However, even in schools where the inputs are largely the same, or at least as much of a controlled experiment as we can reasonably expect in a real world case study (e.g., D.C.'s popular voucher program, which was reinstituted after the Obama administration tried to cancel it), the schools in a competitive environment do perform better.  As I said above, they may not suddenly turn into Solon or Shaker Heights (or University School or Hathaway Brown), but that cannot be the appropriate standard.  The standard has to be improvement upon the status quo.

 

I don't know if I would go so far as to call the unrealistic notion that privatization would achieve universal proficiency dangerous, but I do agree that the perfect can become the enemy of the good.  However, I think that public schools (and the governments that control them) are more prone to fall prey to that than private schools would, because they are more insulated from economic realities that can force people to make hard (but productive) decisions.

 

"Largely the same" does not equal "the same."  I haven't studied the voucher data as much as the charter school data, but in both cases we're not talking about the same type of student when you're comparing those coming from families that are actively seeking to improve their education to those that are not.  I do know that the results of studies for both programs are mixed and of course there is a lot of politics involved. 

 

Playing "musical schools" may result in some gains (often marginal, at best) for some individual students, but again we're not talking about something that is repeatable system-wide because the students from which you want to isolate the motivated students still have to educated and accounted for in some system.  Whether they're on the rolls of the public school system or a charter or parochial school (if you can convince either to accept them), they're still going to cost a ton of money to educate and still generally do poorly on standardized tests.

 

My "dangerous" comment has more to do with all of these unproven, for-profit charter management companies that have come on the scene as of late.  Many policy-makers seem convinced that charters are a panacea and as a result the vetting process has become far too lackadaisical because of it.  For some (not all, but enough that it's worth mentioning), the privatization of education is a money-grab and not about improving outcomes.   

 

I realize I probably sound like a broken record here, but I really do think it's important to ask ourselves why some schools appear to be "successful" and some do "not."  More than just a discussion about the effects of inputs (which clearly cannot be downplayed), is there anything of substance happening in a school like Solon that is not happening in a school like Collinwood?  If we can, we should get the "struggling" public schools to more closely emulate the "successful" public schools.  And if the major differences lie somewhere else, then perhaps we should address those differences instead of putting our eggs in the basket of these educational changes that gives us at best marginal (and often debatable) improvements.

(e.g., D.C.'s popular voucher program, which was reinstituted after the Obama administration tried to cancel it)

 

Minor correction: I'm pretty sure the administration did NOT try to cancel the voucher program, though it did initially resist expanding it.

 

Just heard that we--as a society---are tearing down John Marshall HS---a beautiful piece of architecture. According to this article, it's because it needs work and it would cost $1M MORE to fix it than to demolish and replace it with some crap.

 

Likely, with cost overruns, it will end up costing a lot more---and it would have been cheaper to keep it. Its insane that we'd destroy a bldg for a difference of $1M at an estimate. Why not ask the Cleveland Foundation? They sit on over $1 Billion and would likely be happy to help. The landmarks commission folks should all be let go.

 

A Cleveland man's hunger strike won't save John Marshall High School but it's worth noticing: Mark Naymik

http://www.cleveland.com/naymik/index.ssf/2012/12/a_cleveland_mans_hunger_strike.html#incart_river_default

Satinder is not all there, though his heart's in the right place. He sends me and other mediafolk emails several times a day, arguing that Cleveland city and school officials should all go to jail. But he is targeting his anger in the wrong direction. The State of Ohio's funding criteria for school building projects favors new construction over renovating old. So if the Cleveland school system wants to forego tens of millions in state funding, then it could move forward with renovation -- as it did with James Ford Rhodes HS which didn't have the overcrowding problems that Marshall has.

 

I did my article on Satinder many months ago. The fact that the Plain Dealer is this late in reporting on his efforts is another reason why the PD won't be a daily much longer.

 

Here's an article I wrote earlier this year......

 

Cleveland Landmarks Commission clears way for John Marshall High school demolition

Published: Thursday, January 19, 2012, 10:03 AM    Updated: Thursday, January 19, 2012, 12:31 PM

  By Ken Prendergast, Sun News

 

CLEVELAND John Marshall High School has a date with the wrecking ball. But preservationists haven’t given up the fight and are considering their legal recourse.

 

The city’s Landmarks Commission voted 5-4 in a contentious hearing Jan. 12 to remove landmark status for the 80-year-old facility, thus clearing the way for the Cleveland school district to demolish the building, located at 3952 W. 140th St.

 

In its place will be a new, $21-million school. District officials said a new building will be cheaper than partial renovation ($27 million) or full renovation ($32 million). State funding will pay a significant portion of the cost, but comes with requirements that favor new schools instead renovating old ones.

 

READ MORE AT:

http://www.cleveland.com/sunpostherald/index.ssf/2012/01/cleveland_landmarks_commission.html

Maybe the building looks better in person than it does in that picture.  That picture doesn't cry out to me that the building is worth saving, and if the exterior is the most attractive part and the inside would need even more significant upgrades to be an actual modern educational facility, I have to say I'd have been voting with the majority on the landmarks commission.

What picture are you referring to?  The article posted only had a rendering of the proposed structure.

The link in the previous post to that one (http://www.cleveland.com/naymik/index.ssf/2012/12/a_cleveland_mans_hunger_strike.html#incart_river_default).

More students attended Cleveland Schools on the first day than expected

Patrick O'Donnell, The Plain Dealer By Patrick O'Donnell, The Plain Dealer

on August 21, 2013 at 1:32 PM, updated August 21, 2013 at 3:42 PM

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- About  300 fewer students came to school on the first day of school this year than last year.

 

For Eric Gordon, chief executive officer of the Cleveland Municipal School District, that's good news.

 

Losing just 300 students is a huge improvement from the drop of 2,200 he expected.

 

The last few years, the district has been losing about 2,000 students a year in opening day attendance, continuing a trend that cut the student population in half since the 1990s.

 

READ MORE AT:

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2013/08/post_187.html

The Plain Dealer has also been running a number of stories about the first week of the CMSD school year, with a focus on changes being made with the enactment of the new Cleveland Plan and the successful levy passage. I've got to say that after reviewing the Plan a little more deeply, and reading these stories, I'm thoroughly impressed with the direction the district is headed.

 

First day of school gives Cleveland school district its first chance to show changes at its Investment Schools

By Patrick O'Donnell, The Plain Dealer

August 19, 2013

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio --  Temisha Patrick was poised at the door of Anton Grdina Elementary School this morning at 7:30 a.m., ready to guide students to class.

 

"What grade?" Patrick asked a parent holding the hand of a young girl with a crisp new backpack over her shoulders.

 

"Second grade."

 

Patrick, an instructional coach at the school, gestured toward the front door.

 

"First and second grades have already gone in," Patrick said. "We'll go to the office and take care of you."

 

The first day of school at Anton Grdina started this morning with smiling children, few disruptions and consultants hired by the district on hand to make the start of school run smoothly.

 

The start, particularly at a school like Grdina, is crucial said Davin Auble, of the School Turnaround Group of Mass Insight Education, the firm the district has hired to help coordinate changes at 13 struggling schools, including Grdina ...

 

... More available at http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2013/08/post_182.html

The Plain Dealer has also been running a number of stories about the first week of the CMSD school year, with a focus on changes being made with the enactment of the new Cleveland Plan and the successful levy passage. I've got to say that after reviewing the Plan a little more deeply, and reading these stories, I'm thoroughly impressed with the direction the district is headed.

 

First day of school gives Cleveland school district its first chance to show changes at its Investment Schools

By Patrick O'Donnell, The Plain Dealer

August 19, 2013

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio --  Temisha Patrick was poised at the door of Anton Grdina Elementary School this morning at 7:30 a.m., ready to guide students to class.

 

"What grade?" Patrick asked a parent holding the hand of a young girl with a crisp new backpack over her shoulders.

 

"Second grade."

 

Patrick, an instructional coach at the school, gestured toward the front door.

 

"First and second grades have already gone in," Patrick said. "We'll go to the office and take care of you."

 

The first day of school at Anton Grdina started this morning with smiling children, few disruptions and consultants hired by the district on hand to make the start of school run smoothly.

 

The start, particularly at a school like Grdina, is crucial said Davin Auble, of the School Turnaround Group of Mass Insight Education, the firm the district has hired to help coordinate changes at 13 struggling schools, including Grdina ...

 

... More available at http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2013/08/post_182.html

 

Maybe it's just me, but I find the whole idea of lining up and going in as a group a tad creepy.

^We did this every day for my entire elementary school career back in the 60s.  When the first bell rang you marched in by grade.  Never really thought anything of it and just thought it was the way it was.  Also had to line up whenever travelling any where in the school (going to lunch, regular rest room breaks, gym class, art class ect. and to leave in the afternoon).

^We did this every day for my entire elementary school career back in the 60s.  When the first bell rang you marched in by grade.  Never really thought anything of it and just thought it was the way it was.  Also had to line up whenever travelling any where in the school (going to lunch, regular rest room breaks, gym class, art class ect. and to leave in the afternoon).

 

I think that was my experience as well. Waiting in your numbered bus line seems to stick in my memory also.

I remember marching in a line to go anywhere as well, such as lunch, gym, music, etc.

I only remember lining up by grade for events like school assemblies, not for entering the building in the morning, but I could be wrong. I too grew up in the 60's. Maybe I'm just too old to remember what happened. :wtf:

Looking back, the bathroom trips were ridiculous. You were expected to go when they took you as a class.  If you had to go 45 minutes later they'd all be like "why didn't you go earlier when we went with the class". Because I didn't have to then!

I too remember lining up, and having worked at an elementary school in the city about 10 years ago, I can tell you they still line up today.  Thinking back on that work expeience I think this is standard practice because it's just the most efficient way to keep up with little ones that otherwise would wander off and not consider the teacher is trying to keep track of 20+ kids at once...so not creepy just efficient.  No one wants to be the one who missed little Johnny wandering off during bathroom break! 

I too remember lining up, and having worked at an elementary school in the city about 10 years ago, I can tell you they still line up today.  Thinking back on that work expeience I think this is standard practice because it's just the most efficient way to keep up with little ones that otherwise would wander off and not consider the teacher is trying to keep track of 20+ kids at once...so not creepy just efficient.  No one wants to be the one who missed little Johnny wandering off during bathroom break! 

 

Maybe for second graders.  For eighth graders, it's wierd.

I too remember lining up, and having worked at an elementary school in the city about 10 years ago, I can tell you they still line up today.  Thinking back on that work expeience I think this is standard practice because it's just the most efficient way to keep up with little ones that otherwise would wander off and not consider the teacher is trying to keep track of 20+ kids at once...so not creepy just efficient.  No one wants to be the one who missed little Johnny wandering off during bathroom break! 

 

Maybe for second graders.  For eighth graders, it's wierd.

 

Good point.  And in the 90's we had middle schools.  I really don't get the movement to k-8 buildings.

^ Is that really a movement? I think the K-5, 6-8, 9-12 model works good.

Yes.  But it is more driven by a desire to consolidate school buildings, lowering maintenance and other costs, than it is as a direct advantage in education of the students

^ Is that really a movement? I think the K-5, 6-8, 9-12 model works good.

K-8 is what Catholic schools have always done.

 

Maple Heights has gone in the opposite direction.  There's one building for grades 1-2, then 3-4, and 5-6 (IIRC).  The middle school is 7-8 (it may include 6th) and the high school 9-12.

 

When I was going it was 1-6 at the elementary level with 4-6 schools, 7-9 at junior high with two schools.  All geographically defined.

A press release......

 

For Immediate Release:                                    For More Information Contact:

August 23, 2013                                                   Roseann Canfora: 216-647-6072

 

MC2STEM High School movesto CSU Campus

KeyBank Classrooms for STEM Education funded by $1.25M KeyBank Grant

 

CLEVELAND - More than 140 juniors and seniors attending MC2STEM High School in the Cleveland Metropolitan School District will move on August 26 to their new classrooms on the Cleveland State University (CSU) campus. The KeyBank Classrooms for STEM Education  (Science, Technology, Engineering & Mathematics), made possible by a $1.25M grant from the KeyBank Foundation, supports STEM education and promotes enrollment in higher education. 

 

In announcing the students’ move to their new classrooms at CSU this week, CMSD’s Chief Portfolio Officer, Christine Fowler-Mack, said District officials are excited for the students and grateful to KeyBank Foundation and CSU, who join other signature STEM partners, including General Electric, the Great Lakes Science Center, NASA, the STEM Hub and the Jewish Community Federation in supporting Cleveland’s MC2STEM programs.

 

“Our STEM students are fortunate to have such a diverse and committed group of signature partners to support them,” said Fowler-Mack.  “Having KeyBank and CSU join this distinguished pool of support speaks volumes about the value and growth of STEM education at CMSD.”

 

The MC2STEM High School curriculum provides strong academic, analytic, and problem solving skills, which typically result in a higher number of high school students going on to higher education.  Although CMSD has had a strong STEM program for six years, the fact that too few STEM students were going on to college played a part in formation of a STEM partnership between KeyBank, CMSD and CSU.

 

KeyBank Foundation's Chair Margot Copeland said when students themselves expressed a strong desire for a college campus immersion experience, KeyBank officials were compelled to act.

 

“Even some of the most motivated and prepared students feel reluctant to apply to college, simply because they cannot envision themselves on a college campus,” said Copeland.  “In forming the partnership, we felt strongly that housing MC2STEM High School on CSU's campus would give CMSD students a taste of college life and help them to better see themselves succeeding in a higher education environment.” 

 

The premise for the partnership between KeyBank, CMSD and CSU was to enable MC2STEM High School students to navigate a college campus and to gain support for application and acceptance to college. 

 

To turn this vision into reality, Copeland said, Cleveland State University officials agreed to provide nine classrooms on their campus, including a science lab in Rhodes Tower West and a Science/Chemistry Lab in CSU’s new science building.  The classroom space, officially named the "KeyBank Classrooms for STEM Education," will be concentrated in Rhodes Tower West, although students will also have access to a science/chemistry lab in CSU’s new science building, to science/technology classrooms and to a cafeteria.

 

MC2STEM High School students move to their new classroom space on Monday, August 26 and will have immediate access to extended resources on the CSU campus.  Families, media and the community-at-large will be invited to tour the new MC2STEM High School at an upcoming celebration of the KeyBank/CMSD/CSU partnership and the official opening of KeyBank Classrooms for STEM Education on November 18. 2013. 

 

 

For information, contact:

 

Roseann Canfora

District Communications Officer

Cleveland Metropolitan School District

216-647-6072

[email protected]    

 

Yes.  But it is more driven by a desire to consolidate school buildings, lowering maintenance and other costs, than it is as a direct advantage in education of the students

 

Not from what I've heard and read.  There has been a bit of a movement in urban districts over the past decade, not just in CMSD, to go (back) to K-8 buildings, and the arguments for this change have always been based (at least publicly) on research about the educational efficacy of this building setup.  From what I have read and seen firsthand, there are advantages and disadvantages to K-8 buildings.  The advantages include eliminating a school transition for students (which some research indicates can cause decreases in learning), allowing educators and families to build stronger relationships and communities, and allowing parents to have kids attending the same school for reasons of convenience.  The disadvantages include having classes where there is a wide gap in student ability, a limit on electives/specials that can be offered, and the possibility that misbehavior by older students can unduly influence younger students.

 

Side note: In the early stages of CH-UH's school reconfiguration discussions, administrators actually put on the table an option for K-8 schools/campuses.  If I recall, all options were for multi-building campuses (like Roxboro) built at 3-5 sites around the district.

Yes.  But it is more driven by a desire to consolidate school buildings, lowering maintenance and other costs, than it is as a direct advantage in education of the students

 

Not from what I've heard and read.  There has been a bit of a movement in urban districts over the past decade, not just in CMSD, to go (back) to K-8 buildings, and the arguments for this change have always been based (at least publicly) on research about the educational efficacy of this building setup.  From what I have read and seen firsthand, there are advantages and disadvantages to K-8 buildings.  The advantages include eliminating a school transition for students (which some research indicates can cause decreases in learning), allowing educators and families to build stronger relationships and communities, and allowing parents to have kids attending the same school for reasons of convenience.  The disadvantages include having classes where there is a wide gap in student ability, a limit on electives/specials that can be offered, and the possibility that misbehavior by older students can unduly influence younger students.

 

Side note: In the early stages of CH-UH's school reconfiguration discussions, administrators actually put on the table an option for K-8 schools/campuses.  If I recall, all options were for multi-building campuses (like Roxboro) built at 3-5 sites around the district.

 

Maple's K-6 is on a three school campus, that's also a trend.

 

A lot of districts aren't willing to take the bull by the horns and separate out the disruptors.

Maple's K-6 is on a three school campus, that's also a trend.

 

A lot of districts aren't willing to take the bull by the horns and separate out the disruptors.

 

I'm actually more concerned about the converse development: Zero-tolerance policies that treat students caught with a butter knife or a gun-shaped  croissant as "disruptors" that need to be gotten rid of.

Maple's K-6 is on a three school campus, that's also a trend.

 

A lot of districts aren't willing to take the bull by the horns and separate out the disruptors.

 

I'm actually more concerned about the converse development: Zero-tolerance policies that treat students caught with a butter knife or a gun-shaped  croissant as "disruptors" that need to be gotten rid of.

 

Oh I agree with that.  They are the flip side of the same coin.  "Zero tolerance" means "zero judgement" and makes it easier to go "by the book".

"@rustwire: The highest rated school in the whole Cleveland region is a Cleveland Public School, not a suburban school. http://t.co/mkFv6oTJB4"

"@rustwire: The highest rated school in the whole Cleveland region is a Cleveland Public School, not a suburban school. http://t.co/mkFv6oTJB4"

 

Unfortunately that's the exception, not the rule, so that's kind of a silly post.

 

I love John Hay btw. It has been doing great things.

Silly is when we use the majority rule to avoid thinking about what made those exceptions possible. I love it when stereotypes are blown up.

Silly is when we use the majority rule to avoid thinking about what made those exceptions possible. I love it when stereotypes are blown up.

 

John Hay has high ratings because you have to maintain a high GPA to stay in the school(3.00 or 3.25 If I remember correctly). I like this a lot, and if Cleveland wants to become more attractive I think they should use this model more. Have several elementary schools, middle schools, and high schools with this model.

 

I dont believe there are any suburban schools that follow this model. They will always have the struggling kids bring down their ratings, which are still high. That is something John Hay doesnt have to worry about.

 

You are more likely to see schools like Glenville in Cleveland than schools like John Hay

 

Glenville:

53.0% of students graduated in 4 years.......................................................F

 

Performance Index

54.5%...D

Indicators Met

0.0%...F

And this is why such a post about John Hay's high rating isn't silly. It fosters discussion (and probably some debate here and elsewhere). Thanks for the good info.

^ In case there was any confusion I don't think you posting it was silly. My comment was directed towards rustwire's spin on it "The highest rated school in the whole Cleveland region is a Cleveland Public School, not a suburban school"

If suburban schools get to toot their horn when magically their schools start getting better when the natives start getting overrun by new households with college degrees, John Hay and anyone choosing to write about them can do whatever the hell they want. It's disingenuous to draw the line when a John Hay situation presents itself.

 

 

Talking about the success of John Hay is great. We should talk about it even more. But comparing it to suburban schools is what I found kind of silly. Suburban schools by far beat out Cleveland city schools. IMO that tweet implies that is not the case, and comes off as snarky, urbanist propaganda. (And I love cities and dislike suburbs/low density)

 

John Hay School of Science and Medicine requires you maintain a 3.0 GPA or you are gone.

John Hay School of Architecture and Design requires you maintain a 3.0 GPA as well.

John Hay Early College High School, the highest performing school of the three, requires a 3.5 GPA.

 

Comparing these schools does not work.

Silly is when we use the majority rule to avoid thinking about what made those exceptions possible. I love it when stereotypes are blown up.

 

John Hay has high ratings because you have to maintain a high GPA to stay in the school(3.00 or 3.25 If I remember correctly). I like this a lot, and if Cleveland wants to become more attractive I think they should use this model more. Have several elementary schools, middle schools, and high schools with this model.

 

I dont believe there are any suburban schools that follow this model. They will always have the struggling kids bring down their ratings, which are still high. That is something John Hay doesnt have to worry about.

 

You are more likely to see schools like Glenville in Cleveland than schools like John Hay

 

Glenville:

53.0% of students graduated in 4 years.......................................................F

 

Performance Index

54.5%...D

Indicators Met

0.0%...F

 

In other words it's the academic equivalent of Glenville in football.  It draws the best from the whole district.  Plus, even moreso than private schools if withdrawl is automatic, it weeds out the disruptive.

Talking about the success of John Hay is great. We should talk about it even more. But comparing it to suburban schools is what I found kind of silly. Suburban schools by far beat out Cleveland city schools. IMO that tweet implies that is not the case, and comes off as snarky, urbanist propaganda. (And I love cities and dislike suburbs/low density)

 

But I also think it diffuses some of the suburban propaganda that Cleveland school students are all stupid or lazy or have uncaring parents or criminals or that Cleveland schools are so incompetent that they are incapable of educating anyone. I'll take every tool I can get to break that stereotype so I eventually we can bust it wide open. My experience is that all propaganda is imperfect, but still can be very useful to instigate new trends in thinking. After all, Rosa Parks wasn't some innocent black lady who just wanted a seat at the front of a bus. She was a civil rights activist who was part of a larger effort to attack segregationist laws and rules, including on where blacks could sit on a bus. She agreed to go in and instigate something by sitting at the front of the bus and refusing to give it to a white passenger. Few remember that she was a soldier in an organized campaign. She was not some innocent lady who decided at that moment that she had had enough. That doesn't mean I don't admire her or the larger civil rights movement. I admire both very much.

 

But what followed that pre-meditated action was propaganda by causing most of us to forget why she was there. A very imperfect situation was made nearly perfect. And the same can be done here with John Hay, the Cleveland schools, and American urban schools in general. There is something larger and greater to be gained from it.

Talking about the success of John Hay is great. We should talk about it even more. But comparing it to suburban schools is what I found kind of silly. Suburban schools by far beat out Cleveland city schools. IMO that tweet implies that is not the case, and comes off as snarky, urbanist propaganda. (And I love cities and dislike suburbs/low density)

 

But I also think it diffuses some of the suburban propaganda that Cleveland school students are all stupid or lazy or have uncaring parents or criminals or that Cleveland schools are so incompetent that they are incapable of educating anyone. I'll take every tool I can get to break that stereotype so I eventually we can bust it wide open. My experience is that all propaganda is imperfect, but still can be very useful to instigate new trends in thinking. After all, Rosa Parks wasn't some innocent black lady who just wanted a seat at the front of a bus. She was a civil rights activist who was part of a larger effort to attack segregationist laws and rules, including on where blacks could sit on a bus. She agreed to go in and instigate something by sitting at the front of the bus and refusing to give it to a white passenger. Few remember that she was a soldier in an organized campaign. She was not some innocent lady who decided at that moment that she had had enough. That doesn't mean I don't admire her or the larger civil rights movement. I admire both very much.

 

But what followed that pre-meditated action was propaganda by causing most of us to forget why she was there. A very imperfect situation was made nearly perfect. And the same can be done here with John Hay, the Cleveland schools, and American urban schools in general. There is something larger and greater to be gained from it.

 

Maybe so, but using a school intended to skim the cream off the very top isn't a very good example versus the suburbs.  It's almost like taking credit for St. Ignatius being in Cleveland.

 

What it is a good example of is the corrosive effect of egalitarianism in education, particularly in an urban setting. 

^ That's a fair statement. But I'd argue that decades of movement of people of means out of the city has disproportionately led to more advantaged, nurtured and stable home-life students in many suburban school districts and more disadvantaged and disenfranchised students from broken homes in the city. In many ways, suburban school districts do at least passively enjoy some of the advantages that magnet schools enjoy.

 

For me, this story showcases another important narrative ... That while the City of Cleveland is home to some of the absolutely worst public and charter schools in the statep, it is also home to some of the best public and charter schools in the state. For parents who otherwise would gravitate to living in the city, were it not for horrible schools, we've got to amplify the message that there are a great number of high-quality schools in the city before you even get to our private and parochial options.

^ That's a fair statement. But I'd argue that decades of movement of people of means out of the city has disproportionately led to more advantaged, nurtured and stable home-life students in many suburban school districts and more disadvantaged and disenfranchised students from broken homes in the city. In many ways, suburban school districts do at least passively enjoy some of the advantages that magnet schools enjoy.

 

For me, this story showcases another important narrative ... That while the City of Cleveland is home to some of the absolutely worst public and charter schools in the statep, it is also home to some of the best public and charter schools in the state. For parents who otherwise would gravitate to living in the city, were it not for horrible schools, we've got to amplify the message that there are a great number of high-quality schools in the city before you even get to our private and parochial options.

 

I think that's dead on.  This school will be compared against suburban counterparts when families are making location decisions, and it shows that there are viable choices in the city in terms of peer quality (which is arguably the most important factor to parents).

By way of illustration, some stats from CMSD, Bay, Solon and John Hay Early College. To E Rocc's point, John Hay Early College is benefiting from very low numbers of students with disability and limited English proficiency, as well as from highly qualified teachers. That being said, 100% of students are considered economically disadvantaged ... That's a huge disparity in comparison to suburban school districts. Sure, these students have high GPAs, which is probably indicative of supportive and engaged parents and of their own high levels of motivation and drive, but nonetheless, schools like this are elevating people out of incredibly impoverished backgrounds, and that deserves some  :clap: Even if the "economic disadvantage" designation is coming from the census tract level rather than the household level (and I have to assume it is ... 100% of CMSD students come from economically disadvantaged homes??), schools are still dealing with the challenges of troubled neighborhoods even if not troubled home lives.

 

CMSD

% Economically Disadvantaged: 100.0%

Limited English Proficiency: 7.8%

Students with Disabilities: 23.0%

% of core academic subjects not taught by highly qualified teachers: 5.1%

 

Bay Village City School District

% Economically Disadvantaged: 8.4%

Limited English Proficiency: 0.6%

Students with Disabilities: 12.1%

% of core academic subjects not taught by highly qualified teachers: 0.0%

 

Solon City School District

% Economically Disadvantaged: 11.2%

Limited English Proficiency: 5.2%

Students with Disabilities: 9.0%

% of core academic subjects not taught by highly qualified teachers: 0.0%

 

John Hay Early College High School

% Economically Disadvantaged: 100.0%

Limited English Proficiency: less than 5.0%

Students with Disabilities: less than 5.0%

% of core academic subjects not taught by highly qualified teachers: 0.0%

 

By way of illustration, some stats from CMSD, Bay, Solon and John Hay Early College. To E Rocc's point, John Hay Early College is benefiting from very low numbers of students with disability and limited English proficiency, as well as from highly qualified teachers. That being said, 100% of students are considered economically disadvantaged ... That's a huge disparity in comparison to suburban school districts. Sure, these students have high GPAs, which is probably indicative of supportive and engaged parents and of their own high levels of motivation and drive, but nonetheless, schools like this are elevating people out of incredibly impoverished backgrounds, and that deserves some  :clap: Even if the "economic disadvantage" designation is coming from the census tract level rather than the household level (and I have to assume it is ... 100% of CMSD students come from economically disadvantaged homes??), schools are still dealing with the challenges of troubled neighborhoods even if not troubled home lives.

 

CMSD

% Economically Disadvantaged: 100.0%

Limited English Proficiency: 7.8%

Students with Disabilities: 23.0%

% of core academic subjects not taught by highly qualified teachers: 5.1%

 

Bay Village City School District

% Economically Disadvantaged: 8.4%

Limited English Proficiency: 0.6%

Students with Disabilities: 12.1%

% of core academic subjects not taught by highly qualified teachers: 0.0%

 

Solon City School District

% Economically Disadvantaged: 11.2%

Limited English Proficiency: 5.2%

Students with Disabilities: 9.0%

% of core academic subjects not taught by highly qualified teachers: 0.0%

 

John Hay Early College High School

% Economically Disadvantaged: 100.0%

Limited English Proficiency: less than 5.0%

Students with Disabilities: less than 5.0%

% of core academic subjects not taught by highly qualified teachers: 0.0%

 

 

What is the criteria for "economically disadvantaged"?  Is it being eligible for reduced price lunches?

 

At a certain percentage, every kid is eligible because it's cheaper to do it that way than administer the program.  That's how Maple Heights is.

 

I'd buy a number in the 80% range or even the 90s, but 100% doesn't make sense.  You're probably getting kids from Asiatown and Shaker Square, etc. 

Talking about the success of John Hay is great. We should talk about it even more. But comparing it to suburban schools is what I found kind of silly. Suburban schools by far beat out Cleveland city schools.

 

But talking about schools beating other schools is also silly, as if the building or even the teachers are the primary factor.  They're not.  It's the parents.  So it's not the suburban "schools" that are great.  When you say that, you're actually saying, "The children that go to this building all live within certain geographic boundaries where parents tend to be more involved." 

 

When a good school goes bad, it's not that the teachers suddenly stopped teaching.  What happened?  Involved parents moved out (or their children grew up) and less involved parents moved in (or had children). 

 

Conversations should be around how do we create better parents, not better students.  Because if you're a poor kid whose single mom is a crack whore, guess what?  You have a really tough path to climb whether you go to a Cleveland public school or a Solon public school.  You think Solon is more prepared to take care of kids who go home to an empty house and are hungry during class because their mom didn't make them breakfast?  No.  It's just that situation is more prevalent in Cleveland, so it makes the school look bad when it really has little to do with the building, the teachers or even the students.  It's the parents (or lack thereof).

What is the criteria for "economically disadvantaged"?  Is it being eligible for reduced price lunches?

 

At a certain percentage, every kid is eligible because it's cheaper to do it that way than administer the program.  That's how Maple Heights is.

 

I'd buy a number in the 80% range or even the 90s, but 100% doesn't make sense.  You're probably getting kids from Asiatown and Shaker Square, etc. 

 

You are correct. "Economically disadvantaged students are students determined to be eligible for their schools’ free and reduced price meals under the National School Lunch Program."

 

Regardless, it's worthwhile to note that statewide, 43% of students are considered economically disadvantaged ... As jborger points out, it is clearly the case that CMSD (and the other big urban school districts) are disproportionately coping with disengaged parents who are themselves are disproportionately dealing with single-parent situations, criminal records, unemployment and underemployment, poverty, etc. John Hay to suburbs might be an unfair comparison, but given the significant disparities in opportunities for urban students and suburban students, comparing our big metropolitan school districts to suburban ones apples-to-apples is a little misleading as well.

Talking about the success of John Hay is great. We should talk about it even more. But comparing it to suburban schools is what I found kind of silly. Suburban schools by far beat out Cleveland city schools. IMO that tweet implies that is not the case, and comes off as snarky, urbanist propaganda. (And I love cities and dislike suburbs/low density)

 

But I also think it diffuses some of the suburban propaganda that Cleveland school students are all stupid or lazy or have uncaring parents or criminals or that Cleveland schools are so incompetent that they are incapable of educating anyone. I'll take every tool I can get to break that stereotype so I eventually we can bust it wide open. My experience is that all propaganda is imperfect, but still can be very useful to instigate new trends in thinking. After all, Rosa Parks wasn't some innocent black lady who just wanted a seat at the front of a bus. She was a civil rights activist who was part of a larger effort to attack segregationist laws and rules, including on where blacks could sit on a bus. She agreed to go in and instigate something by sitting at the front of the bus and refusing to give it to a white passenger. Few remember that she was a soldier in an organized campaign. She was not some innocent lady who decided at that moment that she had had enough. That doesn't mean I don't admire her or the larger civil rights movement. I admire both very much.

 

But what followed that pre-meditated action was propaganda by causing most of us to forget why she was there. A very imperfect situation was made nearly perfect. And the same can be done here with John Hay, the Cleveland schools, and American urban schools in general. There is something larger and greater to be gained from it.

 

Maybe so, but using a school intended to skim the cream off the very top isn't a very good example versus the suburbs.  It's almost like taking credit for St. Ignatius being in Cleveland.

 

What it is a good example of is the corrosive effect of egalitarianism in education, particularly in an urban setting. 

 

Perhaps, but when an urban school district has a school like ECHS, it doesn't just skim the best from the other public schools.  It also establishes a genuine alternative and competitor to places like Ignatius.  To put it charitably, not everyone who sends their son to Ignatius is a devout Catholic looking for a religious education for their son.  They just want the best education they can get for their children.

 

This is particularly attractive for schools like Hay because, IIRC, ECHS is competitive-admission, not lottery-admission, so ambitious parents can feel like they aren't leaving as much to pure chance.

Talking about the success of John Hay is great. We should talk about it even more. But comparing it to suburban schools is what I found kind of silly. Suburban schools by far beat out Cleveland city schools.

 

But talking about schools beating other schools is also silly, as if the building or even the teachers are the primary factor.  They're not.  It's the parents.  So it's not the suburban "schools" that are great.  When you say that, you're actually saying, "The children that go to this building all live within certain geographic boundaries where parents tend to be more involved." 

 

When a good school goes bad, it's not that the teachers suddenly stopped teaching.  What happened?  Involved parents moved out (or their children grew up) and less involved parents moved in (or had children). 

 

Conversations should be around how do we create better parents, not better students.  Because if you're a poor kid whose single mom is a crack whore, guess what?  You have a really tough path to climb whether you go to a Cleveland public school or a Solon public school.  You think Solon is more prepared to take care of kids who go home to an empty house and are hungry during class because their mom didn't make them breakfast?  No.  It's just that situation is more prevalent in Cleveland, so it makes the school look bad when it really has little to do with the building, the teachers or even the students.  It's the parents (or lack thereof).

 

I’m not saying otherwise and it’s for damnsure something CPSD deserves kudos for doing.  Especially since, from the outside at least, there are those who push to bunch all the kids together regardless of ability.  Or to not hold them to any standards at all on the basis of “self esteem”.  It’s good to hear that at least to a degree, they’ve ditched that nonsense.

 

(Oh, earlier I did forget that Shaker Square is actually in the Shaker Heights School District).

 

To succeed on a more widespread basis,  schools need to be a little bit ruthless with what I call the “ignorance missionaries”, which are sometimes actually more like “ignorance jihadis”.  I’m talking about the ones who actually disrupt the process and spread an attitude that learning and achievement are somehow culturally subversive. 

 

Separating out the best and most determined is a crucial first step, but it’s sort of a return to Dubois’s “Talented Tenth” unless it’s accompanied by a serious effort to reach and elevate the general student population as well.

 

Talking about the success of John Hay is great. We should talk about it even more. But comparing it to suburban schools is what I found kind of silly. Suburban schools by far beat out Cleveland city schools. IMO that tweet implies that is not the case, and comes off as snarky, urbanist propaganda. (And I love cities and dislike suburbs/low density)

 

But I also think it diffuses some of the suburban propaganda that Cleveland school students are all stupid or lazy or have uncaring parents or criminals or that Cleveland schools are so incompetent that they are incapable of educating anyone. I'll take every tool I can get to break that stereotype so I eventually we can bust it wide open. My experience is that all propaganda is imperfect, but still can be very useful to instigate new trends in thinking. After all, Rosa Parks wasn't some innocent black lady who just wanted a seat at the front of a bus. She was a civil rights activist who was part of a larger effort to attack segregationist laws and rules, including on where blacks could sit on a bus. She agreed to go in and instigate something by sitting at the front of the bus and refusing to give it to a white passenger. Few remember that she was a soldier in an organized campaign. She was not some innocent lady who decided at that moment that she had had enough. That doesn't mean I don't admire her or the larger civil rights movement. I admire both very much.

 

But what followed that pre-meditated action was propaganda by causing most of us to forget why she was there. A very imperfect situation was made nearly perfect. And the same can be done here with John Hay, the Cleveland schools, and American urban schools in general. There is something larger and greater to be gained from it.

 

Maybe so, but using a school intended to skim the cream off the very top isn't a very good example versus the suburbs.  It's almost like taking credit for St. Ignatius being in Cleveland.

 

What it is a good example of is the corrosive effect of egalitarianism in education, particularly in an urban setting. 

 

Perhaps, but when an urban school district has a school like ECHS, it doesn't just skim the best from the other public schools.  It also establishes a genuine alternative and competitor to places like Ignatius.  To put it charitably, not everyone who sends their son to Ignatius is a devout Catholic looking for a religious education for their son.  They just want the best education they can get for their children.

 

This is particularly attractive for schools like Hay because, IIRC, ECHS is competitive-admission, not lottery-admission, so ambitious parents can feel like they aren't leaving as much to pure chance.

 

True, and perhaps even more critically standards for retention have to be met.

 

Would the comparison of the Economically Disadvantaged children performance work better since they are the group that tends to have tougher experiences with school?

I don't really understand the direction this discussion has taken.  Comparing schools in the abstract without clear criteria is pretty fruitless.  It's like comparing cities.  Which is better, Lakewood or Waite Hill?  There are too many variables important to different people to collapse it into a single, comparable number.  The only clarity is on the extremes (e.g., almost anywhere is "better" than East Cleveland).

 

But if we do want to go down that road, you can either try to compare average instruction quality (which requires using somewhat rough and controversial "value added" metrics that factor in the expected performance of the student body given its socioeconomic characteristics), or we can compare average outcomes (raw test results), which is really a measure of student achievement, not school quality (strictly speaking).  As jborger more or less said, most people conflate the two, by focusing on student achievement and attributing it to school quality. Or, they're not really interested in instructional quality, but rather who their kid's peers would be. And by the student achievement measure, this particular CMSD school really is beating the suburban schools.  Its admission/retention policies don't invalidate the comparison at all, they merely explain the results of the comparison.

Talking about the success of John Hay is great. We should talk about it even more. But comparing it to suburban schools is what I found kind of silly. Suburban schools by far beat out Cleveland city schools. IMO that tweet implies that is not the case, and comes off as snarky, urbanist propaganda. (And I love cities and dislike suburbs/low density)

 

John Hay School of Science and Medicine requires you maintain a 3.0 GPA or you are gone.

John Hay School of Architecture and Design requires you maintain a 3.0 GPA as well.

John Hay Early College High School, the highest performing school of the three, requires a 3.5 GPA.

 

Comparing these schools does not work.

 

Suburban schools, such as Solon, Chagrin Falls, Rocky River, etc. "beat out" Cleveland schools because many of the suburban schools have their own barriers to entry: Students must have parents that can afford the expensive homes in these districts.  The implication you're making is that these suburban schools are performing miracles when that's not really the case.  The truth is that many "high performing" suburban schools are full of students from middle class and wealthy families and parents with degrees that know the value of education.  So while there may not be GPA requirements for these suburban schools, there's a type of self-selection occurring that makes the schools themselves look very good.

Talking about the success of John Hay is great. We should talk about it even more. But comparing it to suburban schools is what I found kind of silly. Suburban schools by far beat out Cleveland city schools. IMO that tweet implies that is not the case, and comes off as snarky, urbanist propaganda. (And I love cities and dislike suburbs/low density)

 

John Hay School of Science and Medicine requires you maintain a 3.0 GPA or you are gone.

John Hay School of Architecture and Design requires you maintain a 3.0 GPA as well.

John Hay Early College High School, the highest performing school of the three, requires a 3.5 GPA.

 

Comparing these schools does not work.

 

Suburban schools, such as Solon, Chagrin Falls, Rocky River, etc. "beat out" Cleveland schools because many of the suburban schools have their own barriers to entry: Students must have parents that can afford the expensive homes in these districts.  The implication you're making is that these suburban schools are performing miracles when that's not really the case.  The truth is that many "high performing" suburban schools are full of students from middle class and wealthy families and parents with degrees that know the value of education.  So while there may not be GPA requirements for these suburban schools, there's a type of self-selection occurring that makes the schools themselves look very good.

 

I was just about to post the same thing.  It amazes me how many people gloss over this fact.