That's what Stark "hopes to do".  I'm wondering if  they are resurrecting the Jacobs/ forest city plan. Jacobs will put up his tower/office/hotel, and forest city will put the convention center into the parking lot space.

I really don't see the Warehouse District Convention Center proposal resurfacing. The site is completely inappropriate for the use (20+ loading docks, etc.) and expansion isn't an option.

I also don't do predictions. I have no development experience and no inside knowledge of the discussions between developers and downtown office tenants.

 

I get mad when people in the office ask me if Stark's project (or any project) will happen. They expect me to have an opinion simply because they would have one, and will use that opinion to decide whether they will support a project or not based on their perceived likelihood of whether the project will happen. That's crazy. Can you imagine how many projects wouldn't get built if that's how public officials determined the viability of projects?

 

Actually, I can. We've seen the outcomes of that approach for these past decades here in Cleveland.

 

Don't heed anyone's opinion of whether a project will happen except for those who are directly involved with it. You might as well buy the services of a psychic, palm reader, crystal ball or divining rod to get the same valuable information.

Okay, I understand.  Thanks anyway.  It just seems Cleveland has major projects fall through much more often than the other cities in Ohio.  I was so excited about this project since the beginning and it really seemed like it was going to happen.  But that excitement has really started to dwindle in the past several months due to such a lack of any progress.  I was just trying to get a feel with regards to the chances it actually happens at this point.  I’m no longer optimistic, but I’m hopeful. 

But that excitement has really started to dwindle in the past several months due to such a lack of any progress.

 

The lack of APPARENT progress. As much as Stark likes to engage the media, he can't during the leasing phase. Negotiations are inherently private activities and VERY complicated. And that's a big downside of his MO, unlike those of many other, much more private developers. Stark loves to come right out and talk publicly about what he wants to do. Then, when he gets into the leasing phase, things get really quiet and the outward appearance is that nothing is going on. The outcome of that is when we learn whether the project will happen in the manner Stark originally wanted or even if it will happen at all. You can see why other developers keep things quiet from the start of their envisioning the project until they've got leases in hand. But Stark doesn't work that way.

Could he be doing a bit of saber rattling at Jacobs?  IIRC, pesht started out a lot smaller than what we have seen peaking through windows.  But now that Jacobs want to do a mega tower, this mega project can't go through?

Couldn't it just reduce to its original size?

can anyone confirm or deny Jacob's intentions?

Jacobs' own PR guy, Bill Fullington said Jacobs is in the running for tenants for a Public Square skyscaper. And if a reporter's word means anything, I've heard from two sources whom I consider reliable that the tower is proposed to be 60 stories, split among two of the large tenants whose leases are up elsewhere. Stark is now saying a 70-story tower.

This has to beg the question:  would Cleveland be better off without the Richard Jacobs Group?

^I like Jacob's field

Soon to NOT be Jacob's Field.

Nothing is for certain yet but why are we surprised?  Why does everything in this city have to be an all or nothing endeavour?  What would be wrong with starting small in the WHD instead of this huge $1billion undertaking?! Granted it's being planned in phases but a few billion $$$ planned to be developed downtown in a few short years seems a bit Dubai-ish.  Maybe they can't make money with a small project...I don't know...  But the timid, "wait 5 more years" nature of our movers and shakers is really annoying.  I guess that's why they have money and I don't but still... :x  I can't wait to see the next crappy Sketch-up rendering of the WHD!!! :roll:

 

Oh, and any money Stark may lose if this doesn't come to fruition will definitely be offset by the profits he'll make from a new Solon Crocker Park.  It's new, it's safe in suburbia, it's Chico's!  What's not to love about that?!  :roll: :x

 

Honestly, I hope all 3 people go forward with their respective projects downtown!  We've just seen too many things put on the back burner and before you know it, 10 years have gone by and nothing has happened.

 

 

I feel your frustration.  I think Stark's brashness and newness has cost him at City Hall and the County Admin building.  I also get the sense that the banks and realtors have gotten their chuckles at Stark's Dubai-ish Pesht, as you put it ...

 

In addition to Crocker Park and Crocker East (Solon), let's not forget he's still the favored company to redevelop the huge Shaker/Warrensville/Van Aken project; none downtown but in the burbs, Stark's apparent comfort zone... At least the Shaker project is a TOD unlike his others...

Let's not count Stark out yet. What he is planning is huge and takes time to piece together, plus he's stated he has interested parties on the office and retail sides.

 

Re: Burj Cleveland, as much as I would like to see a new 60 or 70 story tower in Downtown Cleveland, if it kills Pesht, I'd rather not have it. That said if Jacobs can't build his tower this time, I hope he waits till the market demands again.

I find all this "speculation" boring.  None of us has a seat at the table or are involved in any negotiations.  

 

How about we let it play out, then report facts?

This whole "jacobs thing" has come up rather suddenly.  So what is he doing, dusting off the architectural plans for the old Ameritrust Tower (which I actually liked and which I believed was about 60 stories) or does he purportedly have a new design.  If he does (or in reality "they do"...don't know how really active he is) and it is something he is showing prospective clients (say e and y, baker, eaton), it has to have been in the works for some time as your cannot buy plans for a major skyscraper at Target.  Funny that we have not heard about this "design" to date if all of this is true.  You would have thought somebody at one of these companies would have leaked something to somebody (if only in a drunken stupor at a cocktail party).  I really have to question much of this but am willing to be proved wrong with some hard facts which seem to be missing.

I wouldn't think that Jacobs needs a well thought out rendering to draw tenants or to know that he wants something 60-70ish stories.

I feel your frustration.  I think Stark's brashness and newness has cost him at City Hall and the County Admin building.  I also get the sense that the banks and realtors have gotten their chuckles at Stark's Dubai-ish Pesht, as you put it ...

 

You couldn't be more wrong. The folks at City Hall like his plan for its scale, as do the banks and lenders. Realtors aren't yet on board because Stark hasn't engaged them. His salespeople are dealing directly with the office users whose leases are winding down.

 

In addition to Crocker Park and Crocker East (Solon), let's not forget he's still the favored company to redevelop the huge Shaker/Warrensville/Van Aken project; none downtown but in the burbs, Stark's apparent comfort zone... At least the Shaker project is a TOD unlike his others...

 

Too bad Shaker city officials are asking Stark to water down his proposed Warrensville TOD. Stark may walk away from that project. I wonder if his proposing of the Solon project is any indication that he already is walking away....

His personality has very little if anything to do with the delays in the WD. The biggest stumbling block as I understand it is the financing gap. That's why he was going after a sales tax TIF (maybe still is) and now landing a big office tenant: It would help close the gaping hole in his financing.

^That makes total sense.  It seems that to a certain extent his vision got ahead of the financing cart and reality in this regard is starting to hit home.  Maybe more of a reason for the back tracking and his current emphasis on the Jacobs threat.

It seems to me that since the convention center / medical mart had its financing in place, it is a whole new ballgame in downtown Cleveland.  I think that is why the Jacob's proposal is now realistic.

 

naaah, i wouldn't say stark got ahead of himself at all, he's just more vocal about it than most developers. he knows what it will take to get pesht up and running. i'd say moving into the titanic building on-site is major proof that his people are very serious and dedicated to getting this going. its going to take some startup time, we should have patience. i hope he gets his tif and whatever infrastructure improvements he needs that the city can provide quick. no doubt it takes a lot of schmoozing and that its all in the works....time will tell.

 

revival rumors of the jacobs tower? now that one is certainly interesting. hmm. it may be about time to try to arrange an interview with jacobs himself sometime this fall kjp? * i am guessing that would be some kind of proprietary scoop for you kjp so you dont have to answer, but i am just sayin..!

 

edit: i just emailed richard jacobs group -- we'll see if they respond, or i guess if they can respond at this point.

 

My understanding is that Dick Jacobs isn't directly involved (or at least, not as directly involved in the management of his company) as he used to be. Even when he was younger and more involved, he tried to stay out of the limelight. For example, the only way I could get much of a scoop about Jacobs Group's progress in remaking of Westgate was from peripheral sources -- those who Jacobs Group staff had to deal with.

Again, what's wrong with starting small and growing into something large (a la Stonebridge)?  No wonder so many projects are abandoned.  Instead of working together for a common good that would ultimately benefit each of them 10-fold, it seems like our developers only want their name in the spotlight even if it means never moving a shovel. We need visionaries.  We don't need some homogeneous thing that has plopped itself down in the center of our city--actually would we really complain...? :|

 

 

Given what Stark has proposed, I'd say he's a visionary.

well, at least i got a quick reply to my email this afternoon from jacobs point man. here it is:

 

 

MrNyc:

 

Thanks for your inquiry regarding The Jacobs Group’s plan at Public Square and for sharing your forum’s link.  Unfortunately, I’m not able to comment on any details of our plans for Public Square other than to confirm that we are indeed working on a development for our property there.

 

We appreciate your interest.

 

 

Bill Fullington

 

Marketing and Communications

 

The Richard E. Jacobs Group, Inc.

 

 

^That response is classic Bill Fullington. Very smart guy and he knows how Jacobs Group likes to "play the game"  after many years of employment with them and now as a consultant, with Jacobs as his major client.  Very much like the PR people who handle Hollywood types.  If they want you to know something, they will send out an unsolicited press release with glowing information about their client.  If they want to keep something under wraps (like who their client is dating) they will issue carefully worded denials (and then you learn later that everything was true).  The thing will Fullington's current response is that you could have probably made that inquiry 10 years ago and received the same answer .  A developer will always say he is working on developing a property, especially such a key parcel.  The problem is that this could mean they have 3 major leases in hand and are going to the Planning Commission with the design next week or it could mean the parcel comes up as agenda item number 10 at the regular Monday morning meeting and is discussed for 30 seconds.  This is not a knock on Fullington.  He is just doing his job (something he does very well) and is a nice guy.

Its not just the Jacobs group, its any company.  My staff sends out confirmed "acknowledgments" everyday on items that are public knowledge that we cannot give any specifics on.

 

That is the exact answer I would have given.

He's always been prompt in responding to my inquiries. No complaints here about the guy.

I heard (not first hand) that Eaton Corp. has backed out of the "new construction" talks. This apparently came about last week and (IMO) might have been what caused Stark's recent frustration if B&H and E&Y are closer in terms of finalizing negotiations with Jacobs.

I feel your frustration.  I think Stark's brashness and newness has cost him at City Hall and the County Admin building.  I also get the sense that the banks and realtors have gotten their chuckles at Stark's Dubai-ish Pesht, as you put it ...

 

You couldn't be more wrong. The folks at City Hall like his plan for its scale, as do the banks and lenders. Realtors aren't yet on board because Stark hasn't engaged them. His salespeople are dealing directly with the office users whose leases are winding down.

 

KJP is right. I sat in on bank meetings re: financing Crocker Park, which was at the time still a novel concept. The presentation centered on the project at first, and the response was tepid at best. When it was mentioned that Stark was doing the developing, the result was almost instant acceptance.

 

Stark has a reputation for making a project viable, through sheer will power if necessary, at least until permanent financing via capital markets is put in place and the banks are off the hook.

I wish that warehouse project would start soon.  Come on, who the hell doesn't want it at this point.

Bob Stark was on Feagler's World tonight. He didn't say anything new and Feagler waxed poetic about the good old days. What a bore. I'm seriously thinking of pitching a show to WCPN that brings in some new blood to these shows. I fear they'll blow me off because I do PR for a job, though.

Did Bob Stark mention ANYthing about the Warehouse District project? Is it still a go?

 

Anyway, what is causing all these doubts that it will happen in the forum? Has he given any indications that it isn't going to happen? I mean, if it's just the fact that it's taking time, that's to be expected. I remember Crocker Park being proposed when I was still living in Cleveland. That was over 7 years ago.

Feagler said: "Will this happen in my lifetime?"

Stark said. "YES... God willing."

 

So, take that for what you will. The rest of the conversation was about his basic urban philosophies and the boring Solon project. Stark really seems to have changed his talking points to focus on "luring" world-class workers to Cleveland, which I bet has everything to do with the office tenants he's trying to get. His message right now is, Cleveland can't compete against other U.S. or world cities for excellent workers. To his credit, Feagler seemed to be more hopeful for downtown. I think that guy loves the city but has been soured by life experience.

 

Later in their round table, they had some local journalists talking about it, but they didn't have much additional information. One guy from Crain's said the high-end stores in Tower City flopped because of crappy sales, not hoodlums. He said that was something Stark would need to consider with his project.

That's something that I'm still concerned about. I mean, if Stark can draw the residents into downtown, that's a huge plus. Any new retail brought into downtown will lose steam quickly without a strong resident base, I think.

 

Also, he needs to take the market into consideration when bringing retailers in, which I'm sure he is. What I mean is, what types of stores truly cater to Clevelanders? Even if it's downtown, if he brings in higher-class stores, will they do well in a market like Cleveland? I'm interested to see how this whole thing plays out in the LONG TERM because that's the true test.

 

I also think it's wise to take people who trumpet the next big thing with somewhat of a grain of salt. I hope for the best, and I'm not saying that Bob Stark won't do this, but he sounds a bit less confident than just a few months ago. Maybe I'm reading too much into it with my negativity glasses? :) I have the mentality of "Talk is cheap. BACK YOUR WORDS UP with some actions." It's great to get people excited. Now show us. And if he doesn't, in the words of Jerry Seinfeld, "That's a pretty big motza ball hanging out there."

 

Either way, I'm definitely excited about the possibility of this project and everything else that's in the planning stages right now. Good times!

http://starkenterprises.com/warehouse.php

 

Took a look at Stark's website. It projects a 2011 completion date. Sounds like he's still pretty committed to doing this.

That is new... interesting.

Nice... the Warehouse District plan is the first thing you see on his site.

Man do they talk a good game or what?

 

"The Most Stunning City Blocks This Side of Prague"

 

 

That's ambitious, but that's Stark.

Those are going to be some chess pieces!

Maybe he heard us griping? I'm going to live delusionally and say we are a secret public policy/developmental power :)

Man do they talk a good game or what?

 

"The Most Stunning City Blocks This Side of Prague"

Hype to the point of bombast, but I like it!  There is a lot of good information in there, all with very terse verbiage. 

AT ITS CORE, A DISTRICT OF CORPORATE

HEADQUARTERS WITHIN THE “SOHO” OF THE MIDWEST

Imagine the value of an internationally esteemed community of world headquarters nestled in the charm of a vibrant and active mixed-use urban neighborhood. A neighborhood of this caliber has the vitality, infrastructure and audience to attract the top corporate and retail brands.

 

This environment will be more than another great place to live, work and shop.

The Warehouse District will be revolutionary. We have specifically engineered a walkable, sustainable, holistic culture-scape that will supercharge the recruiting efforts, employee retention, employee productivity, brand perception, and bottom line of the District’s corporate tenants and will appeal to the lifestyle of a new generation.

 

"Maybe he heard us griping? I'm going to live delusionally and say we are a secret public policy/developmental power."

 

If that's the case:

Props on the boldness and god hoping this thing gets going, and I know they are just trying to give a reference to the goal of the density, street life, etc, but I've heard enough of the "SOHO of the Midwest."

It just seems so cliche and really doesn't make any sense.  The South Of HOuston of the Midwest?

Otherwise, put me down for a condo with a Terminal Tower view.

internationally esteemed community of world headquarters..... hmmmm...besides Eaton and BH, I wonder if he is marketing to some companies in the burbs, maybe outside of the area.

 

I hope he does not poach too much from other cities, unless they are out of state :)

You're being way to literal.  Most people will identify with the "energy" of NY or London's SoHo, not the "location" of SoHo.

The massings look slightly more developed.  Is that an elevated park?

You're being way to literal.  Most people will identify with the "energy" of NY or London's SoHo, not the "location" of SoHo.

 

Pretty sure I prefaced the fact that I knew what they were trying to do.  It's a tired cliche.

 

Anyways, are there new images on their website?  I didn't see any.

when is stark actually going to start construction?

You're being way to literal.  Most people will identify with the "energy" of NY or London's SoHo, not the "location" of SoHo.

 

Pretty sure I prefaced the fact that I knew what they were trying to do.  It's a tired cliche.

 

Anyways, are there new images on their website?  I didn't see any.

 

I sure hope this development has "NY Style Lofts".......