January 10, 200718 yr Ok, I'm sick of wasting time on this thread. It looks like most other threads have suffered in the bombardment of this one.
January 10, 200718 yr To answer an earlier question, I would have liked to see the SYC site, and all of the Industrial Valley up to the Innerbelt's current location added onto the Cuyahoga Valley National Park. Of course, maximum benefit from this would be achieved if the Innerbelt was removed and all traffic was routed up 490 to 77, as per the rendering KJP posted on the Innerbelt thread. Imagine if a high density residential area built on the southern edge of Downtown fronted on the Cuyahoga Valley National Park!
January 10, 200718 yr Careful there, X. I suggested that idea way back in this thread, and it was promptly shot down as being inappropriate.
January 10, 200718 yr Have you ever stopped to think that it might not be the substance of your ideas that is the problem?
January 10, 200718 yr MTS, I will respond to your points in some detail later today. I intend to begin a new thread to elaborate more thoroughly on my frustrations with Cleveland, and what can be done with Cleveland to make it a better place to live and work. Dan, Could you follow through on your second idea? City Discussion might be a good place for it. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 11, 200718 yr Dan, Do you live in DC? The city has population of 570,000 due to the Census correction. Mind you a year after those revisted numbers DC lost 1,500 residents according to the latest Census numbers. It was just a correction. The population loss continues. Mind you..even with all the condos downtown...the fastest growing area in the DC metro is Loudoun County. DC thine name is really Ohio. But according to your past logic...it's ok to rip up farmfields as long the city is healty. Like DC dosen't have any empty lots. Your hand and mine are in the same problem. Difference is I already know this area is already f'd...I hope Ohio cities find a better model. I'll be looking forward to your manifesto...and helping to correct your 'facts'. BTW, if you live in Capitol Hill your closest mall is Iverson Mall in PG county. Not surprising you thought it was Arlington :)
January 12, 200718 yr I just wanted to comment on a point that KJP made about the W. 117th Target. How hard would it have been to turn the site plan upside down and let the store straddle W. 117th?! Something so simple would have created an entirely different atmosphere. I guess that could be said for suburbia, too. Put the cars in back, behind the buildings...Especially in more urban places. Now, people taking the bus will have to walk 1/2 mile to the store--or even better, the busses can waste time by making a little detour to the front of the store to drop off passengers. While one can argue for/against SYC, but the truth is that it's in its own little world in the valley and will impact its surrounding area in a very different manner that Stark's project or even the W. 117th Target. I'm much more upset with pushing back Target -(same with Home Depot, whenever that was built...) Anyways, off to Chicago again for one more semester!!! :clap: Can't wait to see new construction in May!
January 12, 200718 yr Target's original site plan suggests outlots are available closer to the street. See here: http://clevelandplanner.blogspot.com/2006/10/giant-eagle-likely-not-coming-to.html West 117th is on the right and the outlots are "C" and "D." Too bad lot B won't be developed anytime soon since Giant Eagle is opening in Westown. ****************** Good luck this semester. Its my last one, too.
January 13, 200718 yr Sublots or no sublots that plan still sucks. It's no different than anything you'd find in Strongsville. The store is still too far from the street and an Applebee's and Steak and Shake (just examples) would add as much character and vibrancy to the area as they did at the piece of trash town center in Brunswick... You all should see the new Marc's going into the old Giant Eagle next to Kmart...OMG :drunk: Ahhh! Anyways, not to get off subject, but the Target/Macy's/etc. center on Cedar would have been a better approach to W. 117th. There's a 'new' Target on Roosevelt in Chicago-couple of years old-that is 2 stories with a 3-4 level deck in the back and a new center with Whole foods, DSW, Bed Bath and Beyond and maybe something else opening soon that isn't incorporating acres of parking around the buildings. So, who has plans to run for Mayor of Cleveland?!
January 13, 200718 yr Sublots or no sublots that plan still sucks. It's no different than anything you'd find in Strongsville. The store is still too far from the street and an Applebee's and Steak and Shake (just examples) would add as much character and vibrancy to the area as they did at the piece of trash town center in Brunswick... You all should see the new Marc's going into the old Giant Eagle next to Kmart...OMG :drunk: Ahhh! IIRC, isn't this area not suitable for housing but suitable for commercial use. So being the real estate & planning expert you are, what can you suggest to create an enviornment that meets your standards?
January 13, 200718 yr No need to be nasty MTS. The guy has his preferences, as we all do. I, for one, despise the land use plan for the West 117th/Target site. The Councilwoman Dona Brady also wanted Target built next to West 117th. Between that and the Home Depot up the street, closer to the Red Line station, the emphasis is on automobile access and not the pedestrian. If I were mayor of Cleveland, I would have asked Home Depot to relocate to the Target site next to I-90 and then asked Target to take the Home Depot property and bulldoze it. In its place, I'd put Target next to West 117th at the northeast corner of the property, closest to the Rapid station and mix in some more retail and possibly some housing above. The Bob Stark-owned Staples Plaza across the street is also in need of replacement with a more pedestrian-oriented setting. Those features would more closely resemble Cudell Improvement Corp.'s land use plan for the area. See http://www.cleveland.oh.us/cudell/happening.htm "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 13, 200718 yr No need to be nasty MTS. The guy has his preferences, as we all do. I, for one, despise the land use plan for the West 117th/Target site. The Councilwoman Dona Brady also wanted Target built next to West 117th. Between that and the Home Depot up the street, closer to the Red Line station, the emphasis is on automobile access and not the pedestrian. If I were mayor of Cleveland, I would have asked Home Depot to relocate to the Target site next to I-90 and then asked Target to take the Home Depot property and bulldoze it. In its place, I'd put Target next to West 117th at the northeast corner of the property, closest to the Rapid station and mix in some more retail and possibly some housing above. The Bob Stark-owned Staples Plaza across the street is also in need of replacement with a more pedestrian-oriented setting. Those features would more closely resemble Cudell Improvement Corp.'s land use plan for the area. See http://www.cleveland.oh.us/cudell/happening.htm I'm not being nasty....I'm asking a question. Now reading your answer, KJP, I'm confused. cle2032 is your anwer in response to SYC or W 117??
January 14, 200718 yr ok...this was an emotional thread. I dont see the problem with this except some of the store could have been put in downtown (this thread ties into the "wht would you like downtown/24 hour thread). It is not perfect, but hey, it is what it is. It's like Severance, when it transformed from a traditional mall to its current state, people were sad. Severance is doing fine. I think the people nearby will take full advantage of this, and as more people populate the neighborhood, smaller unique business will have to see what is missing and fill in the blank or if its a business that also has a counter part in SYC that neigbhorhood business will most likely fill a customer service special need. smaller neighborhood business will survive because they are apart of the neighborhood. No transportation expert but to give an example, could they have taken the blue line and built/extended a route to SYC from TC. Thhis would leave the green line trains available for the WFL, if needed they could always run a train from TC to Muny lot.
January 14, 200718 yr A rail connection from TC to the SYC stripmall would cost like, 2 billion dollars. Why not just leave the land as it was and concentrate on filling the voids in our central core with these retailers (maybe not Home depot). I don't there is going to be any swaying of opinions for this project, one camp thinks it's a good idea in the right location, and the other is correct.
January 14, 200718 yr A rail connection from TC to the SYC stripmall would cost like, 2 billion dollars. Where did you get that number? Please tell me your over exaggerating!
January 15, 200718 yr $2 billion? Please think more carefully before you throw around numbers like that. First, consider that the gold-plated Waterfront Line cost $35 million per mile (including the large Settlers Landing park). First of all, you wouldn't want to build a light-rail line just to a low-density development like SYC. If light-rail is to serve SYC, it should be an enroute stop on a longer, overall transit corridor. A likely possibility would be the Cleveland - Parma corridor discussed at: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=8513.0 But, let's consider the portion from Tower City to SYC first. A light-rail line could be split off the Red Line near West 25th, head south on West 25th as a streetcar, and then go around the east side of the MetroHealth Medical Center. Serve SYC via an enclosed walkway over I-71 with an elevator/stairwell dropped down to SYC. Via this alignment, the distance from the Ohio City Red Line station to a MetroHealth/Steelyard station could be about 1.75 miles. Using the Waterfront Line as a guide, the construction cost could be about $60 million for this 1.75-mile segment. That's a bit less than $2 billion. The capital cost of extending the Cuyahoga Valley Scenic RR north from Independence to downtown, via SYC, will also be significantly cheaper than $2 billion. Maybe it will be $25 million. Perhaps $50 million. The engineering isn't done yet. But it won't be $2 billion. Please use more care next time. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 15, 200718 yr Sigh... There is no need to warn me about using more care, it's called sarcasm. Obviously it wouldn't cost 2 billion. I didn't expect the County auditors to be checking my math so intently.
January 15, 200718 yr Yes, but your sarcasm fuels the fire of anti-transit folks. We wouldn't want you to be quoted by someone with ill intentions!
January 15, 200718 yr You should use one of them smiley thingamabobs. May I recommend: :wink:, or perhaps :roll:, or even :evil:. I always like :drunk:, though I'm not sure that he would be applicable. Of course, there's always :ass:, which is just my favorite, though he is far to sincere in his sentiments to imply sarcasm.
January 15, 200718 yr I've always thought you were too well informed to suggest a short transit link like that would cost $2 billion. But I've been disappointed before (thankfully I toned down my original message or I'd be feeling worse). So, yes, please use an emoticon for a sarcastic statement since tone of voice doesn't come through in text. But, my reply to your message got me thinking... How about these routing options? (scroll right to see whole thing): "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 15, 200718 yr Not a fan of the "emoticons" (autobots and decepticons?) for some reason. I thought the "like, 2 billion..." was enough. Live and learn. :mrgreen: That was tough.
January 15, 200718 yr Before anything else, THIS IS REGARDING W.117th! I know this is the SYC thread but since the W. 117th development was mentioned I wanted to add my thoughts--not going too far off subject. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Well being the real estate/planning expert that I am... Wait, I don't think I've ever said that. Isn't this forum a place for all of us to voice our opinions, concerns, and ideas? Expert? Hardly, but it's very discouraging to see such a typical approach to such a 'prime' location. It doesn't take an 'expert' to realize that a vibrant urban center in the TRUE sense of the word means density, pedestrian/public trans-friendly, NOT Strongsville. I shouldn't be that harsh on S'ville and I use it because it's an easy example. But, what works there cannot work in Cleveland. If it takes an expert to decide that, then God help us all. I wasn't trying to suggest something so radical that the Dutch would be commending us-although I wish we would...but suggesting a simple gesture of rotating a piece of paper 90 or 180 degress. And believe it or not-whether it's a site plan or a painting, that simple gesture can make a big difference for the BETTER.
January 23, 200718 yr EPA satisfied with Steelyard Commons cleanup Thousands of tons of contaminated soil and slag have been removed from Steelyard Commons and the Ohio Environmental Protection Agency has declared the 22-acre area clean. A WalMart store will go in there, replacing the closed LTV and ISG steel-finishing plants near downtown and Interstate 90. The developer also removed an underground storage tank. --Donna J. Miller, [email protected]
January 23, 200718 yr thx musky for the post i was wondering about that. so what did they do with all the contaminated dirt? is it piled up next to syc? yikes -- it's not in the dike is it?
January 23, 200718 yr I noticed a couple of things this week at the site: about a 1/4 of the Sprawlmart framing is already up and in the parking lot there are a number of mini-towers (similar to the large towers they put up with the name on it) throughout the site. They look like little oil rigs.
January 26, 200718 yr http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/news/1169804871140120.xml&coll=2 Friday, January 26, 2007 ,cr CLEVELAND Steelyard Drive opens Steelyard Drive, the new road through the Steelyard Commons shopping center, opened to the public Thursday. The five-lane boulevard connects Quigley Road to the north and Jennings Road to the south. The new section of Quigley, which connects the center with the roundabout at West 14th Street, also opened Thursday. Home Depot, Steelyard's first store, is scheduled to open Feb. 1. Target should open March 11.
January 31, 200718 yr I drove through this morning and took many pics. I'll post them tonight. ^Liar Upcoming ULI event: Thursday, February 8th 2007 The Vision – The Challenges – the Development: Steelyard Commons “ON-SITE” “Best Buy” in Steelyard Commons Best Buy is directly opposite Target Our Speakers are: Mitchell C. Schneider, President First Interstate Properties, Ltd. Todd S. Davis, Chief Executive Officer Hemisphere Development LLC Brooke Furio, City of Cleveland Land Revitalization Manager & USEPA Region 5, Cleveland Office, Brownfield & NPL Reuse Section Annette Stevenson, Partner, Ariel Ventures, LLC 3:30 PM Registration 4:00 PM to 5:45 PM Program Reception will immediately follow the program. Fee includes reception hors d’oeuvres, beer and wine. ULI Members: $45 ULI Member s - Student, YLG & Public: $35 Non-Members add $15 to your category. For website registration information: Go to the “calendar” link at cleveland.uli.org
January 31, 200718 yr The Vision – The Challenges – the Development: Steelyard Commons If they're going to be discussing Vision and Challenges, I'm guessing this isn't so much architecturally-oriented.
January 31, 200718 yr Why would they discuss architecture? It's obvious it was never even a consideration. One of my many beefs with this development.
January 31, 200718 yr Home deopot sign/roof entrance eludes to an electric furnace, but that seems to be just from what I have seen so far.
February 1, 200718 yr Quote from: musky on January 26, 2007, 10:19:07 I drove through this morning and took many pics. I'll post them tonight. ^Liar Here you go.
February 1, 200718 yr How Steelyard Commons got to its Thursday opening By Henry J. Gomez Plain Dealer Reporter For more than two years, the anticipation about Steelyard Commons has centered largely on Wal-Mart. The big-box retailer’s plans to build its first Cleveland store on a former LTV Steel site sent city officials, labor leaders and bargain-hunters into a gossiping frenzy. But Thursday, when Home Depot opens the first store at the sprawling shopping center, Steelyard Commons will be more than a controversy about a concept. The huge project becomes a test of an urban market’s retail needs, as well as a measure of a successful local real estate player’s touch in a setting unlike any he has ever developed. Read More...
February 1, 200718 yr what is it with ihops obsession with outlots? It must be in the company's master plan, outlots only! well at least coldayman will be happy.
February 1, 200718 yr ^^That's actually a pretty cool-looking Home Depot building. Not bad for a Home Depot. I do like the Target sign.
February 1, 200718 yr Last nite i had gone to Home Depot's opening, I think this might be Home Depot's best store in NEO. Its very bright inside and lots of displays. best of all (they painted little less orange inside.)
February 1, 200718 yr ^Isn't that the Best Buy in Mayfield? Or maybe I have it confused with the Best Buy in Fairfax, Virginia. Congratulations, Cleveland, on creating a spectacular Nowhere.
February 1, 200718 yr Whatever the phase or store, that color scheme just makes me wanna buy electronics!
February 1, 200718 yr Best Buy opens in May Here is a rendering of the front of their building. Can we ski on that thing? I love mixed-use developments.
February 1, 200718 yr ski, Wim? Wow, you're really on today! I bought a Starbucks this morning. I usually don't hit that place up until early afternoon.
February 1, 200718 yr ski, Wim? Wow, you're really on today! I bought a Starbucks this morning. I usually don't hit that place up until early afternoon. you sound like my friends senile grandmother, "you boys want a subway?" (asking us if we would like a sub from subway.)
Create an account or sign in to comment