am talking about. It is too bad they didn't go downtown, but fortunetly I think there are other like-retailers remaining to enter downtown and get things going again.

 

Downtown Cleveland isn't always the most attractive sounding locale for fashion retailers, despite the cetral location and the proximity to some of the region's most popular tourist destinations. So I think the most effective way to draw in those fashion retailers would be to somehow secure a major high-end boutique and then use that to boost the prestige and interest in the area. If Stark could score a Louis Vuitton or a Dior just imagine the excitement it would create and the interest from other retailers to be located near one of those stores.

 

And while the average Joe isn't going to head down to Louis every time he needs a new pair of shoes, there is definitely a market for one or two super-luxury stores. There are enough spoiled brats, young professionals and old-money socialites to keep them afloat.

 

Stark has to think big to really make an impressive, UNIQUE place to draw in both suburbanites and other retailers.

Stark has to think big to really make an impressive, UNIQUE place to draw in both suburbanites and other retailers.

 

That big thinking starts with big incomes to draw in unique retailers -- if that's what Stark wants. I suspect he'd be happy with having neighborhood basics like a full grocery store (though Flats East Bank is supposed to have one), banks, video stores, drug store, book store, basic clothing stores (sometimes you just need a pair of socks or a new belt!), home decorating store (ie: Bed Bath & Beyond), office supply (I'll bet lots of the new housing will double as home offices), package delivery stores (Mailboxes Etc...), a postal retail brach (though there's a couple already downtown), computer/electronics store, bakery, and so on.

 

I imagine Stark already has his list of what retail (and retailers) will make that a true downtown neighborhood, and he's probably been talking to retailers about it for some time.

Stark has to think big to really make an impressive, UNIQUE place to draw in both suburbanites and other retailers.

 

That big thinking starts with big incomes to draw in unique retailers -- if that's what Stark wants. I suspect he'd be happy with having neighborhood basics like a full grocery store (though Flats East Bank is supposed to have one), banks, video stores, drug store, book store, basic clothing stores (sometimes you just need a pair of socks or a new belt!), home decorating store (ie: Bed Bath & Beyond), office supply (I'll bet lots of the new housing will double as home offices), package delivery stores (Mailboxes Etc...), a postal retail brach (though there's a couple already downtown), computer/electronics store, bakery, and so on.

 

I imagine Stark already has his list of what retail (and retailers) will make that a true downtown neighborhood, and he's probably been talking to retailers about it for some time.

 

But would Stark being going to all the trouble of attending the International Council of Shopping Centres convention just to have a Giant Eagle and a Taco Bell in his neighborhood? He wants to make it a unique experience to draw people in, not just to support a neighborhood. I normally wouldn't delude myself into believing that some great fashion retailers could be coming to Cleveland, but the excitement, prestige and scale of this project leads me to believe that Stark isn't looking for your everyday run-of-the-mill shops for his megaproject.

Stark attends the convention every year, as do most national developers who are involved in retail. It's one of those must-attend events for developers who desire to stay in business.

Stark attends the convention every year, as do most national developers who are involved in retail. It's one of those must-attend events for developers who desire to stay in business.

 

Eh, but this project isn't being spun as a neighborhood. The emphasis is all on the retail end of it, with the housing and office space being secondary, as opposed to the way the Avenue District is being marketed. The way I see it, why would he make such a big deal out of it, calling it a mega-project and talking about how it's going to give downtown "an extreme makeover" with all the retail, if it's just stuff to sustain a neighborhood? And this is the man behind Crocker Park and Eton, which again were projects that put retail first and residential/office space wayyy back in second.

This sure as hell IS being marketed by Stark as a neighborhood. Who in the world told you it wasn't? Listen carefully to what Stark says about creating an urban wholism, a community, a context. Give him that and then decide what you think this project, and Stark, is or isn't.

 

I can tell you from speaking with him a number of times that his first priority is to look at an urban area as an organic whole, and that restoring downtown Cleveland's viability is an essential piece of restoring health to the region. That restoration comes from making downtown an enjoyable place to live, work, shop, play, dine, socialize, meet, learn and grow as a human being in one dynamic setting. He understands that this is why cities exist.

 

To say that Stark just wants to build some stores downtown is a very unenlightened statement.

What stage is this project in exactly, or I mean, what is the next step for Stark? Are their some property owners holding out, or are they trying to figure out financing? So far most of the press has all been about what Stark "wants" to do, which sounds great.

It's in the site control stage. Stark wants control of (or at least a stake in) the site for Phase 1 by the end of May.

 

BTW, as an aside, he's told me on Wednesday that one lender he's spoken with found this downtown development more palatable than Crocker Park because the urban-like Crocker Park was "out of place" for its suburban surroundings. The lender said what Stark is now proposing belongs exactly where he is proposing it.

Wow, thats really good news. I'm glad lenders are being receptive this. Intuivitely- and as someone who likes to think they know Greater Cleveland very well- I believe this development makes so much sense and will be extremely successful. I think if lenders, retailers, and other stakeholders are really given enough information about the region's demographics, trends in urban centers, and potential of this site, then there is no reason why it shouldn't happen. I am very pleased with Stark and believe he has high expectations that will be delivered

This sure as hell IS being marketed by Stark as a neighborhood. Who in the world told you it wasn't? Listen carefully to what Stark says about creating an urban wholism, a community, a context. Give him that and then decide what you think this project, and Stark, is or isn't.

 

I can tell you from speaking with him a number of times that his first priority is to look at an urban area as an organic whole, and that restoring downtown Cleveland's viability is an essential piece of restoring health to the region. That restoration comes from making downtown an enjoyable place to live, work, shop, play, dine, socialize, meet, learn and grow as a human being in one dynamic setting. He understands that this is why cities exist.

 

To say that Stark just wants to build some stores downtown is a very unenlightened statement.

 

Neighborhoods = LAME.

You really think so? Are Soho, Manhattan's Upper-Eastside, Harvard Square, Beverly Hills, Miami Beach, Chicago's Magnificent Mile, or Lincoln Park "neighborhoods" that equate with "lame"? Shopping malls aren't enough to support good retail in the long-run. The uniqueness and attractiveness of good mixed-use districts that cater to tourists, residents, and workerss alike tend to yield the most impressive and sustainable retail mix.

Neighborhoods = LAME.

 

???????????

 

The only way that downtown retail will have any staying power is if there is a built-in market close by and there are residents to add street life to the area. 

I think Paris Hilton is pulling our leg... obviously, the way we define a "neighborhood" varies from person to person, but no one can deny that neighborhoods are way cool (ie: not lame)

Here's some pictures of the port area:

 

Lonely Cleveland Browns Stadium....

 

 

This is where the city's first and second Union Depots were. The first was from 1853 to 1864, and the second from 1864 to 1930. Pennsylvania Railroad continued to use it from 1930 to 1964 when it ended passenger service to Cleveland from the southeast. It's where the Port Authority is proposing its huge parking deck, truck staging area for the lake ferry and, on top of it, where buildings and an extended West 6th Street can be built....

 

 

Another view of the port land, from the intersection of West 9th and Front Street, looking northwesterly....

 

 

If Stark or whomever builds over the tracks, it would have to be on a gradient, much like this northernmost section of West 9th Street....

 

Bump for pictures added to edited old post above.

Down with this project! The disruption to tailgating volume around the stadium would too greatly impact the cottage industry of selling crappy F**K Baltimore T-shirts, plastic beeded Browns necklaces, and game day pan-handling.  Pesht hurts the little people, the huddled masses, and the street hawkers.  I ask, does Cleveland really need/want Pesht? ;)