A look at the comments thread for the blog post related to the PD article (or any comment thread, typically) tells you how far we have to go in changing mindsets.  I posted a comment about how the site was ridden with the "Sons And Daughters of Dick Feagler brigade" but it didn't make it past the censor, apparently.  :roll:

http://blog.cleveland.com/architecture/2007/12/_cleveland_mayor_frank_jackson.html

 

Cleveland Mayor Frank Jackson likes Warehouse District proposal; now it's on to the details

Posted by Plain Dealer Architecture Critic Steven Litt December 07, 2007 13:01PM

Categories: City Planning

PLAIN DEALER FILE PHOTOGRAPH

 

Cleveland regional development Chief Chris Warren, on Robert Stark's Warehouse District proposal: "It's crucial.''

 

Cleveland Mayor Frank Jackson has seen developer Robert Stark's "Big Bang" proposal for the Warehouse District and likes it -- a lot.

any chance they can fund this from a regional tax base? half a billion from just the city of cleveland, is that even possible?

I try not judge people.. but dear LORD are people who post on the Cleveland.com message boards stupid..

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/plaindealer/2007/12/warehouse_district_plan_will_n.html

I try not judge people.. but dear LORD are people who post on the Cleveland.com message boards stupid..

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/plaindealer/2007/12/warehouse_district_plan_will_n.html

 

"I believe buildings in that location were tore down by the city, and those parking lots were made to keep people in the city, by providing inexpensive places to park."

^ Isn't it common knowledge that the bestest cities have the cheapest parking???  :wink:

I'm amazed that some of those people can actually figure out how to turn on a computer.

I'm excited about this project as anyone else is. But still .. I have major concerns about the vacancies left behind from any companies that move to the WHD. I'm hoping they'll be able to fill those spaces with other comapnies from the suburbs, like Stark is promising.

 

This whole thing will definitely be interesting to watch.

Anybody else see the local news broadcast on this project 7pm Sunday night? I was in a crowded, noisy bar, but I think the channel was fox 8. I can't find a link on the story there, or the other local stations websites, but it looked very promising. Wish I could've heard it. They seemed to be going into some detail with the plans.

 

Can somebody find this and post a link???

Fox 8 has played that show called "Neighborhood" the past few sunday's.  You may be able to find it on their webpage.  However, it doesn't give any information that isn't on here.  It's just really talking about the plan and getting peoples impression of it. 

I'm excited about this project as anyone else is. But still .. I have major concerns about the vacancies left behind from any companies that move to the WHD. I'm hoping they'll be able to fill those spaces with other comapnies from the suburbs, like Stark is promising.

 

This whole thing will definitely be interesting to watch.

 

It would be really nice if new tenants will fill the vacancies left behind as a result of new construction, but I think any time a place like downtown Cleveland can keep organizations within the central business district is good. I'd rather see companies downtown stay downtown and upgrade their space rather than move out to the suburbs (or another city all together).

 

I agree with the points calling for more density...I know it was discussed on other threads, but IMO, an "urban" feel builds up to the street. For those of you that have been in downtown Pittsburgh (esp. Grant St. and Fifth Ave.) know that given its size, is very dense. You feel like you're in a city that's bigger than it actually is.

 

I just get tired of all of the calls for "green space" being a top priority - don't we have enough as it is? Malls A,B,C - Willard Park - Perk Park - W.3rd and Lakeside (the name escapes me)- the crap fronting North Point - PUBLIC SQUARE? Weren't there mumblings awhile back about Perk getting a makeover? And isn't a park going in behind the Celebrezze building?

 

Before the greenies jump down my back, I, like Blinker, feel that a "pocket park" can add some aesthetic appeal (i.e. the park next to the Library on Superior.) However, how many do we need? For a city our size, we certainly have several greenspaces that no one uses already...

^Welcome Satchel to the forum.  I think we're all pretty much on the same page here, and I'm guessing Litt was just a little sloppy with his words- I doubt he's really pushing for building set backs or anything less than traditional urban massing.  I suspect he was just reacting to the height of the proposed office blocks- especially the one on the SE corner of St. Clair and W6th.  Given the enormous street widths, though, I don't really think height is going to be much of a problem here.

 

As for green space- yes, downtown is full of crappy unused open space already.  The corner of West 6th and St. Clair is less than 1/4 mile from Public Square and lousy Settler's Landing as it is.  Maybe new residents/users will push some design improvements to these parks- god forbid a tree is planted in Settler's Landing.  Stark evidently didn't see the need for new public greenspace, and I think I agree with him.

if more people are living in downtown, then you'll see more people useing the malls, public square, settlers. And, lets not forget that Canal Basin Park is quietly in the works (although its still a few years away).

I don't recall this article, or the graphic, being posted here. I might as ell....

 

http://www.downtownclevelandliving.com/2007/12/12/stark-wants-warehouse-district-project-to-start-in-2009-finish-in-2011/

 

Stark wants Warehouse District project to start in 2009, finish in 2011

Posted on December 12, 2007

Filed Under Uncategorized |

 

Bob Stark spoke with The Plain Dealer last week about his plans for redeveloping the Warehouse District.

 

The plan calls for 1 million square feet of street-level retail, mostly from national chains. (for reference, Crocker Park also has 1 million square feet of retail, Legacy Village has just under 600,000 and Steelyard Commons has about 650,000 square feet so far)

 

http://www.downtownclevelandliving.com/images/Stark.jpg

Nice

Any updates on Pesht?  Has Stark been able to bring any large tenant on board?  I wonder how the development at Ameritrust is going to impact Pesht; looks like there are now at least three developers with advanced plans competing for five super-tenants: East Flats, Stark, and K & D.

^Nothing new to report as of this time.  It stated in the article that more developments would be forthcoming, probably in the next few months.

 

 

.

.

KJP (because I am lazy) does the Price/Corna 668 and Cleveland Trust development fit harmoniously with Stark's "Y" idea?

 

Do you know if they worked together at all, or will that hurt Pesht?

^^^Uh..thanks for the welcome but I've been here for a while and I'm pretty sure I didn't write a synopsis recently. Might be a case of mistaken identity. :-D

^^^Uh..thanks for the welcome but I've been here for a while and I'm pretty sure I didn't write a synopsis. Might be a case of mistaken identity. :-D

 

well he was quoting someone from 2005.......

KJP (because I am lazy) does the Price/Corna 668 and Cleveland Trust development fit harmoniously with Stark's "Y" idea?

 

Do you know if they worked together at all, or will that hurt Pesht?

 

Yes, I think it does. But I'm not aware of any "working together" with Stark. However....

 

Unlike in the suburbs where developers have been trying for decades to knock each other out of the box, I've really been struck by the way developers are cheering for each other on their own downtown developments. Yes, they're competing, especially for the big office tenants (though I wish they were looking outside downtown and the metro area as much as they're trying to draw from within). But for the most part they understand that anything they do to increase employment, residential population and retail sales downtown, it will benefit the others' project.

 

Everybody wins with downtown success stories.

A quote from Zaremba, "a rising tide raises all boats."

I thought that was JFK? ;)

Mahatma Ghandi's "You must become the change you want to see" is up there too!

.

Yeah Bob, snap your fingers and make it happen NOW!  :roll:  :roll:  :roll:

Bob is a talker by nature, he's 50-something years old and he isn't going to change just because someone else doesn't like his style. Not now. What you see is what you get with him. If you don't like it, change the channel/turn the page/click "next."

He is a talker but I certainly wouldn't argue with his vision. Easier said than done.

Bob is a talker by nature, he's 50-something years old and he isn't going to change just because someone else doesn't like his style. Not now. What you see is what you get with him. If you don't like it, change the channel/turn the page/click "next."

 

I agree.  As said here, time and time again, the scale of this project and many others downtown cannot happen overnight.  Especially in Cleveland where many of the properties have multiple ownership.

 

Now we're experiencing first hand the development snowball growing larger and faster.  Two years ago, we knew that conversions were slowing and that "new build" residential buildings would soon have to start going up.  Now we have 3 for sure developments that will be built and 4 more in the early stages.  Things are going up, the downtown residential market is looking bright, the overall economy and the image of the region is greatly improving.  None of this happens overnight.

 

There are projects I don't elements of, so I do understand, but to any of you who are criticizing the time from announcement to ground breaking and/or are complaining and bitching about how long it takes projects to be completed.  PUT YOURSELF IN ANY OF THE CURRENT DEVELOPERS SHOES AND BUILD YOUR DREAM PROJECT - AND LET US CRITIQUE YOUR PROJECT!  Stop the ridiculous and unnecessary bellyaching!

Well, here come the fireworks...

 

 

 

Stark fires off email criticizing Wolstein's Flats project

Posted by Michelle Jarboe January 23, 2008 23:29PM

Categories: Real estate

 

 

Developer Bob Stark is furious about what he claims is Ernst & Young's decision to negotiate for space in a competing project on the east bank of the Flats.  Stark plans a $1.5-billion development in the nearby Warehouse District. He fired off an email today to government and business leaders, asserting that Ernst & Young's move would be the first step in a march of major office users out of the central city.

 

more at:

http://blog.cleveland.com/business/2008/01/stark_fires_off_email_criticiz.html

"This is urban sprawl of the worst kind," said Stark, who has developed many suburban projects, including Crocker Park in Westlake.

 

What a fascinating claim.  It is so backwards, it might be frontwards. 

"Warren confirmed Wednesday that Eaton has been involved in discussions about building a corporate campus in the loop of the Regional Transit Authority's waterfront line within Wolstein's project."

 

I can't imagine a worse location for a corporate headquarters if they are trying to add to downtown's vitality/density.  Absolutely horrible.

I couldnt agree more.  I was hoping Stark could land the biggies... 

Successful development of the Flats East Bank will HELP Stark's project (not hurt it). 

 

Land development in places like Median, Huron, Avon and Media = urban sprawl = a big negative for the region and our environment. 

 

The Flats has enormous potential to be a major regional draw for new employers & young professionals.  If an amazing developer like Wolstein can actually rebuild the infrastructure and rejuvenate this 'black eye', it will bring a new momentum to Downtown.  It will also make the Stark/Asher land much more valuable for development.  Stark should look outside of existing Downtown office users for his project.  It will be a much easier sell with a booming Flats East Bank in walking distance!

Aren't there enough prospective tenants to go around? If this project takes an E&Y to happen why not? Couldn't Stark sign B&H or SS&D or both to anchor his project? I don't like that a major tenant will possibly relocate from the CBD but someone has to go to FEB.

"Warren confirmed Wednesday that Eaton has been involved in discussions about building a corporate campus in the loop of the Regional Transit Authority's waterfront line within Wolstein's project."

 

I can't imagine a worse location for a corporate headquarters if they are trying to add to downtown's vitality/density.  Absolutely horrible.

 

I think there is more too it though.  I think there may be a hotel componet to this project as well.

I totally agree that the WFL loop is an absolutely terrible place for an office building- at least until the adjacent Lakefront is ready to be developed (lord only knows when that will be).  Plopping office workers there would add nothing to downtown except an inconsequential number of WFL riders.  Don't really understand Stark's tantrum though- did he think these guys would just sign on the dotted line without really shopping around?

Don't really understand Stark's tantrum though

 

- Or what it accomplishes, I guess he was just venting.

^Was a pretty impressive email list to vent to though, I'll give him that.

Hmm... Why do you think Starks email included the Chairman of Amercan Greetings?  or even Dan Gilbert?

Hmm... Why do you think Starks email included the Chairman of Amercan Greetings?  or even Dan Gilbert?

 

my speculation:

a) current relationship with them

b) potential to bring them into the picture as office and or retail tenants

c) It's possible that if he was able to lease "x" major tenant, than the above would also lease space.

 

 

 

 

Hmm... Why do you think Starks email included the Chairman of Amercan Greetings?  or even Dan Gilbert?

 

Can't speak to Dan Gilbert, but Morry Weiss is an investor with Stark

Hmm... Why do you think Starks email included the Chairman of Amercan Greetings?  or even Dan Gilbert?

 

Good question, although AJ93 answered part of it. Still interesting though.

 

Stark is way off base here. If the Flats is urban sprawl, then Karen Carpenter was fat. I'm glad the PD mentioned Stark's suburban developments right after his sprawl quote, though. I'm not wild about putting an office building inside the Waterfront Line loop (it was originally proposed to enclose an aquarium). But some walkways over the Norfolk Southern railroad tracks to retail, etc. could make a bad situation tolerable.

Although I get (and somewhat agree) with what he means, it probably wasnt the best way of saying it, expecially given his development track record...

 

Plus negotiations are negotiations.... They (company's) have the right to look for the best option/deal...  even if it is on a secluded island that will have no benefit to the CBD or the East Bank for that matter!!!  I wonder what happened to our predicted sight of Lighthouse Landing for Eaton?  And although I was hoping the larger tenants would sign with Stark, the Lighthouse sight would have been a bit more pallate-able and helped to tie the WHD to the East Bank.

This really screams of desperation. I hope this doesn't mean that Pesht is unlikely to go forward.

^^Exactly. 

oh my oh my. i loves me a good developer catfight.

 

pull up the easy chair folks & crack open a tall cool one, the fireworks are just getting started.

 

"The city is not interested in taking sides between the two projects, Warren said."

 

lol! excellent public quote. i love it.

 

i wonder if stark & wolstein bump into each other at these retail conventions they go to? oh to be a fly on the wall for that. heh.