Buddah?

 

As in "Buddah Pesht", I believe

 

Isn't that the entire point? Pesht is the new city and Buddah is the old. Stark would be building the new one. By the way, its spelled every which way according to google.

 

The point is that we don't need to be reminded why things can't happen.  Take the energy and figure out ways to make it happen.  I haven't worked very long in the city planning circles of Cleveland, but I definitely see a dichotomy between those who spend a lot of energy figuring out reasons why things can't be done and those who spend a lot of energy figuring out ways that things can get done. Luckily, its the younger and more influential ones who are the latter.

Isn't that the truth! Too bad a number of those who spend their energy figuring out why things won't work seem to be employed at NOACA. But they sure don't have the market cornered!

Anybody catch the fairly extensive article in "Inside Business" this month.  Not much that hasn't been talked about in this thread, but it's good to know that the project is moving around the many circles of the city.

 

Also, does anybody else hope that there is some new information on this thread everyday?  I open up this site and always check to see what's up with this.

 

^I read it. Nothing new, but I agree that its good to see it making the rounds.

 

W28th-I agree about wanting to see somthing new.

OK, you want some new information?

 

I called Bob Stark today to see if he could tell me what was happening with his project. He said he's continuing to work the market aspects (ie: financing, leasing, etc). I asked him what impact the sale of the Duane Cameron parking lots near West 9th would have on his project. Stark responded that he would seek a development agreement with the new owner, just as he did with Asher and had tried with Cameron.

 

We discussed the West Shore transit project (see the Cleveland-Lorain commuter rail thread in the transportation section) and asked him about using a TIF on Pesht to help pay for it. Stark said he is trying to develop a political consensus for using a TIF on Pesht to pay for infrastructure work downtown to make Pesht possible. That includes extending the street grid northward to the lake. He didn't say anything about the port island however and, to be honest, I forgot to ask! And the TIF would not only include things like property and income taxes, but county sales taxes, as well.

 

Remember, a TIF is based on additional taxes resulting from a new project. But some of the sales taxes on items purchased in Pesht would likely come at the expense of existing retail outlets elsewhere in Cuyahoga County. So this could be controversial!

Good to hear he will try to get a development agreement for the lot at W9th and St. Clair.  If that part of the Warehouse District remains parking, it will never be the complete urban project we all want.  Damn I hate surface parking lots.  Its the embarrassment of the city.

And to hell with retail in other parts of Cuyahoga County, bring it all Downtown!

I wonder why the development agreement didn't work with Duane Cameron.

Did the guy just want to sell his parcel at top dollar to get out and not deal with getting involved with the Pesht development?  Is the new owner interested in getting into Pesht and that's why they bought the land?

I know earlier in this thread that the new owner is just another parking lot tycoon, but have they ever done any sort of development deals?  I really hope so.

And to hell with retail in other parts of Cuyahoga County, bring it all Downtown!

 

That's not the point of my question though. If you have retail sales made somewhere in Cuyahoga County (including downtown), then Pesht is built, the sales tax TIF district is established for it, and retail sales are diverted to within Pesht, is the loss of that sales tax revenue to the county and RTA worth it? How much might the loss be and for how long?

 

then Pesht is built, the sales tax TIF district is established for it, and retail sales are diverted to within Pesht, is the loss of that sales tax revenue to the county and RTA worth it? How much might the loss be and for how long?

 

My gut feeling is YES, it's worth it!!

 

Pesht is the only Cleveland-area urban development proposal that is TRANSFORMATIONAL.  It has the potential to totally change the playing field with Northern Ohio's suburban sprawl problem.  It has the potential to entice out-of-state employers and fortune 500 companies to seriously consider Downtown Cleveland.  This would happen because the entire environment of Downtown would be positively transformed.  We would have a much more exciting, vibrant and prosperous urban core.

yay!  :clap:

FYI

 

Tuesday, October 17th 4-6 pm A Vision for the Warehouse District

Developer of Eton Chagrin Boulevard and Crocker Park, Bob Stark will join us to discuss his latest vision for the future of the Warehouse District.

Check back soon for event details and registration.

http://urban.csuohio.edu/forum/index.shtml

I totally forgot to mention this here at UO.... When I was at the Stonebridge announcement last week, Cimperman said if these projects happen -- Stark's first phase, the Avenue District, Stonebridge expansion, Flats East Bank, East 4th and all of the smaller housing projects underway or about to begin -- downtown should have a population up to 25,000 as early as 2010.

^i'd love to believe it, but i am a numbers man.  how d owe get from 8 or 9k to 25k with these projects?

 

stark phase 1 - maybe 400 units (best case 800 residents)

avenue district - maybe 1000 units (so liberally say 2000 residents)

stonebridge - 1200 units in near term phases (2400)

east bank - unknown units (1000 residents)

east 4 - what projects are under way, besides the proposed tower?

other projects - public square, prospect ave, channel 3 (maybe 200 residents)

 

this looks more like 6000 or 6500 residents being added if everything goes as planned - which is amazing.  but, it also show why we should have a junk load of projects in the pipeline and under construction to continue the downtown expansion. 

 

i don't think that what is currently announced can equal 25000. although, i'd still be happy seeing another 7000 people downtown.

 

I'd love to believe it too, but the likelihood of all of these projects being inhabited in 3 years, let alone off the ground, is not great.  I like that Cimperman is optimistic and thinking big, but he can't be completely serious...

 

Did he just say this to you or to an audience?

Did he just say this to you or to an audience?

 

I'm sorry but I just have to point out the irony - you seem to imply that's it's more likely he said it to a crowd rather just to KJP.  The implication being that it's SOP and more acceptable to tell a "whopper" to a bunch of people than it is to just one.

 

Ah, politics.

 

What I think is key here is that if we can establish downtown as a viable and "hip" place to live and put that into the consciousness of people in the metro, you'll hopefully start to see a looking inward towards other Cleveland-proper neighborhoods by people looking to be close to the new energy but who don't want to pay downtown-type numbers.  Momentum.

 

You'll hopefully start to see a looking inward towards other Cleveland-proper neighborhoods by people looking to be close to the new energy but who don't want to pay downtown-type numbers.  Momentum.

 

Hello, Chinatown!!!

He said it to me, but there were others standing nearby. It does seem optimistic. Question is, what does he consider downtown? Is he including everything in his ward? That's everything from Tremont, parts of Ohio City, Flats, St. Clair-Superior and, of course, what is commonly considered downtown. If so, I can certainly see 25,000 -- in which case Ward 13 would probably have to be reduced in geographic area to account for population losses in other areas. BTW, Cleveland wards each have about 20,000 people.

Maybe he hasn't really crunched the numbers like we have. With all the talk of projects downtown, it's easy to get an inflated sense of how many people could soon be living there.

^i'd love to believe it, but i am a numbers man.  how d owe get from 8 or 9k to 25k with these projects?

 

stark phase 1 - maybe 400 units (best case 800 residents)

avenue district - maybe 1000 units (so liberally say 2000 residents)

stonebridge - 1200 units in near term phases (2400)

east bank - unknown units (1000 residents)

east 4 - what projects are under way, besides the proposed tower?

other projects - public square, prospect ave, channel 3 (maybe 200 residents)

 

this looks more like 6000 or 6500 residents being added if everything goes as planned - which is amazing.  but, it also show why we should have a junk load of projects in the pipeline and under construction to continue the downtown expansion. 

 

i don't think that what is currently announced can equal 25000. although, i'd still be happy seeing another 7000 people downtown.

 

 

Where are you getting these numbers, especially the one for Pesht?

^Avenue District is about 414 units, not 1000.

i was just taking a stab at trying to get to 25000 residents.  at 1:30am i wasn't in the mood to look up each project. 

 

so avenue district is a little less, maybe pesht is a little more.  my only point is, i don't see where the additional 15000 residents will live by 2010 with the current projects.  and if that is the case, our biggest downtown supporters shouldn't be making unsubstantiated statements like this without some backup.   Even stonebridge which has been successful is only currently adding at best a 150-200 units a year.

I heard that Stonebridge will be marketing itself in the "A Place for Us" manner.  Instead of aging gay folk, they're going in a completely different direction and targeting young Mormon families. They hoping to get 10 people in per unit. That's how Cimperman got his numbers.

I think you've vastly underestimated Stark's project.  He's building 6 million sq ft of mixed office and residential.  I'd guess that a downtown apt is going to average 1,000 sq ft, so that's up to 6,000 units.  Less or more depending on the mix and actual average size.  So yeah, it's possible that we could get close to 25,000 if these projects happen.  That's a big if of course.

I heard that Stonebridge will be marketing itself in the "A Place for Us" manner.  Instead of aging gay folk, they're going in a completely different direction and targeting young Mormon families. They hoping to get 10 people in per unit. That's how Cimperman got his numbers.

 

lol.  the first one today.  thanks. 

 

I think you've vastly underestimated Stark's project.  He's building 6 million sq ft of mixed office and residential.  I'd guess that a downtown apt is going to average 1,000 sq ft, so that's up to 6,000 units.  Less or more depending on the mix and actual average size.  So yeah, it's possible that we could get close to 25,000 if these projects happen.  That's a big if of course.

 

i agree that his vision is large and could include significant residential numbers.  however, i don't think there will be 6000 units ready and occupied by 2010.  i'd love to be wrong, but i also think it is important to be realistic. i think best case, they put 500 units up a year, so maybe 1500 units by 2010.  Plus the pesht vision is long term, i don't know of any developer who will wholesale put 3000 condos or apartments on the market at the same time in cleveland.

 

bottom line for me: there would still be great gains if we added another 5000 residents downtown.

I don't think that there will be 6,000 units ready and occupied by 2010 either.  But I was trying to account for the full number possible in Phase I according to Stark's plan.

We'll try to pin him down a little more re: number of units at the Levin College forum.

Just out of curiosity, what do you guys think of "Pesht" becoming a reality? Rating it from 0-10..where 0 is nothing gets built....to 10 where the entire idea gets built and really transforms downtown...where do you folks think this is at right now?

I'd say 6.

 

The reason is that everyone is pulling this project ... Stark, other property owners, the press, the foundations, the politicians, RTA, the Port, etc, etc.  With everyone agreeing on a common goal, I'm optimistic on the possibilities. 

I'd say a 7 for the same reasons sky stated. However, even if it's just the first phase "superblock", that alone will have an amazing affect on downtown.

I'm at about a 6.5. Stark has garnered a lot of support/fanfare for the project and has a strong local reputation for being able to deliver, both on the project and with retailers (even if he does put them out in the middle of nowhere). Perhaps most importantly, he has already acquired land or buy-in for a sizable chunk of prime-location space. What could stop or diminish this project? In my mind: a flood of residential hitting the downtown market in roughly the same timeframe; if the market gets particularly sluggish, Stark might step back from the efforts and focus on more promising projects (e.g. the Warrensville/Van Aken redevelopment); Stark withdrawing his efforts for another reason; property owners withdrawing from agreements with Stark; failure to secure public incentives that Stark would want before moving forward; or long delays due to Stark's desire to have control over the entire Phase 1 footprint before progressing further.

For the first phase, I'd say 9 or 10. Stark is about as doggedly passionate about this project as I've ever seen him. As for full build-out, I'd agree that 6 or 7 is more realistic. It requires the involvement of many players, depends on an unknown housing market in the future, and has other complications. But I think it ranks above a midpoint because Stark already has the support of landowners who control a significant amount of properties (Asher, Khouri/Kassouf, Port Authority, city of Cleveland). And, the message Stark is carrying to potential lenders and retailers appears to be winning them over.

Another fine event from the Levin College Forum:

 

A Vision for the Warehouse District

 

Tuesday, October 17th, 2006

4:00 p.m.-6:00 p.m.

 

Developer of the Eton Chagrin Boulevard and Crocker Park, Bob Stark will join us to discuss  his proposed 21-acre development to transform downtown Cleveland and the Warehouse District. With 1 million square feet of new street-level retail and 6 million square feet of new mixed residential and office space, this project would remake and brand a substantial portion of the central business district.

 

Mr. Stark is also exploring connecting downtown and the Lakefront by extending the Warehouse District street grid to the land just west of Cleveland Browns Stadium. This massive undertaking will require the collaboration of many public and private institutions and individuals including Cleveland, the Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Port Authority, Cleveland's foundation, and the Greater Cleveland Partnership. Mr. Stark lives by the challenge, "Make No Small Plans."

 

This forum will be an opportunity to hear Mr. Stark talk about his vision for Cleveland's future. Join panelists, Steven Fong, Dean of the School of Architecture and Environmental Design, Kent State University and Valarie McCall, Chief of Government Affairs, City of Cleveland in considering the exciting opportunities and potential challenges raised by such a large scale development.

 

For more info or to register, visit: http://urban.csuohio.edu/forum/events/10_17_06_warehouse.shtml

I'm going to ask him if he has any 'letters of intent' from any retailers.  I've been hearing whisperings of Macy's, Target and even of conversations with IKEA through the grapevine.    :yap:

IKEA? Cincy beat us there... Target?  isn't that going in Steelyard Commons?  Macy's...that would be cool!  Bring in some retail the ISN'T in the burbs, something new that can be found in other states, but not here yet...just my opinion

A trader joe's would be nice

IKEA? Cincy beat us there... Target?  isn't that going in Steelyard Commons?  Macy's...that would be cool!  Bring in some retail the ISN'T in the burbs, something new that can be found in other states, but not here yet...just my opinion

 

But what about the growing downtown population? Doesn't it make just as much sense to give them retail choices so they don't have to leave the city to go shopping?

I'm going to ask him if he has any 'letters of intent' from any retailers.  I've been hearing whisperings of Macy's, Target and even of conversations with IKEA through the grapevine.    :yap:

 

I'd welcome any of these, but I don't see any materializing in Pesht.  It wouldn't make sense for a ground-up Macy's with an excellent, traditional dept-store space sitting empty in Higbee's (or, for that matter, May's a few doors down -- one of current Macy's predecessors).  Target & Ikea are auto-dependent stores; hence their suburban-ish, big-box existence.  The Warehouse district, happily, is more ped friendly than car friendly, esp in any projected build-out like Pesht.  These stores could build parking garages, but I'm sure the thinking is more oriented toward residential parking as opposed to the huge number of parking spaces that would be needed for such retail stores.

^Well, Stark is an outside the box thinker.

 

I really did not mean that as a pun

^^ No question, this guy's going to shake things up.  It's an exciting time downtown.

i'm immeadiately calling BS on ikea, anyone who believes otherwise I will slap in the face.

In Crain's most reccent news I noticed a headline (that requires subscription) that reads 113 St. Clair Building bought by LA Parking giant. WHAT IS THIS? And what is that building?

Unit of L.A. parking goliath keeps Cleveland drive going

L&R makes fourth downtown purchase by gobbling up 113 St. Clair building

 

By STAN BULLARD

 

6:00 am, October 9, 2006

 

An affiliate of L&R Auto Parks, dubbed the largest parking lot owner in Los Angeles by the Los Angeles Times, is continuing its drive to buy downtown Cleveland properties.

 

Article Removed

i'm immeadiately calling BS on ikea, anyone who believes otherwise I will slap in the face.

 

from some folks I know in real estate (retail planning - one in Boston and one in Charlotte, NC) I have heard "rumblings" of Macy's store downtown as folks start to hear about Downtown Cleveland's resurgence (not my use of words) and that Stark is talking to lots of people.  Alghough, I have no first hand knowledge of what stores will be downtown, it seems as though he is trying to bring in traditional retailers and build unique retailers.  There might even be a memorial for your favorite locally created/born super hero.   :wink:

 

I agree, I don't see IKEA coming downtown.  I think a place like 55 street/ N. Marginal road would be a perfect location and could be catalyst for development in that area.

 

as a sidenote:  When i was in NC, some of the folks from our cable division had been in Cleveland and raved at how big it is and how much there was going on downtown.  Again, another example of how people from the "outside" the area view our city.

^^This shouldn't affect Stark's Phase One, right? Though still discouraging to have these evil California parking buggers in our midst.

i think that building is out of the "Pesht Zone"

With Skye's and MTS's rumors, I need another KJP super-fix.  Maybe Stark will have something to say at his presentation next week at Levin??

Sorry. I have no fix to offer. I've been out of the loop these last 10 days, trying to save my lovely little kitty Abby from a fast-moving, terminal disease called FIP. She succumbed to FIP on Wednesday. I guess my life wasn't hard enough because I'm now trying to quit smoking.

 

BTW, that 113 St. Clair building is on the east side of Ontario, across from David's restaurant and the Marriott. The article about the purchase probably shouldn't even be posted in this thread. Still an interesting development though.

^I've wondering where you were. Sorry to hear about your cat.

 

Good luck on kicking the habit!

no body likes a quiter KJP

Smoking is also bad for your spelling, Pope.