My guess is that we will be in the E 4th, Gateway neighborhood.  Stark has had designs on that area....perhaps Dan Gilbert is involved in some fashion.

Scranton Road sounds likely now that you mention it, gotribe.  It fits the "Pest" analogy and is one of the arms of Stark's "Y". 

 

The other place that I was thinking is the lots in the Warehouse District.  There has been a great deal of ownership consolidation there in the past couple of years. 

 

The only other place where I could see getting enough land to really make the kind of splash that Stark wants is the Flats West Bank next to the Powerhouse or up at Davenport Bluffs/Muni Parking lot. 

 

The problem with either of those, or Scranton Peninsula is that they are all at the edge of Downtown and likely wouldn't be much more impactful than the East Bank or the Avenue District.

 

Of course, he could have some really off the wall idea that I hadn't considered.

I think Stark would consider the e4th Gateway area as "not big enough"

Can I ask KJP, how likely is this project to take shape and does it have a multitude of developers involved.  Basically, does this sound like a pipe dream.

Here are my thoughts on the Pesht analogy. After reading the synopsis posted by KJP, I think that the entire city of Cleveland is very similar to Pesht. I know the people on this board (me included) absolutely love Cleveland, but I think the the region and country have forgotten about us. Hopefully this project is so big and unique that Cleveland, like Pesht, will make people from outside the region want to re-make their lives in our city.

Since there is so much to describe, and lots of background to include, the full scale of this development won't become clear until the last of three parts to the series is published -- with one part per week. In fact, I'm finding that I'm having to leave out some things I'd really rather not, like that Stark considers Crocker Park a sort of laboratory experiment for what he's pursuing. And, he realizes that Crocker Park isn't new urbanism, but "new suburbanism." Perhaps I can get that into the third part of the series which I haven't written yet, but the subject for that part doesn't lend itself to that sort of discussion.

 

Now, one thing I regret:  I've teased you all and built this up so much that I fear many of you will be disappointed. I hope I haven't misled you all. But I am excited to reveal some of the details Wednesday evening, and I have no doubt that this will be a subject of discussion on this forum for a while.

As long as this is for real I don't think any of us will truly be disappointed, KJP.

 

Although now I admit I am REALLY curious because I can't picture what it could be that will take 3 articles for us to be able to understand.  It sounds like maybe it isn't a "development" in the conventional sense at all.

Yep...this sounds like KJP and Stark are going to go into further detail as to what Mr. Stark is PROPOSING be done with downtown, but not going to be talking about exactly what he is GOING to be doing.

 

Wait 'til next year...

 

:-)

 

Like I said above, this is cool, but its nothing to get too excited about.  Here's to hoping that Zaremba and Wolstein break ground soon.

 

Phase 1 is "project" with a property, price tag, and a pending opening date. The rest is "proposal."

That's quite exciting, I wasn't really expecting a phase one but rather just lofty proposals.

Here are my thoughts on the Pesht analogy. After reading the synopsis posted by KJP, I think that the entire city of Cleveland is very similar to Pesht. I know the people on this board (me included) absolutely love Cleveland, but I think the the region and country have forgotten about us. Hopefully this project is so big and unique that Cleveland, like Pesht, will make people from outside the region want to re-make their lives in our city.

 

Wolly...thats a great response.  I kinda thought the same thing while reading information on the internet.  However, the country hasn't forgotten about Cleveland - Cleveland forgot about Cleveland. 

 

When you live or travel outside of Cleveland you realize exactly how "nice", "wonderful", "great" etc the city is from people who frequently visit or do business in our city (proper).

 

Now I can't wait to see what's going on...

 

 

 

 

Wow!

 

More articulate commentary will follow later.

:-o

 

wow!

 

that looks intense!  and thats just phase 1...  given his past projects getting done and going for an area thats already hot and in the middle of downtown i really think some if not all of this will become reality.  this is really exciting

That makes total sense to build where there is momentum yet still open space.  Warehouse District is definitely the hot area of town and to fill in with buildings that still will provide parking is a very good idea.  This will create density numbers that developers look for in order to spin off of.  Whats cool is Wolstein's Flats project should be able to tie into the next phase as both projects move towards the lakefront.  This should challenge Forest City into doing something with Scranton.  I look forward to the next issues of this piece.

It sounds incredible.  My only worry is that the market would not be able to absorb this, the Flats, and the Avenue District all at the same time.  I worry more about all of the retail than the parking.  Perhaps Stark will be able to create the market.  That being said, I think this is the location most in need of this kind of development, followed by the Flats.  I hope they all get done!  I'm ready to sign up if I can afford it.

^I meant that I was more worried about the retail space than the housing, not the parking.

I hear you Ewoops and I agree - I think there's definitely a market for the housing, but I question the influx of that much new retail space. Now, if Stark is able to convince national retailers that downtown is a viable market and get them to return, I'll be impressed.

 

Overall though it looks great - perfectly scaled for the site.

OK....this sounds GREAT.  Earlier (I'm not sure if it was here or Cleveland.com) but an associate at starwood told me that they are working with a developer to build a Whotel and residence tower on a "large" vacant lot downtown (sidebar - he also told me they also need to build a large sheraton in downtown Cleveland, since they have no presence in Cleveland aside from the airport) .  That project must be tied into this one, so I have "strong" feeling this is more of a reality than just a plan.  I'm excited about Cleveland!!!!  YEAH!!

 

As people move into downtown, retail needs have to be met.  If you live in an urban area, you want to be able to walk outside your door and shop, eat, and live and take care of personal matters (doctors, taxes, personal care, etc.).  I think this will give national/international retailers back to our urban core.  DOWNTOWN is the neglected retail backbone of this city.  A healthy downtown resignates throughout the region.  Downtown will regain its "miracle mile", "magnificent mile", "rodeo drive", etc.

 

As audioslave noted.  What will the RAT's do??  I think - Nothing!  However, if they were to build one hell of a luxury building atop of their TC parking deck.  The city would change the city like never before!  although...the RATs doing anything in their "own backyard" is a pipedream...make that a wet dream.  :-o

Very nice!

 

Okay...I'm excited...however, does "...hopes to open in 2008." mean the first building will be up by then or does it mean construction begins that year?

 

 

Well hopefully the retail would be all those things that I've heard that downtown residents still need.  A couple more casual dinning places, movie rental, book store; as well as be an extension to the Warehouse district / New East Bank as a regional nightlife attraction.  Wish the rendering didn't have all the twinkling lights.  It would be really cool if instead of a Sheraton that they'd put a W Hotel (a sister brand to Sheraton), but very unlikely.  That of course assuming the whole hotel thing is for real to begin with.

Very nice!

 

Okay...I'm excited...however, does "...hopes to open in 2008." mean the first building will be up by then or does it mean construction begins that year?

 

 

 

My best guess is that open means that move in day will be sometime in 2008.

 

If phase 1 of this project moves forward and materializes, I think that this will truely transform downtown Cleveland. I can't wait until the final two articles are available.

 

KJP, is there any news as to when construction is going to start? I am assuming that if they want to open in 2008, construction would have to begin sometime this year ('06)

Did anyone else notice that the rendering fails to include the Pinnacle building?  :->

Now that I've posted this first article, I'll give you a little history. During the election campaign, I heard that there was something afoot for this block in the Warehouse Distrct (hence, the reason why I took that picture of the parking lots while there were still leaves on the trees!). I was told that someone named Asher had already bought up most of the parcels in that block, and that would make it easier for its development to occur. But when I checked the auditor's Web site, it showed three or four companies had acquired the land in December 2004. I was disappointed.

 

But I cross-checked the owners of those companies on the Secretary of State's website and found they were all the same -- T.J. Asher. The Ashers are big in commercial real estate development nationwide and in Canada, but T.J. Asher has been getting into residential development lately, namely with a luxury cluster housing project in Bentleyville. That project has proven to be a bit controversial (specifically, some earth-moving has nearby residents concerned), with some critical media articles done, including by Sun (not me!), and thus is probably why he never called me back! Asher also is on the downtown Business Improvement District steering committee, chaired by John Carney who is Stark's partner in building and financing Crocker Park. See the linkages emerging here? Before I became aware of Stark's involvement in all of this, I found an article in the Plain Dealer from about a year ago which had both Stark and Asher mentioned in it, in which they talked about the need to develop the surface parking lots in the Warehouse District. This whole thing has been brewing for a while.

 

Since Asher hadn't yet acquired the last three parcels in that block, I held off on reporting the story. One of the three parcels has an old parking deck on it, and is owned by several partners, including the estate of Irving Chelm and another guy named Ed Kowit. The parking deck has been on the market before and, in the early 1990s, was the site for a 15-story office building designed by Richard Fleischman that got preliminary approval from the city. The office market soured and the plans were scrapped. Another parcel is within the parking deck, and was the former Hoty's restaurant, now a check-cashing business. It is owned by Ed Kowit. I spoke to Kowit, and he said he hasn't been approached by Stark or Asher yet.

 

That also disappointed me, but then I recalled that Wolstein didn't have all the properties in pocket for the Flats East Bank proposal, and at least one owner (was it Samsel?) hadn't been approached by the time that project made the papers. I guess I was hoping all these owners were at least in negotiations -- and then again, perhaps they are and didn't want to say publicly!

 

More than a month ago, someone (I won't mention his name unless he says it's OK) tipped me off that Stark was working on something big. Since I covered Westlake for nine years until this past fall, when I began covering downtown, I was very familiar with Stark (and Carney) as he was with me. I called him but he didn't want to explain his plans over the phone. He wanted to set up a meeting so he could show it to me visually. I also did other interviews with certain officials, which will be part of the next two articles, and are essential pieces of this overall plan. Stark confirmed he was working with Asher and had no problems with the news of the Warehouse District development being publicized. I was extremely glad to get that rendering from him, plus another that will be part of the second article.

 

And, yes, it is Stark's intention to open for occupancy most of, if not the entire block in the Warehouse District in 2008. Like I said in the article, however, his plans have not yet been submitted to the WHD's design review committee, which must happen before it goes to the City Planning Commission. One downside is that Tom Yablonski (WHD director) was a bit perturbed that I, as a member of the media, had seen a rendering of Stark's proposal before he had. That's not good protocol. But he seemed to ease up when he learned it was to be built on Asher's properties, and Asher had already met with Yablonski to discuss development plans for that block.

 

Anyway, that's how this whole thing fell into place. I will get into the market aspects, retail ratios and more of the "Pesht" part of this thing in the next installment.

 

I'm glad you all find this exciting, just as I do. The funny thing is, people at the office keep asking me if I think this project will happen! If I knew that, I wouldn't be working at Sun Newspapers, or any newspaper for that matter. I'd be sitting on a beach, living off stock dividends.

Did anyone else notice that the rendering fails to include the Pinnacle building?  :->

 

Don't get too hung up on stuff like that. I saw one rendering developed for Stark that didn't include the historic Johnson Block, at the SW corner of W.6th and St. Clair; nor did it have John Carney's Water Street Apartments. Neither of those can be demolished, as they are protected historic buildings. When I asked Carney about it, he laughed and said that the architectural firm made a bit of an oversight.

Well, regarding FCE:  Their lack of presence in developing around here is only going to seem more and more odd (and pressure on them more justified) as these projects move forward.  We now have three fairly ambitious projects totalling over $1.2 billion dollars worth from three developers.  It's going to sound more and more like Forest City is simply being "party poopers" in this period of expansion.  Instead of seeming like whiny plaintive nobodies, we can start actively taunting them...  :yap: Cranes galore all around and the community all asking"Where you at Forest City?" 

 

I'm curious as to this $1 billion dollar price tag.  The space looks to be not so much larger than the Avenue District over at E. 12th. which was tagged at $100-$200 million, right?

 

In any case, this is fantastic.  I let out a "booyeah" as I read about these plans and nearly soiled myself at the phrase "Lakefront plan on steroids."  Can't wait to read more.  Well done KJP.

BTW, Congratulations on breaking a big story, KJP!

 

Is Stark planning on any public meetings about the project? 

Is Stark planning on any public meetings about the project? 

 

Not that I'm aware of.

 

About FCE, one thing Stark said to me is he can take some risks that stockholder-owned companies like FCE cannot. Yet, Stark isn't stupid. He spreads the risk with partner firms who usually are not stockholder owned either.

Well, regarding FCE:  Their lack of presence in developing around here is only going to seem more and more odd (and pressure on them more justified) as these projects move forward.  We now have three fairly ambitious projects totalling over $1.2 billion dollars worth from three developers.  It's going to sound more and more like Forest City is simply being "party poopers" in this period of expansion.  What's the problem?

 

I'm curious as to where this $1 billion dollar price tag comes from.  The space this seems to take looks to be not so much larger than the Avenue District over at E. 12th. which was tagged at $100-$200 million, right?

 

In any case, this is fantastic.  I let out a "booyeah" as I read about these plans and nearly soiled myself at the phrase "Lakefront plan on steroids."  Can't wait to read more.

 

Well, maybe FCE will see the profit in finally doing the Tower City Riverview phase and Scranton Peninsula if alot of people come back Downtown to see Stark's new city within a city.

 

I too am trying to figure out how this becomes a billion dollar redevelopment.  It sounds like the buildings could be built alot taller than the renderings show- 250 feet, which comes out to somewhere in the 25 story range.  If the buildings are built to the height shown in the renderings, then the amount of development would actually be fairly similar to what is going on at the Avenue District, maybe a little denser.  The project is also smaller in area than Wolstein's development with what seems to be a slightly higher density, and requires less site prep and infrastructure improvements.

 

Personally, I'd like to see the development start with the 250 ft towers along Superior and W. 3rd and then step down to 4-8 stories along W. 6th and St. Clair Ave in order to match the existing context.  If Stark needs more density to make it work, maybe he could be given a density bonus along the Superior and W. 3rd frontages to build some real high rises.

 

KJP, do you have numbers on how many residential units Stark wants to build?  Or is that in next weeks installment? :wink:

The total, added, estimated residential population of the WHD and "Pesht" will be part of the second article. You will need to fasten your seat belts for that number.

 

I never really took a hard look at that $1 billion figure, and it's my fault for taking it at face value. Upon further review, I think Stark is saying that building on all 21 acres of parking lots in the WHD would have a price tag of $1 billion. But when he pointed to his street rendering, he pointed to that one block in the WHD and said "This alone is $1 billion. You can imagine what kind of investment the whole thing would represent" referring to "Pesht" as well.

 

One thing I wasn't able to get into in that article, and probably won't get into until I write follow-up articles in the coming months, is that Asher owns other properties in the Warehouse District. He's got the parking lot at the NW corner of W.3rd and St. Clair, and I seem to recall he's got one on W.4th, north of St. Clair. The rendering I posted shows more than just the block through which Frankfort runs, and isn't even centered on that block, but I don't know if that means anything.

 

You may recall that a Los Angeles-based company bought the second-largest swath of parking in the WHD, southeast of the West 9th/St. Clair intersection, and was pretty far along in planning for an 11-story block of for-sale housing there. If I remember right, a holdout property owner wanted an obscene amount of money for his parking lot, and it killed the project.

 

When I asked Stark what he would do if a property owner doesn't sell, he said "we'll make them partners." But don't be surprised if the port authority gets involved in this development, just as it has with the Flats East Bank project. It does have eminent domain powers, and parking lots can be considered as blight.

 

One more thing: Stark got voter approval for rezoning in November 2000 for Crocker Park. He opened most of the downtown block in late 2004, early 2005. Yet, for Crocker Park, he had to clear the 75-acre site, grade it, install all the sewers, utilities and streets before he could begin construction on buildings. None of that is required in the Warehouse District before construction can begin. Even rezoning isn't required, but a number of variances from the planning commission and approvals from the Landmarks Commission will be needed. Also, the block surrounded by W.3rd, W.6th, Superior and St. Clair is outside the historic district boundary established for the WHD which will simplify the approvals process for Stark et al.

Well hopefully the retail would be all those things that I've heard that downtown residents still need.  A couple more casual dinning places, movie rental, book store; as well as be an extension to the Warehouse district / New East Bank as a regional nightlife attraction.  Wish the rendering didn't have all the twinkling lights.  It would be really cool if instead of a Sheraton that they'd put a W Hotel (a sister brand to Sheraton), but very unlikely.  That of course assuming the whole hotel thing is for real to begin with.

 

My sources are pretty reliable.  they want a W hotel in the warehouse district because of the "residencies" componet of the project and the "whatever" campaign fits into the WHD marketing.  Starwood is trying to make a return to the cleveland market.  on the sidenote, it was Starwood that approached FCE about including the Westin at TC.  They also want to build a sheraton towers near the stadium (which stadium one wasn't clear - however, I'm guessing gateway since HWD and Gateway are run by the same group) and a property near the museums.  However, plans change.  Another reason they are trying to build is that Hilton (a hotel brand that also has little representation in the Cleveland market and owns the Conrad, Hilton, Doubletree, Embassy Suites) is hunting for a property to build a Hilton and/or Conrad (the last two conrads built also included residencies) in downtown.

 

I can't wait to here what the projected population/unit count will be.  I think 15 story buildings will fit in nicely.

 

I do have question....what about that damn parking lot on Public Square?

That "damn lot" is some of the most expensive urban real estate between NYC and Chicago. I'd love to see it filled but I think that it will take more than a 15-story building to develop it. Honestly though - even seeing Phase 1 happen will have a tremendous effect by breaking up the swath of parking lots. It'll also trigger interest and that's when I think we could see something big happen there.

 

With apologies to Bialosky and KJP, I've labeled the rendering so we have a better idea of what we're seeing:

From the renderings it looks like this development will shoehorn into the WHD nicely, since the taller buildings seem to be on Superior and slope down as you go further north.

 

KJP, is Stark usually overoptimistic about construction dates?  When did he originally tag Crocker Park to open up?

 

As for the $1Billion, I really think that could be right, those are some pretty large buildings going up, and the area looks much larger than the Avenue's district.

 

So, if 2008 is the move in date, construction has to happen this year, this winter!

 

Hell, I am going to quit my job and figure out a way to be a construction sub-contractor.  With ALL of the projects going on in Cleveland, there will not be enough construction workers to keep up!  (what a horrible problem :-) )

Oh no!  We are going to lose the "titanic" building!

:roll:

Hey KJP, is "Pesht" the official name for the project?

In the Historic Warehouse District's revised masterplan (2002), it proposes for the block surrounded by W.3rd, W.6th, Superior and St. Clair (they call it Block 8 ) five buildings, a mid-block parking deck, plus an underground parking deck for an office building in the adjacent "Jacobs Block" on Public Square.

 

Here is a breakdown of their proposal, per building:

> 8 story building with five facing St. Clair, 346 housing units, 50,500 square feet of retail, 275 structured parking spaces;

> three more buildings (plus interior parking deck) within block, 20 stories, 12 stories, and 7 stories with 5 facing the street, 242 total housing units, 9,100 square feet of retail, 760 structured parking spaces;

> Hotel facing Superior, 10 stories, 430 hotel rooms, 66,000 square feet of meeting rooms, 59,800 square feet of retail.

> Underground parking deck off Superior for office building in neighboring "Jacobs Block" and other uses - 1,600 parking spaces.

 

The plan also has quite a few graphics, which I'll scan and post later.

 

As for Stark and his anticipated opening dates, I don't remember what they were for Crocker Park when he first proposed it. But I do remember he hoped to have the whole thing done (including the townhouses surrounding the downtown block) by 2007. If he wants to have this Warehouse District project opened by 2008, I suspect he would have to get city approvals sometime in 2006.

Hey KJP, is "Pesht" the official name for the project?

 

That's just what Stark unofficially calls what he has in mind for the lakefront. He has no name for the WHD project, and the only tag line shown on the architectural renderings was "Y Cleveland - Building Downtown Up"

In the Historic Warehouse District's revised masterplan (2002), it proposes for the block surrounded by W.3rd, W.6th, Superior and St. Clair (they call it Block 8 ) five buildings, a mid-block parking deck, plus an underground parking deck for an office building in the adjacent "Jacobs Block" on Public Square.

 

Here is a breakdown of their proposal, per building:

> 8 story building with five facing St. Clair, 346 housing units, 50,500 square feet of retail, 275 structured parking spaces;

> three more buildings (plus interior parking deck) within block, 20 stories, 12 stories, and 7 stories with 5 facing the street, 242 total housing units, 9,100 square feet of retail, 760 structured parking spaces;

> Hotel facing Superior, 10 stories, 430 hotel rooms, 66,000 square feet of meeting rooms, 59,800 square feet of retail.

> Underground parking deck off Superior for office building in neighboring "Jacobs Block" and other uses - 1,600 parking spaces.

The plan also has quite a few graphics, which I'll scan and post later.

 

As for Stark and his anticipated opening dates, I don't remember what they were for Crocker Park when he first proposed it. But I do remember he hoped to have the whole thing done (including the townhouses surrounding the downtown block) by 2007. If he wants to have this Warehouse District project opened by 2008, I suspect he would have to get city approvals sometime in 2006.

 

I knew this was too good to be true!  The dreaded parking space "deck".  The project should be the catalyst for Subway transportation as well, getting people to WALK or USE public transportation, which puts clevelanders to work.  argh!!!! :x  This is the perfect opportunity to rebuiild subway tracks under the detroit-superior bridge connect downtown with Ohio City & the west Bank of the Flats.  The old Shaker Rapid Station is right at the corner of Prospect/Superior...it's not rocket science!

When I asked Stark what he would do if a property owner doesn't sell, he said "we'll make them partners."

 

Oh good, that makes me feel better. Those unacquired parcels are the one part of this plan that make me a bit uneasy. And with the Port likely to use eminent domain for Flats East, I can see them balking at using it as well in the Warehouse District. They'd start to look like real land-grabbers. And in the current political climate, eminent domain is a sensitive issue anyway.

So the partnership idea sounds good.

 

KJP, thanks for all your hard work on this exciting story!

I knew this was too good to be true!  The dreaded parking space "deck". 

 

my 2 ¢,

 

That's the Warehouse District's plans, not Stark's, or at least to my knowledge it isn't.

 

To make this plan marketable to lenders, he's got to have a significant parking component. But Stark was VERY interested to learn about the Lake Shore Electric Inc.'s (former Trolleyville USA) plans for a heritage trolley circulator downtown. I passed along the contact info to him.

Down here in Columbus, we can only hope that Casto or someone can put together something this great to take the place of City Center.  Stark has some great quotes about new urbanism in that write-up.  I really hope that the pendulum has swung.  Nice job KJP!

Hey KJP...first off THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THE STORY AND ANSWERING ALL OF THESE QUESTIONS!!!!!!!!

 

in that spirit, I know from the earlier statements by Stark his plans seemend to depend on the convention center being built behind Tower City.  Is that the case?  Did you two discuss the convention center?

KJP, thanks for all of the info!  I'd been looking forward to the "big announcement" for a couple of weeks and definitely was not let-down.  I'm really looking forward to part two now.  Thanks for all of your hard work and congrats on breaking the big story.

Hey KJP...first off THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THE STORY AND ANSWERING ALL OF THESE QUESTIONS!!!!!!!!

 

in that spirit, I know from the earlier statements by Stark his plans seemend to depend on the convention center being built behind Tower City.  Is that the case?  Did you two discuss the convention center?

 

I know Stark is in favor of the TC site, but I don't see why it would be necessary for his project to go forward.  Either way, the Convention Center is equidistant to Stark's property.  And if the Convention Center is connected to TC, then the convention goers will be more likely to dine and shop there than at his development.  If it is redeveloped at the current site, Stark's property will be the closest major retail and restaurant location.

Discussion of the convention center never came up. Some of his wide-view renderings that show the Tower City area, shows the convention center located there -- or at least it's some structure large enough that I couldn't imagine it being anything else!

I saw Stark on Feagler's crappy PBS show a few weeks ago talking about the Pesht concept, and I must say that BS(bob stark) made the whole thing seem as though it was only a concept he was beginning to unhatch. I like the way this man operates. He was on the show with Ronayne and Maron, and in a sense tore them both a new one. R&M argued that Cleveland didn't necessarily need a Pesht to tip Cleveland's fortunes in a positive direction. He asked Ari Maron how long it took him to get the 4th St. project to the point at which it is today; the answer was 10 years! That is an insane amount of time, considering the project still isn't 100% complete/occupied, and it's relatively small scale.

Completely irrealted to my PBS rant, is a question for you, KJP. What significance does Crocker Park's $100 long-term Prudential loan play in freeing up assets to plow into other "high-risk" projects? It is my understanding that US Bank had provided a short-term construction loan, which usually will cost more than long-term loans due to the high risk of building and leasing new developments. Now, of course financial matters of Bob Stark are private, but this does in a way free him up of probably considerable debt on Crocker Park, no?

I think the $100 million Prudential loan is significant, foremost because it is the largest such long-term loan given in this area for a new project. But, secondly, Stark is building a solid track record, which lenders naturally look for when issuing new debt. In the second article, you'll read the occupancy rate for Crocker Park and the leasing rates in comparison to the immediate market. They're pretty significant figures.

 

This still is all a concept for Stark. Until he submits a plan to the city, it really is just that, a concept. He made his pitch to Frank Jackson only last week (I think it was on 21st or 22nd), though Cimperman has seen Stark's plans. To my knowledge, he's the only one on the City Planning Commission who has.

 

BTW, welcome to the forum, unbriacone!

Thanks for the reply KJP, and thanks for the welcome. I've been reading the Forum for months but have until now been too lazy to post anything. I realize it's still only a concept and to be perfectly honest, won't be surprised if in true Cleveland fashion it becomes just another blueprint collecting dust in the Planning Commission Archive. What is more significant to me is the fact that people like Stark and Ferchill(he bought the Galleria, correct?) are trying to shake up the comatose old money developers of the city.

  I think Cleveland would be better off if FCE were to up and leave to more monied pastures. They are neglecting Cleveland's greatest asset, and they have been since they redeveloped it. How could someone expect Tower City to increase sales each passing year when the property itself shows no signs of dynamism. Downtown didn't need a mall. It was intended to be a cash cow solely for FCE. If they left the complex and put it up for sale, developers would be crawling out of the woodwork to swoop it up. So much potential and yet FCE seems to almost disdain the property. Why haven't they developed Collision Bend? Why didn't they start to assemble land around the DOZENS of Rapid stations that feed into their property? Why wouldn't they develop housing within the TC complex and on the grounds that surround it?

  I'll invite you all to the Good Riddance Miller Family Party i throw the day they decide to leave town. Cause it's coming.

Thanks for the reply KJP, and thanks for the welcome. I've been reading the Forum for months but have until now been too lazy to post anything. I realize it's still only a concept and to be perfectly honest, won't be surprised if in true Cleveland fashion it becomes just another blueprint collecting dust in the Planning Commission Archive. What is more significant to me is the fact that people like Stark and Ferchill(he bought the Galleria, correct?) are trying to shake up the comatose old money developers of the city.

   I think Cleveland would be better off if FCE were to up and leave to more monied pastures. They are neglecting Cleveland's greatest asset, and they have been since they redeveloped it. How could someone expect Tower City to increase sales each passing year when the property itself shows no signs of dynamism. Downtown didn't need a mall. It was intended to be a cash cow solely for FCE. If they left the complex and put it up for sale, developers would be crawling out of the woodwork to swoop it up. So much potential and yet FCE seems to almost disdain the property. Why haven't they developed Collision Bend? Why didn't they start to assemble land around the DOZENS of Rapid stations that feed into their property? Why wouldn't they develop housing within the TC complex and on the grounds that surround it?

  I'll invite you all to the Good Riddance Miller Family Party i throw the day they decide to leave town. Cause it's coming.

 

whoa!  I like you!!!  the anger!  yes!!!  :whip:

so i got dibs on those numbered tabs that hang across the current parking lot ocean around there. they are going to hang in my upcoming new lounge on west 3rd. it will be called "the parking lot" and the catchprases will be, "come on in and park it" and "no parking on the dancefloor" and "be good or get your asphalt outta here." lol -- how nice would it be to finally have that embarrassing black tar sea parted !!!

Overall this is great for Cleveland.  The more downtown housing the better.  More attention creates more excitement and more people start to look at downtown as a viable option for them.  Stark knows how to attract retailers, which is desparately needed Downtown.  Not sure he knows how to build condos....maybe he'll sub it out like he did at Crocker Park.  His connections with retailers will open doors for The Avenue District's retail and Euclid Ave.  The one thing I can't see is Stark being able to be fully operational in 2008.  Lots of hoops to jump through with the Port Authority and the city, but the first shovel in the ground in '08 can happen.