Hah, that's cute. Little Tetris blocks :)

Only a glimpse to be sure, but interesting to see some of the massings look to be the height of 55 Public Square (300 ft.).

I love that Crocker Park is listed as one of their ~urban developments~.

vulpster cool link -- its exciting to see the preliminary massings & also to see them publicized on the site so prominently like that.

So I was downtown this morning for my usual pickup of police reports at the Justice Center and parked on Frankfort. Parked behind me was a pickup truck with Stark's logo on it. On the other side of the fence in the parking south of Frankfort were two trucks with "EDP Consultants" on the sides. The occupants of all the trucks were conversing. EDP Consultants is a geotechnical engineering firm -- http://www.edpconsultants.com/ (they also do forensic studies - perhaps they were really there to investigate the crime that was committed years ago when the Powerblock was demolished!).

 

This update brought to you by another Cleveland urban geek who is starving for news on this project!

^what kind of listening devices did you plant on the trucks? 

Only a glimpse to be sure, but interesting to see some of the massings look to be the height of 55 Public Square (300 ft.).

 

Very interesting. Wonder if that's just a rough idea type of thing, or an actual part of the plan that will go forward.

At one point in the late 80s, the southern half of the superblock was zoned for twin 40-story towers which would have been built for First Union (now Wachovia). I'd be curious to see if that zoning still applies.

is that building in the rendering that looks slightly taller than 55 public square the lot on public square? it looks like it from that angle but i cant tell. i hope not cuz a new tallest belongs on public square when that eventually happens.

is that building in the rendering that looks slightly taller than 55 public square the lot on public square? it looks like it from that angle but i cant tell. i hope not cuz a new tallest belongs on public square when that eventually happens.

 

No! The only thing that PS lot has in common with this project is that they both border West 3rd street. Pesht to the West and the PS lot to the East.

Just got off the phone with someone from Stark... Here's the skinny on the Ernst & Young building rendering. None of us we're supposed to see that! It was accidentally left out in public view. But the source would neither confirm nor deny whether Ernst & Young is part of the plan. When I asked about the geotechnical survey crews on site, I said there must be something big coming. His response -- "Greater Cleveland has never seen anything like it. It will be Crocker Park on steroids."

 

 

 

 

 

^so 10 story parking garages and two cheesecake factories?

 

but seriously E&Y seems to of recent to be pushing for more "visible" office space, see below

 

http://www.neumannsmith.com/IMAGES%20SEPT%202006/ONE%20KENNEDY%20LR-6022-03%20400x300.jpg

"None of us we're supposed to see that! It was accidentally left out in public view."

 

Haha!!! Awesome!  :lol: :banger: :lol:

 

 

Pope you're right.  There building in NYC are all very visible and their building an new office in Atlanta (creating a huge hole in ATLs tallest - on top of that it will be ATLs third major blow as all of their downtown skyscrapers have lost major tenants).

 

I would love to see a E&Y anchor in a building in pesht!

 

Pope, what city is that E&Y office in?

^EDIT:  MTS beat me to it.  But I also agree re: EY.  They seem to be the most of keen of the Big 4 to put their name/logo on their buildings.

Pope, what city is that E&Y office in?

 

you don't recognize the penobscot?

 

its okay, its detroit, foreground is campus martius.

This thread gets me more excited than any other when good news comes out.

I like the fact that they have to keep things out of their windows because some Cleveland Freak might see something and post it on the internet.  And so should Stark...

Timeline for an announcement?

Timeline for an announcement?

 

Annoucement hell.we already get the stuff,,,we have insider info

I love how I'm negatively and positvely flustered everytime I read something on UO!!!  So many things going on! 

^so 10 story parking garages and two cheesecake factories?

 

 

I was thinking along the same lines when he uttered the quote!

 

Timeline for an announcement?

 

Might get a sneak-peak in about a month. Stark is off to Alaska, Seattle and Portland for the next few weeks.

Yeah, the "Crocker Park on steroids" comment probably won't instill alot of confidence in the folks on this board, but with the general populace I think it will have a more positive connotation.

way to go uo spys lol! and congrats on the scoop kjp.

 

now they got us all buzzed and wary at the same time.

 

hopefully by throwing out "crocker park" they strictly mean in terms of project size and not in mega-lifestyle mall connotations.

I'm hoping he meant Crockers housing and office component on 'roids. The retail at Crocker would be good in downtown, but hopefully he can get a mix thats better than whats at that mall/lifestyle center/subdivision.

While there is a surplus of retail in the suburbs, it's really lacking in the city. So if you put a large amount of it in the Warehouse District (I'm talking big things like a Target, Marshall's, full service grocery, etc.), it's going to get used by residents from all over the city who will access it via all the transit converging at Public Square. The retail won't just be used by downtown residents who complain there isn't enough basic stuff to meet their needs for clothing, food, hardware, toiletries, videos, and other things they must travel to the suburbs to get.

KJP, then what went wrong with Tower City and the Galleria? Why did those projects largely fail (at least, to the degree of success that they both started with) and this project won't? I'm not asking with cynicism .. I'm honestly just wondering.

 

Man, I remember Tower City and the Galleria back in the day. Both had fantastic stores that the Cleveland area never saw before. But now both are dead urban malls. I wish they would return to their former glory. At least Tower City. That place is gorgeous.

I wouldn't call either one a dead mall. Underperforming? Yes. The Galleria was pretty moribund a few years ago, but Tower City never sank to the depths that the Galleria sank. It seems the Galleria is doing better these days, with a mix of offices and retail.

 

But to get to your question as to why aren't they doing great? Check out a population density map of Cleveland sometime. Then cross-reference that with average household income data. Now some people from the suburbs were shopping at Tower City when it first opened, but the overbuilding of retail in the suburbs (Beachwood Place, Legacy Village, etc) spread the shopping dollars too thin for Tower City to survive off downtown and near-downtown population.

 

That's why Stark is proposing a massive development, with lots of residential, to ensure there is a market for retailers. Otherwise, he says we'll be stuck in a chicken-and-egg situation with potential downtown retailers waiting for downtown residents to come before building, and potential downtown residents waiting for more retail before they buy.

Hmm. Great point. I forget about the whole residential aspect. I'm also glad that he's not only focused on retail, but that it will be a mix of residential, retail and offices.

 

I knew I would get that comment regarding Tower City and the Galleria, by the way. :) I guess I'm just disappointed in knowing the heights from which they've fallen. I would love to see them returned to that. I just don't know if downtown can support two malls with similar types of clientele again, so it's probably good that at least one of them is evolving according to what is needed downtown.

Another highly important distinction is that retailers at the Avenue at Tower City and the Galleria have to be intentionally sought out, as they are tucked away in buildings with little street presence and are spatially dislocated from residential pockets (although E. 4th and the Park Building are closing the gap with Tower City). Pesht, meanwhile, intends to have highly-visible, highly-accessible ground-level retail and lies directly adjacent to a relatively large and relatively affluent residential population.

 

I think in general, we can anticipate that retail throughout downtown should improve in the next few years, what with a dramatically growing downtown population (including a much larger concentration of owners v. renters), as well as notable in-movement/buzz in Tremont, Ohio City, Detroit Shoreway and Asiatown.

I think the Galleria was ill conceived to begin with.  It is too isolated from the rest of downtown's retail, and not large enough to be a draw on its own, at least not once the novelty of it wore off. 

 

The biggest problem TC has is lack of an anchor or two, or three.  Dillard's bought out Higbee's and then dithered forever and treated the TC store as a firesale outlet.  They don't know how to do downtown retail properly.  Security is also a major issue at TC.  Theft is through the roof, and panhandling, fights, and other disorderly conduct aren't unheard of, to put it mildly.  All of that and FCE seems convinced that the only way to save their mall is with massive infusions of public money.

(including a much larger concentration of owners v. renters)

 

Bah!  Downtown's renters are as affluent as many reasonably upscale suburb's homeowners.

great points.

 

But as discussed in the retail thread, the change in the level of stores is NOT entirely Tower Cities fault.

 

Barney's, Joan & David, Calvin Klein, Warner Bros. etc. all went into bankruptcy or reorganization and downsized the number of stores.  Gucci overexpanded and new management closed stores others like Politix & Higbees (I refuse to use the "D" word) closed all together.

 

When TC opened, there were not as many residents downtown or the adjacent neighborhoods as there are now.

 

Today - New stores in TC, along Euclid avenue and in the WHD would be welcomed and  would have a greater and more stable customer base.

Bah!  Downtown's renters are as affluent as many reasonably upscale suburb's homeowners.

 

Should have explained more fully. I meant that owners might increase the palatibility for retailers interested in opening a store or continuing operations, given that they represent a longer-term commitment to the neighborhood than renters (even though many renters are in fact long-term residents) and therefore slightly less risk associated with upturns and downturns in the economy. They also represent an opportunity for new retail demographics (e.g. products that cater to a slightly older audience) and for owner-focused products (e.g. home improvement stores that might not be as appealing to someone who do not own their living space). Plus, even though downtown's renters are relatively affluent, buyers represent an even more affluent niche.

I think the Galleria was ill conceived to begin with.  It is too isolated from the rest of downtown's retail, and not large enough to be a draw on its own, at least not once the novelty of it wore off. 

 

i think it's important to note that the galleria project was conceived as stage 1 of a bigger plan.  the rest of the area of the bluffs and where the avenue district is finally developing (40 years later), was slated to be part of a large urban renewal project.  instead, downtown just sort of died right at e12 and nothing has happened for a number of years.

 

it's a risk that any developer is taking if the market doesn't already exist.  I'm sure forest city wasn't planning on having surface lots surround its mall either.

The Galleria wasn't part of the Erieview urban renewal project, which began in the late-1950s, early 1960s. The Galleria opened in 1987. Now Jacobs may have been hoping that the Galleria would benefit from Kassouf's emerging plan for developing housing in the Davenport Bluffs area and was still an active project in the early 1990s. Or, from Forest City Enterprises' desire for a major mixed-use development where the Avenue District is going up. FCE's plan was even bigger than Zaremba's Avenue District, and was still on the drawing boards in the mid-1990s (I recall seeing site plans for it on easels in a meeting room at the City Planning Commission's offices in November 1996). Both of those plans were unrelated to the Erieview urban renewal plan of 40 years ago.

^I have a couple of mindless ramblings somewhat related to what has been discussed above.

 

First, agree with a number of things stated above.  My thoughts on Tower City are that FC missed the boat when they could not land Neimans.  This would have made it a regional mall (as I believe the closest is in the Detroit suburbs) and would have helped supported the high end stores that were there when the mall first opened.  Having a Higbees (rather than a Dillards...cannot even compare the two...Higbees was a real department store...which are really rare in the US now a days anywhere... while Dillards is just a big clothing and perfume store) would have helped as well.  Also, it would have been preferably if retail was concentrated at the time at TC and on Euclid rather than dispersing it (like at the Galleria).

 

On a totally unrelated issue (I was going to post this on the Avenue District thread but did not want to come across as negative now that something positive is happen on 12th street but since it was slightly touched on above I thought I would just go ahead here)...but what does it say about Cleveland that it has taken 40 years to develop two of the last Erieview parcels.  The buildings on those two parking lots that Zaremba is now going to develop (hopefully both lots) were torn down in the mid 60's when Erieview was first conceived.  I know there were many reasons for the slow pace but really...40 years.  OK I got that out of my system and now I will be positive for now on.

 

Finally (maybe just a bit more negativity), I was in the Galleria today for the first time in a while and was surprised by what I will just call "deferred maintenance" by the current own (Is it Minshall or Marshall...cannot remember).  It never looked as run down (of course it was newer) when owned by the "evil one".  The exterior on St. Clair looked noticeably shabby.  Siding was buckling and there was large and striking staining.  It just looked bad.  Inside (no rain today) it was like a rain storm in the men's room off the food court.  I would say if was a lawsuit in the making except for the fact that there was so much water on the floor (really a lot) dripping from the ceiling that no court would find liability as the danger was open and obvious to any idiot who actually slipped and fell on it.  Also noticed a huge trash can catching water in the hallway as you approached the restrooms.  I know the owner has done much  to make the tower viable but I wonder if he is spending $$ on the building or just doing the bare minimum.

 

Also was wonder what is going in on the first floor on the St.  Clair side.  Does not look to be retail. 

^I have a couple of mindless ramblings somewhat related to what has been discussed above.

 

First, agree with a number of things stated above.  My thoughts on Tower City are that FC missed the boat when they could not land Neimans.  This would have made it a regional mall (as I believe the closest is in the Detroit suburbs).

 

Beachwood Mall, Ohio's premier regional (destination) mall is MUCH closer. 

Or are you saying that the detroit Neimans is the closest?

I read it as he meant the closest Nieman Marcus is in Detroit.

Sounds like the Detroit Neimans at Sommerset.

I read it as he meant the closest Nieman Marcus is in Detroit.

Sounds like the Detroit Neimans at Sommerset.

yeah but it sucks!  There are four of five really bad NMs and that is one of them.

I read it as he meant the closest Nieman Marcus is in Detroit.

Sounds like the Detroit Neimans at Sommerset.

yeah but it sucks!  There are four of five really bad NMs and that is one of them.

 

The closest [Neimans], east, west and south are Philly, Detroit and Atlanta. I think one could be supported here, one of those would be a good look as far as anchoring the retail portion of this project.

naa...Give us a d*mn Barney's!

 

In addition, Detroit metro has a "last call" and there are, IIRC, three Needless Markups in Chicago metro

In regards to the Galleria, isn't Dollar Bank moving into the St. Claire side and opening a branch which will have a seperate entrance?  I remember an article in the PD about this last fall.

Yes. People would know that if they'd bother to do a search. /pet peeve rant

It will be Crocker Park on steroids

 

Easton?  :|

It will be Crocker Park on steroids

 

Easton?  :|

 

I'm sorry but as corny as Crocker Park is, it owns Easton in every single way. But hopefully Pesht won't really resemble either project.

^ Very true...I don't like Crocker Park, but Easton is an atrocity...no mixed use...all residential is across an 8 lane divided highway...big box and highways surrounding the whole darn thing...it's the worst of the worst when it comes to lifestyle centers (I think even Legacy Village has it beat with it's lack of 8 lane highways and big box retail outlots.

I think they should re-organize that into a more cozy area if you will like Boston's North End.  Reduce the width of St. Claire at W. 3rd on over to W. 9th.  Make the streets even narrower than normal.

As far as I know, the major streets (St. Clair, West 3rd, etc) won't be narrowed but Frankfort might. And sidewalks might be widened at some locations.