You would put a halt to this project because you can't park and grill before a game? I HAVE heard it all. i hope this is a joke man...

 

Cleveland needs every project that comes by it. It has so much potential all over it but its the people with that kind of attitude that hold it back. In order to create a dynamic city you need dynamic thinking. This project must succeed.

Ryan, fer crying out loud, check the smilie at the end of that last post.

And please, move back to the city from Hinckley as fast as you can (I know your parents uprooted you)! We need people with your energy and Cleveland pride living in the core.

I thought Blinkers sarcasm was as obvious as the rash on my.....uh...I mean obvious

^ Apparently not, and besides, it was glutmax who was doing the "saracasting" -- not B12.

I stand corrected....rash gone!  :-)

Developer gets downtown deal

Stark secures control of land for Warehouse District project

Thursday, May 18, 2006

Christopher Montgomery

Plain Dealer Reporter

Developer Bob Stark has taken a major step toward his dream of building a massive, $1 billion mixed-use development in Cleveland's Warehouse District.

 

Article Removed

Nice! First, the Cavs, then news that Stark is moving forward with Pesht... it's a good morning for C-town.

(Although I had assumed that this agreement between Asher and Stark was already in place, if not formalized.)

Never assume anything. This is a huge step forward. He wanted it done before he went to the shopping center convention in Las Vegas and he was able to do it.

 

Securing financing (or at least a large portion of it) is his next step. But having Asher as a partner puts more deep pockets into play. I wouldn't be surprised to see a development plan submitted to the Historic Warehouse District's Design Review Committee before year's end, at least for the Power Block between West 6th and 3rd. There is a possibility however that Stark may wait until Cameron's property is in the fold. Then he could submit both blocks at the same time.

 

And, BTW, congrats on the PD scooping me!

KJP, just to refresh my memory: This doesn't include the parcels at the NE and SW corners of the lot, right? The check-cashing place and the old Titanic theme restaurant?

Correct. Those are the only two parcels in that block that Asher doesn't own or control. I just checked the auditor's records and the ownership hasn't changed.

 

They are small portions of the block, and Stark/Asher can probably proceed without them. Perhaps he might even consider keeping the building at West 3rd and St. Clair. But that parking deck at West 6th and Superior has got to go!

I am glad that the surface lot at the NW corner of St. Clair and W.3rd is part of the development.

^ I missed that part of the article! But it makes sense since Asher has that property as well. And now Stark has a piece of it too! Also, Stark shows it on his rendering of the Power Block area (on the lower right-hand side of the image below)...

 

I'm surprised there hasn't been a bigger reaction to the Stark/Asher agreement. In the grand scheme of things, this is far more important than what the Cavs are doing. But unlike that happy turn of events, this isn't generating dozens of postings on internet forums. I guess we Clevelanders are a skeptical lot -- but if anything warrants skepticism it is our sports teams! Apparently development projects just don't capture the hearts and souls of the average Clevelander. I guess that's why we're development geeks around here....

It's featured on the front page of wkyc.com - I'd say that's a start :-)

KJP or anyone, would you say that the next tollgate for this project to become a reality is Stark securing a few big name retailers for this project?  If not, what else would be the next progression that is necessary in order to keep this thing moving?

^ i think there are a few other parcels he needs to buy or lock up to keep it moving:

 

"Stark is still seeking development agreements on other key parcels in the project's footprint. That property includes a parking lot owned by Los Angeles investor Duane Cameron that covers about half a block on the southeast corner of West Ninth and St. Clair. "

 

the more he controls the better off he will be for vegas and his meetings with the retailers.

 

 

He's still working the political angles to educate downtown stakeholders, as well as elected officials at the city and county levels. But I'd say the next specific toll gate for him is to get his preliminary design and engineering numbers ready for presentation to the city and to investors. Don't expect him to deliver his plans to the City Planning Commission with a couple of major tenants signed by that point. He may have letters of intent in hand, but that's far from a commitment. He's seeking financing for this development almost entirely on market speculation. It's not the first time he's done that....

 

When I covered for Sun the evolution of Crocker Park from rumor to opening, Stark started out with an engineering cost estimate (which was $150 million at the time -- it became $420 million). He had a chunk of land for which he had an option to buy. And, ultimately some letters of intent from some retailers. That was what he had in pocket when he sought approval from Westlaker voters to rezone the land as a planned-unit development. The fight was absolutely brutal and expensive. Jacobs spent $1 million to defeat his plan, but Stark spent $2 million, and Stark got his rezoning was approved. Only then did he seek leases from tenants and finalize his incredibly extensive design package for the city to approve.

 

I think Stark fears community apathy more than he fears a tough fight. And, for those who think Stark can't handle a tough fight to get a development project approved should read this article in the next message....

 

When I covered for Sun the evolution of Crocker Park from rumor to opening, Stark started out with an engineering cost estimate (which was $150 million at the time -- it became $420 million).

 

 

Why the great disparity between the original cost estimate? Did the scale of the project grow beyond what he based his original estimate on or was the length of time from inception to completion so great that material and labor costs rocketed up before he could lock in a price? I know nearly every project has runs over it's original estimate (I think Boston's "Big Dig" was originally supposed to cost something like $2 billion and ended up around $14 billion for a variety of reasons), but does a history of cost overruns cause financiers to get weary when approving a project or does a history of ultimately successful projects with letters of intent from retailers  and pre-sold residential units assuage their fears?

It seems like the downtown project should be an easy sell, especially when compared with Crocker Park. Everyone's talking about how to breathe life into downtown, and the Warehouse District lots -- particularly the "power lot" -- are pretty much the answer.

 

The only opposition I foresee would come from Justice Center employees or other downtown workers (suburbanites) who will freak out about losing parking. People in this town get nervous if they can't actually *see* their parking, even if the proposed project would in fact add spaces (see the debate over the Hicks lots in Ohio City and over the Lighthouse Landing lot in the Flats). Stark needs to make it clear from the get-go that his project will actually be adding parking to downtown. I hate that parking even has to be an issue, with 3 1/2 train lines and innumerable buses running within a block of the site, and with offices and housing built in. But such is the way of this corner of the world in 2006.

Actually, it is my experience that Justice Center employees are probably some of the biggest users of public transportation downtown and if they do drive they seek out the cheap out of the way lots, not those in the heart of the warehouse district as most are not that highly compensated.  Also, I cannot see a bunch of suburbanite parkers taking the time and effort to "organize" to protect some parking spaces.  As is always the case they will always find some place else to park.

 

That said the retail component will clearly be the hardest part of this proposed project.  Except for perhaps 7 or 8 major American cities, all downtowns have trouble attracting or retaining downtown retail for a variety of reasons (check out what our friends in Cincy and Columbus are saying about downtown retail in their threads).  I am glad to see somebody making the effort and taking the risk and wish Mr. Stark all the best.

I second the point that this project would not be the biggest construction project ever in Cleveland.  That has to go to the Cleveland Union Terminal (aka, the Terminal Tower).  Not only the monetary amount, but also the sheer scale.  According to the Encyclopedia of Cleveland History, over 1,000 buildings (homes, churches, commercial buildings) were demolished to create the terminal complex.  At the CSU library, there's some amazing archives that show the area before the terminal complex was built, and it really allows you to see how the development literally changed the face of the city.  Stark's development, while grand in scale, is not going to be as massive as the terminal complex was.  Check out the Cleveland Union Terminal collection at CSU ... http://www.clevelandmemory.org/cut-coll/

 

Cornercurve, I had a more detailed response that got lost when my f*cking computer froze (again!), but short answer is I can't account for the reason why CP tripled in price.

^You might want to try hitting or kicking your computer when it acts up. Seriously. My brother is a System Administrator and if he has a computer that repeatidly gives him problems, he smacks it (not the $100,000 mainframe servers though :-D)  and, believe it or not, it will sometimes actually work. I've tried it too and have fixed the problem maybe 30% of the time just by hitting it! I can't explain it. Plus, it just feels good.

 

NOTE: Following this advice may void the warranty and cause worse problems than you had before. CornerCurve assumes no liability for your actions.

 

And the white zone is for loading and unloading only.

 

Have a nice day.

 

If it happens it would be the biggest downtown project ever.

 

It would NOT be the biggest downtown project ever, as WKYC states. Any time one desires to make a statement like that, it should cause a little twitch inside you to desire to double check it. All one has to do is look at the Terminal Tower complex to question that statement. The answer to that question is that the Terminal Complex cost $179 million in 1930 -- that's $1.6 billion in today's dollars. C'mon media. This isn't that difficult.

 

Well I completely agree that this isn't the "biggest" downtown development in the city's history, and I consider this statement to be quite hyperbolic. However, I think compared to developments within the last few decades it is probably the "biggest" or at least the most transformative project to date. And obviously the Terminal Tower, Group Plan, and Gateway were immensely significant , however in terms of retail and residential this may be the "biggest" project yet in the city's history. I personally believe that this development will have transformative impact on downtown second to that of Terminal Tower when it was completed in 1930. I also see a bit of comparison between the Van Sweringens and Robert Stark. Like the Van Sweringens, Robert Stark seems to understand the connection between downtown and the suburbs, mixed use developments, good planning, ambitious goals, and public transit. Both parties seem to rely on intituition. The Van Sweringens are famous for saying "do it right, and don't worry about the money." I think Bob Stark is the one retail developer in Cleveland- unlike Forest City, DDR, First Interstate, or Jacobs- that comes close to this philisophy.

Note from an enginerd.  If smacking an electrical device makes it work better or worse 99% of the time you have a loose wire.

 

I am a geek

I was wondering if throwing my computer out the window of my fifth-floor condo might help in some way. I've certainly been tempted to try!

 

Vulpster, you're not the first person I've heard make that comparison between Stark and the Van Swerigens. But you are the first person who has said it in writing. I was discussing this topic a few days ago with a friend of mine after Stark got the RFQ to develop at the end of the Blue Line.

 

Back in the 1920s, the Vans developed a graphic showing Greater Cleveland with all these communities linked by rapid transit and had the tag "Rapid transit means rapid growth." But I think one important difference is that the Van Swerigen brothers weren't married and thus had no children to carry on their legacy after the brothers died. Of course, the Great Depression blew down the Vans' house of cards, which was built on one promise of paying a debt on top of another. They didn't own very much which they could liquidate to pay off their debts.

 

Read the book "Invisible Giants" by Herbert H. Harwood Jr. which chronicles the Vans' rise and fall. It gets into the genius of their financial dealings, but also shows how they became vulnerable to the Great Depression. In remembering what the book said, there certainly are some comparisons between the visions of the Vans and Stark for the city. I only hope that we avoid an economic collapse like what halted the Vans' grand vision for Greater Cleveland. My father, who was born the same year as the stock market crash, once said Cleveland didn't start recovering from the Great Depression until the 1980s. I couldn't agree more.

If things start rolling for this project as fast as they seem, when would it actually be inhabitable?  It seems that the Avenue District and even the Flats have a chance at having cranes in the area a heck of a lot faster than this project.

^ Certainly the Avenue District would, and potentially Flats East Bank. Both are city-approved projects, although some architectural details with FEB may have to go through the City Planning Commission (not the landmarks commission as, amazingly, the Flats was never declared an historic district). Look for units at the Avenue District and FEB to become habitable by 2007-08. If Stark/Asher submits a plan for the WHD by the end of this year or early next year, that project could come habitable by 2009.

 

Consider the first half of this year as "the calm before the storm." If the nation's economy holds up, there's going to be a lot of construction crews and cranes downtown for a while.

Oh man, this is all very exciting! I am keeping my fingers crossed that it works out, even though I'm not really sure I know what "Pesht" would be like. I can only assume it would be very similar to what Stark has done in the past. I've only been to his recent East Side developments, and I enjoy them. What I think is the promising thing about Stark doing this development is his company's recent ability to design places that are classic yet hip. So, even though I am 24 and my parents are in their 50s, we both enjoy going to Eton Collection (mostly because I know I'm going to get a free dinner out of the deal, score!). But I like the atmosphere. And that is a very small location. It's really just a hyper-glorified strip mall.

 

But, man, having a big two-story Barnes and Noble downtown would be so sweet. I'd be there all the time.

 

As far as the East Bank of the Flats goes, I'm having a hard time envisioning that one, but I still hope it is a big success. I read that they almost want it to be like a Midwestern Vegas. That sounds tacky to me, but, hey, party on. I worked in Port Huron, Mich. (outside of Detroit a bit), and I don't see any big pluses coming from casinos in terms of nightlife. They turn into coffins where no one comes out. And you have no idea what time of day it is inside there. And the Elvis impersonators. Yech. But if someone wants to spend their own money to build one, why not?

Welcome aboard, Jamiec. If you like Eton, I think you should check out Crocker Park. It's much closer to being an actual urban-like neighborhood, even if it seems somewhat contrived. Check out the pics of Crocker Park elsewhere on this site.

 

As for Flats East Bank, this is likely to be even more of a neighborhood than some Midwestern Vegas. No casinos are proposed to be part of it (at least not yet!). There's supposed to be a grocery store, movie theater, lots of shops and restaurants, plus some 340 units of housing.

 

Sometimes we post maps, photos and renderings in different message strings that are scattered all over this site. So in the interest of showing how all these projects fit together, here's a couple of salient diagrams...

 

This is a site plan of the Flats East Bank, with Vic Shaia's Lighthouse Landing and Kassouf's Cuyahoga Lakefront Condo sites thrown in (all three of these projects are discussed elsewhere in their own strings here):

 

 

You've probably already spotted this next image from earlier in this string, but I thought I'd post it here with the other so you and others could scroll easily back and forth to see how the two might mesh:

 

 

There's other diagrams and pics posted here, including those of other pending, possible or poseur projects. Not sure where Shaia's and Kassouf's projects fit in with those descriptions, but it's likely that Shaia's is legit while Kassouf's may not be, though he insists it is. We'll see!

Thanks for the welcome! I just recently found this message board, and I love it. It's so great to see a little Ohio pride. I love our state!

 

Anyway, thanks for the info regarding the East Bank -- I must have misunderstood what I read when I mentioned putting a casino down there.

 

But here is a question for you all: Do you think all this retail development can be viable downtown? I really, really, really want to see it happen and flourish.

 

One of the big things I think they need to be thinking of is safety. I think Cleveland is a relatively safe city, but in order for them to attract the suburbanites, these projects need to be committed to safety and upkeep for the long haul. I think the minute things start to get just a slight bit seedy, people lose interest and go elsewhere. For example, when I was little, my family used to drive up to Tower City from Cuyahoga Falls on the weekends as our fun family trip. My sister in law has young children, and her family used to do the same thing, but now that many places have left Tower City, they don't do it anymore, which is a shame because coming to Cleveland can really be a fun, special and different experience. Although you can shop at many of the same stores elsewhere, it's just not the same as coming downtown.

But here is a question for you all: Do you think all this retail development can be viable downtown? I really, really, really want to see it happen and flourish.

 

Everyone here really, really, really wants to see it happen and flourish too! And I personally think that it will. "Pesht" and the East Bank development and the Avenue district, as the big three downtown housing projects on the drawing boards, will guarantee that scale and variety of retail will expand to service the growing resident base. Not to mention the expanded housing options will attract downtown office workers who may have been waiting for the right time or the right development to move from the suburbs downtown and eliminate their commute. In other words:People=Retail.

 

One of the big things I think they need to be thinking of is safety. I think Cleveland is a relatively safe city, but in order for them to attract the suburbanites, these projects need to be committed to safety and upkeep for the long haul. I think the minute things start to get just a slight bit seedy, people lose interest and go elsewhere.

 

Well, there's a program that started up this year, funded by a self imposed tax on downtown businesses, to do just that. It's a crew of people that go around downtown, cleaning up the area and helping visitors in need. More needs to be done, but its a great start and fantastic that the business owners are taking a chance to really invest in the city above and beyond what they have to. :clap:

 

You can read more about it in this thread and scroll to the bottom, where there's a link to a clip they had about it on WKYC:

 

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=7355.0

 

And welcome to the forum!

One of the big things I think they need to be thinking of is safety. I think Cleveland is a relatively safe city, but in order for them to attract the suburbanites, these projects need to be committed to safety and upkeep for the long haul.

 

"Pesht" is about building a new community of people who live, work and shop downtown. It won't be as dependent on suburbanites as Tower City or the Galleria were, and therein lies the plan's strength. Any retail project that depends on people driving up from Cuyahoga Falls is doomed to founder.

On the contrary.  There is no way that a downtown population of even the 50,000 that Stark would like to see is going to support the 1 million square feet of retail he has planned, not to mention all the other retail already downtown and planned in other projects.  They'll certainly help.  They will give a steadier base than Tower City enjoyed.  But they won't be nearly enough to make this thing successful by themselves.  Pesht will still depend on people driving up from Cuyahoga Falls.

http://www.cleveland.com/business/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/business/1148286708156840.xml&coll=2

 

Developer tries luck in Vegas pitching Warehouse District

Monday, May 22, 2006

Christopher Montgomery

Plain Dealer Reporter

 

Las Vegas -- It should become a little clearer this week whether developer Bob Stark will be able to pull off his big plans for the Warehouse District.

Pesht will still depend on people driving up from Cuyahoga Falls.

 

But it won't depend entirely on it, as Tower City and the Galleria did. Having a real community around it is what will make it viable.

This is the text of a radio-broadcast piece on the convention.....

 

Developers To Pitch Plans In Las Vegas   

05-22-2006 7:27 AM

 

(Las Vegas, NV) -- Dozens of local developers will roll the dice this week, trying to make retail projects a reality. They'll be in Las Vegas for the International Council of Shopping Centers convention. It's the largest show for the retail real estate industry, drawing 950 companies and 36-thousand daily visitors. The biggest local project that will be pitched will be a proposed one-billion-dollar development in Cleveland's Warehouse District. Developer Bob Stark wants to turn three parking lots into stores, offices and apartments.

 

Copyright 2006 Metro Networks Communications Inc., A Westwood One Company

It's so fun to see this actually taking shape!

It's interesting though, that for a project of this scale and potential to really change downtown Cleveland a great deal ... the local media is pretty much downplaying it.  But that's true of all these projects that we're talking about.  Perhaps it's that they're taking the cynical view that it "ain't gonna happen, so why talk about it?" but I'm hoping that if Stark can land some major retailers that hopefully there will be a buzz growing about this and other projects, and not just from us on this board!

I can't blame the media for taking a "wait and see" attitude for this. Many projects get proposed -- few get built. A number of people in my office have asked me if I really think this is going to happen, as if I would know somehow! When I see construction cranes and buildings starting to rise, that's when I'll tell them "yes, I'm pretty confident this project will happen" but not until then.

i believe in detroit, we call that the skipper's rule

I can't blame the media for taking a "wait and see" attitude for this. Many projects get proposed -- few get built. A number of people in my office have asked me if I really think this is going to happen, as if I would know somehow! When I see construction cranes and buildings starting to rise, that's when I'll tell them "yes, I'm pretty confident this project will happen" but not until then.

 

I agree...when those crains go up....it will be a free for all.  Nobody will want to be "left out".  Stonebridge has already created a neighborhood on the West Bank very quietly yet executed well and strenghthened the area to become its own neighborhood - not "just" a part of Ohio City but "the West Bank of the Flats" AND they are still adding on to the project.  I think developers know that they waited "too long" to try to jump on the band wagon over there.  The East Bank, HWD and parking lots WE ALL HATE will be targets for development further strenghtening the regions core.

 

Once The Avenue is in full construction mode and RS starts its reno (and turns the top floors condos) I'd bet MayDay's prized camera the chesterfield and the Statler will be right behind with condo plans - and I wouldn't be surprised if they aren't already planning to switch over.  Not to mention some of the smaller apartment units that have popped up all over the place.

 

Although, I don't live downtown and would NOT be interested in renting I wonder if any buildings currently offer "rent to own" deals

Hey KJP, any idea on what specific retailers he is looking to bring into phase I?

 

 

Although, I don't live downtown and would be interested in renting I wonder if any buildings currently offer "rent to own" deals

 

I am pretty sure the pointe at gateway has that.  Checkout progressive urban real estate

Hey KJP, any idea on what specific retailers he is looking to bring into phase I?

 

I asked him that a couple of weeks ago. He said it was too soon, as he was concentrating on site control and working the political angles (mainly to inform politicos of his plans).

Hey KJP, any idea on what specific retailers he is looking to bring into phase I?

 

 

Although, I don't live downtown and would be interested in renting I wonder if any buildings currently offer "rent to own" deals

 

I am pretty sure the pointe at gateway has that.  Checkout progressive urban real estate

 

I have to correct that .  I meant I WOUDN'T be interested, but perhaps someone else might be.

I would not recommend smacking your computer equipment around...

 

I would highly recommend though, that you get a Mac with OS X on it.  While no computer is immune to issues, it has been my experience that Macs are less likely to have hardware issues that require smacking them around than some of the PCs (Dell, Sony, Toshiba, HP, Compaq) that I have had to deal with.  And now that Macs can run Windows, you don't have to worry about not being able to run an application here or there.

 

Just my two cents on computer malfunctions.

 

Of course, KJP, if you were running a Mac with OS X on it...then I'll just shut up now.  :-D

 

 

 

 

Ahhhh...if only Stark would incorporate RTA and the city into the plan for a mass transit plan as well....

Developer pitches Warehouse plan to retailers

 

Vegas conventioneers hear from other locals about projects here

 

Wednesday, May 24, 2006

Christopher Montgomery

Plain Dealer Reporter

 

Article Removed

This is sounding very positive!! Thanks for the update. And this is the first time I heard discussion of turning the Main Ave Bridge into a lowered boulevard and moving the lakefront rail underground. Both excellent ideas in my opinion.

can this be merged into the "Building "Pesht" - Cleveland megaproject" thread in the Project and Construction section?