^ Wow. Not quite like Pesht. More like pfffft.

^^ Puke. I buy only Hallmark going forward.

^^ Puke. I buy only Hallmark going forward.

 

Tough subject. I'm eternally upset with AG for senselessly killing the drive-in theatre. But they also employ and support good friends of mine who are graphic designers (from Phoenix, South Florida, Grand Haven) who wouldn't be here otherwise.

Amen.

They could be in Chicago.

At least Westlake is closer to downtown CLE than Schaumburg or Oak Brook!!!

My mind says I can't begrudge the company for developing a property that the family already owns. But my heart just says 'blah'

 

It could be worse. It's not the toilet bowl Eaton is building.

Amen.

They could be in Chicago.

At least Westlake is closer to downtown CLE than Schaumburg or Oak Brook!!!

 

I cannot believe that after everything people still believe the whole Chicago thing.

Can you imagine how differently we'd feel about the new construction of Eaton and American Greetings headquarters - if they were downtown instead?  Talk about seemingly wasted opportunities...

^Yep, Could've been two Erie view/BP Sized properties.

 

I cannot believe that after everything people still believe the whole Chicago thing.

 

Really?

Did you think BP would move to Chicago?  What about Office Max?

Not quite the same situation but a move here was certainly possible.

I'm thankful that a NEO company decided to stay in NEO. 

THAT'S what I believe.

With a well known CLE family running the show at AG for many years, I couldn't fathom them going to CHI either... Office Max, started here, was sold off to a corporation by the time they moved. BP - different story, too..

I'm not a fan of AG moving to Westlake but I can't blame them for doing it. They have a stake in the project. Its no different than what the Wexlers have done with Easton and New Albany. Not every company wants to be in an urban area, just like not everyone wants to live in one. That's just reality. And Crocker Park is much better designed than Chagrin Highlands or some corporate campus in Independence, Mentor or Medina.

 

I'm not sure why there's such a hate for CP. We should be encouraging more developments like it in the burbs, not slapping it down. Its not perfect, but its not some ugly large big box strip mall either. I prefer this to Avon Commons, heck I prefer it to Steelyard which outside of its location, is just another strip mall. Development in the outer burbs is pretty much inevitable, lets at least try to make it as urban as possible. I don't think CP was done perfectly but its not awful for a new urbanist lifestyle center. I've seen much worse in other areas, not to mention in our own backyard (Legacy).

 

And I really don't get the hate for AG. Holding a grudge against a local company is silly. Many on this board are pro-regional but only if it helps the city itself. IMHO, that's not really how regionalism should work. The entire area should be supporting and encouraging each other. Cleveland and its burbs have a long ways to go on that but Westlake is part of the region and AG is a local company. Supporting a company out of KC instead of a homegrown company out of spite isn't a good idea. I don't see how that promotes the region or helps Northeast Ohio at all. The AG employees will be dining at area restaurants, going to the theater district, etc. AG is a major sponsor of the zoo, orchestra and Playhouse Square. I don't see how anyone should boycott that.

^Very well said and thanks for taking the time to spell out your thoughts and keep the discussions going....yet I am totally unconvinced by any of your points.

I'm not a fan of AG moving to Westlake but I can't blame them for doing it. They have a stake in the project. Its no different than what the Wexlers have done with Easton and New Albany. Not every company wants to be in an urban area, just like not everyone wants to live in one. That's just reality. And Crocker Park is much better designed than Chagrin Highlands or some corporate campus in Independence, Mentor or Medina.

 

I'm not sure why there's such a hate for CP. We should be encouraging more developments like it in the burbs, not slapping it down. Its not perfect, but its not some ugly large big box strip mall either. I prefer this to Avon Commons, heck I prefer it to Steelyard which outside of its location, is just another strip mall. Development in the outer burbs is pretty much inevitable, lets at least try to make it as urban as possible. I don't think CP was done perfectly but its not awful for a new urbanist lifestyle center. I've seen much worse in other areas, not to mention in our own backyard (Legacy).

 

And I really don't get the hate for AG. Holding a grudge against a local company is silly. Many on this board are pro-regional but only if it helps the city itself. IMHO, that's not really how regionalism should work. The entire area should be supporting and encouraging each other. Cleveland and its burbs have a long ways to go on that but Westlake is part of the region and AG is a local company. Supporting a company out of KC instead of a homegrown company out of spite isn't a good idea. I don't see how that promotes the region or helps Northeast Ohio at all. The AG employees will be dining at area restaurants, going to the theater district, etc. AG is a major sponsor of the zoo, orchestra and Playhouse Square. I don't see how anyone should boycott that.

 

I actually agree completely.

I'm not a fan of AG moving to Westlake but I can't blame them for doing it. They have a stake in the project. Its no different than what the Wexlers have done with Easton and New Albany. Not every company wants to be in an urban area, just like not everyone wants to live in one. That's just reality. And Crocker Park is much better designed than Chagrin Highlands or some corporate campus in Independence, Mentor or Medina.

 

I'm not sure why there's such a hate for CP. We should be encouraging more developments like it in the burbs, not slapping it down. Its not perfect, but its not some ugly large big box strip mall either. I prefer this to Avon Commons, heck I prefer it to Steelyard which outside of its location, is just another strip mall. Development in the outer burbs is pretty much inevitable, lets at least try to make it as urban as possible. I don't think CP was done perfectly but its not awful for a new urbanist lifestyle center. I've seen much worse in other areas, not to mention in our own backyard (Legacy).

 

And I really don't get the hate for AG. Holding a grudge against a local company is silly. Many on this board are pro-regional but only if it helps the city itself. IMHO, that's not really how regionalism should work. The entire area should be supporting and encouraging each other. Cleveland and its burbs have a long ways to go on that but Westlake is part of the region and AG is a local company. Supporting a company out of KC instead of a homegrown company out of spite isn't a good idea. I don't see how that promotes the region or helps Northeast Ohio at all. The AG employees will be dining at area restaurants, going to the theater district, etc. AG is a major sponsor of the zoo, orchestra and Playhouse Square. I don't see how anyone should boycott that.

 

I actually agree completely.

 

 

cosign

I'm not a fan of Crocker Park and probably would have preferred AG to stay close to urbanized Cleveland.  But I don't have a problem with this move.  While I don't recall the details, there were a no. of problems with the Brooklyn building that the suburb aparently (IIRC) wasn't (allegedly) assisting AG in abating.  Even through Brooklyn is an enclave-type suburb surrounded on 3-sides by Cleveland, it is still a suburb and not Cleveland.  Westlake is still in the county and AG had the option of leaving the region entirely but, instead, opted to stay, which I'm glad about.... Eaton, on the other hand, bolted downtown Cleveland for Chagrin Highlands when it could have either opted-in to the Flats East Bank project, currently rising, or expanded their current downtown HQ on E. 12.  I too am glad Eaton stayed withing the county/metro area, but Eaton voluntarily bolted (and injured) downtown, so I'm somewhat p.o.'d at them while I'm not at all at AG.

A strong region depends on a strong core. AG and Eaton leaving the city (or was AG inner ring) do not benefit Cleveland whatsoever. New casinos and restaurants and residents are nice but they don't even come close to the importance of decent to well paying jobs in the core city. Musical chairs with jobs hurts the city as a whole unless they land downtown.

^ I agree with that. But at the same time, I'm tired of pitting suburb vs. city and vice versa. That's not good for the region either. I consider it to be NEO vs. The World. Regionalism works both ways. If a company chooses to stay here over somewhere else, or move to a burb from another region, I consider it a win.

 

It's just not reasonable to think every major company will be in the inner core. I wish it wasn't that way but you need to play with the cards you're dealt and NEO has lost way too many companies to other regions. I don't think the area can afford to be picky about where a company chooses to locate. A local company is much better than one on its way to NC. The employees of AG and Eaton support the region as do the corporations themselves. I don't think they should be labeled as enemies because they are in the burbs. They are still important cogs.

 

And considering what could've gone where Crocker Park now sits, I'm happy with it. It's better than some cookie cutter subdivision or strip mall/office park surrounded by concrete. That land was going to be developed. Stark wasn't gonna keep it empty to make a statement about urban sprawl.

I also agree with Mwd711 on most of the points made.  Regarding Crocker Park, it's very similar to the Grove here in LA.  I prefer the Grove and by extension Crocker Park to another Bevery Center (a huge life sucking mall here in LA) or a mall in the suburbs surrounded by parking lots.  At least the Grove and CP provide a walkable outdoor experience and use parking garages to mitigate the sprawl.  I realize that it's not an "authentic" urban experience, but I don't always want to go hang out on the corner of Alvarado and Wilshire Blvd. to get my urban on.

No matter what, suburbs will always co-exist with big cities.  If suburbs are going to contimue to develop, the Crocker Park"esqe" development is more of what I want to see versus Parmatown, Great Northern, or South Park.  I will say Crocker is alot better than Legacy, however, lets not turn this thread into that comparison.

I wish AG had gone to Pesht, but I am glad Bob Stark did get his building.  I think it will be an exciting development.  Reading some of the above comments makes me wonder if the "urbanists" of 150 years ago decried development of far flung areas such as E105 and Euclid. 

I wish AG had gone to Pesht, but I am glad Bob Stark did get his building.  I think it will be an exciting development.  Reading some of the above comments makes me wonder if the "urbanists" of 150 years ago decried development of far flung areas such as E105 and Euclid. 

 

You mean the East 105th and Euclid where they built to the sidewalk (instead of a gated community....and if you don't think Crocker Park is a commerical version of a gated community then you ignore the bunker parking garages that front it on Crocker and the fact that hardly anybody walks into the "bunker" to visit fantasy land.

^ with all those angry spartans, shelbyvillers, homeless hordes and ghetto gang bangers out front?! can you blame them for building it like that?  :laugh:

I just wonder what these "artificial" downtowns will look like in 20 to 30 years when the designs are tired, maintenance is lacking and demographics are shifting.  How far can suburbanites flee?  Will Crocker Park look like Southland, Parmatown or Shoregate in 30 years?  Section 8 apartments over top of Dollar General?

I just wonder what these "artificial" downtowns will look like in 20 to 30 years when the designs are tired, maintenance is lacking and demographics are shifting.  How far can suburbanites flee?  Will Crocker Park look like Southland, Parmatown or Shoregate in 30 years?  Section 8 apartments over top of Dollar General?

 

While I was over @ Midway Mall in Elyria yesterday I was thinking the exact same thing.

it's an interesting thought but i don't think it's really a likely outcome.  The quality of design & materials & maintenance that went in to Crocker Park & Legacy Village is so much higher than Parmatown or Midway Mall in Elyria.  There's also a mixed use component built into Crocker Park which was never part of the other projects.

While I would have loved to see AG move downtown or to an inner-ring suburban downtown like Lakewood's, I think this is the next best thing. I think the worst would have been having AG do what Eaton or Ferro or Progressive did by moving to an auto-centric campus.

 

Besides, AG was never in downtown. So we did not lose anything by them moving from Brooklyn to Westlake. If anything, they improved their surroundings by moving from a campus that was far off the main roads to a setting that is far more accessible by modes of travel. To urbanists like us, it's still a faux downtown. To folks like AG's execs, they probably see it is a major, progressive statement about their company becoming more sustainable and embracing new urbanism! It all depends on your frame of reference and where you've been.

^I'll try not to drag this further off topic, but I think part of the reason people on this thread have a disdain for crocker park is that we wish something like that would be built in the city.  The only reason that I dislike it is that it's built in a far flung exurb.  It's a nice mixed-use development.  If they would have built something similar to that on the WHD lots with maybe a little added height people here would be singing it's praises.

I wouldn't complain about Crocker Park so much if it was built on Crocker Road, rather than as some Disney-esque oasis that's not integrated with its surroundings at all. If Crocker Park was built at the intersection of Crocker and Detroit roads, or at Dover Center and Center Ridge roads -- as in, along those streets -- then it would have made a downtown for Westlake.

 

Otherwise it smacks of an amusement park's main street without the amusement park. It's amazing how many American developers have forgotten how -- and where -- to build urban environments. We were very good at it until the 15 years of Great Depression/World War II.

 

Then we forgot how to do it and began designing cities to accommodate the geometrics of maneuvering and storing cars rather than for accommodating people. In the decades since WWII, we're still trying to remember how we used to do it in the previous 5,000 years.

^^KJP I agree with you 100%.  My objection to Crocker Park is not that it was built in Westlake or what it is, but the fact that it was not built up to Detroit and Crocker and failed to make a downtown for the city (which did not, and does not, exist).  Those set backs and bunker parking garages makes it feel like some sort of retail gated community.

 

However, and I might be wrong about this, I do have some vague recollection that this was Westlake's fault (which I can believe) and not Stark's.  In other words Stark wanted to build to the existing street grid and the plan was rejected by the city.  I also have some recollection that he wanted the library (or maybe it was city hall...or maybe both) located in the complex and the city nixed that as well.  This would of course given it much more synergy.

I wouldn't complain about Crocker Park so much if it was built on Crocker Road, rather than as some -esque oasis that's not integrated with its surroundings at all. If Crocker Park was built at the intersection of Crocker and Detroit roads, or at Dover Center and Center Ridge roads -- as in, along those streets -- then it would have made a downtown for Westlake.

 

Otherwise it smacks of an amusement park's main street without the amusement park. It's amazing how many American developers have forgotten how -- and where -- to build urban environments. We were very good at it until the 15 years of Great Depression/World War II.

 

Nobody has "forgotten" how to build a proper urban environment and I'd bet a month's salary that if the developer (Stark) had the opportunity to build in a downtown area they would have jumped at it.  You're totally ignoring the excessive cost to purchase, acquire and develop a massive project like Crocker Park.  It would be nearly impossible to buy out enough private landholders in a downtown environment to even build a third of it.

 

Compare Hudson's "First & Main" development.  Similar in nature, built to resemble a walkable, albeit recreated, downtown feel.  Some on-street parking, but mostly parking in structures hidden back in the corners.  For what it is, it's very well done.  Hudson also had a single large property, who's former owner escapes me, but it wasn't a greenfield previously.  Nevertheless, dealing with a single owner of such a large parcel, located right on the fringe of downtown made it tremendously attractive.

 

Look at Steelyard Commons - developed in an urban area on a single piece of property obtained from a single owner.  Or look at East Fourth - that project took years in court and questionable use of "blight" designation to assemble those properties.  Also note it's not even a fraction of the size of Crocker Park.  I would also point out that storefronts are struggling in that area because the rents are too high.  Some market forces you just can't get around.

But Weston holds an 'option' to build on a massive piece of property downtown, no?  I am as practical as they come when talking what it takes to build a massive mixed use propert, but land availability in downtown is not the issue...... the issue is market demand for such a development downtown.  The demand was there in Westlake for CP.... it was there in Lyndhrst/Beachwood for LV...... if and when that demand hits the CBD, then there will be a line pf developers outside City Hall seeking to have their plans approved

^yes Weston holds several prime pieces of parking downtown.  But "demand" is only half the story.  Selling t-shirts at Abercrombie in Westlake is not the same as selling them in a newly built storefront downtown Cleveland.  Much like the residential gains in Cleveland have all been in reconverted existing buildings, the cost would be too much for new construction.  Demand for a $20 t-shirt is good but that same t-shirt downtown would have to sell for $35 and demand goes away.

Nobody has "forgotten" how to build a proper urban environment and I'd bet a month's salary that if the developer (Stark) had the opportunity to build in a downtown area they would have jumped at it.  You're totally ignoring the excessive cost to purchase, acquire and develop a massive project like Crocker Park.  It would be nearly impossible to buy out enough private landholders in a downtown environment to even build a third of it.

 

It's pretty hard for me to ignore the cost because I was right in the middle of that rezoning fight. I was the Westlake reporter for Sun Newspapers for nine years, including before, during and after Crocker Park was proposed, debated and constructed. We had principals for both sides coming into Sun Newspapers EVERY DAY to meet with me and try one-up the other side. In the days before Crocker Park's rezoning issue appeared on the ballot, I had to throw these folks out my office because they were getting on my friggin' nerves and we were just rehashing the same old BS. I know that Stark spent more than $400 million on this project, and he already owned land along Crocker going up north to the SW corner of Detroit. He also developed the nearby Promenade shopping center which was his to re-do (such as with outlots built along the south side of Detroit Road. The issue was not money. It was his evolving awareness of urbanity, which I discussed with Stark personally many times.

 

I have also interviewed many other developers (Jacobs, Valore, Kopf, Biskind, Regalbuto, etc) who do not understand the benefits of urbanism/pedestrianism in their designs and have belittled those who suggested doing so. I have also interviewed developers who have evolved in their thinking to incorporate urbanism/pedestrianism (Stark, Zaremba, Wolstein, Price, Fishman, Gillespie, Finch, etc). And there are those who have understood it all along (Maron).

 

Compare Hudson's "First & Main" development.  Similar in nature, built to resemble a walkable, albeit recreated, downtown feel.  Some on-street parking, but mostly parking in structures hidden back in the corners.  For what it is, it's very well done.  Hudson also had a single large property, who's former owner escapes me, but it wasn't a greenfield previously.  Nevertheless, dealing with a single owner of such a large parcel, located right on the fringe of downtown made it tremendously attractive.

 

I love First and Main. It's what you get when something is incorporated into an existing downtown or street grid.

 

Look at Steelyard Commons - developed in an urban area on a single piece of property obtained from a single owner.  Or look at East Fourth - that project took years in court and questionable use of "blight" designation to assemble those properties.  Also note it's not even a fraction of the size of Crocker Park.  I would also point out that storefronts are struggling in that area because the rents are too high.  Some market forces you just can't get around.

 

I don't recall suggesting that market forces need to be ignored. If anything, they need to be embraced so we can better compete with metro areas that offer greater urbanity than we do.

You're still ignoring that "First & Main" was done because there was a large parcel available immediately next to the downtown which allowed the downtown grid to be extended & incorporated.  Had something similar been available closer to what resembles downtown Westlake, I'm sure that would've been the primary site selection.  Or maybe it would've still been the current site, which is very large, was a greenfield site, and had highway access a few hundred yards away... 

 

How many private landowners did Stark have to buy out to acquire the property which is now Crocker Park?

 

Perhaps the answer is to just go ahead & make Crocker Park the formal downtown of Westlake.  Put the post office there, the library, maybe the city offices in one of the new buildings....

I'm not ignoring it. I just place less emphasis on it than you do.

 

Westlake just built a new, palatial city hall. They aren't moving any offices from it.

Or look at East Fourth - that project took years in court and questionable use of "blight" designation to assemble those properties. 

 

I think you have this confused with another project.  If not, please source.

My source was Ari Maron himself, but a quick google search found some articles backing that up:

 

Nick “Red” Hillman, the Rathskeller’s owner, wanted to be included in the City’s redevelopment plans, but was told that he would have to give up his location unless he agreed to make his bar upscale, so that it would be a fitting establishment for the patrons of the upscale retail shops being planned. According to Hillman, he would have had to pay three times his normal rent, so he could ‘fit in’ with the rest of the area’s renovations. After the Cleveland City Council declared the area around East 4th Street to be blighted, Hillman and other area business owners were forced to make a choice—either finance costly repairs on their buildings and change their clientele or risk losing the building through eminent domain

 

http://castlecoalition.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=452&Itemid=130

"First and Main" is not connected very well to the existing downtown in my opinion. Its awkwardly placed away from the old downtown and divided by a large parking lot. It acts as its own entity, and not part of the existing downtown. And I was just saying Crocker Park destroys Eton which is hideous and has even worse street frontage.

Crains:  American Greetings delays plan for new Westlake HQ

 

"The company is pausing the Crocker Park project in light of a proposed go-private offer from Zev and Jeffrey Weiss, its CEO and chief operating officer, respectively, and other members of the Weiss family."

 

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20121128/FREE/121129845

I don't exactly think First and Main is in the same league with the enormity of Crocker Park, even if you include Hudson's historic downtown drag. While I haven't been out to Hudson yet to be honest, Crocker is very impressive even in a day and age that lifestyle centers have popped up like weeds across the country. It could have been a LOT more ideal, but I'm not sure if interacting with the 6-lane boulevard that passes it would have accomplished that. It should have been built around a rapid stop, but at least the RTA buses are allowed in - most other shopping malls don't.

"Crocker Park in Westlake ready to add apartments, retail space"

 

http://www.cleveland.com/westlake/index.ssf/2013/12/crocker_park_in_westlake_ready.html#incart_river#incart_m-rpt-2

 

This is the first time that I agree with the sentiment of most of the comment posters. Although at the same time, if we're going to be building more housing in the suburbs, building them at Crocker Park isn't the worst location. At least there's a walkable "downtown" with some transit connectivity, albeit limited.

Westlake passes legislation to move expansion of Crocker Park forward

By STAN BULLARD

8:23 am, February 7, 2014

 

Although detailed contracts remain to be signed and more than $50 million in bonds remain to be issued, Westlake Mayor Dennis Clough said he hopes to see “shovels in the ground” in about eight weeks for the city's part of the next phase of the Crocker Park mixed-use complex.

 

The key features of the project are a new headquarters for American Greetings Corp. and more apartments and retail space.

 

Westlake City Council passed legislation Thursday night, Feb. 6, to authorize the sale of bonds for parking garages, streets and other infrastructure supporting the project. Clough said he looks forward to the project that will import more than 1,300 employees to the city from Brooklyn as a "boon to the city.”

 

READ MORE AT:

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20140207/FREE/140209855

Crocker Park hotel, American Greetings plans move forward: Best of the beat

By Barb Galbincea, Northeast Ohio Media Group

on July 12, 2014 at 4:00 PM, updated July 12, 2014 at 4:03 PM

 

Here are some of the stories you may have missed in the last week from Bay Village, Rocky River and Westlake.

 

Coming soon: Construction is expected to start this summer on American Greetings' new headquarters and a Hyatt Place Hotel at Crocker Park. The Westlake Planning Commission recommended allowing both projects to move forward after reviewing the landscape/hardscape plans from American Greetings and the plans for the 110-room, six-story hotel. Planners still want to work out some remaining design details with the hotel developers before signing off entirely.

 

READ MORE AT:

http://www.cleveland.com/westlake/index.ssf/2014/07/crocker_park_hotel_american_gr.html

"@ssuttell: Westlake City Council allows American Greetings, Crocker Park hotel projects to move forward.

http://t.co/u4So0usDc9"

George J Pofok, CCIM ‏@GeorgePofok  4m

Progress continues at Crocker Park for @amgreetings pic.twitter.com/ypPOTvRH92

 

After American Greetings moves in, traffic in this part of Westlake will be really congested.  Much more congested than Independence or Downtown. the Westlake traffic engineer already seems determined to slow things down on the main arteries.

Word from folks at American Greetings is they are still skeptical as to whether Crocker is happening or not, regardless of very public work towards this building. Seems unlikely it is derailing but odd I keep hearing doubts

^Highly unlikely given the amount of work that has already been completed.

Word from folks at American Greetings is they are still skeptical as to whether Crocker is happening or not, regardless of very public work towards this building. Seems unlikely it is derailing but odd I keep hearing doubts

 

Even though infrastructure construction has started?

Yeah, I'm not so certain that American Greetings is going to rent their Brooklyn building from Stuart Lichters group for the rest of their existence.