KJP, you point is well made.  I don't blame the developers so much--Schneider only built what the City legally allows.  But how hard is it for City Council to visit Chicago, or an East Coast city, and start fixing the flawing zoning regs that have produced this suburbanized mess?  A big box here, a drive-through there, a strip mall here, and before you know it, the vast majority of Cleveland's urban fabric is gone forever.  You have to draw a line somewhere.

 

Dan, straight out copying the east coast or chicago isn't original, although I we all understand what you are saying and as  KJP states, its not going to happen overnight.  It didn't happen in DC overnight it took 15 years and lots of federal subsidies but the metro rail, helped that alot. 

 

If I'm not mistaken, Campbell's administration put new zoning legislation into place that prevents front end parking (or puts a limit on that amount) and how buildings are built/redeveloped.  This should be noticeable along Euclid & the ECP and in most new Cleveland proper development.

^I'm not suggesting copy other cities, which has already been done too often.  I *am* advocating traditional urban design--the kind that existed in Cleveland prior to World War II, when the city had a population double what it is today.  I just fear that the cultural memory will be completely lost sooner rather than later, precluding the slow and steady "reconstruction" described by KJP. 

 

 

 

KJP, you point is well made.  I don't blame the developers so much--Schneider only built what the City legally allows.  But how hard is it for City Council to visit Chicago, or an East Coast city, and start fixing the flawing zoning regs that have produced this suburbanized mess?  A big box here, a drive-through there, a strip mall here, and before you know it, the vast majority of Cleveland's urban fabric is gone forever.  You have to draw a line somewhere.

 

The city is definitely looking into changing some zoning. I know that Euclid's zoning was changed last year. Right now, they are working on Detroit Ave and Lorain Ave.  The goal is to maintain the storefront style.

Of course us urban purists would love to see "good urban design" and only that in all new developments in the city. Let's be realistic, good design is certainly important, but it's going to take a whole lot more than that to reverse the outmigration trend of the last 5 decades.

 

I am no fan of big box shopping centers and I haven't set foot in a mall of any sort for at least 5 years now, maybe longer. When I hear downtown workers (suburbanites or exurbanites who probably have never spent any meaningful retail dollars in Cleveland proper) talking over their cubicle walls about the easiest way to get to SYC, I say the good of this development outweighs the bad.

 

You can change the policies, the zoning that has hurt our cities. How do you change the perception to get people to look inward again? I would argue that development on the scale of SYC, on a highly visable brownfield site, will help change perception more than a well designed effort in downtown proper, at this point in time anyway.

^yeah, as previously bemoaned, we tried "well designed" in Tower City, it didn't work.

^yeah, as previously bemoaned, we tried "well designed" in Tower City, it didn't work.

 

However, if TC was built today with the roster of tenants it had when originally opened, would it be successful considering there is a much larger downtown population.

 

We can only speculated, but I think yes.

I can't believe we're spending so much time debating the merits of Steelyard while a far more egregious big box project on W. 117th Street near I-90 has garnered little attention. There, some 100 homes in a relatively stable neighborhood were razed -- and dozens of families displaced, buy-outs or not -- to make way for a prairie of parking, a Target and a Giant Eagle. At Steelyard, by comparison, we lost an abandoned steel mill.

 

The new Giant Eagle at 117th will be relocating from an existing, far more pedestrian-friendly location on Clifton Boulevard that will now be vacant. The developer, Rysar, has -- unlike First Interstate -- made no gestures at social responsibility. I don't have love for Steelyard, but the Rysar project is to me much more of an outrage.

"The Giant Eagle will be relocating from an existing, far more pedestrian-friendly location on Clifton Boulevard that will now be vacant."

 

I believe that plan fell through - not that it makes the West 117th project any less atrocious.

^yeah, as previously bemoaned, we tried "well designed" in Tower City, it didn't work.

 

However, if TC was built today with the roster of tenants it had when originally opened, would it be successful considering there is a much larger downtown population.

 

We can only speculated, but I think yes.

 

i would speculate no given the duplication of retailers at both Legacy/Beachwood & Cracker Park (really we can choose not to split hairs on this subject by going over every "new original" tenant  in tower city and whether they exist elsewhere nowadays......though market conditions have changed positively, blah blah blah, make nice, back on subject, blah blah blah)

"The Giant Eagle will be relocating from an existing, far more pedestrian-friendly location on Clifton Boulevard that will now be vacant."

 

I believe that plan fell through - not that it makes the West 117th project any less atrocious.

 

I will seriously have a temper tantrum if they move my Giant Eagle all the way up there. I can walk to the Clifton location to get beer, candy, mac 'n' cheese and other single-guy crap anytime I want - no car needed!

 

I would argue the customer base at the Clifton location is totally different than the 117/I-90 spot near Home Despot.

^I don't know that I would consider Tower City as "good urban design".  It is, after all, the same suburban shopping mall concept, except with a rapid transit station in the basement.  There are distinct differences between architecture and interior design and civic design, and each is important in its own regard. 

 

The W117th project has its own thread. 

^And it's a fraction of the size of this one. That was my whole point.

^^same suburban shopping mall concept? What about the two attached hotels and thousands of office workers that don't even have to go outside to shop there.

 

I'm guessing that the office workers in TC/Landmark complex will spend more money at SYC on their drive home than they ever spent at Higbee's/Dilliards or the Gap, etc. I'm not saying I like it, it's just reality.

I'm guessing that the office workers in TC/Landmark complex will spend more money at SYC on their drive home than they ever spent at Higbee's/Dilliards or the Gap, etc. I'm not saying I like it, it's just reality.

 

Well, it's not reality if it's not actually happening.  How would you propose to validate this claim to eliminate the "guessing"?  I would be interested to see the results, and I'm sure the Starks and Wolsteins of the world would be interested as well.

 

I think the problem I have with direct comparison between Stealyard and Tower City is that we're trying to take two locations, changing multiple variables (location, access, retail mix, demographics, among others) and then making a direct comparison.  How do you control for more than one variable at a time when the sample size is 2?  You can't. 

I'm thinking of the more general "reality" that the majority of people in the US prefer (or at least are conditioned) to shop at auto-centric, open air shopping centers these days. As for SYC in particular, I'm sure there was much less guessing and much more hard market and demographic stats that convinced all the big boxes to sign on.

 

Slightly OT, but if Stark or Wolstein peg their projects' success on "destination retail" I would predict the same fate for them as Tower City. That being said, I think (and hope) they know better.

I'm thinking of the more general "reality" that the majority of people in the US prefer (or at least are conditioned) to shop at auto-centric, open air shopping centers these days.

 

The "preference" is due to the fact that auto-centric, open air shopping centers are the only thing that is built in most of the nation.  You're not going to convince me that someone would prefer the environment of a big box shopping center to say, Georgetown, Michigan Avenue, or the Back Bay. 

 

 

 

 

 

I think the problem I have with direct comparison between Stealyard and Tower City is that we're trying to take two locations, changing multiple variables (location, access, retail mix, demographics, among others) and then making a direct comparison.  How do you control for more than one variable at a time when the sample size is 2?  You can't.  

 

^ well i am glad to hear you say that because that is the same logic problem i have with you when say stuff like syc sucks and therefore cleveland is going to hell, yada. too many variables, the two things do not go together.

 

its a big city, there can be progressive stuff going on like changing zoning laws on detroit and dummer stuff like syc too, its ok.

 

seriously tho, on the topic of bix box shopping blinky is right the w117th actions should be far more concerning to us urban-minded folks than what happens on an empty old polluted steel plant property. the thought of tearing all that down for a big box makes me cringe.

 

I'm thinking of the more general "reality" that the majority of people in the US prefer (or at least are conditioned) to shop at auto-centric, open air shopping centers these days.

 

The "preference" is due to the fact that auto-centric, open air shopping centers are the only thing that is built in most of the nation.  You're not going to convince me that someone would prefer the environment of a big box shopping center to say, Georgetown, Michigan Avenue, or the Back Bay. 

 

When I lived in Port Huron, a guy wrote into the newspaper and said he would never shop in downtown Port Huron because he wanted to be able to drive and park his car at each store rather than leaving it and walking to each store.

 

A lot of people love downtown shopping, but to others it ain't that big of a deal. In my opinion, market forces created the suburban mall taste. It's a product people like.

^ but suburban shopping is a highly subsidized product.

 

i wish that more of these suburban developments were transparent with the costs associated with development (hwy interchanges, parking, water runoff, etc).  most of america is addicted and doesn't remember any other way than "free" parking and this ultimately hurts denser, pedestrian and transit friendly developments.  If developers passed on the true cost of this parking, then maybe downtown retail would have a better shot of success for non-downtown residents.  

 

as it stands now, tower city has to offer parking validation for just about everything - from a movie, lunch or $25 purchase. 

 

a store like target or walmart or home depot, or even the traditional department store retailers are not going to willingly locate in a hard or pay-to park area, except for a few exceptions along the coasts, chicago - especially if they end up having to comp parking to successfully compete in the market.

Dan, I believe this was directed at your "I don't know that I would consider Tower City as "good urban design". 

 

^^same suburban shopping mall concept? What about the two attached hotels and thousands of office workers that don't even have to go outside to shop there.

 

Would like to hear your reasoning here...

Thsi thread is something else...  I don't even know where to begin... again...

A big box here, a drive-through there, a strip mall here, and before you know it, the vast majority of Cleveland's urban fabric is gone forever.

 

I agree with your point but perhaps a better argument for suburbs. We are talking about an abandoned steel mill, not one of Cleveland’s neighborhoods. Yes, a missed opportunity to replace an abandoned section of the city with something truly urban.

 

With that being said, Clevelanders will still shop there instead of the suburbs weather it’s in an urban or suburban big box retail setting. Hardly a dooms day scenario for the future of Cleveland’s urban core.

what is "stark's project" that I've heard mentioned several times in this thread...

^Go here

 

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=2591.0

I've been to the new Home Depot a bunch of times, and I think it's much nicer than the suburban locations. 

 

For one, I like the human scale of the store.  It just feels smaller and more intimate.  Someone else mentioned that the lighting is better.  I'd probably agree with that.

 

I'm not sure I like the fact that security checks customers' puchases on the way out ala wholesale clubs.  Sends the signal that, since the store's in the city, the company needs to take extra precautions against theft.

 

Every time I've been in the store, there's been an interesting cross-section of Clevelanders.

I'm not sure I like the fact that security checks customers' puchases on the way out ala wholesale clubs.  Sends the signal that, since the store's in the city, the company needs to take extra precautions against theft.

 

Every time I've been in the store, there's been an interesting cross-section of Clevelanders.

 

I disagree, they have this at almost all Home Depot Stores, not just in Cleveland or urban areas but in the burbs as well.

the one missed opportunity was more skylights and an insulated roof.  it still amazes me that northeast ohio has not implemented some basic zoning/building codes.  OK, allow a big box, but at least require some basic things to reduce power consumption and reduce heating/cooling cost.

 

it looks like the walmart may have skylights, but these could also be cutins for the HVAC units, depending on how the ceilings are finished on the interior.

the Wal-marts I have been to have many skylights

"Sends the signal that, since the store's in the city, the company needs to take extra precautions against theft."

 

I'm not necessarily disagreeing, but ask anyone who has ever worked in Tower City about the problems with shrinkage/theft. Personally, I'd rather they have a beefed-up security presence which discourages the criminal element.

"Sends the signal that, since the store's in the city, the company needs to take extra precautions against theft."

 

I'm not necessarily disagreeing, but ask anyone who has ever worked in Tower City about the problems with shrinkage/theft. Personally, I'd rather they have a beefed-up security presence which discourages the criminal element.

 

I have a contact who is high up in PR at Wal-Mart and another reason for such security is, some contractors buy lots of goods.  Then later in the day or two, go back to the store, with receipt in hand, load up a cart then proceed to register and ask for a refund.  From what I understand, this type of behavior has been increasing over the last few years.

 

So for those of you who have been to SYC, what is the security of the grounds like?  Does the property have its own security team?  Once the ball gets rolling in a few months, I would think the security would need to be present for people walking to/from cars or store to store, as the area is secluded.

I was there once. I didn't notice any security.

I was there once. I didn't notice any security.

 

I wonder if that will be in the works as more tenants come online?

"Sends the signal that, since the store's in the city, the company needs to take extra precautions against theft."

 

I'm not necessarily disagreeing, but ask anyone who has ever worked in Tower City about the problems with shrinkage/theft. Personally, I'd rather they have a beefed-up security presence which discourages the criminal element.

 

I have a contact who is high up in PR at Wal-Mart and another reason for such security is, some contractors buy lots of goods.  Then later in the day or two, go back to the store, with receipt in hand, load up a cart then proceed to register and ask for a refund.  From what I understand, this type of behavior has been increasing over the last few years.

 

So for those of you who have been to SYC, what is the security of the grounds like?  Does the property have its own security team?  Once the ball gets rolling in a few months, I would think the security would need to be present for people walking to/from cars or store to store, as the area is secluded.

 

Yes, SYC has security. they drive around in a white ford label SYC security. its just like other malls.

"Sends the signal that, since the store's in the city, the company needs to take extra precautions against theft."

 

I'm not necessarily disagreeing, but ask anyone who has ever worked in Tower City about the problems with shrinkage/theft. Personally, I'd rather they have a beefed-up security presence which discourages the criminal element.

 

I don't think loss prevention is such a negative.  After all, you'd like the businesses to be profitable so they can remain open, right?

 

Hell, we have security guards in our grocery stores.  And that's in a neighborhood where the cheapest house is $400k.

"Sends the signal that, since the store's in the city, the company needs to take extra precautions against theft."

 

I'm not necessarily disagreeing, but ask anyone who has ever worked in Tower City about the problems with shrinkage/theft. Personally, I'd rather they have a beefed-up security presence which discourages the criminal element.

 

I have a contact who is high up in PR at Wal-Mart and another reason for such security is, some contractors buy lots of goods.  Then later in the day or two, go back to the store, with receipt in hand, load up a cart then proceed to register and ask for a refund.  From what I understand, this type of behavior has been increasing over the last few years.

 

So for those of you who have been to SYC, what is the security of the grounds like?  Does the property have its own security team?  Once the ball gets rolling in a few months, I would think the security would need to be present for people walking to/from cars or store to store, as the area is secluded.

 

Yes, SYC has security. they drive around in a white ford label SYC security. its just like other malls.

 

 

I always see them when I cut through.

Maybe its because there is only one store open and the rent-a-cops were bored, but when I was down there after the official street opening taking pictures, they were following me the whole time.

Rookies.

I would imagine you looked pretty shady, camera and all....

I would imagine you looked pretty shady, camera and all....

 

the signs on the trains that advertise to passengers to look out for "people performing surveillance" don't help.

Back in the day, I worked for Nordstrom in Maryland. We would get reports about theft and it blew my mind, how much price increases are tied in to theft, both employee and otherwise. That one year (I think it was 1980) Nordstrom had lost over 10 million dollars worth of merchandise due to theft alone. So as consumers, shrinkage is a concern. Why am I thinking about George Costanza on Seinfeld.....I can't remember :-)

Why am I thinking about George Costanza on Seinfeld.....I can't remember :-)

 

I was thinking the same thing. :)  But Elaine didn't understand!

She did eventually :-)

Why am I thinking about George Costanza on Seinfeld.....I can't remember :-)

 

I was thinking the same thing. :)  But Elaine didn't understand!

It wasn't Elaine.  It was a guest actress on the show.

 

Walks in ..."I'm sorry" ... Looks down ..."I'm real sorry"

 

Now when I think of shoplifting, I think of the "Uncle Leo" episode.  And Jerry's parents rationalizing why they steal AA batteries: "they wear out so quickly".

if i were mayday, i'd have a sweet photoshop job of SYC with, "Back on Topic Please"

 

 

but i'm not mayday.

I don't think I have ever been in a Home Depot or Best Buy/Circuit City (urban or suburban) without the half assed look in the bag/highlighter tick on the receipt by the security gaurd at the door routine. 

Wal*Mart answered my thank you note.  I had thanked them for making the Towpath possible for the financially hurting city of Cleveland:

 

Thank you for your message.

 

Thank you for your recent correspondence.  As you know, Sam Walton

built Wal-Mart on a very simple belief -- the customer is the boss.  This

means we are always striving to serve the people who shop at Wal-Mart

the best way possible.  Each compliment we receive is very important to

us and gives us the opportunity to continue offering our customers the

level of service they have come to expect.  It is customers like you who

help us continue to offer everyday low prices and friendly service.

 

Thank you again,

Wal-Mart Customer Relations

^ Whoa, now!  Wal-Mart didn't give up its tax abatement.

 

Details are on the way.  :wink:

I don't think I have ever been in a Home Depot or Best Buy/Circuit City (urban or suburban) without the half assed look in the bag/highlighter tick on the receipt by the security gaurd at the door routine. 

 

My issue is that almost all Home Depots in Northeast Ohio don't look in customer's bags.  At first, I thought that it was because the company hadn't hired loss prevention employees to monitor store cameras.

 

The only places I see receipts reviewed are wholesale clubs.  I can't think of others.

 

What I hate about Steelyards is that the lights take forever to change.  I couldn't tell you how many times I've hung a left through a red light because it takes a century to change.

 

Tax break may not apply to Steelyard

Thursday, March 08, 2007

By Ken Prendergast

West Side Sun News

 

According to several state officials, properties and structures at Steelyard Commons may not be eligible for state-authorized property tax breaks, after all. But the retail complex's developer Mitchell Schneider said the question ultimately is irrelevant if all property owners opt out of the tax exemptions.

 

City officials said they are taking another look at state laws to see if the retailers are eligible for the tax breaks.

 

Schneider's First Interstate Properties and Wal-Mart announced in February they are opting out of a state-authorized 10-year tax break that they would otherwise receive automatically. Two other big-box retailers Target and Home Depot apparently haven't decided whether to opt out of the tax exemption.

 

The exemptions would mean a significant loss of property tax revenues to the Cleveland schools and hurt city improvements to neighborhood commercial districts.

 

Steelyard Commons, built on the site of a polluted steel mill, was cleaned up using funds from the Ohio Environmental Protection Agency's Voluntary Action Program. Dubbed the "Brownfield" program, the complicated program contains incentives to redevelop polluted, including a covenant not to sue if more pollutants are discovered in the future and two provisions for property tax breaks.

 

"The property owner is entitled to a (property tax) exemption for the increase in the value of the land and the structures on the land," said Marty Cooper, staff attorney at the Ohio EPA VAP legal office. "The exemption only applies to the land and the existing buildings on the property, not to new buildings on the property. There are exceptions that apply to new buildings."

 

That's where the other, more lucrative tax exemption would apply. It applies to the increased value over 10 years resulting from property improvements made as of Jan. 1, 2006, said Shelley Wilson, executive administrator for property taxes at the Ohio Department of Taxation.

 

"It includes property on the site as of Jan. 1, 2006 that's the reference point," Wilson said. "Over the course of the next 10 tax years, whatever (property value) appreciation exists, that's what gets abated."

 

"A property owner is not supposed to get an exemption on anything he adds," said Gary Gudmundson, communications director at the department of taxation. "It's based on what he adds to what is already there. If there weren't any buildings there on Jan. 1, 2006, it sounds to me like they aren't eligible."

 

Schneider said his attorney informed him that the tax break is awarded on the property improvements and structures added once a covenant not to sue is issued by the state, and the state tax commissioner makes a ruling on what property can be exempted from the tax. But it was his understanding that the improvements made after Jan. 1, 2006 were eligible.

 

"I think the developer (Schneider)would have been eligible for the exemption because he bought the land, remediated the environmental concerns and put in streets (by Jan. 1, 2006)," said Ward 16 Councilman Kevin Kelley and a practicing attorney. "He rightfully chose not to take that (exemption)."

 

"The bottom line here is to have everyone waive the exemption," Schneider said. "Whether the improvements are made before or after Jan. 1 (2006) is irrelevant. We feel confident we're gong to bring this to a conclusion with waivers from all those involved."

In other news, Target is scheduled to open this Sunday.

I'm seriously very excited to hear that.. I guess I need to get out more.

I just went downt to the corner to buy beef jerky (I quit smoking so don't ask) - and two people at the convenient store were talking about Target. They were excited too lol