Each one of those neighborhood ALREADY has a unique design/feel.  I see nothing wrong with telling the story of each of these ares with signage.

^No, cle2032 is right.  I have thought that for a while.  We have way to many pocket neighborhoods in Cleveland with their own name. 

^No, cle2032 is right.  I have thought that for a while.  We have way to many pocket neighborhoods in Cleveland with their own name. 

 

I disagree.  For example, I hate it when people define Buckeye and Larchmere as "Shaker Square", when each of these three areas - Buckeye, the square itself and Larchmere - have three distinct personalities.

My biggest sore point is when a street gets branded as the destination, as opposed to the neighborhood.  E 4 and W 6 are the two biggest examples.  Calling it by the street name as opposed to Gateway or Warehouse District constrains the neighborhood to just the one street.

I think it only comes off as fake if the neighborhoods aren't different in feel.  The Warehouse District feels very different from Gateway, feels very different from the Theatre District, feels very different from Erieview, feels very different from The Quadrangle.  TC and the Civic Center are large master-planned areas that create their own little "districts" that feel like a different place than the city around them.  The Flats is very seperated by geography and street patterns, and indeed seperated by geography and street patterns into several distinct areas within itself- East Bank, West Bank, that little area around the Flat iron. 

 

They're all part of Downtown, and need to play together under that banner.  But I don't see a problem with allowing them seperate personalities.  That said, overbranding can be cheesy- especially if it follows politically defined lines instead of the real lines of the neighborhood.  I wouldn't want to see too many banners and poorly done gateways pop up around Downtown.

"I disagree.  For example, I hate it when people define Buckeye and Larchmere as "Shaker Square", when each of these three areas - Buckeye, the square itself and Larchmere - have three distinct personalities"

 

Honestly though - your example is a perfect microcosm of why the region is so fractured and resources get wasted.

 

Let's say people want to market the general area of Shaker Square - would it be more efficient to say "Shaker Square" and let people figure it out and learn about each distinct component; or should resources be split up and replicated amongst three distinct but adjacent districts. When the suburbs do it, it's redundancy and anti-regionalism, but when the city neighborhoods do it - that's okay?

"I disagree.  For example, I hate it when people define Buckeye and Larchmere as "Shaker Square", when each of these three areas - Buckeye, the square itself and Larchmere - have three distinct personalities"

 

Honestly though - your example is a perfect microcosm of why the region is so fractured and resources get wasted.

 

Let's say people want to market the general area of Shaker Square - would it be more efficient to say "Shaker Square" and let people figure it out and learn about each distinct component; or should resources be split up and replicated amongst three distinct but adjacent districts. When the suburbs do it, it's redundancy and anti-regionalism, but when the city neighborhoods do it - that's okay?

 

The greater "area" is marketed as "shaker square" but both Larchmere and Buckeye have different needs/residents/visitors. Which to your point, you realize after getiing there have to know once you get there.  Virtually, the areas have their own websites and both reference shaker square.

 

My point is, those neighborhoods are different from Shaker Square itself - which is why the have unique signage.

My comment on all of this is: "whatever."

Also hard to see what any of this has to do with Pesht, regardless of where they hang some banners...

I understand all the points being made, because to UO'ers who are engaged in the city those are our viewpoints.

 

However, to the average suburbanite and visitor, they don't know what we do and that simple signage/et cetera can really help with placemaking and identifying.  Whenever I'm bringing people, they have no idea where they are so I think it would help.

When was the last time this thread had any news about Pesht?

With all of these leases ending in  09, 10, shouldn't we be hearing some news about Pesht.  Based on the building we have seen thus far, it looks like they will take over a year to build.  Plus, thrrow in the bidding process.

Someone posted a link to an interview with Stark on the Solon Crocker Park thread.  There were some interesting quotes.  He said that we should see this project open by 2011, or not at all.  This was because of the lease rollovers you mentioned, gotribe.  Without them as office anchors, he doesn't think he can do the project.  He sees himself as being in competition primarily with Wolstein's East Bank and the Jacobs Public Square lot.  Apparently Jacobs is planning something huge, Stark said 70 stories.

^Well this is something completely different.  Especially the "not at all part". 

^Thats a great post filled with some very interesting information. Its a shame that it is unlikely that all three projects (FEB, Jacobs Tower, Pesht) will occur. It would be great to have a supertall, but Stark's plan would benefit the city more.

pains me to think about it like that, but i think you are correct shuli. it could be that pesht is scaled down to the warehouse district only and the whole envisioned buildout of it (ie., the port authority part) is delayed until all these projects prove themselves as a whole (and the port authority moves out). i am hopeful the cleve can then sustain three super projects on that level.

^Thats a great post filled with some very interesting information. Its a shame that it is unlikely that all three projects (FEB, Jacobs Tower, Pesht) will occur. It would be great to have a supertall, but Stark's plan would benefit the city more.

 

I think if this 70 story tower is a hotel/condo with no or small office componet, it would not hurt pesht.

Not sure how Cleveland can support a 70-storey tower dedicated solely to housing and hotel units. The office component would have to be fairly substantial. Additionally, I thought the reason Jacobs was interested in erecting a tower was due largely to the large amount of firms with expiring office leases.

With all of these leases ending in  09, 10, shouldn't we be hearing some news about Pesht.  Based on the building we have seen thus far, it looks like they will take over a year to build.  Plus, thrrow in the bidding process.

 

i remember stark sayin that he wanted to complete phase 1 by 2009. the fact that we've only seen preliminary renderings released suggests that date is impossible. he still has to send his proposal to the city for approval which will take more than 6 months and he wont release anything until Q1 08. then there has to be finalized designs and the like so we will be lucky if construction STARTS by 2009.

 

i'm very nervous and skeptical still about pesht. we havent seen anything and its takin an awful long time for something to happen.

 

 

this is why i dont get excited until i see cranes in the air. we've heard it before.

 

Apparently Jacobs is planning something huge, Stark said 70 stories.

 

*ahem*

 

Not sure how Cleveland can support a 70-storey tower dedicated solely to housing and hotel units.

 

thats what you think

 

Additionally, I thought the reason Jacobs was interested in erecting a tower was due largely to the large amount of firms with expiring office leases.

 

no.....think about a few things goin down in tha land shortly

 

Someone posted a link to an interview with Stark on the Solon Crocker Park thread.  There were some interesting quotes.  He said that we should see this project open by 2011, or not at all.  This was because of the lease rollovers you mentioned, gotribe.  Without them as office anchors, he doesn't think he can do the project.  He sees himself as being in competition primarily with Wolstein's East Bank and the Jacobs Public Square lot.  Apparently Jacobs is planning something huge, Stark said 70 stories.

 

He also said that the east bank and pesht can coexist. Jacobs tower would obviously be the end of pesht. In closing he said that he should know the intentions of the potential leasees within the next month.

Jacobs tower would obviously be the end of pesht

 

why? that doesnt make sense. jacobs is an entirely different thing from pesht, it is one building on a single lot. a 70-story skyscraper is not going to absorb every single business lease, all the retail, and all the residential. especially since that proposal by jacobs includes a hotel for the convention center.

 

if stark thinks this way hes not thinkin right

 

do i have to accumulate warren buffet fortune in order to get rid of those damn parkin lots myself?

^ I think he’s right on target CTown. Listen to what he has to say:

 

http://www.wkyc.com/video/player.aspx?aid=44446&bw=

 

"that proposal by jacobs includes a hotel for the convention center."

 

And you have this information from what source?

 

"if stark thinks this way hes not thinkin right"

 

I agree that while a Jacobs tower might have an effect on the Stark proposal, I will say that Stark probably has a much better comprehension than you or I of how that would play out.

We are talking 3 projects here.  Stark, Jacobs tower & FEB.  What or who is FEB?

Flats East Bank.

FEB=Flats East Bank, Wolstein's project

Thanx

What the hell is the point of a new 70-story tower in downtown Cleveland? That's insane! I'm in the Halle building and 75% of the damn thing is empty, and it's like 10 stories tall!

 

How did Stark go from gung ho to all the sudden talking like the county commissioners? Is he still focusing on the suburbs to make the cheese?

We had a whole discussion about the impact of a supertall skyscraper would have on downtown Cleveland at:

 

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=4266.480

 

That might be a better place to continue/advance the debate than the Pesht thread.

Just finished watching the Stark interview. He gave a very different tone with his Warehouse District development than he did with me just a month ago. He's now saying that Pesht won't happen without the office components coming in from the reshuffling of downtown leases. That probably shouldn't be a surprise given the condition of the housing market locally and nationally (as well as the financial condition of many housing lenders). He's also saying that "downtown isn't big enough for the three of us" (Wolstein, Stark and Jacobs). That's a very different message than what he said to me, which was that there's enough office users to go around.

 

Also, if you listen carefully to what Stark said, he's saying that his downtown competitors (Wolstein and Jacobs) are working their political connections at City Hall. Now knowing what I know of the City Hall political landscape and of the general cut-throat, even brutal tactics in which competing real estate developers engage, Wolstein, Stark and Jacobs are working their political angles to get what they want, and to block what they don't want (ie: competition).

 

Stark is relatively the new kid in town. The City of Cleveland is already heavily invested in Wolstein's Flats East Bank, with direct grants, municipal financing, zoning, contracts, etc. It can't back out of it, and even needs for FEB to succeed. Jacobs is extremely well connected politically, which should come as no surprise considering how long he has been around. That leaves Stark, who has never built anything downtown before. Nor does he have any contractual obligations or other kinds of buy-in with the city. On that score, he may be the odd man out.

He's also saying that downtown isn't big enough for the three of us (Wolstein, Stark and Jacobs). That's a very different message than what he said to me, which was that there's enough office users to go around.

 

Now knowing what I know of the City Hall political landscape and of the general cut-throat, even brutal tactics in which competing real estate developers engage, Wolstein, Stark and Jacobs are working their political angles to get what they want, and to block what they don't want (ie: competition).

 

Although I agree that the housing market probably has some impact on what Stark said, mightn't his cautious tone also be slightly disingenuous?  It might be part of a tactic to secure his portion of anchor tenants.

I guess my question is, if Stark is a "loser" to Wolstein and Jacobs and he does not believe his original plans for Pesht will work due to excess capacity, what is he going to do with the prime real estate he and is partners have accumulated.  Does it stay miserable parking lots or does Stark re-group with a scaled down version of his original plan or even a new concept that at least gets something built on the vast windswept wasteland between W. 3rd and W. 6th.  Are we looking a parking lots for the next 30 years because they will make $$$ for the owners (especially if Jacobs lot on Public Square is developed).  In other words will Stark be throwing in the towel completely or try to roll with the punches.  If he doesn't do something he is going to lose a lot of credibility.  Truly, it is really amazing how his "tone" has changed in such a short period of time.

^In a similar vein, I wonder how much of a financial investment Stark has already made in the project and how he'll recover if the plan never comes to fruition.

I guess my question is, if Stark is a "loser" to Wolstein and Jacobs and he does not believe his original plans for Pesht will work due to excess capacity, what is he going to do with the prime real estate he and is partners have accumulated. 

 

The only the property that Stark or his partner (Tony Asher/Weston) have acquired for THIS project is Stark's purchase of the former Cambridge Building/Titanic Tower. Asher acquired the multiple parking lot parcels a long time ago to earn revenue from parking in the interim and for possible development someday. Stark came along and reached a development agreement with Asher to develop the parcels.

 

Stark said he was near to purchasing the three-level parking garage at West 6th and Superior, but the auditor's site doesn't yet show a title transfer has taken place. There is, however, a time lag for the auditor's office to display title transfers.

 

Stark owns many other properties around Greater Cleveland which he is not yet ready to develop. Hardly unusual for most developers.

So according to Stark's interview we will know something in a month as companies are making decisions on leases. Has Jacobs come forward anywhere with his plans for a 70 story skyscraper?

Well, I think he was saying that he will know in a month.  I don't know if that means that info will be made public.

He's also saying that downtown isn't big enough for the three of us (Wolstein, Stark and Jacobs). That's a very different message than what he said to me, which was that there's enough office users to go around.

 

Now knowing what I know of the City Hall political landscape and of the general cut-throat, even brutal tactics in which competing real estate developers engage, Wolstein, Stark and Jacobs are working their political angles to get what they want, and to block what they don't want (ie: competition).

 

Although I agree that the housing market probably has some impact on what Stark said, mightn't his cautious tone also be slightly disingenuous?  It might be part of a tactic to secure his portion of anchor tenants.

 

You could be on to something, I mean look at the Medical Mart and its potential 153 sites. But would the companies care if Pesht didn't get built? All their really looking for is the cheapest prime office space.

Jacobs is not going to build a 70 story building. 

 

Also, they do not have the same influence around City Hall that they had 15 years ago.  They've been dormant with Downtown Cleveland involvement.

Nothing is for certain yet but why are we surprised?  Why does everything in this city have to be an all or nothing endeavour?  What would be wrong with starting small in the WHD instead of this huge $1billion undertaking?! Granted it's being planned in phases but a few billion $$$ planned to be developed downtown in a few short years seems a bit Dubai-ish.  Maybe they can't make money with a small project...I don't know...  But the timid, "wait 5 more years" nature of our movers and shakers is really annoying.  I guess that's why they have money and I don't but still... :x  I can't wait to see the next crappy Sketch-up rendering of the WHD!!! :roll:

 

Oh, and any money Stark may lose if this doesn't come to fruition will definitely be offset by the profits he'll make from a new Solon Crocker Park.  It's new, it's safe in suburbia, it's Chico's!  What's not to love about that?!  :roll: :x

 

Honestly, I hope all 3 people go forward with their respective projects downtown!  We've just seen too many things put on the back burner and before you know it, 10 years have gone by and nothing has happened.

 

GO TRIBE!

 

 

Jacobs is not going to build a 70 story building. 

 

Also, they do not have the same influence around City Hall that they had 15 years ago.  They've been dormant with Downtown Cleveland involvement.

 

And where is your proof?  Where did you get this information?

Jacobs is not going to build a 70 story building. 

 

Also, they do not have the same influence around City Hall that they had 15 years ago.  They've been dormant with Downtown Cleveland involvement.

Every large developer has been dormant with development in dt Cleveland for 15 years.  There hasn't been a demand for large developers. 

I say relax everyone! There's a good chance that at least two of these projects will bear fruit. Two out of three ain't bad!

FEB will happen.

It seems that both Jacobs and Stark are offering the same components, one  vertical, the other spread out among the warehouse district. Although a seventy or so office story building is a nice drive buy, I can't see it having the same positive impact as filling in the parking lots in the warehouse district. Jacob's building will only guarantee the warehouse never gets developed. It will drive up the cost of those lots to the point it will be impossible to  build anything. Stark seemed beaten in his interview, hence the push to developing Solon. I hope I'm wrong.

^You  ight be right.  Stark may be begining to think he does not have the political clout or experience or staff to pull off the dt development.  He may be begining to think he is a suburban developer.  However, that is all Wolstien is too.  He does not have much Urban Development exp.  DDRC is the King of spralling shopping centers with Petco's and Bed Bath Beyonds etc. 

I think the reason for the Solon development is because Stark is ambitious, and has a genuine interest on being Greater Cleveland's "new urbanism" developer. He expresses interest in those types of projects now whenever they come up. Remember Stark pitching plans for Shaker Heights and University Circle. And I don't think this has been in the press anywhere, but he was clearly courting Chagrin Falls officials when I saw him taking them on a tour of Crocker Park.

 

Stark is clearly all over the place, but he's definately sticking to mixed-use developments. 

You could be on to something, I mean look at the Medical Mart and its potential 153 sites. But would the companies care if Pesht didn't get built? All their really looking for is the cheapest prime office space.

 

Perhaps.  Perhaps not.  Stark mentions it in his interview, and I agree, that by leasing with Stark, and bringing the WD project to fruit, that they will be helping to give themselves a competitive edge in recruiting new, younger employees by being a part of a thriving urban neighborhood.  If they see the value in that, there is a good chance they might go with Stark.

Is there a thread about this Jacobs tower?  I’d like to see info on it if there is any, but even if there is my gut tells me Jacobs probably isn’t that serious about it.  He’s probably just throwing out as idea that will raise attention and remind people that he’s still alive.  With Jacobs’s contributions lately people may have forgotten. 

Not to be a downer or anything, but for you veteran posters in the know, give an honest opinion.  What percent chance do you think there is that a shovel full of dirt ever gets moved for Pesht?  I know I’m coming across negative, but I’m so frustrated with projects that take forever to develop, only to get scrapped. 

^We don't do "percent chance" guesses here.  Or at least, I can't recall anyone ever taking the bait on one!

 

There was another interview in the Downtown Cleveland Alliance's newsletter that just hit mailboxes this week.  Stark mentioned having leases on a percentage of his office & retail space for phase 1 by 1st quarter '08, breaking ground in '09 and opening phase 1 in 2011.  He also stressed the importance of creating a tax increment financing (TIF) district and indicated how far behind he believes Ohio is in utilizing this tool. 

 

I don't think the article is online yet, but I can scan it in later if it doesn't show up on their website.  Or anyone from DCA who feels like putting it on the site (www.downtownclevelandalliance.com) can hook us up!