Cincy looks for virtue amid the Bengals' vices

By Pat Forde

www.ESPN.com

 

CINCINNATI -- There is no easy explanation for this place.

Cincinnati is a cocktail of contradictions, a town too conflicted for easy labeling. Its outside doesn't readily match its inside, making this a real-life Wisteria Lane: What looks like quintessentially normal America seems to have a ragingly weird undercurrent sluicing through it. It is famously conservative and proudly prudish, yet it launched the porn career of Larry Flynt and once elected Jerry Springer as its mayor. (Springer later ran for governor, and part of his campaign was a TV ad wherein he admitted paying for a hooker -- with a check.) It counts among its most famous women residents both Harriet Beecher Stowe, who wrote "Uncle Tom's Cabin," and Marge Schott, who once referred to two African-American Cincinnati Reds as "my million-dollar n------."

 

For more information, click above link.

^ Damn, that's a lot to read. lol ...

yes... the article isn't "posted" properly... the quotes under the photos (which aren't included in this post) are interspersed within the text of the post and make for a confusing read...

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/columns/story?columnist=forde_pat&id=2848689&sportCat=ncb&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab3pos1

 

 

As an outsider who has visited Cincy several times... this article seems quite impressive... it certainly goes way beyond sports... it gets to the heart of this bizarre, unique, fantastic, frustrating city... it treats the city with unflinching frankness...

^Yeah...definitely one of the worst article posts I have ever seen.  This was difficult to read the way it was posted, but the article kept me reading.  Very frank, but some things were generalized quite a bit.  I was pissed, then at ease...then pissed again, and finished at ease with the article.

One of the things I hate most ... are generalizations. I can't stand it when people generalize, it's as if everyone is the same.

 

Good article though!

sorry guys, i clicked on 'print article' and just copied it. Usually that gives you a good copy.

East Coast HOLLAR!

Pretty good article. A rather intriguing look at what makes the Queen city tick. Kinda gives the city a mystique all its own.

 

I've always thought Cincy was "the most northernly southern city", and "the most southernly northern city".

Whatever it is ... this city kicks freakin ass.

Fantastic article.

Really cool article....but why did some of you think it was so hard to read? 

 

The article did kinda punk Cbus out though...now that Cleveland has regained the title of Ohio's "largest" city! 

I think our name itself is pretty badass.. "Cincinnati"....awesome name.

I think our name itself is pretty badass.. "Cincinnati"....awesome name.

 

I think so too ... It's kind of Roman-esque (well, it is Roman, lol!). It's got this romantic, but powerful meaning behind it too.

East Coast HOLLAR!

 

I think the article was dead on about Cincy. It's a very odd/unique place.

 

Cleveland is very East Coast. I think that's why alot of Clevelanders live on the East Coast, and alot of natives on the East Coast are familiar with Cleveland.

 

Not much adaptation needed for Clevelanders living here, except patience when it comes to traffic.

East Coast HOLLAR!

 

I think that's why alot of Clevelanders live on the East Coast,

Perhaps they're looking for the same social atmosphere but with better housing stock? *tisk tisk*

I agree.  Cincinnati is nearly impossible to explain to other people.  it's like an octopus... One leg stuck in the south, one leg stuck in the MidWest, one leg stuck in Bavaria, one leg reaching for the urban East coast, one leg.....

 

... you get the picture.

^One leg stuck in Bavaria.  Very nice!

 

I was impressed someone from outside the city wrote such a detailed article about our town.  Somewhat cliched but somewhat trenchant.  I liked how he called us a virtual nation-state.  It was nice to see that someone else noticed the Josh Hamilton/Chris Henry dichotomy (reference the Banks development thread), even if Daugherty dismisses it.

Even though I'm not from Cincinnati or Ohio for that matter and I'm not a fan of any college/ professional sports team here, that article really pissed me off when I first read it because that was not my Cincinnati experience.  I wouldn't live here if it the racist, southern, conservative, bible thumping city I felt it was painted to be in Pat Forde's article.  However, each time that I got pissed off about a certain point he was making, I had a hard time completely refuting it.  Sure he picked some easy targets with easy examples: race relations = riots; christian conservative right wing = Bill Cunningham quotes; however, I also can't say that those things do not exist here (as they do in many other places as well) as evidenced by the fact that Phil Burress & Bill Cunningham have huge followings and that African American - police relations are still very poor. 

 

I read the article again and was a little more objective the second time around.  This time I wasn't really angry about it, I just felt that he did a poor job of balancing out what he wrote with any positive aspects of the city or it inhabitants.  I guess the bottom line is that Cincinnati has created a lot of it's own negative stereotypes and does a fantastic job of finding ways to reinforce them in the national media. 

Let's not forget that mid '80s example of contradictions.  Cincinnati has a nice, forward thinking Contemporary Arts center.  It obvioulsy enjoys a fair degree of public support.  But then the "powers that be" shut down the  Mapplethorpe exhibit when the center tried to show it.

i think it is a great article...something very neutral from Ohio-Hating ESPN.  i dont think there is single thing to get angry about.

East Coast HOLLAR!

 

I think that's why alot of Clevelanders live on the East Coast,

Perhaps they're looking for the same social atmosphere but with better housing stock? *tisk tisk*

 

Plenty of EC folks are moving to Cleveland, especially from the NYC area. No worries. :)

I think I am in on board with you on this one.  There are the easy targets such as Cunningham, and the riots, but I disliked the quote from Cronin and people assuming you are talking about high school.  We are certainly no transient mecca, but as I have said  many times half the people I now meet in this area are not from here.  And my advice to Cincinnatians is if you do respond this way, please stop.  I personally have not experienced this.

 

Interestingly, an implied characteristic of being liberal is that you should not use stereotypes, but much of what is in the article does just that.  So the critique is somewhat guilty of what it is being critiqued.  This in many ways is not the Cincinnati I have experienced either, but a lot of it probably has to do with who you hang out with and what you do.  I also agree that we have supplied plenty of fodder for the media so hopefully we start to change that - I'll take Mayor Mallory's crazy opening day pitch and appearance on Kimmel any day.   

Even though I'm not from Cincinnati or Ohio for that matter and I'm not a fan of any college/ professional sports team here, that article really pissed me off when I first read it because that was not my Cincinnati experience.  I wouldn't live here if it the racist, southern, conservative, bible thumping city I felt it was painted to be in Pat Forde's article.  However, each time that I got pissed off about a certain point he was making, I had a hard time completely refuting it.  Sure he picked some easy targets with easy examples: race relations = riots; christian conservative right wing = Bill Cunningham quotes; however, I also can't say that those things do not exist here (as they do in many other places as well) as evidenced by the fact that Phil Burress & Bill Cunningham have huge followings and that African American - police relations are still very poor. 

 

I read the article again and was a little more objective the second time around.  This time I wasn't really angry about it, I just felt that he did a poor job of balancing out what he wrote with any positive aspects of the city or it inhabitants.  I guess the bottom line is that Cincinnati has created a lot of it's own negative stereotypes and does a fantastic job of finding ways to reinforce them in the national media. 

But then the "powers that be" shut down the  Mapplethorpe exhibit when the center tried to show it.

 

And that wasn't a good thing?  I believe it was one of the cities finest moments!

What an amazing article. I know some of the generalizations are not perfect (Example: West Siders today tend to be the sons and daughters of Blue Collar Workers), but I thought that he painted one very good picture of Cincinnati and how it ticks.

I thought the article was great!

 

I'm not sure if I understand the comment about being asked what school you went to... is he saying that no one goes to college, or that we just take pride in our high schools?

the latter

^Anyone who doesn't understand the high school remark is either a recent transplant, went to school in the suburbs,is not from here,or ownly hangs out with people who fall into these categories.Just as Cincinnati is known for its "cincinnati style chili", we are also famously loyal to our high schools. I work in construction and I would wager that the topic of "what school (IT IS ABSOLUTELY UNDERSTOOD THAT THE QUESTION IS WHAT HIGH SCHOOL) did you go to" comes up at the very least 4 or 5 times a week. IMO the writer is dead-on in this regard

 

He is not saying no one goes to college here, just that true Cincinnatians loyalties are first and foremost to their high schools.If this is not true for you then you are a "lesser pedigree" Cincinnatian.

I thought the article was great!

 

I'm not sure if I understand the comment about being asked what school you went to... is he saying that no one goes to college, or that we just take pride in our high schools?

 

Cincinnati has the second highest number of private high schools in the United States. Thats really where the pride comes in, plus Walnut Hills and SCPA.

I have noticed a lot of pride mainly from Elder, Moeller, and St. X, mainly because they have the best sports in the city. I think a lot of Cincinnatians tend to think that everyone else currently living in Cincy also went to high school here, and in conversation people are interested to know where you went to high school because that can tell you a lot about the person.

 

It does make Cincy sound small though...

If this is not true for you then you are a "lesser pedigree" Cincinnatian.

 

I don't think it has to do with social status as much as it has to do with sports.

 

BTW, have you guys ever seen any Elder commercials? They're on par as one of ESPN's. I saw one, one night and I was like I can't believe this is a high-school commercial?!

I think its both. Not everyone at those schools plays sports, and all-girl private catholic schools are really popular as well and no one gives a sh*t about those sports. When applying for a job locally, having "St. Xavier" on your resume is just as valuable as the college listed. These are people that are willing to dedicate roughly 10-15 percent of their annual income per child for a private education while still paying property taxes.

I'm sorry but if you have your high school listed on your resume and you are applying for a job when you are close to finishing college or after college the following are probably true:

 

1) You do not know how to write a proper resume

2) You haven't had enough experience or extra curricular activities in your field of interest to impress the hiring manager

3)  The hiring manager is at the very least inwardly laughing at you for putting a high school on the resume and at the very most will be throwing the resume away and not take you seriously

I've heard you generally should tkae your high school info off your resume after your sophomore year. I've also been told in an interview to have all of my experience on the resume after I didn't put HS info on my resume. 

I'm sorry but if you have your high school listed on your resume and you are applying for a job when you are close to finishing college or after college the following are probably true:

 

1) You do not know how to write a proper resume

2) You haven't had enough experience or extra curricular activities in your field of interest to impress the hiring manager

3)  The hiring manager is at the very least inwardly laughing at you for putting a high school on the resume and at the very most will be throwing the resume away and not take you seriously

 

That was based off of a real example. My English professor was telling us about how her husband got his job over everyone else because the person that hired him went to the same school, (St. X). If people went to what they think is a superior highschool, they'll put it on a resume.

I think I'm going to have to agree with David on this. I have one cousin at St. X, Two graduates from Moeller, and one at McNick... I think they all have a one up on me when it comes to getting a job one day (in this area) because of the amazing reputations that theses schools have (okay... not necessarily McNick... but its in that Cincinnati Private Catholic School category).

>I've heard you generally should tkae your high school info off your resume after your sophomore year. I've also been told in an interview to have all of my experience on the resume after I didn't put HS info on my resume.   

 

Okay...the whole point of a resume is for it to stand out in a stack of resumes so that you get called in for an interview.  If you went to the same high school as the guy interviewing you, that's a huge deal.  You will automatically have a lot in common and will be able to hit it off in the interview right away instead of making stupid small talk. Especially in the case of the Catholic schools people will know you're of a similar background in other ways and 99% likely to be a trustworthy person.  The interview's going to go great unless you're a total idiot.     

 

Getting interviews and getting hired are totally, totally fickle things.  They have nothing to do with being fair and everything to do with the hunches and peculiarities of the person doing the hiring and anything fleeting that goes on during the interview.  I got hired once because the guy read my name and thought I was Jewish and had always had good luck with Jewish employess even though he himself was Catholic.  Good thing I didn't put my high school on *that* resume or I might have blended in with all the Catholic applicants! 

 

So...if you went to high school in Cincinnati and are applying for a job in Cincinnati...put your damn high school on your resume!

 

 

I'm telling you, you are completely crazy if you think employers care about anything that happened to you in high school unless it specifically deals with the position you are applying too.  I'm telling you this from experience of hiring people for positions, being around others who hire people and looking for a job myself.  The only thing that happens in high school that is important is that you get great grades and participate in leadership roles so you look good to good colleges.  If you think anything else that you did in high school is important then I ask you, no beg you, to take a step out of your small little world and see what the rest of the world has to offer.

 

Exurbkid......please don't think for a second that what high school you go to is going to matter.  If you mention what high school you went to in an actual job interview you will not be treated with reverence you will be treated and looked at like you are too immature for the position.

 

Now, what college you went could make a difference........that is a different topic

jmecklenberg......aren't you assuming that the hiring person at whatever job you are applying for is from Cincinnati and also thinks on the small scale??  I highly doubt this is the case for most employers in the area.  The majority are not form here, are looking for the best person for the job so putting what dumb high school you went to is really irrelevant, or they just think on a bigger picture and don't care.

 

With the way the job market is today and the mobility of people today an employer can hire anybody from anywhere in the country.  You will be competing with people not from here who actually don't waste the space on their one page resume with useless stuff like high school and put things they did to make them a better candidate.  I guess this is a novel idea for some people in this city!!

Look at it this way. People naturally are attracted to people like themselves. People that went to great private schools are more likely to be in higher-up positions than say..the average person that graduated from Western Hills High School. Since people give special consideration to people like themselves that they have a lot in common with, the highschool you go to most certainly matters. If people didn't care about their high schools, schools like Elder wouldn't have such a strong alumni that donates millions. You should hear some of the 2 hour long conversations Elder alum have about how Elder was the best experience of their lives. Its nauseating.

Unfortunately you are thinking on the small scale........Nobody outside of people who went to some specific school cares about what you are talking about let alone employers in the real world.  It's nauseating for a reason.......it's sad that people think others care about high school anymore. 

 

It is very sad that people are so stuck in the past that they have to relive their high school days over again.  It's called moving on and seeing the big picture.

 

NOBODY CARES!!!!  Especially employers!!!

 

Now tell them you graduated from Harvard with a 4.0 and you'll get there attention.  Tell them you graduated from Elder or St.X with a 4.0 and they will laugh and ask what you did in college!!

 

And by the way, people aren't naturally attracted to people like themselves.  Ever heard of the saying "opposites attract"??  When employers are looking to fill a position they are usually looking for someone that will complement what is already in place not be the same.

 

All it is called is looking outside the small area that most people live and looking at the big picture.

I think it would work if you leave it off, then if they say "Tell me about yourself." you can mention what high school you went to, which may lead to things you all have in common.

If you are looking for a job out of college, do not put your high school on your resume.  I did NOT have my high school on mine, and I'm from Cincinnati, went to college in Cincinnati, and looked for a job in Cincinnati.  After looking at your resume, some companies will ask you to fill out their job application.  If I recall correctly, many of these applications DID ask for high school.

Remember the name of the article here folks. This is not most places, this is

 

"Cincinnati: A city of contradictions".

 

It matters here. People DO CARE.  Cincinnati is the quintessential "little big city". You can't go anywhere w/o running into someone you know,your parents know etc. These things carry great weight in this town. There probably is no satisfactory explanation,it just is the way it is because cincy is the way it is.This is definitely more of a westside, private school thing tho and is a little foreign to most folks from the eastside.

^ Yeah, I strongly disagree with that last paragraph. If you're from the westside, that's cool, I understand.

 

I say leave it off too, but like what XUMelanie has said, most co.'s have an application for employment too, and that's where they usually ask for the high-school.

 

It's just unprofessional to put it on your resume ... and why in the hell is this being discussed this thoroughly in this thread?!

Im not saying it looks GOOD to put your highschool on a resume. I think its a stupid thing to do. Im just saying its funny how it works for some people.

 

 

Anyway, go Cinci!

>The only thing that happens in high school that is important is that you get great grades and participate in leadership roles so you look good to good colleges.

 

Oh, so you mean like student council and then student senate in college and SAB (Student Alumni Board) and those bullshit service fraternities that "look good on a resume"?  Come on, "leadership" in college extracurriculars is a joke and if you lap that stuff up you're a joke too.  There's no real responsibility in those activities, no real consequences for screwing up.  It's not like, say, being a Marine or mate on a ship up on the Great Lakes.  And in my experience in college, those student senate people ran dirty campaigns and did nothing but kiss the administration's ass.   

 

I did all kinds of real stuff in college I can't even put on a resume like having a hand in getting two faculty members fired for unethical behavior (in completely unrelated incidents) when nobody else would do the legwork.  I wrote letters, called lawyers, etc.  I don't do things because it's something to toss on my resume, in those cases I did it because it was the right thing to do.

 

I also pulled social stunts like throwing *the* biggest party of the year at a university of 35,000 and on a dare went out 75 nights in a row.  In my and a lot of people's books that's evidence that I can make friends easily and have a good idea how people tick.  But I guess devising and carrying out things of your own design is no match on a resume to say having been treasurer of SAB. 

 

 

>If you think anything else that you did in high school is important then I ask you, no beg you, to take a step out of your small little world and see what the rest of the world has to offer.

 

Okay brother.  Maybe you had a lousy time of it in high school but I and pretty much everyone I went to high school with had a great time and has nothing but positive memories.  I have kept in almost daily email contact with about ten people from high school for over ten years.  We meet up with each other all the time when we travel to the various places we live.  Usually when people are bitter about their high school it's because they got stuffed in the garbage can one too many times.  Cough.     

 

 

 

I think it's cool that Cincy folks put their high school on their resume. It's another funky quirk of the area.

 

That being said, I wouldn't try to do that anywhere outside of Cincy, unless you lack a college education or are looking for an internship in your first few years of college. To put it another way...nobody hiring in Philly or Denver is gonna give a crap if you went to Moeller (unless you know they are from Cincy).

 

Also, the dude who wrote the article should have clarified the high school thing a bit more. If you aren't trolling UrbanOhio for the proper explanation, you could very easily surmise he's saying that people in Cincinnati don't go to college.

 

I've found that the high school thing very rarely comes up in the first conversation I have with someone, and only after it's been established that I am a native Cincinnatian, and then only after someone asks where I grew up. I see nothing strange in this behavior, and I imagine the same happens plenty of other places as well.

 

I had no idea people would put their high school on their resumé. That's silly to me, but hey, if it helps you get a gig, more power to you.

 

What's funny is that this thread has degenerated into a discussion about this topic above everything else brought up in the article. So I guess that shows you something, not sure what though.

 

I thought the the article was a thoughtful examination, undermined somewhat by details that were truer in the 70s or 80s than they are now. Much of this is perpetuated by the folks interviewed in the article. I trust Cronin to be a good judge of basketball talent, not the complexities of social interaction and the civic character of Cincinnati. To me, the evidence of our provincialism is that we assign these characteristics to ourselves as though they are unique, when really they're probably just like any number of other places. We just don't know any better.

 

By the way and for the sake of clarity, the article title is not Cincinnati: A City of Contradictions, as someone stated above, and as the thread title suggests.

^ Great post, Cramer.

The "What school did you go to?" (meaning high school) question occurred in Louisville, too.  People there are aware of it and it has become sort of an ironic in-joke among hipper Louisvillians, mocking the implied provincialism of such a question while winking also at it as a local quirk.