Stark reassessing Warehouse District plan

Posted by Michelle Jarboe January 24, 2008 23:27PM

Categories: Breaking News, Real estate

Developer Bob Stark is reassessing his Warehouse District plans after learning that major downtown office tenants might move into a growing project in the Flats.

 

"At this point, all I can say is we're going to assess the situation," Alan Melamed, a spokesman for Stark, said Thursday. "Assess the viability of the project, what the options are in terms of other tenants, and determine what direction we should go."

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/business/2008/01/stark_reassessing_warehouse_di.html

I'm a bit leery of the forces that want to "suburbanize" development, for lack of a better way to describe it, in the central city and inner ring. I do hope the term "campus" is a misnomer. If we get something for Eaton along the lines of an Applied Industrial HQ in the waterfront line loop then I think Stark's rant will be justified. Whatever he's done is the past, at least he wants to fill in the street grid in the Warehouse District... not put in a cul-de-sac!

I don't think the Flats East/RTA WFL loop location is as horrible as people make it sound.  Remember, it's going to be on the waterfront surrounded by high-end residential & retail development in a high-density, walkable environment... Maybe Stark should work on luring suburban businesses downtown much like how Detroit lured Compuware from the suburbs to the center of town and a new mixed-use building...

 

... oh yeah, I guess that would upset Frank's concept of city-suburb cooperation... oh well.

 

... oh yeah, I guess that would upset Frank's concept of city-suburb cooperation... oh well.

 

Nope.  mute point, look at all the digital company's moving from the 'burbs to downtown.

I'm a bit leery of the forces that want to "suburbanize" development, for lack of a better way to describe it, in the central city and inner ring. I do hope the term "campus" is a misnomer. If we get something for Eaton along the lines of an Applied Industrial HQ in the waterfront line loop then I think Stark's rant will be justified. Whatever he's done is the past, at least he wants to fill in the street grid in the Warehouse District... not put in a cul-de-sac!

 

Excellent comparison between AIT and the waterfront loop location.  That is not what this development needs.  Just build a 25 story tower in the middle of the east bank and call it a day Eaton.

I don't think the Flats East/RTA WFL loop location is as horrible as people make it sound.  Remember, it's going to be on the waterfront surrounded by high-end residential & retail development in a high-density, walkable environment...

 

Ehhh, I don't think I really agree.  What the WFL loop site is surrounded by is railroad tracks.  On every side.  As KJP pointed out, bridging can help, but this site is definitely fringe to Wolstein's main project area, not in the middle of it.

 

I really don't like how the big "mixed use" projects are turning more and more into office projects.  Office projects are important for the city for lots of reasons,  but they are way overrated when it comes to bringing vitality.

^but the FEB is not sacrificing residential so that it can add more office space. I wonder if the WFL loop will have its own rapid station.

I don't think the Flats East/RTA WFL loop location is as horrible as people make it sound.  Remember, it's going to be on the waterfront surrounded by high-end residential & retail development in a high-density, walkable environment...

 

Ehhh, I don't think I really agree.   What the WFL loop site is surrounded by is railroad tracks.  On every side.  As KJP pointed out, bridging can help, but this site is definitely fringe to Wolstein's main project area, not in the middle of it.

 

I really don't like how the big "mixed use" projects are turning more and more into office projects.  Office projects are important for the city for lots of reasons,  but they are way overrated when it comes to bringing vitality.

 

I'm torn.  If this project combines an office, hotel, residential with some basic retail, then it could work.

^^I guess your right- it actually sounds like Wolstein has added a lot of units over the years since the first plan was announced.  I am a little worried though that Wolstein and Start, who will be receiving massive publicly subsidies for there projects, may mysteriously find the residential pieces less viable once the shovels are in the ground for the office portion.  I'm probably just being paranoid.

 

More significantly, since I think office buildings are kind of overrated as activity centers, I'd like to see them sited where they can at least have maximum urban design impact- I think Stark has that part right.

^the project has grown because:

 

-construction costs have soared in the past couple of years. They need greater density to break even.

-Wolstein bought out Shaia and his Lighthouse Tower project

-the office market has taken an unexpected turn for the better

Here is the graphic from the article above:

 

 

^^You and your facts.  Where have facts ever gotten us?

 

Edit: in case sarcasm was not clear enough for some readers: ;)

 

I still don't like the loop site though.

I'm a bit leery of the forces that want to "suburbanize" development, for lack of a better way to describe it, in the central city and inner ring. I do hope the term "campus" is a misnomer.

Speaking of the term campus, what's everyone's take on the urban quality of Nationwide's (insurance) campus in downtown Columbus?

 

 

Probably not good.  Have any ground shots?

Its a mega block with some uninspiring architecture. I've walked past it a number of times. Very boring. I'd love to have those jobs though.

 

Not pretty. It does have a cool glass elevator on the side though.

First Stark back's out of the Solon project, and now seems to be preparing the public for dropping out of the warehouse project. I wonder if due to the bank's tightening credit terms, whether he has the ability to underwrite the cost of developing a project of this scope.

 

If the FEB is developed, it makes the cost of developing those parking  lot's even more expensive. I wish there was some encouraging statement from him as to a potential client.

First Stark back's out of the Solon project, and now seems to be preparing the public for dropping out of the warehouse project

 

You interpreted all that out of one email?

If the FEB is developed, it makes the cost of developing those parking  lot's even more expensive.

 

How so? Did Wolstein change his mind and say he wasn't going to provide parking as part of his development?

^I go past the nationwide campus everyday that I work.  Its pretty weird but then again the cities of Cleveland and Columbus are very different and have different feels. 

^I agree. When I took the bar exam in Columbus, I walked by it everyday on the way to the testing site. It felt weird, ugly. The Nationwide campus kind of looks and feels like the indoor atrium of a large Embassy Suites Hotel.

wow, that is one fugly building. is that the chateau d'if?

The PD carried an article back about a month ago that stated he had dropped out of the Solon project.

 

My hope was that he was going to concentrate on the Warehouse project. Clearly, when his company puts out an article about "reassessing" the warehouse project, he's threatening, or  feels  they won't have the anchor they need to go forward with  the project. I'm afraid with Stark, it's and all  or nothing proposition. If it isn't big retailers won;t be interested. I don't know much about him , but from following him and his project's in the past, he only wants to do really big project's. I can't see him doing a parcel at a time. I hope I'm wrong.

 

The Stark proposals has a very high density for a reason. The land is already risen in value because of the evolution of the warehouse district, and his current proposal needs to be able to offset the high cost of the land by packing in as much development as possible.  If the FEB is developed to it's potential, there will not be any large parcels of land in close proximity downtown. It's supply and demand, and what the local market can bare.

 

Stark himself said in wkyc interview, that if he didn't develop the parking lot's he doubted they would ever be developed because of the associated land cost.

 

I think a better Columbus example might be the Arena district, there is a lot of office space down there along with the other crap

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I am new to the forum and this is my first post. 

 

My 2 cents worth:

 

I am very disappointed that both Eaton and E&Y are leaning towards going to the FEB.  To me, this is really having both companies moving out of the CBD to a suburban type of setting.

 

I worked downtown for 17 years and I cannot imagine why a company would want to go to the FEB.  Even though the waterfront line would go through the development, I think it can be considered a remote location since it is not "walkable" to the central city.  It would be too far to walk to a restaurant in the CBD for lunch.

 

One of the big advantages of working downtown is the ability to walk to places to do errands such as banking, drug store, post office, etc.  I don't see having these amenities in the FEB.  Also, the selection and choice of restaurants to walk to at lunch time is another big advantage in the CBD.  I can see Wolstein adding some restaurants, but not enough to overcome the disadvantage of being in a remote location.

 

Don't misunderstand me.  I think that the FEB is a good development for the city, but not at the risk of derailing Stark's plans.  If I had to choose one or the other as being the most important to Cleveland, I would choose Stark's plans since it is so close to Public Square and the center of the city. 

Welcome  :wave:

 

Now, I disagree.

 

I am very disappointed that both Eaton and E&Y are leaning towards going to the FEB.  To me, this is really having both companies moving out of the CBD to a suburban type of setting.

How can you say that when we've only see outdated massing?  No matter what names the WHD or FEB have they are in THE CENTRAL BUSINESS DISTRICT.

 

One of the big advantages of working downtown is the ability to walk to places to do errands such as banking, drug store, post office, etc.  I don't see having these amenities in the FEB.  Also, the selection and choice of restaurants to walk to at lunch time is another big advantage in the CBD.  I can see Wolstein adding some restaurants, but not enough to overcome the disadvantage of being in a remote location.

Downtown will still be walkable.  You speak of amenities, nobody knows what retail stores will be there, so how can you form an opinion? 

 

From what has been written, this is going to be a true mixed use neighorhood.  Speculation is that there will be restaurants, drug stores, a grocery store, movie theater, book store, etc.   Again, no tenants have been announced.

 

This is not like its a mile away, its just down the hill.  If anything the FEB project will erase the divide that the two areas current have.

 

Now thats the real my 2 ¢   :whip:

Don't misunderstand me. I think that the FEB is a good development for the city, but not at the risk of derailing Stark's plans. If I had to choose one or the other as being the most important to Cleveland, I would choose Stark's plans since it is so close to Public Square and the center of the city.

 

I don't disagree with that, but I will wait until I see Wolstein's new massing and street layout for the FEB. Another thing, when a friend was staying at the Bingham, I was surprised to see that the elevator in the lobby entrance off West 9th showed 12 floors. It does, if you include the Flats side of the building. So perhaps a building or two built in the Flats, such as at the old Lighthouse Landing location, will have a pedestrian entrance point several floors up to access the CBD-level off West 9th Street?

 

And let's not forget that the FEB can help influence development creeping toward the lakefront, starting near the mouth of the river and pushing it eastward as the new port facilities are built away from downtown. Yes, the mouth of the river is a remote area now, but it probably won't be that way forever. And like the first settlers of this city, or those who came back to it starting in the 1970s and 80s, there have to be pioneers to cause change. Someone's got to the be first to redevelop where this city began more than 200 years ago.

^ Exactly. The historical boundaries of Downtown Cleveland do not exclude the warehouse district and the east bank of the flats. It is hard to fathom that these areas were once part of the CBD.

I wonder if the WFL loop will have its own rapid station.

 

There was planned to be a WFL station there -- where the line levels off and there are elevated side platform areas -- for a planned Great Lakes Aquarium, obviously never built... No doubt such a station would be built for an office tower adjacent.

 

Welcome to the board, Deanhorn, and I completely agree with what you've said.

No matter what names the WHD or FEB have they are in THE CENTRAL BUSINESS DISTRICT.

 

 

I agree completely.  The FEB project simply develops prime real estate within the CBD.  How many people who work off E 9th are walking to W 6th for lunch anyway?  Besides, there are ways to get to these places without walking...trolley, bus, cab.  Plus the FEB, at least from what I've heard, intends to have the amenities you speak of.

 

The idea is to strengthen downtown Cleveland, which FEB is a part of.  I can see the argument if you think this will just shift things around and thin them out, but the hope would be to create another viable area to work, eat, shop, and live downtown in addition to what is already here. 

I'm with Deanhorn and X on this one, except the FEB supposedly would be incorporating many of those amenities. 

 

I just don't feel it makes much sense (or that it would be the best benefit) that the biggest office seekers be incorporated into (FEB), especially when the biggest one (Eaton) would be placed in a remote part of the development with little benefit to downtown or the surrounding FEB development.  I could see Wolstein incorporating some office tenants into the plan, ideally smaller firms mixed in with the development (or even one larger one incorporated into the development with the rest being mixed smaller with housing and restaurants etc...) 

 

It just makes more sense to me if the larger firms were a part of the Stark proposal so that they are more "connected" to the current Central Business District while allowing an important connection to the flats, thus closing off the horrible open areas of the warehouse district while adding some height near the square and making an important transition from the Central Business District to the Warehouse District to the Flats. 

 

Eaton going on that island just seems like a waste in that regard.  I just think that Starks idea is vital in making the transition that will truly make the FEB a cohesive part of the city.  I fear that with the 2 biggies mentioned going to the FEB that Stark will not get enough to support his ideas.  Its not likely or good that all of the mentioned companies looking at their leases will be moving (would leave the Huntington and other buildings nearly empty)  And who knows when an opportunity for new construction will happen again....   

Why do guys think that the FEB is "so far away"??  I personally don't understand that.  If these thing were going to the FWB, I could understand.

 

I think building the residential, commercial and amenities creates the perfect start to rebuilding a fragmented area of downtown.  Therefore the FEB, TowerCity/Public Square and the WHD become cohesive neibhorhoods within the CBD.

Not that its that far away, but without Starks project it would be very disconnected from the rest of downtown.  First look at the sight where they are talking about for Eaton (a waste for a large tenant to locate, would have more bennefit in any number of places that need rebuilding). 

 

I think Starks plan is more reliant on the office component for it to fit and make sense (and for feasability)  I dont feel the case is the same for FEB. 

Plus you say therefore............  But the WHD wont likely happen without those large tenants.       

  While I tend to think that Stark's plan seems to make the most sense for office tennants, I think it could still be a go without as much class "A" space, or at least I hope it could.  I would love to see either project being built, but I also hate to see one project being srapped for another!  I am hoping that Stark can either A) Find other tennants from outside the city to fill his space or B) scale the office space down a little but still go ahead with the retail and residential.  I just would hate for him to have the "taking my toys and going home" attitude!

FEB is far away for walking, especially on a lunch hour, especially up the hill in a business suit.  Not to mention in bad weather, late at night, or any other combination of things that amplify the average person's loathing of walking.  Because of that, I think of FEB as Downtown but mostly self contained.  I think that Wolstein's development, though great for the city and region overall will have less impact on the liveliness of Downtown itself.

FEB is far away for walking, especially on a lunch hour, especially up the hill in a business suit.  Not to mention in bad weather, late at night, or any other combination of things that amplify the average person's loathing of walking.  Because of that, I think of FEB as Downtown but mostly self contained.  I think that Wolstein's development, though great for the city and region overall will have less impact on the liveliness of Downtown itself.

 

Bingo! There is absolutely no question as to what is better as between Stark's dense, mixed use layout mere blocks from from Public Square, or the sprawled Crocker Park-esque suburban-style business/resdential park Wolstein design. Stark's plan emulates that of a typical vibrant downtown urban center: business and residential stacked on top of one another and bustling street life. FEB seems as if it will be a Crocker Park dropped into the space beneath the hill...disconnected both visually and from a street grid perspective from Public Square and points east.

......or the sprawled Crocker Park-esque suburban-style business/resdential park Wolstein design.

 

You've seen the final design?  It hasn't been published, so how can you form an opinion?

^ I have not. Thats why i said it "seems" as if thats what we'll be getting. Additionally, how likely is it that the final design will vary much from the latest iteration that we've seen?

 

The attraction of Stark's plan is that it builds on top of already existing buildings that currently have a street presence. Its not new construction. We know this much. With Stark's plan, the roots are all already in place. The layout is there. Just add a few major office tenants, some entertainment/retail options, and its all good.

 

Plus, as much as we may argue about whether its sprawl, Wolstein's project is indeed cut off from not only the CBD but Public Square as well. Its hidden beneath a steep incline and a wall of buildings on W. 9th. There is now flow. Its too far from the lake. What kind of city views will there be?

 

Whether its close to the city center or not is immaterial, there is a physical barrier there that interrupts any sort of continuity. If retail/entertainment in fact crops up around the businesses there, I feel this will only serve to emphasize the disconnect, as workers will be even less inclined to make the climb up the hill and into the WHD, CBD, Gateway, etc.

Well, we'll have to disagree

 

I love how before the projected is even kicked off, we point out all the failures.

 

Too far from the Lake?  What kind of views?  Those are questions for the development team to answer.

 

If you think its a physical barrier, how do you break it down?

 

Personally, and this is not a slam at you, I think the points you raise are just excuses to find fault in the project before its even on the boards.

How's it going, everyone?  I'm new to posting, but I've been checking the posts daily for a while now. 

 

My Two Sense, I think you're probably right.  Most of us are being too premature with the attacks on the FEB, but I don't think this is because anybody actually believes that it's a bad development.  Most, like me, are probably just upset over the idea that we might be doing the FEB rather than Pesht, when we could've easily done both.  If I had to choose between the two, I'd take Pesht over the FEB.  BOTH will help downtown, but I believe that Stark would've really taken the already thriving Warehouse District and finally develop it to its full potential. 

 

Let's stop speculating and just hope that Stark will be able to find another tenant.  It's not over until Stark says it is.  He might have some cards up his sleeve yet. 

Welcome Cleveland Pride. Even if Stark doesn't build in the WHD, it won't stop others from doing so, either in the next couple of years or sometime in the future. One of Stark's partners is Tony Asher, who owns much of the WHD parking lots Stark wants to build on. Asher, developer of the 1.2 million square foot Tyler Village and much more, is also tight with the Shaia family (remember Lighthouse Landing?). And then there's Rustom Khouri of Carnegie Management plus James and Larry Kassouf who signed a memorandum of understanding with Stark that they would develop downtown on the properties they own in the manner that Stark proposed.

 

There are a number of developers in Cleveland -- not just Stark or Wolstein or Jacobs, but Maron, Price, Goldberg, Ferchill, Marous and those listed above. Plus there are others who are making names for themselves in rehab projects and smaller-scale new construction. So many players, so many visions and an endless time scale in which to do good things....

Very true, KJP.  It think we all know (with the possible exception of oengus1963) that those aren't going to be parking lots forever.  That's prime real estate, and there is no doubt that they will eventually be developed as Cleveland draws more businesses to Downtown.  I just was kind of hoping that it would be sooner rather than later. 

^^We're all hoping that it is sooner rather than later!!  But it ain't over till it's over.  We;ll have to wait and see what Stark does and not get too judgmental about the FEB project.

Exactly.

i dont get why ernst & young or whoever would want to go in the FEB as opposed to stark's plan. FEB is off the beaten path and not really all that connected with the rest of the CBD. not only that, if they are going with a "campus" it will further de-sensitize downtown and the skyline impact will be minimal since its at a lower elevation/buildings will be shorter but bigger. if you were a company wouldnt you want to be right next to all the action in the best location possible location? the warehouse parking lots are right by public square in one of the best possible locations downtown.

 

 

Last I checked, the name of the game in business is to make money, which usually starts with putting a lid on costs. If Wolstein is offering a better deal than Stark, Wolstein wins.

not only that, if they are going with a "campus" it will further de-sensitize downtown

 

Whoa, c'mon. The sky is not falling. The FEB is not going to be some corporate campus. No one is saying that. The area will have more streets and more intersections than the area currently has. I see what you are saying about how the buildings down there won't affect the skyline. That is valid. But I think we need to remove our urban planner caps and put on our economic development caps for one second (but not really). The FEB is going to be one very interesting and dynamic neighborhood. A supermarket, health club, movie theater, restaurants, neighborhood retail, a bookstore, a friggin light rail line running through the heart of the area, a boardwalk and small park along the river (an area that we could never access before unles we were seated on the back deck of some chain restaurant).  Businesses are signing leases down there because they know that the FEB will be a place where young bright minds will want to be. This is the way to attract talent and grow business. Once businesses grow, then the city will grow. I know that we are not happy that things don't appear rosy for Stark's project, but let's not unnecessary bash and inaccurately portray Wolstein's project.

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