"They liked the sprawling shopping malls like Great Northern, and big box developments with restaurant out parcels like Avon Commons"

 

I question that - I think people have specific needs from specific stores, and sprawl-malls and big-boxes are the unfortunate model. Until Crocker Park, there simply wasn't any choice for mainstream retail - you were forced into a shamelessly auto-centric model. I seriously doubt that people look at swaths of asphalt and sigh "... ahh, this is the life."

 

*I* shop at Crocker Park (and Beachwood Place), but it's not because I enjoy a 20-minute trip to the suburbs, it's because I like Trader Joe's, I like Banana Republic, H&M, etc. - they just happen to be in sprawlville in big box developments or faux-urban settings. Had those places had locations within the city limits, you'd better believe I'd never set foot in Crocker Park.

 

"Plus (I have to tell this to people who will "never set foot" in the area), the spin off development is a reality. There is construction all over the place."

 

Unfortunately, it's almost all the garden-variety auto-centric schlock that's infested Westlake for years. As faux-urban as Crocker Park is, the crap that's getting built up and down Crocker Road isn't even bothering to follow suit. I'm sorry but condos like Wyndgate hardly qualify as medium-density - sure, they're more densely built than the cul-de-sacs but that's not saying much. Outside of Crocker Park, it's the same old unsustainable, way-too-large setbacked, un-pedestrian-friendly junk - http://www.cityofwestlake.org/business/RecDevProj.php

On a different note:

 

I drive pass the area regularly. More so because I have to to get to my sister's house then for any other reason.

Has anyone else noticed a majority of their oak tress are barely surviving. Many of them are completely dead.

  They may not be fooling anybody on this forum, but you can be damn sure the average soccer mom and clueless professional think it's a real city. 

 

 

"Look ma, that there is a real city!"

"It's just like I thought it would be in my dreams"

 

I know we on this forum usually look down on sub- and ex-urbanites for their ignorance toward the problems with sprawl, but they're not idiots.  They know its a shopping mall just like we know its a shopping mall. 

 

And whether or not you care about my input (I'd say you cared enough to respond), I'm just saying that I don't understand how shopping (unhappily or not) at the worst possible form of retail (Great Northern) in one suburb is a good protest to a less-worse form of retail in another suburb.

Unfortunately I worked for an architecture firm that specializes in "lifestyle" centers, and it's a bulls#%t marketing ploy that I simply don't want to be a part of.  I don't like going to either, but until we get the stores in the city, I've decided not to patronize the skim-urbanism of Crocker Park and Legacy Village.  That's all there is to it. 

Fair enough.

Unfortunately I worked for an architecture firm that specializes in "lifestyle" centers, and it's a bulls#%t marketing ploy that I simply don't want to be a part of.  I don't like going to either, but until we get the stores in the city, I've decided not to patronize the skim-urbanism of Crocker Park and Legacy Village.  That's all there is to it. 

The problem is there really isn't much of a market in the intercity for those stores at this point.  Look at the location of both centers mentioned.  They are surrounded by wealth.  I would love to see the stores in the intercity also, but I think we have sometime until that happens.

As another refugee from that neck of the woods, I think Vulpster nailed it.  Unless you understand how hardcore anti-urban most of the people are in the far western suburbs are you can't understand why Crocker Park is a net benefit for the cause of urbanism in NE Ohio.  Most people that I know from Avon/Avon Lake/etc, would see any structure built up to the street as "ghetto", if they see anyone walking anywhere but to/from their car (excluding soccer moms on "power walks") they would consider that "ghetto", if they see any building more than one story tall (excluding their French chateau inspired McMansion with the 20 foot tall roof) they would consider that "ghetto", if they see any building built immediately adjacent to another building, without a little buffer hill, they would consider that "ghetto", if they see anyone sitting or socializing in a public space, they would see that as "ghetto".  Crocker Park shatters all of those illusions and shows that something beyond what they are used to can be viable and indeed desirable.  It's a first step, but a step in the right direction.

Unfortunately I worked for an architecture firm that specializes in "lifestyle" centers, and it's a bulls#%t marketing ploy that I simply don't want to be a part of.  I don't like going to either, but until we get the stores in the city, I've decided not to patronize the skim-urbanism of Crocker Park and Legacy Village.  That's all there is to it. 

The problem is there really isn't much of a market in the intercity for those stores at this point.  Look at the location of both centers mentioned.  They are surrounded by wealth.  I would love to see the stores in the intercity also, but I think we have sometime until that happens.

 

Really?...

"Look at the location of both centers mentioned.  They are surrounded by wealth."

 

Given that most of the Cleveland metro's wealth is concentrated in the 'burbs - look at the location of Cleveland, it's surrounded by wealth (and equidistant from the east, west and south sides).

Tower City had high end stores in a mall fasion that suburbanites are used to, and they still did not cater to them.  Developers are not really looking at a demographic of a 30 mile readius, they are looking at a much tighter demographic.  

Basically what I am saying is that if a developer presents a proposed retail center to several national retailers for possible tenancy and says within a 30 mile radius of this center, there is a household income of $84,000 and a median age of 42, the retailers are going to say, who cares.  What are the demographics within 5 miles of your location.  I don't want to start an arguement here, but at this point, that is why we are not yet seeing the high end retailers along Euclid, Superior, Prospect etc.  In time, probably.  Sometimes I get nervous that the downfall of Tower City and the Galleria scare high end, or any end, retailers away.  hopefully I am wrong.  But again, at the time of their opening, there was no money at all downtown as far as residents go.  therefore, there wasn't that 24/7 market.

I think the decline of TC is somewhat overstated. No it doesn't have Fendi anymore, but compare it with the regions other malls, excluding Beachwood, LV and CP and it really isn't THAT bad. Sure no department stores, but the same stores as your average mall. Remember it could be Randall Park Mall, i.e. a complete disaster.

First off, holy cow! I knew there was some serious suburban love out "yonder," but the description of West Side makes my upbringing in Cuyahoga Falls sound positively urban ;) When I was little, we walked home from our schools in packs live roving dogs. Each afternoon we'd throw rock's at Dick Goddard's face on a billboard across the street from the grocery store. Then when somebody told us to stop, we went sprinting into alleys and down the street. That's the kind of stuff I feel sorry for kids not having anymore. Just having a real neighborhood!

 

When it comes to Crocker Park, I have nothing against it. The only store I really like is H&M just because they sell slimmer more exciting young clothing for doods. It's impossible to find modern clothing at an affordable price around here. The other stores are pretty much the same ol' thang.  As far as design goes, it doesn't work for me. It's too much like a movie set. The sidestreets dead-end into a parking deck, and does anyone else thing it's f-ing bizarre there's that plaza/park/square thing that opens up into a majestic....Dick's Sporting Goods. In a traditional city, that kind of look would be reserved for truly important buildings. I hear people at the place saying how great it is. It makes me wonder if they've ever stepped foot in a real city.

When it comes to Crocker Park, I have nothing against it. The only store I really like is H&M just because they sell slimmer more exciting young clothing for doods. It's impossible to find modern clothing at an affordable price around here. The other stores are pretty much the same ol' thang.   ...

 

 

JamieC...I was in your corner right up to the word, "is".  I have such high hopes for you!  :laugh:

H and M - China junk.YOu probaly have twenty shirts in you closet and only use 5 shirts.

 

Junk food junk clothing junk sports team(cavs being swept-get rid of lebron) junk cars-ford taurus)) This society has to stop making junk and start to profess quality.

 

I carry quality in my store for ladies,at very cheep prices.and i see all these ladies with junk on them,looking very trashy.

H and M - China junk.

 

I like you!!!

Bashing LeBron in the Crocker Park forum.  That's a new one.  H&M is garbage though.  I give you that. 

WELL I'm sorry I can't afford a $100 tie from some master tailor in Italy! AND I'M NOT A GIRL! At least I'm not buying clothes at Wal-Mart like some guys.

WELL I'm sorry I can't afford a $100 tie from some master tailor in Italy! AND I'M NOT A GIRL! At least I'm not buying clothes at Wal-Mart like some guys.

 

OMG, I can't believe you used the "w" word!

 

OK JamieC......relax, relate, release....  Inhale and hold........ :-D  No slowly exhale....... :-)

 

 

WELL I'm sorry I can't afford a $100 tie from some master tailor in Italy! AND I'M NOT A GIRL! At least I'm not buying clothes at Wal-Mart like some guys.

 

It's not a $$ thing at all.  I just have had quality issues with their clothes so I stay away. 

I'd say 90% of the clothes I've picked up at H&M have been just fine - they're good for basics with a twist.

 

And Edsiou - I work across the street from your store and every time I've walked by - I've never seen anyone in there. If you're really concerned about ladies looking trashy, you might want to consider a different approach than insulting them - then they might consider buying your "cheep" inventory :-)

who could have quality issues with cheap clothes?

 

at this price level, i have more quality issues with old navy than h&m. after you wash them the old navy shirts wrinkle up so bad, they take too much extra ironing. of course you get what you paid for. however, i dont notice that problem so much with the similar h&m or uniqlo shirts.

Well, I never said the stuff was made well, ;) It just allows me to continue attempting to look hip in my post-collegiate, mid-20s hipster age. I can't get away with wearing oddball stuff from the thrift store anymore, lol

40 yrs old and still wearing thrift store's finest, thank you very much, and wearing them well.

 

Exactly what does all of the above have to do with Crocker Park (other than it has an H and M store as does Beachwood Place)?  I feel like I clicked on the thread under false pretenses.

^ That happened to me too, once. But I had to pay anyway.

 

BTW, the Crocker Park H&M is the only one with the full collection of menswear. And now we're relevant again! Claps all 'round.

False pretenses? Is it really surprising that a thread about a suburban lifestyle center on a forum like UrbanOhio might get sidetracked? The above has nothing to do with Crocker Park but has your quality of life really deteriorated because the thread isn't 100% specifically Crocker Park oriented? Would you like a refund?

 

This is the best we can do for you...

 

 

 

I just got a job at Crocker Park, y'all, so no more bashing pls.

May Day.  I will forego the refund.  Just pay up with some interesting talk about urban (or suburbans) issues rather than t-shirts.

On that score, I can't fault Stark. But I don't like it when people who should know better call Crocker Park something it's not. Like Westlake Mayor Dennis Clough calling it "downtown Westlake." Or RTA GM Joe Calabrese calling it a transit-oriented development when no effort was made to substitute transit accessibility for parking needs. In reality, transit was a minor afterthought at Crocker Park. The place is simply faux urbanism. Even Stark called it a laboratory experiment for what he wants to do in downtown Cleveland (a real downtown!).

 

Seriously?!! I was always under the impression that transit needs to be there before the development in order for it to be called TOD.  Unless Calbrese wants us to believe that there were buses trudging around and making stops in the woodland and fields that were there before Crocker was built.  Sheesh.

 

That said, I like Crocker for its attempt at new urbanism, compared to similar projects in the area (I can't stand Legacy or Eton).  On the other hand, unless you got a car or are lucky enough to live near a bus route that makes a stop there, I'd imagine walking there from the outside would be quite a hellish experience.  It really irks me when developers trump their shopping centers as being "pedestrian friendly" when pedestrian access to the place is inadequate or non-existent.

^Neither Eton or Legacy claim to fall in the New Urbanism mold.  They are just shopping centers and don't pretend to be more than that.  Eton was a shopping center (small boutiques) since the mid to late 70's.  I believe the attached office building was constructed before Stark owned the property (although I may be wrong...it is about 10 years old).  All Stark did was rebuild the shopping center and he certainly has never claimed he was following new urbanism principles (and in fact it would be difficult on such a small lot).

 

I recall reading an article when Legacy first open (I think it was by Steve Litt) where the architect admitted the place was nothing more than a life style center...in other words...shopping.  There is minimal mix use (small amount of office space but even La Place had that for a while and it was built in the 70's before the idea of New urbanism) and obviously no housing.  Legacy does not follow New Urbanism principals and never intended to do so.  So like it or hate it, it is what it is.  A life style center like so many being built across the country.

 

By the way...If Crocker Park is "new urbanism" it is a mediocre attempt.

"They liked the sprawling shopping malls like Great Northern, and big box developments with restaurant out parcels like Avon Commons"

 

I question that - I think people have specific needs from specific stores, and sprawl-malls and big-boxes are the unfortunate model. Until Crocker Park, there simply wasn't any choice for mainstream retail - you were forced into a shamelessly auto-centric model. I seriously doubt that people look at swaths of asphalt and sigh "... ahh, this is the life."

http://www.cityofwestlake.org/business/RecDevProj.php

 

No, I think people really do depart their three-car garages, drive down suburban mainstreets with landscaped mound buffers, pull up to their job in a new corporate office park, stop at Avon Commons after to work to run errands, and head out to a chain restaurant with their family and think to themselves "... ahh, this is the life." Abundant parking, low density and the "newness" of suburbs is very desirable for a lot of people and think they are living the high life.

 

As another refugee from that neck of the woods, I think Vulpster nailed it.  Unless you understand how hardcore anti-urban most of the people are in the far western suburbs are you can't understand why Crocker Park is a net benefit for the cause of urbanism in NE Ohio.  Most people that I know from Avon/Avon Lake/etc, would see any structure built up to the street as "ghetto", if they see anyone walking anywhere but to/from their car (excluding soccer moms on "power walks") they would consider that "ghetto", if they see any building more than one story tall (excluding their French chateau inspired McMansion with the 20 foot tall roof) they would consider that "ghetto", if they see any building built immediately adjacent to another building, without a little buffer hill, they would consider that "ghetto", if they see anyone sitting or socializing in a public space, they would see that as "ghetto".  Crocker Park shatters all of those illusions and shows that something beyond what they are used to can be viable and indeed desirable.  It's a first step, but a step in the right direction.

 

Exactly. You'd be surprised how many people I know from the suburbs naively label something as "ghetto". Though Crocker Park didn't do anything for me to become more urban-inclined, I really see how many people living out there exposed to Crocker Park could see now how walkability and mixed-use could be more desirable than constant travel between places by car.

 

That said, I like Crocker for its attempt at new urbanism, compared to similar projects in the area (I can't stand Legacy or Eton).  On the other hand, unless you got a car or are lucky enough to live near a bus route that makes a stop there, I'd imagine walking there from the outside would be quite a hellish experience.  It really irks me when developers trump their shopping centers as being "pedestrian friendly" when pedestrian access to the place is inadequate or non-existent.

 

Though I see some shortcomings, I think Crocker Park's attempt at new urbanism is good for no other fact than it did more than the immediate market area consumer would have expected. Stark had to fight to get Crocker Park approved, because Westlake didn't want anything resembling density and mixed-use. Stark took some chances, like building parking garages for instance.

 

I'm more supportive of Crocker Park, because I saw the 20-year development parttern on the outer west side first hand, and can appreciate how much Crocker Park broke that pattern. I'm also familar with Crocker and Detroit Road in Westlake before Crocker Park. The whole area is more pedestrian friendly after Crocker Park was built, because the city of Westlake has put wide sidewalks up and down Crocker, and installed crossing signals at intersections. And even though Crocker Park is not directly set up on Crocker Road, its pretty darn close. Its nothing like Legacy or Easton where you pull in at the entrance and have a long drive until you arrive. With Crocker Park, you basicly go around a corner from Crocker Road and you're there.

 

I've also been walking to Crocker Park from a job on Detroit Road in Westlake during my lunch break (until I get full-time salary employment in the city). It isn't that bad of a experience. I can walk, grab something to eat and head back in a half hour. And last summer when I worked downtown, I used Crocker Park as a park-n-ride pretty easily with no problems.  While I don't know how many people are walking into Crocker Park, I know there are is a significant amount of people (especially kids) who ride their bikes there. You can't do stuff like that in North Olmsted, Beachwood, or Strongsville.

 

 

I know quite a few people who bike to Beachwood (and ditch their bikes in the trees near Saks) and walk to Legacy. I've seen folks from those midrise apartments walk across the street to Beachwood as well.

 

Westfield Southpark is another beast entirely.

i think this project will have the following effect on westlake residents. ooooh wow... did you see...bob stark is building another crocker park downtown.

I agree with that.  I think that it is a good thing, too.  Let them come to downtown via that route, as long as they come.

 

Though I see some shortcomings, I think Crocker Park's attempt at new urbanism is good for no other fact than it did more than the immediate market area consumer would have expected. Stark had to fight to get Crocker Park approved, because Westlake didn't want anything resembling density and mixed-use. Stark took some chances, like building parking garages for instance.

 

 

Their planning director was on Starks side. It was a matter of convincing those who were, for lack of a better term, ignorant about density and mixed-use.

By the way...If Crocker Park is "new urbanism" it is a mediocre attempt.

 

I agree with that.  But when compared to a lot of suburban retail development, especially on the West side, Crocker certainly does a better attempt at density and urbanism (if you can call it that).

Cheep Clothing. Hell . the company I deal with does work for Hugo Boss. I think Saks or Nieman Marcus at beechwood has the stuff they actaully make.

I work with the gallery,so the clerk  for the gallery,does work for me.she is not the realiable.

 

Ill probaly be closing the store for the time being untill I can get some refinancing.Still looking for investors.

 

 

 

 

I'd say 90% of the clothes I've picked up at H&M have been just fine - they're good for basics with a twist.

 

And Edsiou - I work across the street from your store and every time I've walked by - I've never seen anyone in there. If you're really concerned about ladies looking trashy, you might want to consider a different approach than insulting them - then they might consider buying your "cheep" inventory :-)

From West Life, 7/4/07:

 

 

Hotel planned at corner of Crocker, Detroit

Rezoning ordinance would require voter approval

By Kevin Kelley

Westlake

Published July 4, 2007

 

Stark Enterprises, the main developer of Crocker Park, has submitted plans to the city which would add The Promenade shopping center and a 6.8-acre lot at the corner of Crocker and Detroit roads to the Crocker Park planned unit development (PUD) district.

 

According to Bob Parry, Westlakes director of planning and economic development, the proposal is being made so Stark can build a hotel at the corner of Crocker and Detroit road.

 

Stark wants to build a hotel with retail businesses on the first floor, Parry said.

 

Retail would not be allowed under the citys hotel-motel zoning category, Parry said, so Stark wants to add the corner lot to Crocker Parks existing PUD district, which allows for mixed use development.

 

READ MORE AT:

http://www.westlifenews.com/2007/07-04/rezonehotel.html

 

Well lets hope Stark can get whoever this new hotel chain is, Apple, Puma and a few others at CP to sign up for deals in Downtown.

there's actually a zoning law preventing a hotel have a mixed use component?

Adding the Promenade to the PUD would be very good for the district. Even if nothing happened for another ten years, there ic clearly a large waste of space being used by the surface parking and redeveloping this section would add significantly to CP's impact and presence in the region.

 

About ten years ago or so, they tried to pass a rezoning of this corner lot to expand the Promenade, but it lost. IIRC, the buildings then would have not been facing the street. Its remained empty since then. I beleive this is a great time for this to happen.

there's actually a zoning law preventing a hotel have a mixed use component?

 

It's Westlake, does this surprise you?

 

Crocker Park has always seemed like a couple of things to me:

 

First, as far as the buildings go, it seems liek one of those test freeways they build out in the middle of nowhere.  It's a decent concept and built fairly nice, but it's out of the way and out of place for what it is.

 

Second, as far as the people visiting it, it's like a zoo.  Go there, see the animals (urbanist stylings) out of their original context, enjoy, leave, and go back to your "modus operandi".

Expect another vicious battle between Stark and the neighbors to the west of the Promenade. The battle, joined and funded by Dick Jacobs, in 2000 over the rezoning for Crocker Park was as brutal as any I've seen in my 14 years at Sun News -- and guess who was assigned to cover it for Sun?!?!? I was so glad when the election came and went that, by the time it was over, I didn't care what the vote was.

Crocker Park stealing businesses from Galleria.

 

Memories,just closed in Galleria and is set to open up in crocker park.

 

 

I'm also guessing that Max's Deli from Rocky River is moving to Crocker Park. The owners announced somewhere in the press that they were moving their location a little farther west. One can only speculate that its Crocker Park.

 

 

^^ WTF! Why?!!

When I heard that Max's was moving further west (due to "not enough parking," from what I've heard), I assumed they were going to move a few blocks away or something. But damn it if they move to Crooker Park... :whip:

moving further west (due to "not enough parking," from what I've heard)

 

Sounds like a boycott is in order...

H and M - China junk.YOu probaly have twenty shirts in you closet and only use 5 shirts.

 

Junk food junk clothing junk sports team(cavs being swept-get rid of lebron) junk cars-ford taurus)) This society has to stop making junk and start to profess quality.

 

I carry quality in my store for ladies,at very cheep prices.and i see all these ladies with junk on them,looking very trashy.

 

Easy there I engineer and build the Ford Taurus :) The new ones are really Volvo's with a Ford logo on it.

 

OK, back to Cracker Park