^That's the Rockefeller Building in the background. This view is from West 3rd looking southwest (as though you were looking southwest from 55 Public Square).

^That's the Rockefeller Building in the background. This view is from West 3rd looking southwest (as though you were looking southwest from 55 Public Square).

 

Not the Rockefeller.  I am sorry, I mean to the "left" of the glass building.  It maybe part of or connected to the foreground glass building.  It is part of the Pesht rendering. I ruined my own joke

I really am kind of impressed about how the rendering looks. Love the blue exterior.

 

Way beyond what we've seen from earlier depictions imho.

^That's the Rockefeller Building in the background. This view is from West 3rd looking southwest (as though you were looking southwest from 55 Public Square).

 

Not the Rockefeller.  I am sorry, I mean to the "left" of the glass building.  It maybe part of or connected to the foreground glass building.  It is part of the Pesht rendering. I ruined my own joke

 

Oops, I see what you mean - I can see a resemblance (though it's not likely to have ANY resemblance when built).

It'll be great when we can see a rendering of the project from the Superior side ... how the front of that block interplays with Rockefeller, etc.

It'll be great when we can see a rendering of the project from the Superior side ... how the front of that block interplays with Rockefeller, etc.

 

It will be great when we see cranes!

at first glance it looks just like the superblock stuff i just saw going up in austin. still, i like it fine. looks sharp.

 

hmm, i'd think maybe they could doing something more interesting with the rooftops, especially if residential is in that mix? we'll see. we have lots to mull on here.

 

thanks for posting that mayday!  :clap:

From Cleveland.com

http://blog.cleveland.com/business/2008/05/stark_unveils_new_vision_for_w_1.html

 

Stark unveils new vision for Warehouse District

Posted by Michelle Jarboe May 22, 2008 19:12PM

 

Four years into pitching his downtown dream to retailers, developer Bob Stark is taking a different approach.

He's still animated, pounding the table and gesturing as he describes plans to convert parking lots into dense collections of offices, homes, stores and restaurants. He still sees a $1.2 billion project - what he often calls a "big bang" for the Warehouse District.

^ Link: http://blog.cleveland.com/business/2008/05/stark_unveils_new_vision_for_w_1.html

 

The current description of the "plan" is what I personally thought Stark should be doing in the first place, including the size and scale, the focus on W. 6th and less emphasis on office.

great news.

 

it seems he's being more realistic here while still holding to his grander vision.

 

keep pushing it forward bob, we're with ya!  :clap:

Make it work!

Looking over the list of restaurants that Stark plans to woo, I certainly hope that the chains not unique to Cleveland are not in the majority.  If they are the same restaurants that you can get in Legacy, Crocker, or Eton, they will fail.  Yes, the idea is to get more people to move downtown, but until that happens, no one is going to drive downtown to go to California Pizza Kitchen, when they can get it at Legacy.  Peopl in the 'burbs need a reason to come downtown to eat.  No need to pay to park to eat at CPK.

 

And the tourists aren't going to come to Cleveland and think...hmmm, how about Maggiano's tonight?  No, they're going to end up at places not in their city.  XO, Metropolitan, etc.

The rendering of the block is sort of Crockeresque, even if a few floors taller

For once, the bad economy actually is a plus.  In a good economy, downtown Cleveland's still, apparently, a hard sell.  Which means to me, anyway, that Stark could go on for years, decades, without filling is "grand" super-sized vision for the WHD.  Now Big Bob’s been smacked back to earth/reality to do what I've been hoping he do all along: build piecemeal.  Start small and then create something BIG a la Stonebridge… Fill the gaps.  Lord knows, with the oceans of surface parking swallowing up WHD, there's plenty of space to do so... The mixing in 25% restaurant, initially, and holding out for the "right" retail seems a wise approach.

 

... As for the mini Cracker Park look: I'll take it.  It's mixed use, high-density and exactly what we need.  Most importantly, right now it's doable... All I can say is: FINALLY.  Now, Stark, let's get on with it.  :-D :clap: :wave:

Filling out the Warehouse District

http://www.cleveland.com/pdgraphics/index.ssf/2008/05/filling_out_the_warehouse_dist.html

 

by Joel Downey

Thursday May 22, 2008, 10:02 PM

 

Click on image to download PDF - http://blog.cleveland.com/pdgraphics/2008/05/23FGSTARK.pdf

 

Developer Bob Stark has a new approach for his downtown development.

A few observations:

 

-given the post-FEB office market, I think Stark's new strategy is smart

-I hope the rumors are true that Stark and Jacobs are collaborating. I'd rather have those two projects feed off of each other rather than compete

-should have known this before, but Stark's restaurant plan seems to ignore the fact that we have a lot of interesting restaurants that make downtown a unique place to dine. His chain restaurants will help make downtown a bit blander and will cause some restaurants to go under.

-he is relying too much on restaurants

-I welcome the suburban mall retail stores.

-it will be very hard to sign a supermarket tenant if Heinens ends up in the FEB. Stark needs to understand that his project is not operating in a vacuum

-he needs to start something. Take the Avenue District approach and build something on the corner of the super block.

^I agree with pretty much everything except the grocery store... depending on what it is.  I actually think something like a trader joe's could be an excellent complement to both heinen's and constantino's as they all really have different focuses.

And the tourists aren't going to come to Cleveland and think...hmmm, how about Maggiano's tonight?  No, they're going to end up at places not in their city.  XO, Metropolitan, etc.

 

I am not so sure about this statement Americans love their chains, so do business travelers. I feel like I am in the minority when I am on business to seek out local places.

^I can see how a Trader Joes would work. It really isn't a grocery store, it is more of a specialty store. I also saw Whole Foods listed (and that is what my analysis focused on). I think that would be in conflict with a Heinens. Whole Foods is a specialty store and a full-service grocery store.

If Stark's chain store strategy is going to work, he'll need an active convention center close by.

^agreed.

Though it was the fourth such convention where Stark shared his vision with retail chains and restaurants, he said this year was about moving beyond talk.

 

This thread started over 3 years ago.  Until I see construction vehicles moving in and out of the WHD on a regular basis, its all still just talk.

^Hey now, moving beyond talk means "planning" ;-)

^^ Everything starts off with talk.  And I don't think for a project of this size this is really taking any longer than it would anywhere else in the country.

And the tourists aren't going to come to Cleveland and think...hmmm, how about Maggiano's tonight?  No, they're going to end up at places not in their city.  XO, Metropolitan, etc.

 

I am not so sure about this statement Americans love their chains, so do business travelers. I feel like I am in the minority when I am on business to seek out local places.

Agreed.  Someone is town on business or just visiting may be looking for something they are familar with and know what they are going to get.  I see this as very common.  As much as I personally love the independents, I know there are tons of people that love the chains just as much.  We're not talking about putting in a Ruby Tuesdays though (I hope).  I think CPK, Maggiano's etc. are pretty acceptable. 

maybe, maybe not...but that's not the point.  Until something actually happens, its all still just talk.  Stark was building a new "East side lifestyle hub" just a few short months ago in Solon.  "Crocker Park, WHD, Solon - I'm connecting the metropolitan area with sustainable lifestyle developments here!"

 

OK, sounds good.  Let me know when you start digging holes.  Hmmm...convention, Las Vegas, salesman...

^ I don't disagree with you at all... I'm just saying for a project of this magnitude this is a pretty normal timeframe.

^ Agreed. The problem isn't the talk its "big talk" that puts some people off. I'm glad to hear he has abandoned the "all or nothing" mentality though.

So .. I don't mean to sound like an idiot. But can someone please explain the changes to his plan? I read the article over and over, and I still don't understand what he plans to do differently.

 

Help?

It's scaled back.  And he is starting by focusing more on residential and amenitites.  There will still be still be surface parking in areas that can be developed later.

So he's not going to be building a huge super-block of construction? That will be phased in later?

it's basically the office / hotel component he's nixed.  Look at the graphic on the last page, it shows what's existing (red), what's proposed new (orange and purple), and what is to remain surface lots... for the time being (grey).

Gotcha. Thanks for explaining that, Mickey-C.

My enthusiasm for the project has somewhat waned as I studied the graphic in more detail in today's PD.  It seems to show either surface parking or parking garages on Superior.  I would hope that if it is surface lots, this would only be "temporary" (although in Cleveland this can often mean 20 years).  Still, why not build right up to Superior right now and leave the remain surface parking more "inland" (rather than on a major street).  And if it is to be parking garages on Superior, I would hope the planning commission would nix this life sapping proposal in its infancy.

 

I know this is still only conceptual right now but I certainly do not like those two elements.

I'm a little weary. 

 

For Stark Enterprises to announce Pesht and tout it so much as it did, something had to have been in place and fell through for the plan to be scaled back like this.  In my eyes, it reflects poorly upon Stark.  Don't get me wrong...I'm in support of everything that's positive for Cleveland.  My confidence has been curbed since my expectations were much higher from what was presented to us.

 

This project has gotten some colossal publicity for how much has (hasn't) been accomplished over the years.  At this point, I wish something tangible would be happening.  I think that it was announced way too prematurely. 

 

But, I think that the residential component will work really well, just because of the critical mass of downtown housing going in and rising transportation costs.

^^I hear ya Htsguy, but all that parking on Superior is existing there today- so it's not like he'll be creating any new surface lots.  Though I suppose you could be concerned that a successful phase one will make the remaining surface lots that much harder to develop by making the parking that much more valuable.  I'm actually pretty excited that he's focusing on the residential/retail part which is about 1000 times more exciting to me than the office part.  We already got lots of office part downtown.

^Well, I think this is why KJP and HTS44121 made reference to the fact that the scaled back version is Starks response to Jacob's possibly being a little closer to securing tenants for the PS highrise development.  If that is the cast, i think it is great.  By the way, thos references were made in he Jacobs PS thread.

Also, what's with the proposed supermarket?  There is probably one going into the Flats and Constantino's up the street.

You don't think downtown can support three supermarkets?  :strong:  As long as they're different "brands", people will patronize either a. What they live closest to, or b. Whoever has what they're in the mood for

For Stark Enterprises to announce Pesht and tout it so much as it did, something had to have been in place and fell through for the plan to be scaled back like this.

 

Some of the office tenants went with other projects, the economy and housing market are in the toilet, something fell through all right. Other than not being able to woo some of those office tenants, a lot of this is beyond his control.

You don't think downtown can support three supermarkets?   :strong:  As long as they're different "brands", people will patronize either a. What they live closest to, or b. Whoever has what they're in the mood for

 

I think a constantino's / Heinen's / Trader Joe's creates synergy.  As 3231 and I discussed earlier, throw in a whole foods and starts becoming more competition which I don't think is good for anyone yet.

I think a constantino's / Heinen's / Trader Joe's creates synergy.

 

exactly!  the feb and whd would become the Grocery District.  think of the lightpost banners. 

 

in all honesty, with a tj's and a heinen's, I think the constantino's evolves or goes under.  it is essentially an upscale convenient store with a few extra grocery items.   

I think a constantino's / Heinen's / Trader Joe's creates synergy.

it is essentially an upscale convenient store with a few extra grocery items.   

 

That's exactly what it is... and there is a market for that.  Especially with it's prepared foods, wine selections, lunches, etc.

I think a constantino's / Heinen's / Trader Joe's creates synergy.

it is essentially an upscale convenient store with a few extra grocery items.   

 

That's exactly what it is... and there is a market for that.  Especially with it's prepared foods, wine selections, lunches, etc.

 

It's like Fresh Market vs. Whole Foods in the Shaker/University Heights area.  Fresh Market is much more specialized, and I go there all the time to get specific things so that I can avoid the chaos that is Whole Foods.

I'm guessing this announcement of a scaled back or phased development of "Pesht" is not the big announcement that was put off for the Las Vegas convention. Does anybody have more info on a timetable for that? I'm assuming that we're still talking about  Starks/Jacobs and some TIF district yes?

A few observations:

 

-should have known this before, but Stark's restaurant plan seems to ignore the fact that we have a lot of interesting restaurants that make downtown a unique place to dine. His chain restaurants will help make downtown a bit blander and will cause some restaurants to go under.

-he is relying too much on restaurants

 

Understand the point, but I tend to disagree.  Chains generally don't compete with unique, local-based niche restaurants, esp high end ones (Lola, Johnny's, Metropolitan, etc).  I think he'll be OK, and more eateries in WHD can counterbalance the club-heavy atmosphere.  I look at restaurants like hotels, they don't hurt each other, instead, the more you bring in, the more people are attracted to the area which, in the long run, helps everybody.  I think the synergy will help Stark attract retail.

 

-he needs to start something. Take the Avenue District approach and build something on the corner of the super block.

 

I'm glad Stark has scaled down to get Pesht moving beyond the concept stage.  I'm a little surprised that Stark's model, at least the one in the PD, doesn't have as exciting a signature building as Avenue District, given that Pesht is at ground zero of our CBD's residential/entertainment area and AveD is on the fringes... But again, this is still a concept.  Remember how much FEB has evolved from Wolstein's initial model.  Also, the concept photo is only one of the blocks Stark is filling in Phase 1 ... correct me if I'm wrong.

 

If any of the grocery stores go under it will be the Heinen's in the Flats.  It's not very centrally located to Downtown residents, and that grade change will be a b*tch with an armful of grocerys.

 

Also, when people say "scaled back" are we saying the end product will be smaller?  I didn't get that from the article, rather I understood that the project was really being broken up into phases.

X you are correct.  It appears to be more of a phased approach.  i think the term "scaled back" is simply being used to indicate he's no longer insisting on doing it all at once.

Would love to see a Legal Seafood in Cleveland. H&M and Urban Outfitter would be great; they are huge here in DC. I know Cleveland is against box stores, but how about a new Ikea in Steelyard?  Honestly, you have to limit bus service to some of these areas. Unfortunately, if you are a daily bus rider in Cleveland, you probably aren't going to these commercial areas to shop. Call me a racist or elitist. I am a black man, attended Glenville H.S. and Oberlin College. Yeah, i didn't think so.....  :mrgreen: