They built that brand into something marketable when there were still many Italians there, and a very heavy concentration of Italian owned businesses, and the festivals were already in place.  Slavic Village still has some a few Slavic residents and businesses scattered about the neighborhood, and St. Stan's is still an anchor.  Is that enough to build off of, or has that ship sailed?  I'd hope the former, but I think probably the latter.

 

Would German Village in Columbus be a better comparison?  German majority of population is long gone. That neighborhood has just a few remaining ethno-centric businesses, but it's just enough to continue the air of tradition.

As for Slavic Village, I'd love to see it trade on it's Slavic heritage, but I think there are really very few Slavs left.

 

FWIW, it has definitely tried to in the past.  There was a sustained effort in the 1980s (maybe earlier) to rehab commercial buildings on Fleet into a pseudo country Polish style.  There are still a few left like this- they look kind of Alpine.  This was back when Fleet was still largely Slavic.  I don't have high hopes for any marketing strategy really resuscitating the neighborhood as a whole now that it's this far gone, but I could imagine a decently capitalized effort to relocate the remaining Polish businesses and some of the institutions not tied to historic buildings into a much more confined radius, perhaps at Broadway and 55th.  As sort of a Slavic lifestyle center retrofit.  With loft apartments upstairs. And professional security.

Well, if the neighborhood does go down, it won't be without a fight. You should meet some of the residents in that area. To say they are passionate about their neighborhood is an understatement. We will see if Trailside at Morgana Run is successful. That should help prove or disprove the marketability of the area.

But I'm pretty sure both started with new housing, not businesses. The businesses came later. Sadly, single-family housing is in excess supply in Greater Cleveland these days: http://www.cnt.org/repository/BUILT-Cleveland.FINAL.pdf. So the huge amount of townhouses built in Ohio City and Tremont may not be as marketable anywhere today, although some may sell. Indeed, renovating one old house at a time with modern, more spacious interiors for today's larger furniture and TVs could reverse the obsolescence of much of the neighborhood's housing stock.

 

Slavic Village's (or what's left) community is trying.  There's quite a few housing developments happening in and around the area although I'm not sure how far along or the interest in any of these homes.  I'd love to buy one but even at that low of a price I can't justify it (nor do I have the money).

 

http://slavicvillage.org/movein/findahome/currentprojects 

 

A suggestion might be to offer loft-style apartments with historical/ethnic charm in some of the vacant buildings in the East 55th-Broadway area, or along Fleet, or by St. Stan's, with basic services like a bodega (no lottery tickets or 40-ounce beer bottles!), a coffee shop, or a Slavic restaurant along the sidewalks to put "eyes on the street." They could be large apartments to be more marketable and to get as much square footage renovated. The Eastern European heritage of the neighborhood (and its industrial connections) is its biggest selling point. Don't be ashamed in flaunting it. That's what gives it "place." In fact, offer more festivals in conjunction with the churches, Third Federal and other neighborhood stakeholders to get people back into the neighborhood so they can envision a new future for the neighborhood. In fact, it was River Fest in the 1980s that brought people to the Flats, they saw plans for the future, and caused that area to spark (and burn itself out 20 years later!). The Feast does the same thing in Little Italy, of course, as does Asiatown's Lunar New Year Celebration (starts Feb. 10 and goes for 15 days http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2013/02/asian_community_celebrates_lun.html).

 

So many ideas and possibilities!

 

My friend and I had the idea of a Pan-Slavic style restaurant in hopes that it might be the anchor to draw other businesses into the Village.  We even tossed the idea around that if someone like a Michael Symon could get behind the project that'd be the easiest way to help kick off a "revival" or sorts for the area.  With a celebrity of his stature and all the name recognition that goes with it I think people (suburbanites) might be more apt to come eat and check out the area.

 

Slavic Village also used to have a festival that I remember my parents used to take me when I was younger.  The last time I had been there was in 1999 and remember seeing all sorts of Euro ethnicities being celebrated on Fleet.

 

I'm really excited for the Velodrome to have been put in Slavic Village.  I wonder if Ohio City Bike Co op (or other groups) would be willing to test the waters over there and perhaps make the area become a bikers mecca of sorts.

They built that brand into something marketable when there were still many Italians there, and a very heavy concentration of Italian owned businesses, and the festivals were already in place.  Slavic Village still has some a few Slavic residents and businesses scattered about the neighborhood, and St. Stan's is still an anchor.  Is that enough to build off of, or has that ship sailed?  I'd hope the former, but I think probably the latter.

 

The ship sailed when the "Goonies" street gang and its ilk started to become prominent.  I say that as a half-Pole who had ties to the area (more so to the 65th Francis area, but some to SV itself as well).  The people who could bail, did.  Quickly, and this led to an influx that led to the gangs.  The housing market implosion sealed it, though it also created activists among the trapped.

 

Little Italy was a special case because of its proximity to University Circle and the attitude of the neighborhood (led by the Mafia and its affiliates) towards disruption by outsiders.  This built a safe zone of sorts which very quietly led to the establishment of some boutiques, galleries, etc.  Once the Mafia's impact began to wane, these began to gain influence, to go with that of the UC institutions.  As the ethnic nature of the neighborhood had not yet washed out as has happened with others, it was preserved. 

So this was all caused by the lack of a Polish crime syndicate?

 

The ship sailed when the "Goonies" street gang and its ilk started to become prominent.  I say that as a half-Pole who had ties to the area (more so to the 65th Francis area, but some to SV itself as well).  The people who could bail, did.  Quickly, and this led to an influx that led to the gangs.  The housing market implosion sealed it, though it also created activists among the trapped.

 

Little Italy was a special case because of its proximity to University Circle and the attitude of the neighborhood (led by the Mafia and its affiliates) towards disruption by outsiders.  This built a safe zone of sorts which very quietly led to the establishment of some boutiques, galleries, etc.  Once the Mafia's impact began to wane, these began to gain influence, to go with that of the UC institutions.  As the ethnic nature of the neighborhood had not yet washed out as has happened with others, it was preserved.

 

Great post.  I'd rep you if I could.

 

Yeah, street gang action helped change over one or two neigjhborhoods in Chicago that Im familiar with (the gang in question back then was the Blackstone Rangers).

 

An good note on why Little Italy stayed Italian.  There was an artcile in Urban History (an academic journal) a few years ago that gave the history on how the Mafia and local neighborhood guys kept things in line during the 1960s and 1970s, thus giving Little Italy a rep as a no-go area for the thug element.

 

 

 

 

 

During the riots the Italians were armed with various weapons, and the rioters knew to stay clear. It's the only in tact, truly safe neighborhood in the city because that perception lasts, even as the area is far more diverse with non-Italians.

 

And perhaps there's something to be said about crime syndicates being the lesser of two evils compared to today's vaguely more chaotic bangers. Look at what happened in North Collinwood before and after Greene was there.

Guys, I was kidding.  Wow.  I feel strongly that organized crime is not part of the solution, here or anywhere else.

They built that brand into something marketable when there were still many Italians there, and a very heavy concentration of Italian owned businesses, and the festivals were already in place.  Slavic Village still has some a few Slavic residents and businesses scattered about the neighborhood, and St. Stan's is still an anchor.  Is that enough to build off of, or has that ship sailed?  I'd hope the former, but I think probably the latter.

 

Would German Village in Columbus be a better comparison?  German majority of population is long gone. That neighborhood has just a few remaining ethno-centric businesses, but it's just enough to continue the air of tradition.

 

Yes, that would be a better comparison.  I don't know what kind of condition German Village sunk to at it's nadir, but much of Slavic Village (it's a very large area) is pretty well destroyed.  Some of the more solid areas like Warsawza, could be made into a charming restored neighborhood like German Village.

 

The ship sailed when the "Goonies" street gang and its ilk started to become prominent.  I say that as a half-Pole who had ties to the area (more so to the 65th Francis area, but some to SV itself as well).  The people who could bail, did.  Quickly, and this led to an influx that led to the gangs.  The housing market implosion sealed it, though it also created activists among the trapped.

 

Little Italy was a special case because of its proximity to University Circle and the attitude of the neighborhood (led by the Mafia and its affiliates) towards disruption by outsiders.  This built a safe zone of sorts which very quietly led to the establishment of some boutiques, galleries, etc.  Once the Mafia's impact began to wane, these began to gain influence, to go with that of the UC institutions.  As the ethnic nature of the neighborhood had not yet washed out as has happened with others, it was preserved.

 

Great post.  I'd rep you if I could.

 

Yeah, street gang action helped change over one or two neigjhborhoods in Chicago that Im familiar with (the gang in question back then was the Blackstone Rangers).

 

An good note on why Little Italy stayed Italian.  There was an artcile in Urban History (an academic journal) a few years ago that gave the history on how the Mafia and local neighborhood guys kept things in line during the 1960s and 1970s, thus giving Little Italy a rep as a no-go area for the thug element.

 

All true, and they took it to the limit and beyond.  There's a story, perhaps apocryphal, about how on the day of one of the big 1960s civil rights marches, some of the radicals decided they were going to march from UC up Mayfield Road.  A bunch of neighborhood guys blocked the road with shotguns, and they demurred.

 

However, the same types and attitudes didn't preserve "Big Italy" on  Woodland.  Murray Hill/Little Italy was also protected by its location between University Circle and Cleveland Heights.  A reasonably safe area there had value to some people with clout.  Especially when the galleries and such moved in.

^

yeah, its sort of a pocket with good geogrpahic boundaries....

 

 

Some of the more solid areas like Warsawza, could be made into a charming restored neighborhood like German Village

 

Warzawa is that area off Fleet and arouind St Stans?

 

 

Yes, that's it.  The main street is East 65th, between Broadway and Fleet.

Yes, that's it.  The main street is East 65th, between Broadway and Fleet.

 

I've heard the area along E.65 from Union to Francis called "Krakowa".  Allegedly, the people from the Warszaw area settled in Warszawa and the Krakow area immigrants (including my granparents' families) went to the St. Hyacinth area. 

 

Hey there are two threads with almost the same name, can they be combined?

Funny about these parish names since they are the same in Chicago.

 

My dad and aunt went to a St Hyacinth in Chicago (Avondale) while my grandfather and I were baptized at St Stans B&M (Cragin). 

 

Last time I was in Cleveland (Fall of 2010) I was in that St Stans neighborhood and I think I got a coffee and donut or something in that coffee shop across from the church.

Funny about these parish names since they are the same in Chicago.

 

My dad and aunt went to a St Hyacinth in Chicago (Avondale) while my grandfather and I were baptized at St Stans B&M (Cragin). 

 

Last time I was in Cleveland (Fall of 2010) I was in that St Stans neighborhood and I think I got a coffee and donut or something in that coffee shop across from the church.

 

Both are Polish saints, so it's no surprise.  St. Stanislaus is indeed the patron saint of Poland.

However, the same types and attitudes didn't preserve "Big Italy" on  Woodland.  Murray Hill/Little Italy was also protected by its location between University Circle and Cleveland Heights.  A reasonably safe area there had value to some people with clout.  Especially when the galleries and such moved in.[/color]

 

The difference with Big Italy is that it was hurt by the closure of Luna Park in that neighborhood. When the amusement park closed in 1929, the mob's gambling businesses, speakeasies and restaurants were hurt. It was made worse when Luna Park was replaced with the Woodhill Homes in the 1930s. A lot of people think that Mayfield Heights was populated by Italians moving east from Little Italy on Murray Hill. Instead, Mayfield Heights and Lyndhurst started growing in the 1920s and 30s when people from Big Italy moved out there. When my father was a little boy in the 1930s, his mother told him to avoid Mayfield and Lyndhurst because that's where the Italians lived and it was "dangerous". I guess he didn't listen because he moved there in 1956 and stayed for 22 years.

The other thing that hurt Big Italy is the fact that it was completely erased for construction of the Central Interchange.

 

The ship sailed when the "Goonies" street gang and its ilk started to become prominent.  I say that as a half-Pole who had ties to the area (more so to the 65th Francis area, but some to SV itself as well).  The people who could bail, did.  Quickly, and this led to an influx that led to the gangs.  The housing market implosion sealed it, though it also created activists among the trapped.

 

Little Italy was a special case because of its proximity to University Circle and the attitude of the neighborhood (led by the Mafia and its affiliates) towards disruption by outsiders.  This built a safe zone of sorts which very quietly led to the establishment of some boutiques, galleries, etc.  Once the Mafia's impact began to wane, these began to gain influence, to go with that of the UC institutions.  As the ethnic nature of the neighborhood had not yet washed out as has happened with others, it was preserved.

 

Great post.  I'd rep you if I could.

 

Yeah, street gang action helped change over one or two neigjhborhoods in Chicago that Im familiar with (the gang in question back then was the Blackstone Rangers).

 

An good note on why Little Italy stayed Italian.  There was an artcile in Urban History (an academic journal) a few years ago that gave the history on how the Mafia and local neighborhood guys kept things in line during the 1960s and 1970s, thus giving Little Italy a rep as a no-go area for the thug element.

 

Thug element?  I honestly do not understand that since the mafia is a group of thugs.  Can you post a link to the article?  I have a suspicion, what is written and what that means, are two different things.

The other thing that hurt Big Italy is the fact that it was completely erased for construction of the Central Interchange.

 

There are two Big Italys that are being referred to here -- one is in the vicinity of today's Central Interchange which was a mix of Greek and Italian immigrants. The other was centered at East 110th and Woodland.

Thug element?  I honestly do not understand that since the mafia is a group of thugs.  Can you post a link to the article?  I have a suspicion, what is written and what that means, are two different things.

 

The word "thug" has been effectively redefined to refer specifically to the "gangsta" culture, in part by themselves through hip hop tracks. 

 

These guys are an order of magnitude worse to have as neighbors than the Sicilian mafia, or that matter Danny Greene in his Collinwood days.  Those two mortal enemies had more in common than either would care to admit. 

 

Mug a neighborhood "civilian" in either of their neighborhoods and they'd come after you.  If you were of their ethnicity, they'd come after you even harder. 

This idea that Mafia = Batman just doesn't fly.  Violent exclusion of blacks from certain neighborhoods was the cause of those riots, not the solution.  We don't need ethnic cleansing anywhere in Cleveland and we never did.  I think this neighborhood's future lies in escaping the "Slavic Village" concept.  Wouldn't we like for it to become a new haven for a new people choosing Cleveland as their home?  Or couldn't it simply improve for those now living there, regardless of their origin? 

 

We have to let go of the past.  It may have had better architecture, but it also forced people into tribal living patterns through bigotry.  While we can't forget what those people went through, we aren't supposed to perpetuate it in remembrance-- we're supposed to learn from that and evolve, eventually becoming a new community.  For this community to take off, its citizens must accept that they really are from right here, not from wherever their ancestors lived.  That's the only way they can accept that they're far more connected with East 55th than they are with their own ethnic group worldwide. 

 

Maybe it used to be Slavic Village, but now it's a reflection of all of us, and the united community we've chosen not to have. 

This idea that Mafia = Batman just doesn't fly.  Violent exclusion of blacks from certain neighborhoods was the cause of those riots, not the solution.  We don't need ethnic cleansing anywhere in Cleveland and we never did.  I think this neighborhood's future lies in escaping the "Slavic Village" concept.  Wouldn't we like for it to become a new haven for a new people choosing Cleveland as their home?  Or couldn't it simply improve for those now living there, regardless of their origin? 

 

We have to let go of the past.  It may have had better architecture, but it also forced people into tribal living patterns through bigotry.  While we can't forget what those people went through, we aren't supposed to perpetuate it in remembrance-- we're supposed to learn from that and evolve, eventually becoming a new community.  For this community to take off, its citizens must accept that they really are from right here, not from wherever their ancestors lived.  That's the only way they can accept that they're far more connected with East 55th than they are with their own ethnic group worldwide. 

 

Maybe it used to be Slavic Village, but now it's a reflection of all of us, and the united community we've chosen not to have. 

 

Damn, I kinda like getting to be on the other side of an argument.  Right now, one of the big debates nationally is about an ethnic group that is refusing to assimilate and asking for what amounts to special treatment.  I'm against that, but as I'm effectively second generation in this country, I'm against this sort of ultra-nativist thinking even more.

 

Do you really think the ethnic neighborhoods came about due to "bigotry"?  Not in the least.  It happened due to comfort in living patterns.  In NYC, it wasn't just Italian neighborhoods, but people from the same area, even the same villages, settling in to the same areas.  Here, as I said, the Poles formed at least two different areas based on what part of Poland they were from.  I'm not sure about the Italians and the Hungarians, as my ancestry is Polish, but I suspect the same thing happened.  People did not settle into areas because of "bigotry", and to claim so expresses a complete misunderstanding of the immigrant experience.  They settled into familiar areas around their friends and relatives, and their comfortable cultural patterns.  For example, St. Hyacinth School had bilingual education well into the 20th century.  Of course, it was truly bilingual and English fluency was a goal that was not seen as optional.

 

Since then, there's been some degree of assimilation.  For the most part, we all speak the same language.  We all have the same work ethic and the same values, again with exceptions.  But we still celebrate our old culture and our old holidays, while occasionally sampling those of others. 

 

And I would say that remembering where we came from both helps us understand where others are coming from, and what they need (and need to do) to get to where we are.

 

Do you really think the ethnic neighborhoods came about due to "bigotry"?  Not in the least.  It happened due to comfort in living patterns. 

 

Not exactly true. In San Francisco Chinese were restricted from owning property outside of Chinatown.

 

Do you really think the ethnic neighborhoods came about due to "bigotry"?  Not in the least.  It happened due to comfort in living patterns. 

 

Not exactly true. In San Francisco Chinese were restricted from owning property outside of Chinatown.

 

I'm not saying there weren't exceptions, and certainly the same restrictions were applied to blacks all over the place.  But to believe that immigrants were herded into established neighborhoods against their will completely misunderstands what was truly taking place.

 

Indeed, it's somewhat relevant today when you discuss urban development.  People living in close quarters out of neccesity prefer to be around familiar people and familiar scenes.

Back then it was a community. You moved to a place here where everybody still spoke the language, restaurants served the food, and families and friends from the old country lived. Generations later people became more americanized. The children no longer know the language. They ate more americanized foods. They moved away from the neighborhood. The community died, there was nothing left holding it together. Most people today dont know much about there roots or where they came from. They have ancestors from everywhere. Now they only identify by Race.

Do you really think the ethnic neighborhoods came about due to "bigotry"?  Not in the least.  It happened due to comfort in living patterns. 

 

One could say the difference between those two things is slight.  There's something to be said for "recreating the old country" when you have a bunch of brand new immigrants from some specific place.  But expecting "the old country" to persist here, in all its homogeneous glory, is another matter.  That is segregation defined.   

Damn, I kinda like getting to be on the other side of an argument.  Right now, one of the big debates nationally is about an ethnic group that is refusing to assimilate and asking for what amounts to special treatment.

 

I'm almost afraid to ask, but I honestly have no idea which ethnic group this is referring to.

Even if there is no bigotry, there is a natural tendency of new immigrants to live near each other to ease their assimilation into a strange new country. There is a lot to get accustomed to! The English language is tough enough to learn, let alone with all our slang. Zoning and housing codes are unknown to many in Central America, Eastern Europe, Russia, Middle East and Asia. Then there is our food that many foreigners consider bland, too filling, and even barbaric/against their religion in how we slaughter animals. And immigration laws tend to keep out people who don't have a way to sustain themselves while here, which means that, as a new immigrant, you better have some family here who can sustain you. That means you probably end up living near them or with them.

 

It's why about 100,000 Russians, Belorussians and Ukrainians came to Greater Cleveland when the Soviet Union folded because they knew family who were already here from waves of immigration in decades past. Ditto for Albanians, Serb and Croats who fled the Yugoslavian war in the 90s. And each of these ethnic groups moved to near each other in the same parts of the metro area so they could support each other. Some Ukrainians hang out in the same bar together and watch Ukrainian TV news and sports on satellite. Or Albanians playing board games for hours at coffee shops on Cleveland's west side. Or Halal meat shops in Indian or Middle Eastern neighborhoods because Hindus and Muslims can't eat meats unless the blood has been drained from them properly.

 

Why do we like traveling overseas? To experience different cultures, histories and viewpoints. Having some of these cultures (even if somewhat Americanized) close by and accessible in our own metro areas is a bonus! We often complain here on UrbanOhio about "homogeneous suburbs" and extol the virtues of diversity that a city brings. And now we're going to call ethnic neighborhoods a symbol of bigotry? I guess it all depends on why that neighborhood exists and how we treat it. Did we create it to isolate it or to celebrate it?

 

I think with Slavic Village, we seek to recreate it to celebrate the culture. At least that's what I want to do.

^Extremely minor to your overall point, but just to keep the record straight, Halal meat is purely a Muslim notion, not Hindu.  Also, not sure there are any Indian neighborhoods in Cleveland, other than some building-specific clusters (e.g., Reserve Square, R&R's complex).  I could be wrong though, if something recent has emerged.