Let me interject my favorite tag line of all time: "Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell."

 

Instead, plan it, marshall it, access it, focus it and sustain it. Then we can decide if a given sample of growth is good or not. But just because something is growing, doesn't necessarily make it good.

 

I will never be confused with someone who advocates sprawl, but population growth (regardless of how it occurs) is a good thing.  A growing population for the Cincinnati MSA allows the city and region to attract new things that it may not have been able to before.  We have an IKEA under-construction, and that is an example of what I'm saying.  Not only that it gives the major league franchises a better chance to succeed by experiencing a growing fan base.

 

It may be crap growth, and certainly it is bad for our built environment and all of that stuff.  But a growing population and economic base allows for a region to grow and attract new and different things.  Hopefully you guys understand what I'm saying....and don't go crazy over this.

Let me interject my favorite tag line of all time: "Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell."

 

Instead, plan it, marshall it, access it, focus it and sustain it. Then we can decide if a given sample of growth is good or not. But just because something is growing, doesn't necessarily make it good.

 

I will never be confused with someone who advocates sprawl, but population growth (regardless of how it occurs) is a good thing.  A growing population for the Cincinnati MSA allows the city and region to attract new things that it may not have been able to before.  We have an IKEA under-construction, and that is an example of what I'm saying.  Not only that it gives the major league franchises a better chance to succeed by experiencing a growing fan base.

 

It may be crap growth, and certainly it is bad for our built environment and all of that stuff.  But a growing population and economic base allows for a region to grow and attract new and different things.  Hopefully you guys understand what I'm saying....and don't go crazy over this.

 

Are you being anti-urban?  I'm just kidding and agree with you - ideally we could force the development inward, but it is still good that the population is growing.  I still think there might be some built in boundaries with the Cincinnati and Dayton set-up and even Lexington to the south. 

 

Hopefully there will be a breaking point for sprawl, maybe gas price, commute time, or a desire for a living experience in the city in which you reside as opposed to the Anytown, USA feeling of far flung suburbs but who knows?  There is not much of an appetite for smart growth locally, but it seems at some point there will probably be some federal policies that promote this.

Let me interject my favorite tag line of all time: "Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell."

 

Instead, plan it, marshall it, access it, focus it and sustain it. Then we can decide if a given sample of growth is good or not. But just because something is growing, doesn't necessarily make it good.

 

I will never be confused with someone who advocates sprawl, but population growth (regardless of how it occurs) is a good thing.  A growing population for the Cincinnati MSA allows the city and region to attract new things that it may not have been able to before.  We have an IKEA under-construction, and that is an example of what I'm saying.  Not only that it gives the major league franchises a better chance to succeed by experiencing a growing fan base.

 

It may be crap growth, and certainly it is bad for our built environment and all of that stuff.  But a growing population and economic base allows for a region to grow and attract new and different things.  Hopefully you guys understand what I'm saying....and don't go crazy over this.

 

Jesus, you and that IKEA. Why don't ya move to West Chester so you can shop there everyday and get it out fo your system. It's a f'n Swedish Wal-Mart.

 

Example: The IKEA in Potomac Mills, VA is next to a Wal-Mart. I can't tell the difference between the two with all that surface parking. ;)

^??? What is your problem? He only said it as an example. Anyway i agree with him also. Not only will it bring in things that were never here before, It also raises wages somewhat and the Government sends more money to the region.

There's some good daytime population change info at the link below.

 

http://www.clevelandfed.org/Research/Regional/Trends/2006/Jul/population/daytime.cfm

^??? What is your problem? He only said it as an example. Anyway i agree with him also. Not only it bring in thing that were never her before It also raises wages somewhat and the Government sends more money to the region.

 

I don't have a problem, just making an asessment you probably don't like.

 

My point is this: What would you rather have...a successful downtown retail center linked to rail due to city/metro growth (by which no Ohio city has)...or another strip big-box in the burbs? Is this really a good example?

 

And how does an IKEA help raise wages? Is everyone in Cincy metro making $8.25/hr.?

^??? What is your problem? He only said it as an example. Anyway i agree with him also. Not only it bring in thing that were never her before It also raises wages somewhat and the Government sends more money to the region.

 

I don't have a problem, just making an asessment you probably don't like.

 

My point is this: What would you rather have...a successful downtown retail center linked to rail due to city/metro growth (by which no Ohio city has)...or another strip big-box in the burbs? Is this really a good example?

 

And how does an IKEA help raise wages? Is everyone in Cincy metro making $8.25/hr.?

 

Well its not an either/or situation....you can have a "successful downtown retail center linked to rail due to city/metro growth" and still have the sprawl that exists everywhere (see Chicago).  Every city (US and most developed cities around the world) have sprawl...some use it to their advantage (Indy being the closest example) and others do not (Cincy, Cbus).

 

IKEA is not going to change the world...but guess what it is a MAJOR draw and puts your city on the map for those that travel long distances to shop at the place (Bass Pro Shops is a similar example).  People from Louisville, Lexington, Dayton, Indy and Cbus will all travel to Cincy should they wish to shop at an IKEA or other place that is few and far between.

 

They are coming to the Cincy Metro and not any of the others...and that is saying a lot especially starring down the recent success of Indy.

There's some good daytime population change info at the link below.

 

http://www.clevelandfed.org/Research/Regional/Trends/2006/Jul/population/daytime.cfm

 

I checked that out, and noticed that Cincinnati did in fact have the largest percentage increase in Ohio, but that would be expected considering the city is only 300,000 people in a MSA of 2 million (well, actually, that could be unrelated). Ditto with Pittsburgh. Still, both cities were only in the 30-40% range. I bet at the peak of Cincinnati and Pittsburgh, the daytime increase was close to 100%, maybe even more. Some cities in North America today still approach that...

 

It was really interesting to see Columbus, Toledo, and Louisville lagging behind. At least they posted an overall increase though, unlike some cities...cough...cough...Detroit.

 

 

It'd be really interesting to see how Dayton and Akron size up (smaller office markets). Anyone have numbers?

 

Firstly, I highly doubt Pittsburgh and Cincinnati had higher "daytime population increases" as a percentage of city population at their respective "peaks"... which I assume you would define as sometime 100 years ago.  This is because the core cities had much higher populations and the "suburbs" were much less populated.  There was also much less mobility.  So the cities would have had higher total daytime populations... but not higher daytime percentage increases.  The concept of daytime population increase is very new... so there is no historic data. 

 

Secondly, no major city experiences a daytime population increase of 100% of more as you stated.  The highest percentage increase amongst cities over 250,000 is Washington, DC... with a daytime percentage increase of 71.8.  Pittsburgh ranks 4th, with a daytime increase of 41.3%.  Cincinnati ranks 9th with 31% increase.  Interestingly, Detroit has a daytime population increase of -0.1, effectively making it a bedroom community. ;)

 

Having a high percentage daytime population increase is a function of being an "artificially" small city in a comparatively big metro... and having a rather centralized regional economy and strong employment base in the core city.  Pittsburgh, with its 150,000 jobs downtown and the 3rd largest employment center in Pennsylvania in the Oakland neighborhood (universities, hospitals)... while only comprising about 15% of a metro population of about 2.5 million... fits this mold perfectly.  Boston and DC are similarly situated... Cincy slightly less so. 

 

Cleveland and Buffalo, etc. are small cities within comparatively large metros... but have less percentage daytime population increases because their regional economies are more decentralized/suburban and their core cities play a comparatively smaller role in the regional economy.

 

Detroit is a twice the size or more of Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, etc... but is still less than 1/5 the metro population.  It is a very special case in that the regional economy has largely evacuated the core city... and more people leave the city for work than enter the city for work.  The regional economy is clustered in a series of suburban edge cities that ring the outer stretches of the metro.

 

Cities like Columbus and Indianapolis have comparatively small percentage daytime increases because they comprise huge areas and comprise nearly half the metro population.  People working in Columbus are more likely to live within the gigantic city limits... and those commuting from outside have less of an impact on the daytime population because the city population is so much larger with respect to its regional economy.

 

Daytime Population Changes for some Ohio notables:

 

Akron 7.3%

Athens 42.9%

Beachwood 123%

Blue Ash 209%

Canton 19.4%

Dayton 27.9%

Gallipolis 94%

Hamilton -2.6%

Kent 0.5%

Lakewood -28%

Lordstown 201.4% (thank you, GM plant!)

Mansfield 24%

Marietta 49.5%

Middletown 4.1%

Perrysburg -10.7%

Portsmouth 28.3%

St. Clairsville 16.8%

Salem 34.3% (MayDay's hometown!)

Sandusky 9.7%

Steubenville 37.4%

Toledo 5.1%

Warren 17%

Wooster 37.1%

Youngstown 15.4%

Zanesville 32.4%

 

http://www.census.gov/population/socdemo/daytime/2000/tab03.csv

Secondly, no major city experiences a daytime population increase of 100% of more as you stated.

 

I'm referring to some smaller cities, certainly none of the major ones.

 

Lordstown 201.4% (thank you, GM plant!)

 

there ya go!

 

 

Then you're talking about some really small cities... the largest city in America to have a daytime population increase of 100% or more is Redmond, Washington... with a resident population of 45k.  Redmond is one of only 5 cities in the country over 25k that have a daytime population increase of 100% or more... all of which are suburbs or "satellite cities" within major metropolitan areas.  Below 25k... you're getting into suburban "edge cities" like Tysons Corners and King of Prussia.

 

The only "real" core city of any significance that comes close to approaching a 100% daytime population increase is Greenville, SC... which is a very small core city within a metro of close to a million.  It's daytime population increase is 98%. 

 

 

But still, lets do some math here. Pittsburgh is a metro of 2.5 million people and the daytime increase in the central city is only 135,000 people. It would be logical to assume that most people in the metro are not commuting to the central city, and suburb-suburb commuting is probably quite common, if not more common. Cincinnati adds 100,000 people in a metro of 2 million so same story...

 

Jobs many times have followed people to the suburbs, and I think the majority of suburbanites work in the suburbs nowadays...

 

Of course most Metro Pittsburghers don't work in the City of Pittsburgh... I've never said otherwise... but COMPARATIVELY speaking within the US... Pittsburgh and Cincinnati... along with Boston, DC, etc. have rather centralized regional economies where the core city... due to both a COMPARATIVELY strong job concentration and "artificially" small city limits... attracts a large amount of people that significantly boosts the daytime population number as a percentage of city residential population...

 

Youngstown does not have a high daytime population increase because it is one part of a bi-nodal metro (Warren)... and has had obvious economic troubles in recent decades. 

IKEA is not going to change the world...but guess what it is a MAJOR draw and puts your city on the map for those that travel long distances to shop at the place (Bass Pro Shops is a similar example).  People from Louisville, Lexington, Dayton, Indy and Cbus will all travel to Cincy should they wish to shop at an IKEA or other place that is few and far between.

 

They are coming to the Cincy Metro and not any of the others...and that is saying a lot especially starring down the recent success of Indy.

 

Not to discount Ikea, which I think is a great addition to Cincinnati, but it's probably just a matter of time before those cities get their own Ikea.  Ikea and many of these other chains are in expansion mode and are working down the food chain.  As Cincy is the biggest among places you mentioned, it logically bubbles up to the top of the list for a lot of these places.

 

Remember when they used to chart the coolness of a city by how many Starbucks it had?  Now you can buy Starbucks at a 24-hour drive through interstate exit store in the middle of nowhere next to the truck stop.

 

As these chains move out of the big cities and into smaller towns, their cachet will diminish as their exclusivity does.

 

I should note I've got some Ikea cabinetry that's being used in an unusual configuration to make a long desk and storage unit.  I also have some Ikea plates and such.  I believe the store offers excellent value for the money with stylish designs to book.

 

:laugh:Wasn't sure if this was the best place to put the article. Please feel free to relocate.

 

The Sun:

 

City is one of the fastest growing U.S. suburbs

Thursday, September 06, 2007

By Bryan Story

The Sun

 

AVON The city's rapid growth since 2000 puts it in the top 100 fastest growing suburbs in the United States.

 

In a recent article in Forbes Magazine, Avon placed 67th on their list of fastest growing suburbs in the nation.

 

The rankings were based on the percent of growth that the cities experienced according to 2000 and 2006 U.S. Census information.

 

According to the list, the population grew from 11,608 to 16,455 between 2000 and 2006, marking a 41.8 percent increase in population.

 

The only other Ohio city on the list was Springboro, a Dayton suburb, which came in at 98th....

more at:

http://www.cleveland.com/thesun/news/index.ssf?/base/news-0/1189017596172260.xml&coll=4

 

 

 

^ Oh for the love of God. Doesn't anyone besides us see how insane it is a regional that is at the bottom of nearly every list has a city at the top of a sprawl list???

"City is one of the fastest growing suburbs."  :roll:

 

 

As a seperate thread from arenn's Midwest Metro numbers, this is the official count for Ohio's CSA's, MSA's, and Regional areas (re: should be a CSA) for 2007:

 

CSA

 

1. Cleveland-Akron-Elyria CSA - 2,896,968

 

2. Cincinnati-Middletown-Wilmington CSA - 2,176,749

in Ohio – 1,685,164

in Kentucky – 412,820

in Indiana – 78,765

 

3. Columbus-Marion-Chillicothe CSA - 1,982,252

 

4. Dayton-Springfield-Greenville CSA – 1,067,741

 

5. Toledo-Fremont CSA – 711,952

 

6. Youngstown-Warren-East Liverpool CSA – 679,402

in Ohio – 562,593

in Pennsylvania – 116,809

 

7. Canton-Massillon MSA – 407,180

 

8. Huntington-Ashland-Ironton MSA – 284,026

in West Virginia – 135,666

in Kentucky – 85,751

in Ohio - 62,609

 

9. Lima-Van Wert-Wapakoneta CSA – 180,551

 

10. Mansfield-Bucyrus CSA – 169,906

 

11. Parkersburg-Marietta-Vienna MSA – 160,656

in West Virginia – 99,080

in Ohio - 61,576

 

12. Wheeling-St. Clairsville MSA – 145,454

in West Virginia – 77,546

in Ohio - 67,908

 

13. Findlay-Tiffin CSA – 130,909

 

14. Weirton-Steubenville MSA – 122,580

in Ohio - 68,730

in West Virginia – 53,850

 

15. Sandusky MSA - 77,323

 

__________________________________________________________

 

 

MSA

 

1. Cincinnati-Middletown MSA – 2,133,678

in Ohio – 1,642,093

in Kentucky – 412,820

in Indiana – 78,765

 

2. Cleveland-Elyria-Mentor MSA - 2,096,471

 

3. Columbus MSA - 1,754,337

 

4. Dayton MSA – 835,537

 

5. Akron MSA - 699,356

 

6. Toledo MSA – 650,955

 

7. Youngstown-Warren-Boardman MSA – 570,704

in Ohio – 453,895

in Pennsylvania – 116,809

 

8. Canton-Massillon MSA – 407,180

 

9. Huntington-Ashland-Ironton MSA – 284,026

in West Virginia – 135,666

in Kentucky – 85,751

in Ohio - 62,609

 

10. Parkersburg-Marietta-Vienna MSA – 160,656

in West Virginia – 99,080

in Ohio - 61,576

 

11. Wheeling-St. Clairsville MSA – 145,454

in West Virginia – 77,546

in Ohio - 67,908

 

12. Mansfield MSA - 125,679

 

13. Weirton-Steubenville MSA – 122,580

in Ohio - 68,730

in West Virginia – 53,850

 

14. Lima MSA - 105,233

 

15. Sandusky MSA - 77,323

 

__________________________________________________________

 

 

Regional

 

1. Cleveland-Akron-Canton – 3,304,148

 

2. Cincinnati-Dayton-Springfield – 3,244,490

And you can have your own fun here:

 

http://www.census.gov/popest/counties/CO-EST2007-01.html

as derived from the Census County Estimates, correct?  There's always the possibility of county addition/deletion from MSAs/CSAs when they release their metro estimates later in the year.

Yes, and this is based on the 2006 counties used.

Does anybody remember how accurate the estimates during 90's were compared to the findings of the 2000 census?

Toledo-Fremont? I know there's a reason behind the naming, just seems a funny combo.

 

Sktryker-Bryan Anyone?

Does anybody remember how accurate the estimates during 90's were compared to the findings of the 2000 census?

 

I can't say for Ohio, but I do know that Marion County, IN (Indianapolis core county) was markedly higher in the census than the estimates indicated.  I think it was close to 50K or something.

?

 

Toledo-Fremont? I know there's a reason behind the naming, just seems a funny combo.

 

Sktryker-Bryan Anyone?

 

:laugh:  :laugh:  yeah, i hear tell they are going to seek a review of the bryan-stryker-defiance-tontogany metroplex estimates. they want all those defiance college students & migrant farm workers included dammit!

Does anyone know why Ashtabula County was dropped from the Cleveland MSA recently--which further added to the declining numbers.  That was about a loss of 100,000 people to the MSA, right? 

 

Are we planning on adding it again in the near future to get new region "growth" for the 2010 census or something??

And you can have your own fun here:

 

http://www.census.gov/popest/counties/CO-EST2007-01.html

 

I'm supposed to be studying for a mesoscale meteorology test; but I was bored and made 2 non-scientific, general maps based off this info  :-D

 

Green = Population gain

Red = Population loss

 

Population Change 2006 to 2007

 

Population Change 2000 to 2007 (notice the "rings" around Cuyahoga/Summit, Hamilton, and Lucas)

Summit has gained from 2000-2007

CSA: counties and MSA: metros?

Does anyone know why Ashtabula County was dropped from the Cleveland MSA recently--which further added to the declining numbers.  That was about a loss of 100,000 people to the MSA, right? 

 

Are we planning on adding it again in the near future to get new region "growth" for the 2010 census or something??

 

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe whether or not a county is in the MSA is dependent upon what percentage of the people commute to the central county for work.  Less must be commuting to Cuyahoga with Mentor stealing industry from Cuyahoga County.

Including Marion and Chillicothe with Columbus makes no sense to me.  First of all, I've never met anyone who did that commute... nor do I know why they would.  Second of all, there is vast expanses of undeveloped land between these cities.

Summit has gained from 2000-2007

 

I was using the July 2000 estimate; but you are correct if you look at the April 2000 estimate.

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe whether or not a county is in the MSA is dependent upon what percentage of the people commute to the central county for work.  Less must be commuting to Cuyahoga with Mentor stealing industry from Cuyahoga County.

 

I know that micropolitan areas can somehow request to be removed from an MSA (and I think Ashtabula did.)  I would assume there has to be some commuting threshold for it to be allowed, but I'm not sure what it is. 

Including Marion and Chillicothe with Columbus makes no sense to me.  First of all, I've never met anyone who did that commute... nor do I know why they would.  Second of all, there is vast expanses of undeveloped land between these cities.

 

While I agree that Marion and Chillicothe don't "feel" like Columbus Metro at all, it is without question their reliance on Columbus contributes to the overall CSA (not MSA, which is Columbus and burbs).  Much like Ashtabula to Cleveland or Wilmington to Cincinnati.

well then you might as well put zanesville in there with cbus as well.

Zanesville has its own thing going on including its own media market!

yea well my old roommates dad used to commute everyday from Zanesville, so maybe there are some linkages...

Oh, I'm sure there's linkages (I know people from DAYTON and Springfield that commute to Columbus daily) but clearly not enough as Marion or Chillicothe.

well i certainly dont think zanesville should be included, but I think Chillicothe and Marion are a bit ridiculous.  Same goes for Wilmington and Ashtabula.  Why the need for these huge definitions?  Next thing you know, Columbus is going to cover all of Southeast Ohio where they are the main media market. 

It's all about commuting patterns.  If you want to see ridiculousness, check out St. Louis or Kansas City's MSA's.  Those things are the size of freakin' Connecticut.

http://www.census.gov/population/www/estimates/00-32997.pdf

Just my opinion, but I think Chillicothe and Marion are somewhat dependant on Columbus. I have relatives who live in Marion, and they use Columbus for EVERYTHING (shopping, medical, media, etc.). Especially with the way Delaware County is growing, the drive from Columbus to Marion seems pretty developed most of the way. I also know that the CW channel for Columbus is located in Chillicothe, so the media is very tied in.

ColDayMan is correct in saying that Zanesville has "its own thing going on." Yes people still go to Columbus for things, but it is mostly just because they want to get out for the day. Zanesville IS a growing shopping and entertainment destination, a medical headquarters for east central-southeast Ohio, and like ColDayMan said, has its own media market (including an NBC affiliate). Zanesville is very self sufficient without Columbus. The Market Area for Zanesville is between 180,000 and 250,000 people. (including Muskingum, Coshocton, Guernsey, Noble, Morgan, Pery, and parts of Licking Counties) 

I didn't realize Zanesville is the 9th micropolitan economy in the US!  Impressive!

"a medical headquarters for east central-southeast Ohio"

 

Talk about splitting follicles.

I didn't realize Zanesville is the 9th micropolitan economy in the US!  Impressive!

 

This actually just changed. We are now number 19, though still impressive! This information is from Site Selection Magazine. Other cities in Ohio made this list too. Wooster was just named #3, Findlay #6, Freemont and Wapakoneta #12, Defiance #38, and Sidney #62. This is what we were formerly listed as #9.

 

The top Metros list includes Cincinnati-Middletown #2 for metros over 1 mil. Akron and Dayton also made the list as #2 and #4 for metros 200,000 to 1 mil.

 

"a medical headquarters for east central-southeast Ohio"

 

Talk about splitting follicles.

 

Hey I know it's not the Cleveland Clinic or anything, but it's something right? :-D

Oldie but a goodie. Note that Ohio has five counties in the top 146 (I'll bet if they counted 150, that either Lucas or Mahoning would have been included, too). And Ohio has more of the top 146 counties than 42 states.

 

 

Half Of The United States Lives In These Counties

WALTER HICKEY AND JOE WEISENTHAL

SEP. 4, 2013, 5:48 PM

 

Using Census data, we've figured out that half of the United States population is clustered in just the 146 biggest counties out of over 3000.

 

Here's the map, with said counties shaded in. Below the map is the list of all the counties, so you can see if you live in one of them.

 

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/half-of-the-united-states-lives-in-these-counties-2013-9#ixzz37q7MmbTo

Pretty cool.  Looks like there are 14 states without a single top-146 county, and 9 more with only one.  (Or maybe ten or eight--hard to tell from the size of that map.)