This ought to be moved to the Cleveland Pesht thread....

Sounds good to me.

"I would highly recommend though, that you get a Mac with OS X on it."

 

Amen!  8-)

This is unbelievably exciting! :clap:

wow this is great news.  i wonder if wolstein has had the same amount of luck with this convention

my only fear is that there should be 10 efforts like this going on for different properties downtown.  as inevitably happens, some projects don't work for various reasons, but 1 or 2 go forward.  so if you have 10 in the pipeline, at least 10% get built. 

 

until there are cranes in the air, i'm very skeptical, but i hope that others can build on this excitement and actually make projects happen.

"he didn't need a market study to gauge the viability of his project"

 

those sound like famous last words...

 

But hey, no need to be a wet blanket!  This sounds like great progress!

Well, there's not much of an existing market to study (aside from the few thousand people already living downtown, who would clearly support the project). He's creating the market.

 

Don't be a wet towel, MGD! ;)

Good point...do you mean "wet-nap?"  :-D

"he didn't need a market study to gauge the viability of his project"

 

those sound like famous last words...

 

But hey, no need to be a wet blanket!  This sounds like great progress!

 

I was stopped by that comment as well. Financiers may force him to conduct one. But then, there's been a number of marketing analyses done, including by CSU and the HWD. Both show there's still a lot of untapped demand. And, as often happens, once downtown reaches a certain threshhold, it will create its own momentum. At the rate we're seeing projects pop up, I think we're getting close to that threshhold.

 

But I continue to be worried about interest rates, the rising price of oil and its impact on the construction process. Apparently we're not there yet where these have hindered projects, although Marous claims District Park is in suspension because of the cost of steel. I have to wonder if they're being honest about that, given all the other projects that are moving forward.

^I thought the real story behind District Park was that they didn't get enough pre-sales. At least that's what Arne Goldman told one of our classes last year. I'm sure the steel thing didn't help either.

 

I wonder how much of a factor residential pre-sales will be in Stark's development. If he had his way, he probably wouldn't be bothered with what I'm pretty sure he would consider a trifling matter -- but the banks here loooove their pre-sales.

As Stark has stated before, he's looking at attracting percentages of the regions overall population.  Say trying to get 1% of 3,000,000 is his goal.  That's 30,000.  One hell of a thriving neighborhood in the Warehouse District, and I don't think getting 1% of the population is that much of a reach.

I just hope Wolstein's plan blends more into Stark's Warehouse District than it seems so far.  The other plan to build two condo towers by a currnet land owner on Wolsteins will conceived surface parking lot at the corner of W9th and Lakeside, is a critical point of connection between the two mega projects.

Here's a pic that was posted on Cleveland.com briefly -- of Stark at his company's booth at the Las Vegas convention...

 

http://members.cox.net/neotrans2/stark0524.jpg

Steel is still high, but it has been stable for about a year.  Copper, on the other hand is CRAZY high.  It now costs 1.25 cents to make a penny,  No joke.  Nearly all welding consumables are made from copper, so while steel remains steady, the cost of any manuacturing or construction keeps continuing to rise.

what is the logo?  a "Y" ?

and the tag line?  "The downtown experience"?

what is the logo?  a "Y" ?

 

Wheeeew, I though it was the Greyhound logo for a moment

 

"Changes that the port would be involved in, if the full scope of the development is realized, include lowering the Main Avenue Bridge and turning it into a boulevard, moving the railroad tracks on the lakefront underground and moving the port operations from their current location. "

 

I am glad to hear that lowering Main Avenue is being genuinely considered by the Port.  I had feared that it was just a nice idea put into the renderings, with no buy in from those who could make it happen.  Is this the current plan for the Lakefront Boulevard, or is this an extra idea that needs to go through ODOT's planning process?

 

some interesting news to pick around at in that article:

 

Developer pitches Warehouse plan to retailers

 

Vegas conventioneers hear from other locals about projects here

 

Wednesday, May 24, 2006

Christopher Montgomery

Plain Dealer Reporter

 

Las Vegas......Stark allowed this reporter to sit in on one of his meetings with a representative from a major national retailer on the condition that the retailer not be identified. Also at the table were T.J. Asher, president of Weston; John Carney, chairman of the Port Authority; and Valarie McCall, Mayor Frank Jackson's chief of government affairs. On the back wall of the room was a wall-length photograph of downtown and the lakefront looking east that provided a handy visual reference.

 

i was about to say, where's the mayor? but with carney and mccall there....that'll do!  :wink2:

 

 

....Over about 15 minutes, Stark described his vision in his usual animated style, raising his voice and using his hands.

 

oooh he's ghetto. heh. good approach. i like that!  :mrgreen:

 

 

....Carney said he is there to assure retailers that the Port Authority board has considered Stark's plan and is "working with him to achieve it."

 

Changes that the port would be involved in, if the full scope of the development is realized, include lowering the Main Avenue Bridge and turning it into a boulevard, moving the railroad tracks on the lakefront underground and moving the port operations from their current location.

 

anyone catch that part? wow that was news to me. now we're talking. bury that sucker. build over it. pretty cool for the future commuter/rapid wfl. fantastic idea.  :clap:

 

 

 

 

"Changes that the port would be involved in, if the full scope of the development is realized, include lowering the Main Avenue Bridge and turning it into a boulevard, moving the railroad tracks on the lakefront underground and moving the port operations from their current location. "

 

I am glad to hear that lowering Main Avenue is being genuinely considered by the Port.  I had feared that it was just a nice idea put into the renderings, with no buy in from those who could make it happen.  Is this the current plan for the Lakefront Boulevard, or is this an extra idea that needs to go through ODOT's planning process?

 

 

I should know this, but the cold meds are making me cloudy.

I believe the restructuring of the Main Avenue Bridge was part of the Waterfront Plan. Of course, being part of a plan does not mean it's happening... particularly if ODOT is involved. However, the city could use the innerbelt craziness as leverage to have something done with with the WD portion of the Innerbelt.

 

The more I think of it, I know there was significant discussion about that part of the bridge during the Lakefront Plan Advisory Committee meetings... I just don't recall if it made it in the plan.

 

 

Punch, you know what the "Y" is all about, right?  For those of you who don't, there's a nice explanation of the "Y Cleveland" theme, in the second post on the second page of this thread...it's the first article in a series from KJP and it really introduces this whole topic quite well!

 

I just hope Wolstein's plan blends more into Stark's Warehouse District

 

I agree and I've had some worries about this...

Here's a graphic from the city's Lakefront Plan, which shows part of what's envisioned for the Shoreway. You can see the Shoreway intersecting West 3rd Street at grade...

 

anyone catch that part? wow that was news to me. now we're talking. bury that sucker. build over it. pretty cool for the future commuter/rapid wfl. fantastic idea.  :clap:

 

That's actually not the first time I've heard about building over those tracks to help connect the lakefront to downtown. I think one of the submissions the the "Lakefront Plan" design competition at Kent's CUDC had a pretty impressive illustration of an arching grassy field constructed over the railroad tracks. The only difference was I believe this was more by the Malls and not the warehouse district, but I remember being impressed with the scale and the imagination. A gigantic grassy expanse over the railroad trumps 50 pedestrian bridges in my book. I've looked around some and haven't been able to find where those images have gone off to. I'll look some more and post them if I come across them.

 

Also, the more I read about Stark, the more I love his tenacity. He's taking his pitch to build downtown to people with the kind of outward energy you really need to rally all the troops you need to see this project through. Hopefully he can keep it up while finishing all three sections of the "Y".

 

 

The Lakefront plan shows an at-grade crossing on W. 3rd.  Stark's plan shows at grade crossings at W. 3rd, 6th, and 9th.  That would be awesome.  But I am wondering how the bridge would have to be altered to make it happen.  Main Ave through from W. 9th to W. 10th would become a cul-de sac, as well.

X, I wasn't sure about that, checked other graphics, and sure enough, you are correct!

 

I don't think the Shoreway "surfacing" in the Lakefront Plan is enough. It's got to at least come down to street level by West 6th. But I don't like Stark's idea of having it come down to street level at West 9th, however. I really like walking or driving on lower Main Avenue with the bridge overhead. It adds a grittiness that I hope won't be so sanitized from all the new development downtown.

 

That being said, I also hope the Shoreway will have an at-grade intersection with East 9th Street and an extended East 18th as well. That would probably have to be in a second phase. I think the WHD Shoreway section should be done first, IMHO. That would require demolishing the existing bridge at least from West 6th to just east of West 3rd. In that case, traffic would have to temporarily detour on West 3rd while the old bridge sections are demolished.

Well, there's not much of an existing market to study (aside from the few thousand people already living downtown, who would clearly support the project). He's creating the market.

 

I agree that Stark is creating a market. Starks approach- which is the right one- is to do something on a scale that would be extremely transformative to cure the region's perceptions of downtown that could turn it into a vibrant place. I think what Stark is talking about could draw on a lot of people from the suburbs, nearby cities, and possibly be supported by a lot of tourists or extreme out of towners.

 

It amazes me how many of my peers from the suburbs and college express that they want to live in big cities like Chicago or New York simply for the quality of urban living with great restaurants, nightlife, shopping within walking distance of where they live. What is more amazing is how they travel to these cities, spend money, become enthralled, and perhaps move there, but they never go downtown Cleveland. Where does New York and Chicago get all of its new residents, shoppers, visitors, etc? From all over the world, but I think if you were to look at how much money and people from Ohio are funneled into these cities, I think it would be a compelling number. That is your market research right there. Make Cleveland a smaller version of New York and Chicago and it will thrive. There is demand for those cities by the majority of Ohioans, so why not build this Pescht in Ohio? So many people from Ohio want a product like that closer to home. Stark's approach at touting it is the best mixed-use site in the country is not really that smart. His approach is common sense.

"So many people from Ohio want a product like that closer to home."

 

It's been my observation that they do and they don't. Sure, people love that intangible vibe of the livelier areas of Chicago, NYC, etc. But then they balk at taking public transportation, or the background din that comes with a higher population density. They love the areas where people live in modern high-rises with glamorous shops but then can't understand why they should have to pay to park (monthly or otherwise). Lord knows they love spending money at little boutique shops but would never be able to fathom why they should have to pay more than $700 a month for a one-bedroom apartment just around the corner from said boutiques. It just amazes me that there can be such a disconnect as to why things aren't the way they should be in Cleveland.

 

^ I think Mayday, when these people visit places like that, they leave saying "this is a great place to visit, but I don't think I could live there." 

Mayday...I think you hit the nail on the head with parking and public transit.  That is the main thing that people bitch about when they move from anywhere in the midwest to Chicago. They bring a car with them, and think that they are going to live the same car oriented lifestyle that they had before.  After circling blocks looking for parking time after time, having rear view mirrors knocked off, getting scratches on the bumper from parallel parking, paying for city stickers and higher tag fees, getting that first, second and third street cleaning/fire hydrant ticket...etc...they complain about the city and city life.  It usually always ties back to problems with driving and owning a car.  Once you let go of that notion, your life becomes much better.

 

Unfortunately they can't let go of it.  Detroiters are actually the worst...If I had a dollar for every young kid with a Big SUV with Michigan plates or U of M sticker in Chicago, I'd be rich.

true mayday, it will be a learning experience in a sense for some. i dont think a more vibrant downtown cleveland is going to change any hardcore suburbanite's mind. but hey they will still have their burbs. nothing you can do, some people just dont like the city, any city, other than to visit.

 

however, if pesht can be built out along with everything else, downtown can capture some of the money that these suburbanites would be spending out of state in the big cities. thats the best you can do with the hardcores.

 

otoh, other suburbanites will certainly be more tempted to stay put in ohio and to move downtown. downtown will be so much more taken into consideration as an option of a place to live than it is today. thats what stark et al are counting on.

 

I can't say for certain that if Downtown was as bustling as envisioned in current plans that I would have stayed 10 years ago, but I would have been much more likely and I would have been more eager to come back.  True, part of what drew me back here was the desire to be a part of positive change...something that I felt so detached from in NYC... But I'm also an urban planner and I can't expect others to want to return to or stay in Cleveland for the same reasons. 

 

There is an innate desire in so many of us to get out and explore the country/world and I don't think that will change regardless of how happening Cleveland is.  However, if we give people a slice of what they like about other cities here, on top of what we already have going on that others may not, then we'll be able to retain and lure more people to live here.  This goes for jobs and employers as well.  If Cleveland is identified as one of the cities that people have on their list of places to consider (for living, working, starting a business, retiring, whatever) and it's not just for people who grew up here and have families here, then we'll be making huge strides.

 

I think Stark's plan, in addition to Wolstein's, Corna's, Marous's, Zaremba's, and so on are just the ticket...

Who's Corna?

My thoughts exactly though, MGD. Sure, some people don't want to have to walk anywhere. But lots do -- especially those in their 20s now, who grew up watching "Sex and the City" and aren't planning on getting married and having kids at 23. And if we have vibrant downtown, we can start attracting people who -- gasp! -- aren't from here.

Who's Corna?

My thoughts exactly though, MGD. Sure, some people don't want to have to walk anywhere. But lots do -- especially those in their 20s now, who grew up watching "Sex and the City" and aren't planning on getting married and having kids at 23. And if we have vibrant downtown, we can start attracting people who -- gasp! -- aren't from here.

 

WEll, some of us 40 somethings who grew up here, that can't get married legally  :x, have been WAITING for downtown to blossom!  We're hip, established and "in the know" with the financial resources to live comfortable in a a vibrant, dense multifaceted downtown!

 

It aint always about you young'uns!  lol

 

Corna is Price's (Stonebridge) architect of choice.  He also is the guy pushing the roof for the stadium.

Sorry, I often confuse the architect and developer over at Stonebridge.  Now that Price is working on Reserve Square as well, I'd better get it right!

 

MTS, you're absolutely right...Downtown Cleveland should be the one place where everyone can find what they're looking for in a neighborhood...young, old, single, married, even with [gulp] kids!  I know we're a long way from promoting Downtown Cleveland as a place to raise kids, but I can see it happening. 

 

As many of us who attended Tuesday night's Young Professionals Advisory Committee meeting (part of the new Downtown Cleveland Alliance) heard, Philadelphia has seen a major turnaround and now has many families living in Center City Philly, even some who attend public schools!

I was just in Philly a few weeks ago (took Acela :clap: from NYC 1 hour) and was surprised to see how vibrant the center city is now.  It was great!  I don't think there is any reason Cleveland can't duplicate Philly's success...although I think Philly has a much bigger public transit/walking culture being east coast and so compact.  It will take a while to change that car culture in Ohio.

^I agree -- we can definitely do what Philly did.

Already, being in downtown Cleveland at lunchtime is an exhilirating experience, especially when the weather is nice. Hundreds of people out walking around. We just have to make that happen after 5 p.m. -- and now we have some great ideas for how, after seeing the Downtown Philly Alliance's presentation at the Downtown Cleveland Alliance steering committee thingy this week. I can't tell you how inspirational that was.

One thing Philly is doing though is also marketing itself to the gay crowd like crazy.  Montreal has had that same strategy for many years now, and I think that is what Philly was emulating.  Philly really seems to be trying to change the entire culture and thinking of the whole city.  Cleveland will need to also try to think outside of the box in that respect too if a change is really going to happen.  The racial crap needs to be addressed and dealt with, and it wouldn't hurt to have a gay friendly rep either.  Both are signs of a progressive city that is changing.  The new bricks and mortar are wonderful...but a new attitude to go along with it would be truely refreshing.

I was just in Philly a few weeks ago (took Acela :clap: from NYC 1 hour) and was surprised to see how vibrant the center city is now.  It was great!  I don't think there is any reason Cleveland can't duplicate Philly's success...although I think Philly has a much bigger public transit/walking culture being east coast and so compact.  It will take a while to change that car culture in Ohio.

 

Transit is the Key. NO city can truley be a world class city without a world class transportation system!  However, Philly is still the arm pit of america!

 

One thing Philly is doing though is also marketing itself to the gay crowd like crazy.  Montreal has had that same strategy for many years now, and I think that is what Philly was emulating.  Philly really seems to be trying to change the entire culture and thinking of the whole city.  Cleveland will need to also try to think outside of the box in that respect too if a change is really going to happen.  The racial crap needs to be addressed and dealt with, and it wouldn't hurt to have a gay friendly rep either.  Both are signs of a progressive city that is changing.  The new bricks and mortar are wonderful...but a new attitude to go along with it would be truely refreshing.

 

You are so right.  Even the advertisements for "old town" and "historical philly" have gay men dressed in period garments in the advertisments.

 

I think cleveland can do the same.  I can't tell you how many gay men i would see downtown when TC was really kickin'.  It was like one big club

One thing Philly is doing though is also marketing itself to the gay crowd like crazy.  Montreal has had that same strategy for many years now, and I think that is what Philly was emulating.  Philly really seems to be trying to change the entire culture and thinking of the whole city.  Cleveland will need to also try to think outside of the box in that respect too if a change is really going to happen.  The racial crap needs to be addressed and dealt with, and it wouldn't hurt to have a gay friendly rep either.  Both are signs of a progressive city that is changing.  The new bricks and mortar are wonderful...but a new attitude to go along with it would be truely refreshing.

 

Totally! I suggested that Frank Jackson legalize gay marriage in Cleveland to get our "pro-gay buzz" going. We have this new bathhouse going in downtown! Let's keep going! I'm not even gay, and I think Cleveland should be a lavender city -- or something.

 

As far as the racial stuff goes....What would you suggest? Cleveland doesn't seem to be any different than anywhere else I've ever been. New York has more mingling just because of its population size. The rich white people still segregate themselves.

Nice one, KJP. :)

 

Downtown redevelopment shaping up

Thursday, May 25, 2006

By Ken Prendergast

Brooklyn Sun Journal

 

Developing two large swaths of surface parking in downtown's Warehouse District is only the first phase of what Bob Stark envisions for downtown. That first phase got a big boost recently when Stark signed a development agreement with Tony Asher, who owns one of the large parking areas.

 

Article Removed

Totally! I suggested that Frank Jackson legalize gay marriage in Cleveland to get our "pro-gay buzz" going.

 

Although that sounds like an interesting idea and I'm all for marketing Cleveland to the gay demographic, I don't think he could do that legally since Issue One, the gay marriage amendment, passed in 2004. I know the San Fran mayor did it, but I don't believe there was any law on the books explicitly forbidding it in California at the time. Plus, I think we, as a city and region, have a lot to offer a gay audience regardless.

 

Guys like this make me optimistic about this city. I mean here's a guy working it hard for his city. He doesn't need this, I am sure he's got money he hasn't even folded yet. But here he is working some trade show in Vegas talking about his city. Believe me he's doing more in one week promoting Cleveland than the Growth Assoc. will do in a year. I am hoping people like Stark/Corna/Wolstien are successful in their projects-we need more like them.

Also, I wonder if BStark would let me have that photo of Cleveland behind him-it would look sweet in my living room. Just a thought.

There has been some considerable news on the project I came across that is posted on Stark Enterprises website. The fact they are posting the press on the project on their website seems like a good sign to me, because in the past when in came to press about the downtown development they posted very limited press on their website. http://www.starkenterprises.com/news.php

 

 

Stark sets his sights on reviving downtown

Cleveland Jewish News, June 1, 2006

BY: DAVID SEARLS

 

 

"It's about that buzz you get in urban places like Chicago and New York." Bob Stark, CEO Stark Enterprises 

Robert Stark's goal is simple: "Rebuild a city."

 

Article Removed

 

 

Ambitious Downtown Development Project Proposed

WCPN Aired May 22, 2006

 

http://www.wcpn.org/news/2006/04_06/0522warehouse.html

 

Local developer Bob Stark is courting national retailers this week at the International Council of Shopping Centers Convention in Las Vegas. His goal is to lure interested partners in a proposed $1-billion downtown Cleveland development. It's a proposal some say is the most ambitious downtown project ever. ideastream's Mhari Saito has details.

 

http://www.wcpn.org/news/2006/04_06/images/warehouse/warehouseMap.gif

 

Warehouse District development map (new projects in red)

Image courtesy of Stark Enterprises

 

 

 

 

 

 

^Who knows what the red buildings actually are (-new or new/renovated), but if this image is correct don't understand what Stark would want to change about the strip of buildings existing between St.Clair and Frankfort on W.6th.

The image is not correct. Stark doesn't want to demolish any buildings. When I asked Stark about the strip of buildings on the west side of West 6th between Superior and St. Clair, he said the map was in error. I made the correction on the map I posted on page 2 or 3 of this thread.

Are the interior greenspaces shown on the St. Clair/W. 3rd St. superblock going to be street level plazas, or roof decks?

I believe they are to be roof decks.

hmm so theres a building in the spot where district park was supposed to go?

The architect (Bialosky) of that street grid graphic was instructed by Stark to show the street grid and extend it to the lake, then put some buildings between the streets to show how downtown can be filled out. Thus, don't take the size, locations and layout of the buildings as gospel. They were merely shown as an example of a built-out downtown, not a specific plan for those buildings. That part will come later.

momentum and property owner names being named!?! - excellent news and great work kjp.

 

oh and you too bob stark - lol!