Why? Westfield isn't spelled wrong....for Westfield, Ohio.

 

i'm just imaging some random dictionary that recommends "westfield" for "westlake"

 

i dunno, it works in my alternative dictionary universe

The following is a compilation of tidbits of information from about a half-dozen sources... Cimperman, as chair of council's planning committee and council's rep to the City Planning Commission and Landmarks Commission has been meeting with Stark recently. My understanding is that it is in regards to an upcoming presentation he will make, probably to the Landmarks Commission. Any new construction in an historic district like the Warehouse District has to go before Landmarks. I don't yet know what will be in the presentation, but rumors are that it will be for phase one of Pesht and that Stark is shooting for making an announcement in the first quarter of 2007.

 

I say all of this with a big word of caution -- because it is from a number of different sources. But these rumors are like puzzle pieces that are fitting together enough so that a picture is beginning to emerge. There's still some missing pieces, so I don't yet have a full grasp of the complete picture.

I'll keep my fingers X'd...

God I hope this project is designed well...

Interesting rumors.  I really hope a announcement is coming!

 

I have a question about the economics of building on the sites that Stark has designated.  I know that the property owner paid big money for the land (near $100 psf).  Given these HIGH land costs, how in the world can Stark pull of a project that is affordable for a retailer to rent space or for a homeowner to purchase a condo??  Surely a retailer won't pay $50 psf when they can rent a great location for $20 and a homeowner won't buy at $500 psf when they can buy elsewhere Downtown for less than half that.  The raw land costs for The Avenue District, Stonebridge and Flats East Bank are all much lower.  My huntch has been that somehow this project will need to be radically subsidized by the government or else it can't happen.  For example, maybe the County Commissioners will come up with a way to use a small part of sales tax proceeds.   

 

KJP, have you asked Stark about this?

Yes, I have. Stark's answer is: density. No piece of land in the "Pesht" development will be exclusively parking (surface or decked). If you look at The Avenue District, the most densely developed part (with the 8- to 10-story loft condos) has buildings that ring the perimeter of a huge parking deck.

 

Instead, Stark's vision is to have the parking levels above the ground-floor retail and below the housing/offices. This stacking of uses, including parking, is revenue-intensive. Plus, Stark isn't buying any land. He's partnering with the existing property owners.

 

My understanding is that public funding will be limited to tax abatements for the buildings and TIFs for supportive infrastructure (streets, sidewalks, etc). The TIF could also include county sales taxes generated by the development, not just the usual property and income taxes.

No!  Not the dreaded "D" word!!!

 

:-)

Wouldn't City Council have to approve TIF's even in a limited application?

Yes, they would.

so, at this point nothing is official?

Correct.

c'mon stark, say something!  Or at least say when you're going to say something (I know I probaby got some people excited by refreshing this thread)

Update:  Don't expect Stark to release construction plans until the Port Authority releases its study of moving the port to the new island. If I recall, the port study was delayed until June. So it's probably going to be a few more months before we hear any details...

KJP< you know for sure though that he has plans ready? If so I'm guessing since you mentioned the Port they are involving the entire project not just the first phase right?

Sorry, but I don't have much more than that. The only other thing I was told is that Stark is holding back on his announcement because it requires county support for the port relocation. To me, that sounds like more than Phase One of Pesht, as Stark told me that he is seeking a TIF of multiple tax sources, including county sales taxes for "significant infrastructure" necessary to build Pesht.

^^ Patience is a virtue. I suppose. I have no information whatsoever, but you'd have to think that after being late last year's media cover boy, he'd have to have something brewing. But then again, maybe it's Maybelline.

he's presenting to a young professionals gathering sometime soon. honestly, Stark seems to be more bark than bite at this point. Is phase I dependent on having the port land available for development someday? If so, I'm a bit skeptical about phase I. Maybe I'm being too negative, but its been a long time since December 2005 when KJP first presented Stark's plans.

he's presenting to a young professionals gathering sometime soon. 

 

in my mail today:

 

  Professionals in the City

Dear Scott musky,

 

You are invited to join Northeast Ohio 's Emerging Leaders representing over 45+ organizations from across the region at the upcoming Professionals in the City Event as we ask:

 

"Who's behind the Region's Renaissance?"

 

In July 2006, the last event in the series was held at the Cleveland Botanical Gardens featuring Mayor Frank Jackson.  Over 1,000 diverse professionals were brought together from across the region to dialogue with the mayor about "Shaping the Future of our region. 

 

Join us in a contemporary discussion with a distinguished panel of major community stakeholders. Collectively they are investing Billions into Northeast Ohio.

                                                     

Panelists:

 

•Bob Stark, Leading the effort to bring mixed living and retail to downtown Cleveland

•Doug Price, Leading development of the West Bank of Flats and Stonebridge Project

•Steve Strnisha, Behind the development of the East Bank of the Flats

•Vickie Johnson, Leading the re-development of Fairfax Neighborhood

•Nate Zaremba, Heading the single-family residential housing in the Avenue District

•Ari Maron, Partner to MRN, Inc and key player of the East 4th St. development

 

This panel will discuss their outlook for the city and our region, their plans, projected timetables, and potential resurgence of city dwellers. They will also give insight into what "Cleveland's Re-development" really means and more importantly how this affects our region.

 

Moderated by Carolina Leid of Newsnet Channel 5

 

Professionals in the City, is a series of quarterly networking events with themed discussions featuring a Q & A with major community stakeholders. These events engage N.E. Ohio's Emerging Leaders.

 

For more information email us at:

[email protected]

 

 

 

And I will not be able to go.... dammit.

 

 

         

^I've usually been disappointed with these sorts of events. They are usually long on tedious details that have long since been obvious to us planning nerds on UO. I'd be interested to hear Strnisha speak, but most of the others will probably give us the same old song and dance.

You win.

Tickets are in your mailbox.

 

I went to the event at the Botanical Gardens last year. It was Ok.

Free food!

Would it hurt them to give a date and time, or do I need to show them my tax return?

Here you go:

 

 

There's no time on that invite! And they left off the public transit directions!! 

:shoot:

:shoot:

:shoot:

:shoot:

:shoot:

:shoot:

 

Thank you for posting, though :)

It starts at 6 pm.

yep, 6 pm. here's a link:

 

http://www.cleveland365.dreamhost.com/new/events/eventDetail.php?EventID=1266

he's presenting to a young professionals gathering sometime soon. honestly, Stark seems to be more bark than bite at this point. Is phase I dependent on having the port land available for development someday? If so, I'm a bit skeptical about phase I. Maybe I'm being too negative, but its been a long time since December 2005 when KJP first presented Stark's plans.

 

Though keep in mind KJP's (and our) curiosity might have induced Stark to talk before he otherwise might have. I don't think you can look at December 2005 as any kind of official announcement of Pesht -- it was still very much in the planning stages. In fact, we still haven't gotten any kind of official announcement.

 

I'm not worried about the Port cooperating; they seem to be behind Stark 110%. I'm a little more concerned about the TIF issue, which seems to be the bigger sticking point right now, and the holdout property owners at the two corners of the superblock. I remain convinced that Stark is still very serious about this project.

yep, 6 pm. here's a link:

 

http://www.cleveland365.dreamhost.com/new/events/eventDetail.php?EventID=1266

 

thanks......anyone else maybe going?

I would like to go..but do you need an invite?

JDD, I think you just need to register on the site - there's a form if you scroll down: http://www.cleveland365.dreamhost.com/new/events/eventDetail.php?EventID=1266

im going fo sure

Though keep in mind KJP's (and our) curiosity might have induced Stark to talk before he otherwise might have. I don't think you can look at December 2005 as any kind of official announcement of Pesht -- it was still very much in the planning stages. In fact, we still haven't gotten any kind of official announcement.

 

Keep in mind that Stark spoke to me willingly in 2005, unlike his involvement with Gray's Green (he was tight-lipped about that but confirmed his involvement, on the record). Stark could have told me in 2005 that "it's premature for me to say anything as negotiations are ongoing." I've heard that response countless times and honored developers' requests to keep something quiet until they are ready to release the news publicly. I don't want to be responsible for undermining a pending project (though some reporters don't care as long as they get the story first). So Stark was fine with me publishing his whole Pesht concept and even gave me the WHD rendering and the Pesht street plan. Frankly, I was surprised he was so open about it, given the preliminary nature of his plan.

And if I remember correctly, Stark gave these wild time estimates saying that he could have it finished by 2008.

I'm with 3231 on this one.  Sounds like alot of hype to me.  What I can't understand is why this project can't be phased in small increments with each successive phase getting larger.  At least get started on something to prove your credibility.

I don't think that Stark thinks that way. He thinks that the only way to 'save' downtown is to change downtown with huge projects.

I'm with 3231 on this one.  Sounds like alot of hype to me.  What I can't understand is why this project can't be phased in small increments with each successive phase getting larger.  At least get started on something to prove your credibility.

 

I absolutely agree with this.  The Maron's (MRN, Ltd) and Price-Corna have done this, and look at the huge success that both E. 4th and Stonebridge, respectively, have been... I think Stark is either blowing hot air or strategically trying to put himself out there to get financial backing because he doesn't have the juice to pull off even half of this project by himself.

And if I remember correctly, Stark gave these wild time estimates saying that he could have it finished by 2008.

 

Stark has been doing that for at least 20 years that I've been familiar with him. He first proposed the Promenade of Westlake in 1988 as an indoor retail complex with a large open-air atrium. Voters approved rezoning the land for retail based on the renderings. Instead, the Promenade was built as a strip center. He had a hard time living that one down. It followed him to the time when he sought to build Crocker Park, and requested that voters approve a PUD zoning classification for it. While he built what he promised (though a PUD doesn't allow much leeway!), he said he would build in a timeframe that was very aggressive and, as it turned out, not realistic. The first stores were opened around Thanksgiving of 2004 -- barely in time to meet the requirements of some of his financing.

 

So, for Stark to say he can open in 2008, that's his heart speaking for his brain. When Stark is questioned about his enthusiasm getting ahead of reality, he responds angrily and defensively. He now says he'd like to start building Pesht in 2008 and open the first buildings in 2009. It's not the first time he's gotten ahead of himself. It won't be the last.

I agree its WAY too early to start discounting Stark. He's said too much already to let this completely fall through. It would make him look REAL bad if he didn't get something built. 2008 sounds realistic even though thats next year.

 

If I understand it right he is not actually aquiring land, but rather working with land owners to get the project built right?

yep, 6 pm. here's a link:

 

http://www.cleveland365.dreamhost.com/new/events/eventDetail.php?EventID=1266

 

 

thanks......anyone else maybe going?

 

Count me in, I don't wanna miss this one

If I understand it right he is not actually aquiring land, but rather working with land owners to get the project built right?

 

Correct.

I'll stick w/ Stark as long as I can; I so want to believe in this guy.  We've got to get something going on this spot... it's been nearly 2 decades that's there's been this gaping 2 x 2 block hole separating our living room (Public Sq.) and our prime residential/entertainment district (WHD) after the Ameritrust Tower project fell apart... and that's ridiculous.

it's been nearly 2 decades that's there's been this gaping 2 x 2 block hole separating our living room (Public Sq.) and our prime residential/entertainment district (WHD) after the Ameritrust Tower project fell apart... and that's ridiculous.

 

Maybe, remember after the Key tower was complete the downtown office market was overbuilt and there wasn't as strong a demand for residential or retail. I'd rather the owner sit on the lot waiting for the right project, than throw up any old thing that doesn't do Public Square justice.

The Public Square parking lot has nothing to do with Pesht.

It so happens his project would directly fill in the hole between Public Square and the WHD.  What are you talking about?

Starks preject involves the parking lots in the warehouse district, but not the one that is directly across from the Northwest quadrant of Public Square. I think Dick Jacobs or somebody owns it. Either way in his plan this block is to be untouched by the Pesht project even when 100% complete.

Mov2Ohio is correct. The Public Square parking lot is owned by a company formed by the Richard E Jacobs Group. Jacobs is Stark's nemesis and is not part of Stark's plans. The Jacobs Group is working on its own to find a user for this property and has not engaged in any conversations with Stark. I don't think I can state it more clearly than that, clvlndr.

The Public Square parking lot has nothing to do with Pesht.

 

Let me try this one more time…. 

 

Nowhere did I state Bob Stark owns anything on Public Square.  I am fully aware that Ameritrust collapsed because Society Bank took over Ameritrust, some say by “greenmail” (I’m personally familiar with players in that scenario), making a 2nd super-tower bank building on the Square (along with what's now Key Bank which was completed around the time of Dick Jacob's Ameritrust site planned build) owned by the same bank superfluous, so it was not built even though the West Roadway land had been cleared around 1989-90 of the low-rise W. Roadway buildings that framed the NW quadrant of the Square. 

 

What I said is that a gaping 2 x 2 block space separates Public Sq and the WHD.  This includes the very block Stark plans build on in his planned Phase 1 -- bounded by W.6th, W.3rd, Superior, and St. Clair which, as I understand it, held similar warehouses (to the ones we now celebrate) that could have been adaptively reused -- which also happens to be adjacent to Ameritrust site and whose empty space combined with the planned Stark site, quite obviously creates a negative emptiness that necessarily, visually and actually, cuts the WHD off from vertex of downtown Cleveland: Public Square -- from the center of the Square one has a clear, diagonal 3-block view Chamberlain/Johson-Jobbers Block on W. 6th.. unaceptable.   So my clear implication, both here and elsewhere, is that someone, somehow, after nearly 20 years, needs to begin filling this vast, open superblock; and that Stark's promising, planned, high-density project on, what now, is 2-square blocks of surface parking, would at least begin do so…

 

… That’s all I said.  I hope that’s now clear to you, KJP.

 

Now that I know what a 2x2 block means to you. Thanks for taking the time and keystrokes to clarify.

^sure thing.

 

What I said is that a gaping 2 x 2 block space separates Public Sq and the WHD.  This includes the very block Stark plans build on in his planned Phase 1 -- bounded by W.6th, W.3rd, Superior, and St. Clair which, as I understand it, held similar warehouses (to the ones we now celebrate) that could have been adaptively reused --

 

anybody know when those all warehouse buildings came down and all the parking put in? at least the year? it was before the ameritrust tower western public square buildings were torn down wasnt it? thx if you know -- i cant remember.

 

 

What I said is that a gaping 2 x 2 block space separates Public Sq and the WHD.  This includes the very block Stark plans build on in his planned Phase 1 -- bounded by W.6th, W.3rd, Superior, and St. Clair which, as I understand it, held similar warehouses (to the ones we now celebrate) that could have been adaptively reused --

 

anybody know when those all warehouse buildings came down and all the parking put in? at least the year? it was before the ameritrust tower western public square buildings were torn down wasnt it? thx if you know -- i cant remember.

 

 

IIRC, they were torn down in piecemeal the six months to a year prior.  They were supposed to be used for staging of construction equipment then turned in to a parking garage that meshed with the new AT tower and the renovated TC.