I guess there really does need to be a name for convenience and marketing purposes but I hope to god that it doesn't end up being some overly-clever, self-conscious, imitative or cutesy crap.  Too much of that already.  As for imitative names, the one that pissed me off the most in recent-ish memory was "Newport" in Bratenahl- that town is distinguished enough not to have to weakly glom onto the prestige of another fancy place.  That whole development was a bit of missed opportunity for the public but that's a different topic.

 

Of the suggestions offered, I think I like KJP's indian names or the "Docks".  - calls to mind what I think is the best neighborhood name in the city: the "Flats."  Simple, descriptive and distinctively Cleveland.  Only half-jokingly, I'm a big fan of boringly literal names like Newtown (I think the "new" part of Edinburgh has this name as well as lots of other places I'm sure).  MIT once named a dorm "New House" when it couldn't think of anything better.  When they built the next one a few years later, they naturally called it "Next House."  I'm not suggesting this for the phases of Pesht.

 

On the subject of existing Cleveland neighborhood names, what are people's favorites?  I think "Hough" is mine but maybe just because of the childhood association with baked goods.  I think some of the other "offical" neighborhood names sound pretty blandly technical ("Detroit Shoreway"- love the 'hood, not the name) or are never really used by anyone but planners ("Goodrich-Gannett").  Thoughts?

"Tremont" is a nice, sturdy neighborhood name. "Ohio City" (where I live) is kind of cool, but sounds less like a neighborhood than a separate city (which of course it was about 150 years ago).

"Buckeye" is kinda cute. And "St. Clair-Superior," while rather technical, has a very nice ring to it.

 

Others I like:

Edgewater

Shaker Square

Cudell

Collinwood

Old Brooklyn

Fairfax

 

You're right, "The Flats" is amazing.

i'll be more than glad to call it the former port authority!

 

although a bit odd to many of you non-hungarians, and i pity you for being non-hungarian hehe, but i like new pesht, it would certainly ring bells around cleveland with its mega-large hungarian population. not to mention it would be unique, kinda blue collar-y and definately non-suburban sounding, so we dont all have to barf over some corny bland misfire of a moniker.

 

for native american i like manistee too. sounds good, makes sense.

 

finally, as for the french connection that might work out ok. i'll just add that the french usually name the "anse." for example, we vacationed on anse marcel in st. martin in the carribean a couple years ago. so maybe anse or ance cuyahoga? another possibility is baie which is french for bay. baie cuyahoga? i dk but a french name might appeal to the wealthy.

 

so to summarize it looks like the ultimate euro-moniker would be: ance pesht - lol!

 

 

hmm i think harborlight sounds really suburban or it also sounds like a name given to government housing to make it sound not so bad.  id say something a bit more direct like "the docks" or "old port" and whatnot sound better

 

Harborlight is the name of Salvation Army's SRO housing projects.  There is one located on Prospect and 17th.

I have been reading various threads in Urban Ohio for a while now and have finally decided to join in on the reindeer games.

For my first post, I think tipping the hat to history would be appropriate when thinking of a name for this area.

Water Street was a name that was brought up that could be used in some fashion.

Throw in Bank Street as well.

I was thinking there could be a shape associated with it... maybe a triangle or rectangle. We already have two squares, a circle and a quadrangle (Water Street Triangle... hmmm).

The City's Waterfront Plan has the area labeled as Harbor Square.

I am looking at a picture of it right now and North Shoreway comes to mind (as in Shoreway Boulevard). Perhaps North Bank would be better (West Bank, East Bank).

My last suggestion would be North Port.

 

I looked up Pesht on Wikipedia to see if there was a definition for the word besides what KJP told us.

This is what I found:

 

Pest (city)

 

(Redirected from Pesht)

Pest (pronounced pesht) is the eastern, mostly flat part of Budapest, comprising about two thirds of the capital's territory. It's divided from Buda, the other part of Budapest, by the Danube River. Among its most notable parts are the Belváros (inner city), including the Hungarian Parliament, Hősök tere (Heroes' square) and Andrássy út (Andrássy Avenue). – In colloquial Hungarian, Pest is used for the whole capital of Budapest. Pest comes from a Slavic word meaning "furnace,” probably referring to nearby caves where fires burned.

 

History

Pest was an independent city, whose first written mentions are found dating to 1148; however, an ancient Celtic settlement and later Roman settlements existed in the same place. The city became an important economical center during 11th–13th centuries. It was destroyed in the 1241 Mongol invasion, but rebuilt once again soon thereafter. In 1849, the first chain bridge was constructed across the Danube connecting Pest with Buda. Consequently, in 1873, the two cities were unified with Óbuda to become Budapest.

 

See also

• Budapest

• Pest (county)

Musky, welcome aboard!

KJP -

As many other have said, thanks for posting your series.  It's really exciting stuff.  A couple of questions/thoughts:

- In the 1st article, Stark talks a lot about the "Y" of WHD, Euclid & Scranton peninsula, although most of his plans seem to be for the WHD.  Does he have any plans for Scranton or is he just hoping to prod FCE (who I think owns most of the peninsula) in to doing something?

- I'm also a bit surprised at how long the time line seems to be on "pesht" given how critical Stark has been of others' slower time lines.  Sounds like a 20-40 year plan if not longer. 

- Aren't there also going to be tons of environmental issues at the port after they move?

- Finally, any theories on why the PD and Crains *still* haven't reported on this?  Given how much coverage they've given to other big projects (Flats East, Avenue District, Cleve Clinic, Euclid Corridor, etc) it just seems odd.  Maybe I haven't lived here long enough yet to get cyncial about the PD :)

 

j73, thanks for your post and welcome aboard!

 

- In the 1st article, Stark talks a lot about the "Y" of WHD, Euclid & Scranton peninsula, although most of his plans seem to be for the WHD.  Does he have any plans for Scranton or is he just hoping to prod FCE (who I think owns most of the peninsula) in to doing something?

 

He didn't specifically mention any plans or desire to prod FCE or other developers. He has met with numerous developers about his "Y-Cleveland" vision and most likely listed Scranton Peninsula as an area of concern/opportunity.

 

- I'm also a bit surprised at how long the time line seems to be on "pesht" given how critical Stark has been of others' slower time lines.  Sounds like a 20-40 year plan if not longer. 

 

I believe Stark's criticism is directed more at the "lack of scale" of various proposed developments. I suspect a number of these developers have larger ideas in mind of what they want to do in the long term, but have let on only what they want to do next, such as one building at a time. Certainly, K&D Group has longer-term visions for the Flats' West Bank, as their architect Bob Corna said to me in December, noting a desire to build on the parking lots near the Powerhouse and Shooters. But K&D has kept that pretty close to the vest, staing publicly only their desire to finish the next residential tower and renovation of the former Cantina Del Rio. Stark wants developers to dream big like him and articulate it publicly.

 

- Aren't there also going to be tons of environmental issues at the port after they move?

 

Possibly. It depends on how much the fill has decayed over the decades. Much of that fill (especially west of the stadium) dates from before the stadium's 1932 construction. A lot of the surface has been exposed to the elements since most of it isn't paved. The port hasn't done an environmental study, including a soil sample analysis, for that area but will have to prior to either selling or leasing properties for public usage.

 

- Finally, any theories on why the PD and Crains *still* haven't reported on this?  Given how much coverage they've given to other big projects (Flats East, Avenue District, Cleve Clinic, Euclid Corridor, etc) it just seems odd.  Maybe I haven't lived here long enough yet to get cyncial about the PD :)

 

Often when a print media outlet gets scooped, they wait a few months before covering the story, and look for a new angle to develop so they can present new information. I know, I've been there myself, as has every other reporter. A couple of years ago, my predecessor in Sun's Cleveland City Hall beat scooped the PD on a "green building" story about environmentally friendly building standards. The PD picked up on the story about eight months later. The delay was so long that even our executive editor had forgotten about Sun's scoop, and called my predecessor's editor to complain about us not having the story. She reminded him we had the story eight months earlier. That's exactly what the PD was hoping for from the general public too -- that the delay had caused them to forget about Sun's scoop.

 

My series was published during the holidays for two reasons -- 1. it's when there is scant other hard news so the papers could fit the large articles, and 2. during the holidays, most of the people interviewed for the story are out of the office on vacation and many head out of town, thereby making it tough for other media to reach them.

 

It took me more than a month to do all the research for this series, and much of it was predicated on the schedules of the people I needed to interview. For example, when I first called Bob Stark about the story (right after Thanksgiving), the earliest I could sit down with him for the interview was more than two weeks off. I had already heard in September about the Warehouse District development and had spent a couple of weeks researching that, but was unaware of Stark's involvement in it until I interviewed him. So I had a bit of a jump on the research anyway.

 

In other words, the PD and Crain's have a lot of catching up to do. I suspect their article(s) will probably take a more critical angle than I had in my articles, since mine were more of a presentation of Stark's vision. A more critical look is needed. Since there are so many issues and side-issues involved with Stark's overall vision, the PD and Crain's have a lot of phone calls to make and interviews to conduct before they can even start writing their stories.

 

Of course, that's assuming the PD and Crain's reporters have even read the four Sun papers (out of 26) that ran the series. And, many of their reporters were on vacation during the holidays, too!

I actually just found and re-read Litt's column on Stark (May 1, 2005).  He mentions some of the ideas generally ("Stark doesn't own any downtown land, but he wants to work with those who do to fill the surface parking lots in the Warehouse District with a million square feet of high-end shops operated by national and local retailers" sounds like Phase 1 and "Stark wants to work in the same way, eventually transforming dozens of blocks from the Warehouse District north to Lake Erie and from Public Square east to Playhouse Square. He thinks a successful redevelopment there would spill naturally onto the long-fallow Scranton Road peninsula, across the Cuyahoga River from Tower City. This would create a district that looks like the letter "Y" on paper, which is what Stark calls it." sounds a lot like the Pesht part and the Y), but there isn't the level of detail that you had in your series.

 

This article is a bit more critical/skeptical (as you suggest that some future articles should be), but without the visuals and the additional detail (he never mentions the specific block for phase 1, for example) it's hard to really get a good sense of what he's proposing or how likely it is. 

 

I had read that article back when it came out but hadn't really grasped what he was really proposing.  At first I thought they might be waiting for a firmer proposal, but your series mentions a price tag ($1B) and a timeline (open by 2008), so who knows?

 

Anyway, it doesn't really matter, I suppose (well at least not to those of us not in the media :)  as long as the thing gets built.  Thanks again for your series.

Only four Suns...wow I got lucky. Which others besides the Parma Post did they run it in, and why did they choose those four? I think the neighborhood should just be called Pehst. i think it's a great name.

In addition to the Parma Sun Post, it ran in the West Side Sun News, Brooklyn Sun Journal and Lakewood Sun Post. It ran in those papers because they had room between the ads to fit it. But, even then, half of the photos and graphics were never published for lack of space. If you subscribe to the Brooklyn, Parma or Lakewood papers, you never saw the street grid map that conveys Stark's plan. And the Parma paper didn't have room for any of the renderings. None of the papers from our east-side office (including the Sun Scoop Journal for Collinwood) had the article. The East Side office rarely publishes our stuff. I guess they don't think we write anything that their readers would find interesting...

dont worry it kjp -- internet killed the mainsteam media star. ha. you bet they'll catch up to it someday!

Cleveland-area forumers,

 

I highly suggest that you pick up a print version of the West Side Sun News. KJP has an excellent excellent commentary about Stark's plan, Cleveland's negativity, and how to create keep our young, creative minds from leaving the area. 

 

Congrats, KJP.  The commentary was dead on. 

Thanks. It will run in more papers, but Sun columns aren't put on either Cleveland.com or sunnews.com.

 

We also ran an editorial in all our five of our west-side papers (and maybe more that I haven't seen yet) about Stark's plans. Whatever it takes to get the point across.

to all the Cleveland-area forumers,

 

I highly suggest that you pick up a print version of the West Side Sun News. KJP has an excellent excellent commentary about Stark's plan, Cleveland's negativity, and how to create keep our young, creative minds from leaving the area. 

 

Congrats, KJP.  The commentary was dead on. 

 

Please post it here

I don't have dejavue right...  this editorial was an extended version of something you posted on cleveland.com forums right?

thats a nice summary kjp, excellent. i would only disagree that unlike your friend more people in the ne ohio area come out east here and to nyc and etc than chicago or anywhere west of ohio combined. or toronto. esp if the draw of a walkable city is that compelling, which of course i believe it is. for ex, i have three clevelanders on my side of my own building and add to that a longtime cinci next door neighbor who left our building a couple yrs ago. i dont even know the new residents these are just us old timers, i'd bet there are even more ne ohioans coming and going here. something must be drawing us all here? stark and others are saying its time to get with the walkable cities program and i say good for them. the market will indeed make it a success.

KJP, thank you, thank you, thank you for your positivity.

 

And keep churning out the exciting news! :type:

^ You're welcome.

 

I don't have dejavue right...  this editorial was an extended version of something you posted on cleveland.com forums right?

 

Correct.

 

mrnyc, Chicago is just one of the places the brains are draining to. I cited my friend Mark because I knew of his experience. I know there are others, especially involving NYC, but none of my college friends moved there. I wanted to cite an example that was personal to me.

As for the rest of the "Y Cleveland" area -- note the string about Front Street Lofts. I discovered who the developer of the project is -- Victor Shaia. He owns numerous parking lots downtown, including the one on which Front Street Lofts would be built. Other parking lots he owns are on Prospect and Superior avenues in the East 15th area, plus one on West Third Street between St. Clair and Lakeside.

 

And guess what? Shaia and Tony J. Asher (developer of the 1.2-million-square-foot Tyler Village and property owner for Stark's Phase I) are card-playing friends who compete as a team in regional bridge tournaments. Shaia's retail broker for Front Street Lofts has its office in the same building where Stark's headquarters are located, a building owned by Stark.

 

Shaia appears to be part of Stark's Y-Cleveland, along with Carney and possibly Ferchill. I mention Ferchill because he has been a local developer in absentia for too long (thanks in no small part to Mike White!), but the two development sites he is eyeballing are, perhaps not so coincidentally, in Stark's Y. One is the six-acre plot on Scranton Peninsula. The other is the $40 million condo development he let on to, located west of West 9th and north of Front Street. The latter is a pretty small piece of land, so you know how high you'd have to build to represent a $40 million residential project? I'm suspecting that's going to be at least 20 stories -- which is what the Warehouse District master plan shows for that site anyway (in fact, their plan shows two 20-story residential towers).

 

There is an awful lot to keep track. Thus, I think the Downtown Cleveland Projects List needs updating -- and it needs a map that starts with Stonebridge on the west and goes as far as Tyler Village in the east, showing the who, what, when, where and why. I can produce such a map, but it will be a couple of days before I can start.

Then go forth KJP and may God speed!

yea this is getting really really complex, itd be interesting to see it all in one aerial shot, even then just university circle in itself is getting complex too as far as future development/construction

KJP, great editorial and a relevant follow-up to your series!

 

It is kind of ridiculous to see how much there is on the table or nearly on the table in Cleveland for the near future.  We have lots of inspiring projects in the early phases of construction and so much more in the pipeline.  And as positive as I am about everything that I've seen in Cleveland since coming home (from one of those walkable cities that still didn't have what I needed to get my creative juices flowing), I still have to remind myself that I can't get attached to every little (or big) project that comes across the drawing board.  I think that's one of the things that Clevelanders get bogged down in...they see many of them being publicized and may even fall in love with one or two of them, but it's always seemed that more often than not, our big projects don't see the light of day.  And that's the norm anywhere.  People dream a lot of dreams and make a lot of plans before putting their money and resources into risky developments (they're all risky).  But we have to keep our heads up about it and realize that we're poised for some of the most transformative urban development that this town has seen in quite some time!

 

So, I commend the developers, investors, buyers, and so on who are trying and succeeding in making so many of these work in Cleveland today.  I look forward, with much optimism, to the plans of tomorrow and I actively search out ways to contribute what I can to the big picture.  Step one was moving back home.  The next steps will present themselves daily as I continue to uncover more and more opportunities in Cleveland.  If you're not here already, "Come home to Cleveland!" (thanks KJP!)  And if you're already here...spread the word and look for ways to make a difference in your own way.

MGD,

 

Good thoughts.  I hope that we are not too premature about the Front St lofts or Ferchill's project.  Well, we are premature, but I obviously hope that they move forward. 

 

If Shaia's, Ferchill's and Asher's projects all go forward, Cleveland will need to do some serious marketing to make sure that people are aware of them and their potential for creating a vibrant neighborhood.  There will be a lot of product on the market.  Also, I sincerely hope that they market the area as car-free place to live.  In the end, most people will have cars. But, we need to start implanting in people's minds the idea that upscale neighborhoods can coincide with good transit options.  Whether or not they choose to take the rapid, we need people to think that the rapid can easily take you to cool places.

 

After this mini-wave of projects, I would hope that developers start designing some of their units so that they are appealing to young families.  Many young people can buy into this area, but they may leave in a few years if the neighborhood doesn't provide viable options for young families. 

 

In regards to Asher's design for the West 3rd-6th mega block, I would like to see a semi-circle of open space at the corner of West 6th and St. Clair.  Currently, there is no place where you can sit and people watch.  It would not have to be a large space, but it would be a great location where a ground floor coffee shop could open out onto small plaza that is equipped with chess tables, benches and a focal point for a street performer.  As the warehouse district is currently set up, the streets don't invite the pedestrian to stop and look around.  The district needs a central area where folks can arrange to meet before going to a restaurant or just sit and eat lunch. 

A funny (but not crazy) idea hit me when you mentioned the need to get the word out, Wimwar.  With all the talk of friends, peers and others who have left town for the big cities of Chicago, New York, Boston, SF, and the like, why not take out a couple ads in the real estate pages of their major dailies?  Imagine the eyes of apartment/condo hunters as they peruse a page of Trump Towers and Park Slope Brownstones for homes and see "new construction: 2,000 sf lofts with waterfront and Downtown views...starting at just $200k!"  They'll defitely read on and discover that this project (picture included) is in Cleveland...but think about it... Maybe 1 in 10 readers have ever been to Cleveland.  And maybe 1 in 10 of those 10% are from Ohio and would ever consider coming back.  But imagine the curiosity that would arise and the word-of-mouth as more and more of these pop up.  Seriously, if Stark expects to pull some tiny (but significant) percentage of Northern Ohio to live in "Pesht," why not expand that to include the wayward Clevelander in L.A. or London who knows deep down that Cleveland is home!

i've heard in a number of presentations from some of these same developers that "if the cleveland area doesn't grow at all, there is demand for 30,000 units (or people - i've heard it both ways) downtown over the next 10 or 15 years."  I think that all of these projects are chipping away at this number - 200 units here, 200 there.

 

but for the "pesht" idea to really work, then i agree there should be advertising in other cities and in national publications - ie. wall street journal real estate section.  have you every seen how many ohio properties are listed in these pages - usually 0.  the region and the city need to think big and not just plan on poaching the new residents from the already existing population in the local suburbs.

 

has anyone actually seen the data on the study i mention above?

Cool idea! I would expect Stark to advertise in Erie, Akron, Youngstown, Toledo, Canton and maybe even Columbus.  Your idea would make an interesting marketing campaign for Cleveland.  Instead of saying "hey, come and visit the rock n roll capital!", it would may be more effective to advertise the city via a condo ad.  Come live within a 5 minute walk of RR HOF, baseball, Lebron, the nation's second largest theater district, lakefront, riverfront, tod, etc. 

 

Overall, Cleveland does a poor job of marketing itself.  There are so many people that move here each year to work in the Clinic or UH and none of them are told about the cool neighborhoods that we have.  So many of the people working at the Clinic live in the suburbs and therefore don't think about showing off our hipper side.  We lose so many newcomers because they are not properly introduced to Cleveland.  When my wife interviewed at UH, their tour of the Heights was pretty poor.  Oftentimes, UH or the Clinic loses resident physicians to hospitals located in cooler cities.  We will never be Chicago, but we are much better than the stereotype. 

 

Cleveland needs a group that could provide marketing/tours/relocation info to the major companies that bring in people from outside the region (Clinic, UH, Progressive, Sherwin Williams, etc).  Otherwise, they will probably just receive pamphlets from the developers that are busy building cluster homes out in Solon.

In response to Wimwar's comment, I would like to believe that serious employers who really want to court talent would have some sort of arrangement with local realtors.  Unfortunately, until recent years, the major realtors in town had no Cleveland presence.  PURE was really a pioneer in this regard, but the big ones are following suit and opening offices in town, which should definitely lead many of those "new to cleveland" types to actually get tours of city neighborhoods.  Whether or not they're any good, I don't know, but there's a major incentive for those realtors to be the best at what they do!

^Agreed, agreed. I think the first step in all this, though, is to better educate the people who already live in "Greater Cleveland" (i.e. the burbs) about what's here. They are often as clueless about the city as out-of-towners.

Using just a few of the terrific photos by UrbanOhio forumers, how about something like this to appear in suburban and out-of-town publications and other marketing material...(scroll right)

 

Love it, KJP! Ship that off to the powers that be!

Yes, very well done, KJP!  I wonder if any of these developers/realtors/officials are reading this thread and thinking "damn, it may be time to hire these people!"  Seriously, we're good at what we do!

There probably should be separate slightly different campaigns for Suburban Cleveland and then What we would say send out to other metros.  Just for example the one room apartment for $600 is not what I would lead in with for folks out in the burbs.  Not saying that isn't a good deal considering where it is... it's just not what I'd lead with.

May I make an offer to spiffy up our mock-up?  :-)

I think we could all do well to make our own... new thread anyone?  This could be fun... a sort of poster or post card competition.  We could really make something of this!

Sounds good - let's put this thread back on track. I'll make a new thread in the Urbanbar for our poster competiton  :-)

OK, back on track with Pesht..

 

I feel that Asher's phase I would be the most important project in downtown Cleveland.  Personally, I am not a big fan of the WHD because of the parking lots. It is not a good urban experience at the moment. But, imagine a 4-way intersection with mixed-use structures at each corner. Filling in those lots will create a greater experience of city life to pedestrians.  Its all about the experience.  If you feel good in an area, you will want to return.  Seeing Public Square across all those lots really kills the experience at the moment.  I know that I am not saying anything new.  I am just hoping that this project moves along quickly.  We need it to. 

 

Also, residents need a place to hang out on the street.  It would be nice if we could bring the sidewalks out and eliminate a lane of traffic each way on West 6th between Lakeside and St. Clair. Create some places where people can sit and relax.  Maybe even create a long and narrown fenced in area that could serve as a dog park.  We need to bring people out onto the streets for reasons other than drinking. 

Wimwar, I'm with you on street narrowing in WHD: more sidewalk (and trees) and less street. 

 

Not the same topic, but I was always puzzled by the 4-6pm parking ban on big downtown streets.  As much as the city seemed to want people to stick around after work, the transport policy was to get everyone out as quickly as possible.

May I make an offer to spiffy up our mock-up?  :-)

 

Yes, by all means MayDay! Do you need any of the original images, or are you OK there?

 

I will post the image as part of a new thread in the Ohio Business & Economy section.

Wimwar, you probably read in the PD that Chris Ronayne considers that Phase I site as the poster child for developing parking lots downtown.

 

Amazingly, the Warehouse District's master plan allows for significant density in that block, even with a set-aside for greenspace. How much density? Consider that the Wolstein development is 20 acres, and would have 340 housing units (plus retail, cineplex, etc). The Front Street Lofts would offer another 212-278 units (plus a little more retail).

 

The WHD's master plan allows enough density for the Phase I block to build 500-600 housing units (plus retail, structured parking, greenspace et al) -- on just 8 acres!

 

In other words, that block offers to increase the residential and retail population by as much as the Flats East Bank and Front Street Lofts combined, but on 1/3 less acreage. It would make a major difference in making the Warehouse District a truly viable urban neighborhood.

 

I like the idea of narrowing the streets for wider sidewalks. Perhaps the wide streets in that neighborhood made sense back when there were lotsa trucks maneuvering to dock at the various warehouses. It doesn't make sense anymore. Come to think of it, I'm surprised the streets are wide at all, given that that neighborhood grew up in the era of the pedestrian city, when streets were narrow and blocks were short.

 

Hopefully Stark has in mind some narrow but bright alleys for peds only, lined with lots of brick, ironwork, mom-and-pop shops and bistros.

This is partly a shameless bump, and partly motivated by what I saw in a photograph posted at MayDay's www.ClevelandSkyscrapers.com

 

In this photograph, you can clearly see the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers' Confined Disposal Facility on the north side of Burke Lakefront Airport. This picture was taken in 2004. When I interviewed the project manager for the Corps a few months ago, he noted this CDF site has about seven years capacity remaining and will need another CDF (such as the new port island)...

 

http://www.clevelandskyscrapers.com/cleveland/cleskyrichardwyner.jpg

Very interesting articles.  Thanks for posting, KJP!  There's nothing there that we didn't already know, but it's refreshing to see that print media appealing to different markets is giving the issue of redeveloping Cleveland attention.  Of course, I object to some of the statements about how bad Downtown is, because it only reinforces the idea that there's nothing going on in the city RIGHT NOW (when I don't believe that's true), but statements like these ("In Cleveland, for example, much of the Flats District is played out, Tower City is in the doldrums, the Galleria is on life support, and Euclid Avenue lacks only tumbleweeds to complete its fall from grace.") make the remainder of the article more poignant. 

 

It's also nice to see the breadth of developers that are apparently committed to urban development.  I need to see more "money where your mouth is," but the fact that they're all talking the talk right now is at least a good sign.  What we need, though, is collaboration amongst them.  I really have been sold on this idea that we can't just be content to build infill or a block here or there...and many of you know how it feels to WAIT and WAIT for development to take place over decades...so with collaboration amongst developers and leaders and monumental building projects, a critical mass of new development can really bring our Downtown and our city to the level that we all believe it can achieve.

 

 

Sounds familiar...but more like a watered down version of KJP's series! 

 

Still, it's good to hear that talk is heating up.  Developers can talk all they want, though.  They need to shake hands, sign paperwork, submit proposals, contract out, and start building!

I'm glad office space is included in the project, the lack of class A office space downtown will make it difficult to attract/retain tenants. Right now, I think the key building is the only class A building. 

Mr. Stark is in talks with principals of Weston, the Solon-based real estate empire

 

:?

Am I a dummy for never hearing of this empire before?

 

I'm glad office space is included in the project, the lack of class A office space downtown will make it difficult to attract/retain tenants. Right now, I think the key building is the only class A building. 

I thought Sohio and Terminal were also, but I could be wrong.

Mr. Stark is in talks with principals of Weston, the Solon-based real estate empire

 

:?

Am I a dummy for never hearing of this empire before?

 

 

Weston is one of T.J. Asher's companies. He's the guy that owns many of the parking lots in the Warehouse District. He also owns a company called Greystone, which is redeveloping the 1.2-million square foot Tyler Village complex off Superior in the East 30s. The Asher family has been big into commercial development nationwide and in Canada for many years. They are a well-moneyed outfit.

"I'm glad office space is included in the project, the lack of class A office space downtown will make it difficult to attract/retain tenants. Right now, I think the key building is the only class A building."

 

That's incorrect. There are about a half-dozen class A office buildings.

I knew you'd have the correct info, MayDay! 

 

It's an interesting subject, though.  If you look at the stock of vacant and obsolete office space Downtown, the number could drop significantly with conversion to housing.  See 1001-1021 Euclid and the Dollar Bank Building for examples of this. 

 

I doubt there will be a push to renovate many of the mid-century office buildings into new office space that haven't already been already.  On the other hand, there appears to be a niche office market that isn't met Downtown that developers are seeing a demand for with the conversion of loft/warehouse space and historic buildings (see Realty One and the Idea Center) and with new construction like Stonebridge and the proposed Flats-East Bank that are a part of a new, exciting mixed-use development.  This is what Stark would be aiming for and I think that we could see these well-leased by more creative sector companies (architects, design firms, techs, & start-ups). 

 

The question, then, would be where they'd be coming from...we don't want to be luring companies out of existing Downtown office space.  Then again, we want them to have an exciting Downtown option if they're looking for new space as well...

"The BP building, one of the city's three skyscrapers (and only one of two Class A commercial properties)" Ny Times 9/28/05 "Cleveland Pulls Back From the Edge"

 

I would assume the other one is the key tower. What other buildings do you think are class A? I've heard that class determinations can be subjective, so maybe the Times is wrong.