Thanks for the photo update Musky!  Sadly, I don't think this one's going to give me any chills once the cranes are at work...

I know it's not anyone's favorite project underway, but an update from this weekend (also, they're putting the "round-about" in at West 14th):

 

it's so...beautiful...

Damn, all that and then some was a steel mill at one time.  I wish I could have seen this city at full tilt.

You probably wouldn't have seen too much, because of the smoke and the smog from the factories in the valley!

Damn, all that and then some was a steel mill at one time.  I wish I could have seen this city at full tilt.

 

I did, near the end. It was pretty awesome in the 70s, just before the steel industry began its downfall. My father drove us across the Clark Avenue bridge -- and you were surrounded by steel mills, smoke, steam and flame. But you could see a lot. Same deal in Youngstown, where the mills were all lined up from Warren to Struthers. Crossing the Center Street bridge in Y-town was pretty humbling as to the awesome power of American industry. Not anymore.

no, if anything, the site down there is looking more like it did originally.  I've seen pictures of the site as Otis Steel, the original mill on that particular site, was being built.  There were just some farms down there, and then a mill was plopped on the site.  I do feel bad that times have changed and that the industry is but a small piece of what it once was, but that's technological process; less workers are making more product, and better product.  Newer mills are built in better locations, either strategically better (better sited for transportation of raw materials and finished goods), or economically better (in more labor-friendly areas, or states with better economic incentives, etc.).  And no one's building new integrated steel mills anymore, just minimills.  While few have a fondness for the industry, I'm from a steel family, and have always admired the mills and the folks who work in them, but I'm also enough of a historian to know that change is inevitable; the big mills like Otis and US Steel, and others actually replaced smaller iron and steel mills (such as the famed Cleveland Rolling Mills, which were once in Cleveland's Slavic Village), and now the cycle is continuing.  Yes, it's sad to see something that impressive being torn down, and wishing that it wasn't, but don't forget, that something impressive replaced something else ... and someday down the road, Steelyard Commons will be bulldozed for something else ... and that cycle will continue.  Nothing will ever replace the awe and majestic might that a steel mill can convey, but if you want to see something like that nowadays, head to Brazil, Eastern Europe, or China.  We've become a nation of workers who sit in cubicles inside air-conditioned office buildings, generating and reading reports and doing things that we can't even explain to anyone when they ask us what we do for a living.  It's progress ... isn't it?

 

Yes, it's sad to see something that impressive being torn down, and wishing that it wasn't, but don't forget, that something impressive replaced something else ... and someday down the road, Steelyard Commons will be bulldozed for something else ... and that cycle will continue.

 

I had to highlight this quote, because the theme has been persistent through this thread.  If so many people agree that Steelyard Commons will (hopefully) be bulldozed for something better in the future, then WHY NOT JUST BUILD SOMETHING "BETTER" IN THE FIRST PLACE?

 

Nothing like designing for low expectations and obsolescence.  It's the Cleveland Way!

hmm a lot of people on this board are against it, including myself, but i know people who live and work in cleveland who are stoked about getting some big name retailers in the city.  Bulldozing the past for something pre-fab and new is the *American* Way. 

 

I think the "Cleveland Way" is assuming negative stuff that happens in most other cities is only a Cleveland thing and therefore a move to the coasts for only those reasons is completely justified.  but id say even that is a common thing in other places as well.

Bulldozing the past for something pre-fab and new is the *American* Way. 

 

That explains why Cleveland keeps winning that "All-America City" designation.  I guess the idea of "Cleveland" will be something to regale the grandkids about one day, because by then, it'll look just like any other suburban piece of crap. 

 

I think it's incredibly sad to slap together CMU and EIFS bullshit just to build "something", let alone get excited about it.  Let's see how far this "progress" gets Cleveland when Steelyard Commons is vacant in ten years.

 

 

... Or building because "it's better than nothing."

Here is another perspective on Wal-Mart that is often overlooked.  It came from Slate

 

Barbara,

 

Although we've never met, I'm tempted to call you "Barb," the name you were given in your weeks as a Wal-Mart employee. I myself have never worked at Wal-Mart, and I can only remember shopping there once. In fact, I instinctively recoil at the big-box shopping centers spreading their uniformity across the American landscape. But I try hard not to let my personal and somewhat elitist shopping inclinations get in the way of an appraisal of Wal-Mart's positive role in America's economy and society. (For my full appraisal, see this paper I did for a panel at the Center for American Progress.)

 

Wal-MartAre you as surprised as I am by how quickly Wal-Mart's critics move past the issue of low prices? You will hear comments like, "Yes, Wal-Mart may have somewhat low prices, but let's talk about its impact on workers, the environment, trade with China, etc." But given just how important these low prices are to the hundreds of millions of Americans that shop there, I hope I can beg your indulgence to linger on them for a few moments.

 

 

 

A range of studies has found that Wal-Mart's prices are 8 percent to 39 percent below the prices of its competitors. The single most careful economic study, co-authored by the well-respected MIT economist Jerry Hausman, found that grocery sales by Wal-Mart and other big-box stores made consumers better off to the tune of 25 percent of food consumption. That doesn't mean much for those of us in the top fifth of the income distribution—we spend only about 3.5 percent of our income on food at home and, at least in my case, most of that shopping is done at high-priced supermarkets like Whole Foods. But that's a huge savings for households in the bottom quintile, which, on average, spend 26 percent of their income on food. In fact, it is equivalent to a 6.5 percent boost in household income—unless the family lives in New York City or one of the other places that have successfully kept Wal-Mart and its ilk away.Where do these low prices come from? Paul Krugman, writing back in 1993, provides an answer: "The most significant American business success story of the late 20th century may well be Wal-Mart, which has applied extensive computerization and a home-grown version of Japan's 'just in time' inventory methods to revolutionize retailing." Many economists didn't expect the service sector to contribute much to productivity. Many non-economists still have a hard time believing it has. But Harvard economist Ken Rogoff has the numbers, and they are mind boggling:

 

[T]ogether with a few sister "big box" stores (Target, Best Buy, and Home Depot), Wal-Mart accounts for roughly 50% of America's much vaunted productivity growth edge over Europe during the last decade. Fifty percent! Similar advances in wholesaling supply chains account for another 25%! The notion that Americans have gotten better at everything while other rich countries have stood still is thus wildly misleading. The US productivity miracle and the emergence of Wal-Mart-style retailing are virtually synonymous.

 

OK, enough indulging. Maybe you're ready to grant my point that Wal-Mart's low prices are great for the 298 million Americans who don't work there. But what about the 1.3 million Americans who do work for Wal-Mart? Here the evidence is murkier, in part because Wal-Mart refuses to release the data on its wages and benefits that could clear up a number of questions. What we do know is that its wages and benefits are about average for the retail sector—which is to say, not so great. It is harder to quantify other aspects of the job, like the quality of the work, the number of breaks, the prospects for advancement. You should let me know how you think it compares.

 

Studies have reached conflicting conclusions about the impact of Wal-Mart on local labor markets, with some finding that it creates more jobs than it displaces and others finding that it reduces jobs and nominal wages. Personally, I don't put a huge amount of stock in any of these findings because I believe that Ben Bernanke and the Federal Reserve decide the total number of jobs nationwide. If anything, the greater competition and productivity growth associated with the growth of Wal-Mart may have played a role in allowing the Federal Reserve to tolerate the high level of job creation in the 1990s.

 

But I understand why progressives are so upset about low wages and inadequate benefits. I am also upset by the rise of inequality and the relatively slow economic progress that the bottom 80 percent of Americans have made over the last several decades. I just think Wal-Mart is the wrong place to put the blame or to expect the solution. But I'll postpone that discussion for another day.

 

Best,

Jason

 

 

Well, a lot of people have to shop at Wal Mart for low low prices, because they have to be able to afford the gas for their truck/SUV to get to Wal Mart in the first place.

 

 

^Or because they have to spread the little money they have to pay for other things like the electric bill, the mortgage, tuition. I think saying everyone that shops at and likes the Walmarts and Targets of the world, has to be a fat SUV driving American is an ignorant thought. Yeah the stores aren't the best, but not all shoppers there are gluttonous truck drivin' Americans that you can look down upon as some people seem to think.

^or because they work at wal-mart and make low-low wages, so they can only afford wal-marts low-low prices.

I find this discussion interesting. I myself don't often shop at Wal-Mart, although I won't lie and say I have never purchased anything there.

 

But, to play devil's advocate, if people in Cleveland are driving to the suburbs to get their big-box fix, wouldn't it be better if they spent their money in Cleveland? Isn't it an uphill and ultimately unwinnable battle to pit a sagging city like Cleveland against an incredibly potent national trend? What I'm thinking is, the longer you fight the products and services and shopping styles people want now, the more they move out to the dumpy suburbs where these stores and centers are waiting.

 

But I also think these are factors that a lot of people value when deciding where to live. I think Lakewood is a great, affordable community with a lot of great housing options. But the retail options suck, and I bet some people will mention that they are XX miles from a Wal-Mart or XX miles from some other store. I can't buy clothes or books in Lakewood, which for me accounts for probably 50% of my extra spendable income. In order to get the goods I want within my budget, I have to go to either Crocker Park or the Beachwood area, where they have a sweet TJ Maxx. I'd much rather hop on the Rapid and buy all my crap at Tower City or some imaginery shopping Mecca downtown, but it doesn't exist.

 

You're never ever ever ever ever going to convince people to not want to shop at Wal-Mart or Target. It's impossible. So, do you want to best-case scenario spend their money in the suburbs or worst-case move to the suburbs to be closer to the stores. That's just my opinion.

While I see the validity of your argument, I feel that the most important impact that SYC will have is that it will be a tax boon to the city: thousands of new jobs that will pay city income tax, increased real estate taxes, and a portion of the sales tax that currently goes to the suburbs.

 

While Walmart jobs are not the greatest thing around, they will be filled by Cleveland's large lower class that is in desperate need of employment.

Is might be me, but I find it easier to post photos on my blogs then here... or I'm just being lazy.

That being said - I have some updated shots of SYC.

Here is a good close-up of the relocated bridge.

 

 

The rest of the pictures can be found here:

http://dashboardcamera.blogspot.com/

While I see the validity of your argument, I feel that the most important impact that SYC will have is that it will be a tax boon to the city: thousands of new jobs that will pay city income tax, increased real estate taxes, and a portion of the sales tax that currently goes to the suburbs.

 

While Walmart jobs are not the greatest thing around, they will be filled by Cleveland's large lower class that is in desperate need of employment.

 

Wimwar, I see your point and I would say that you are right. I still think my argument has a little legitimacy, although it's probably the not among the most important factors. But in order for the city to start prospering again, it needs an influx of middle class folks, and a lot of middle class families in NEO probably don't want downtown lofts or a true urban living experience. What's wrong with creating a city that has something for everbody, even if it isn't in our tastes?

Nothing like designing for low expectations and obsolescence.  It's the Cleveland Way!

 

^and THAT is the Cleveland mentality.

 

^haha exactly, thats what i was trying to get at

Nothing like designing for low expectations and obsolescence.  It's the Cleveland Way!

 

^and THAT is the Cleveland mentality.

 

 

Exactly!!  There are too many people like Dan, in Cleveland that think nothing but negativity about everything going on here.

Having driven by the SYC site for years on my way to work downtown, I for one am excited about this project. I know allot of people on this forum have a fascination with all things that are rusted out and belching smoke and old, but I'm not one of them. I too can see beauty in industry, but not when its dilapidated and in a state of disrepair. Not when it chokes the life out of a downtown that begs for any new construction it can get. Cleveland has a habit of continuing the same mistakes its made for the last 150 years. My goal for the flats industrial valley over the next 20 years would be to return it to the state that it was for the 10k years prior to the last 150 years when it was scarred and polluted by a handful of people who didn't live anywhere near it. It will be great to drive by SYC in the future and not have to close my windows and look the other way. Not that any shopping center is a work of art, but considering what was there-it will be a masterpiece.

Excitement over a Wal Mart only illustrates how far Cleveland has fallen.  You can throw labels on me and attack me personally all you want--the low expectations that Clevelanders have for their city will continue to drive "negative" people like me to places with real opportunity. 

 

 

Whatever Dan, you stay in DC

Excitement over a Wal Mart only illustrates how far Cleveland has fallen.  You can throw labels on me and attack me personally all you want--the low expectations that Clevelanders have for their city will continue to drive "negative" people like me to places with real opportunity. 

 

::shrug::

I can care less about Wal mart, I happy for a near by Target and Home depot. i am tried of driving 10-20 miles out. syc will save $$ on gas!

and gave local cleveland kids jobs

 

If SYC fails, cleveland will have clean land to work with.

I don't think anyone on this forum is "excited" about what Steelyard Commons will do for Cleveland. No one is touting this as some kind of fabulous or transformative project. However, given the location of it I think its okay. The site couldn't be used for much else besides this; a Walmart and a bunch of other big box stores. Housing, parks, hotels, offices in the middle of the industrial basin??? I don't think so. There is an element of creativity to the use of this site with Steelyard Commons. I would be freaking out and sharing your setiments if they wanted to put a development like this on more desirable land like along the lakefront, Scranton Peninsula or downtown surface parking lots.

 

I'd also be upset if this was in actuality the most exciting project we have developing in the city - but it's not. People in this town are doing great things with downtown, Euclid Corridor, and especially University Circle. To single out Steelyard commons and make statements like "everyone in this town has low expectations" and "nothing good is happening" is really unfair and a shortsighted excuse to continue negativity.   

Excitement over a Wal Mart only illustrates how far Cleveland has fallen.  You can throw labels on me and attack me personally all you want--the low expectations that Clevelanders have for their city will continue to drive "negative" people like me to places with real opportunity. 

 

 

I thought you are originally from Cleveland.  Therefore, this would be your city too. 

Negativity does have its place on this forum, but legitimacy is lost when one's remarks can only be found in the controversial threads and all the positives that are happening around town are ignored.

Excitement over a Wal Mart only illustrates how far Cleveland has fallen.  You can throw labels on me and attack me personally all you want--the low expectations that Clevelanders have for their city will continue to drive "negative" people like me to places with real opportunity. 

 

 

 

Dan I'm sorry but I have to call you out on this one.

 

When DC built the WAL-MART/HOME DEPOT center on Brentwood Rd. NE, it was all over the news - print and TV. You and and I have travelled similar paths but have very different views on what Cleveland should become. The last place I would want Cleveland to be is DC. DC has two types of people - the rich - Capitol Hill included in that...and the poor...NE and especially SE. DC has no middle class. In fact neither does Arlington or Alexandria...which explains why all three juristictions are losing population while this one of the fastest growing regions in the country. DC isn't NYC or Chicago where there are several classes of people living apartment/condo/townhome style housing. These great mixed use facilites by Metro you tout as being the backbone of making DC a "great" city are the primary reason why people living in some cases are 50-mi + from the city center. Only rich people can afford to live near them so everyone else has to move further out in order to find affordable housing. And let's be honest the outer counties aren't buliding up...they're building out. That's why the DC public school system is a mess. All the rich people put their kids in private schools....and the middle class folks (like myself) have to go to suburban juristictions to get their kids a decent public education....forcing the poorest to bear the brunt of the underdeveloped DC system. How does this differ from Cleveland now?

 

I think building a Wal-Mart or a Home Depot brings jobs....rises the standard of living for people and creates a middle class in the city. It's a vibrant middle class that changes the face of a city. Why is it OK for say Starbucks or Urban Outfitters to move in paying shit-wages...while it's bad for Home Depot who will hire 100X more people than any one Starbucks? Because it's prettier?

 

I want too see as many citizens in Cleveland get a piece of the economic pie and not get left out like 3/5 of DC residents are even with all the high-end retail downtown.

 

I don't know if this picture will attach but if it does this gives you some of the idea of what's happening to our farmland in VA thanks to this "great mixed" use housing here in the DC area. It's called Brambleton...and there are 9 more projects of similar stature being built in the county. I wouldn't call it urban either.

Hopefully this will come out a little larger. 2000 acres went bye-bye for this.

 

Edited: No source for the attached image

My argument isn't based on class warfare.  My argument is based on something very simple:  that suburbia is heavily subsidized, and if Cleveland decides to fashion itself on suburbia, it will be unable to compete.  If Cleveland ends up looking like Macedonia or Strongsville, it will die an even faster death, simply because the financial playing field is so heavily tilted toward new suburbs, thanks to short-sighted federal and state policies. 

 

For the record, the Home Depot in DC is a P.O.S.  The manner in which that site was developed was a huge mistake and waste of limited resources.  Thankfully, denser, more urban development will be built on the adjacent Rhode Island Avenue Metro station parking lot.

 

Blaming high housing costs on density is a specious argument at best.  Loudoun County has much lower density, but much higher housing prices, than most parts of the District.  It's not my fault that most suburbanites find the city unaffordable because they "need" 2000 sf and three cars.  The truth is, DC doesn't have much of a middle class because it *never* had much of a middle class.  There was never any heavy industry here as in Chicago, Cleveland, or New York.  It has been, and continues to be, a mostly white collar town with a large service sector.  Creating denser neighborhoods in Cleveland would only cause real estate to increase in value by driving up demand by *gasp* actually creating attractive places to live, work, and shop.

 

And yeah, I'm pissed about SYC because it's a disingenous lowest-common-denominator piece of crap.  Cleveland deserves much better, but so many are ready to accept whatever crumbs may fall their way.  Once Cleveland starts doing things in a positive, pro-active manner, instead of always waiting on its heels and playing catch-up, I might be a little more positive on the place.

So Dan, what do you think of the many other projects that are discussed on this board?

Yet, Dan, the POS Home Depot as you put it was touted in the DC media the same way SYC is being touted today. And that Home Depot gave jobs to residents in neighborhood where none were to be found.

 

My argument is far from class warfare, it's on the premise that an undereducated person in Cleveland or DC or wherever is more likely to get a job a Home Depot than Nordstroms or Starbucks. But the Nordstroms does look prettier.

 

The Rhode Island mixed use development is not affordable to people in the neighborhood. It's great news for rich kids going to Catholic U. though. And I guess the homeless can just move further up NY Avenue.

 

And don't spin Loudoun County that way...you know as well as I do that a home in Ashburn and Leesburg are half of what housing costs for a townhome in Capitol Hill or NW or Arlington. The super-rich folks that buy housing say in Western Loundon only make up a very small fraction of the population growth of the county. And there are very few super-rich people moving to say....Frederick County or Stafford County or Prince William County. Farmland is being leveled because townhomes that went for $100,000 in DC 20 years ago are now going $1.1 million.

 

And as for the middle class argument...then why is almost ALL OF THE HOUSING in DC and inside the beltway built before 1970 looks middle class. It wasn't until the 1980's before we started seeing McMansions and these "mixed use" condos for the upper middle class and up. The architechure around here dosen't wash with that argument there has never been a middle class here.

 

People move to the burbs not for a car, but because there are no education options for people in the city. Affordable good private education is unavailable to those make less than $100/k. In Arlington and Alexandria it simply has to with the fact that while mixed use buildings pop-up all around metro stations...two or three-site homes are being razed for one McMansion away from those stations. It's washing itself out.

 

Like I said....Cleveland would be well advised not going the route of DC growth

 

 

Boy, things sure were busy on this thread today!

 

I see some merits to SYC, most of which have already been discussed here (providing some retail choices that aren't now available in the city, giving basic jobs to those having a basic education, etc.). I also like the fact that First Interstate will extend the Towpath Trail 1 mile northward and build a station on the extended Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad.

 

Now, here's why I don't like SYC -- it takes up way too much room, certainly more than it needs to. Here's where a denser retail complex would have been perfectly sited, combined with structured parking, some affordable housing, day care, live-work spaces, business incubators with a publicly accessible communications center, and maybe even a charter school, occupational/tech college and the like.

 

In essence, it would be a one-stop shopping area to move up the ladder of success. There, someone could move from public housing, to affordable housing, work at a store during the day, attend continuing education classes at night while the kids are in day care, and put those skills to work at the business incubator in starting the next small business in Cleveland. That's what I would have done with SYC.

 

Fortunately, First Interstate still could, what with those huge parking lots...

^^ I hear ya KJP

 

My only question would be where SYC is located in terms of having any livability down there. I know where the Jennings Fwy. merges with I-71. Isn't there alot of Mittal Steel stuff in that area? And if it's actually in the valley with the furnaces and the mills and not on a pleatau above it, I don't even know if you could get low income folks to move down there. Unless the steel mills shut down completely and are torn down, the valley is Cleveland's biggest detriment in terms of growth and a problem in getting housing around SYC. It's hard to believe that in the scope of 5 miles the valley can go from industrial wasteland to National Park. It would be nice to fix the valley and move the park borders north and keep some of the remnants of the mills as a museum.

So when are they going to plop a Costco on the Muny Parking Lot?

i agree that pollution and contamination is a huge problem at this site.  there was a thread started on realneo.us the other day that has a lot of interesting maps, pollution discharge information, and some rants.  it is a little out of control one-sided, but i believe the figures quoted are accurate.  I don't think you'll see much demand for housing here in the near future, especially with other abandoned land in cleveland proper. 

 

http://www.realneo.us/independence-of-the-day-may-the-people-of-neo-find-freedom-from-air-pollution

 

 

So when are they going to plop a Costco on the Muny Parking Lot?

 

as for a costco downtown:  bring it on with leed certified plantinum status and sustainable construction.  add a bit of mixed use, a few thousand housing units downtown.  there is demand.

 

when i can't buy any household goods downtown without getting into my car, i am dissatisfied.  i'd also welcome mom and pops to come back downtown and sell me what i need - clothes, towels, pots, pans, and other random products.  right now, the only store that seems to fit this is the dollar store in tower city.

So when are they going to plop a Costco on the Muny Parking Lot?

 

Dan, like what they did with the old Convention Center in DC? It's a gigantic SURFACE parking lot with fake grass. How about RFK...surface lots galore. I don't know where you get off thinking where you live is better. You need to look around the town for once not just Capitol Hill and NW, I know I do. Those construction cranes aren't stopping people from moving away from the "city".

Amrapin, It's true that living in the valley shared with steel mills may not sound attractive, but consider where the remaining steel mills are located -- east of SYC. So unless there's an east wind, the smoke and smell from them isn't going to be very strong at SYC. And east winds are pretty rare in Cleveland.

 

BTW, wouldn't it be pretty cool to have Target downtown?  :wink:

So when are they going to plop a Costco on the Muny Parking Lot?

My wife was raised in Silver Spring and BEthesda Maryland, therefore I have been there several times.  I really don't understand what you think is so special about the DC area.  By all means, it is not up there with Paris, London, NYC or Chicago at that.  Some areas a pretty nioce.  But to be honest with you, my wife never bragged once about being from that area or complained about living in Cleveland after being from that area.  It's OK there, the job market is nice, but the town is transient as hell.  That is one reason it was so easy for my wife to move here.  She remembers growing up and having 15 different neighbors over the course of 5 years.  Just a very strange and what I found unfreindly environment. 

How did this thread become about DC?  Let's stick to the topic, folks--everything else is just noise. 

 

If you have a personal attack, then send me a personal message.

How did this thread become about DC?  Let's stick to the topic, folks--everything else is just noise. 

 

If you have a personal attack, then send me a personal message.

 

Not a personal attack Dan, and I am sorry you took it that way. I'm just poiniting out that the area we live in is not great as you point out. That DC isn't about urban planning like say the city of Seattle is. I'll gladly stop talking about DC when you stop ripping Cleveland. In fact my first point was about SYC, until you made that smart ass question.

It became this way because you were attacking Cleveland so I figured that I would comment on DC. 

Amrapin, It's true that living in the valley shared with steel mills may not sound attractive, but consider where the remaining steel mills are located -- east of SYC. So unless there's an east wind, the smoke and smell from them isn't going to be very strong at SYC. And east winds are pretty rare in Cleveland.

 

BTW, wouldn't it be pretty cool to have Target downtown?  :wink:

 

My mom loves the Target in downtown Minneapolis. Of course she is from Parma. :) I have no problem with downtown retail done correctly. Hell even a strip mall Target downtown would look better than a surface lot, but I think we can do better downtown.

 

Point taken on SYC, although the view would be kinda brutal. And I did a stint on the near west side for a while...in a bit from Tremont and every once in a while it did kinda stink. Maybe we could stack a couple of windmills facing the valley and push the smell back in?

It became this way because you were attacking Cleveland so I figured that I would comment on DC. 

 

And what was that supposed to accomplish?  Detract from the point I made that Cleveland is taking a decidedly generic approach to this project?  Were you trying to make us all forget that Cleveland generally uses cookie-cutter approaches that have already failed in other cities? 

 

I'm not against "big box" retail, per se, but recreating Suburbia so close to downtown is the start of a very slippery slope that will eventually swallow the entire city, if left unfettered.  In fact, the SYC design is probably the worst possible thing you could do in that location, environmental concerns aside.  But, what do I know?  I live somewhere else....

 

I will say that Cleveland has always had a very introverted and stubborn view of itself.  It almost seems as if everyone in charge of things has never actually been to another city to see what works and what doesn't.  I don't believe in building things just to build *something* or *anything*, which comes from my experiences in professional practice.  There's a certain standard of quality that isn't being met here, and too many people here are willing to accept crumbs when they can get the whole pie.  With such a roll-over attitude, is it any wonder that people with money to invest don't take Cleveland very seriously? 

 

Maybe you guys are happy with half-assed.  I'm not.  I think Cleveland can (and should) do better.  But perhaps I'm just overly optimistic.  Understand, though, that the bright young people Cleveland needs aren't leaving town to go live in jive plastic McMansions and shop at Wal Mart.

 

   

But perhaps I'm just overly optimistic. 

 

Um, I don't think that anyone would accuse you of being "overly optimistic".

Ive been reading the Urban Ohio/Cleveland forum for a while now (religiously), but have not posted until now.  I grew up, and lived in and around Cleveland for most of my life and now live in DC, for about 6 years now.  I have seen DaninDC postings on every Cleveland subject, spewing negative Cleveland this and that.  It is living in DC that really made me appreciate what Cleveland is and has.  I have never particularly liked living in DC and haved longed to be back in Cleveland ever since I came here.  Aside from a good job market, I have seen DC as nothing more than a vile place, full of people that want to be/feel important at any cost, and have no common courtesy whatsoever.  The racial tensions and crime are out of control, and because it is a single personality city, seems to lack a creative class.  Although better than when I moved here, I have been appalled by the low standards in just about every aspect, because either nobody cares or lacks any real attachment/investment in what kind of city it is.  I have always had to come to Cleveland to find great (original) restaurants etc..., good service, fun times and interesting, friendly people.  I think DaninDC has gotten a little caught up in everything that I dislike about DC and maybe needs to keep the size of his head in check.  Im hoping to return to Cleveland to live in the near future, in order to "raise" my standard of living once again.  I think in order to really appreciate and like living in DC depends on whats really important to you, and what I have seen out of Dan tells me everything about him.  Dan, stay in DC, it is for you!  I plan to contribute to the site often in the future and will look forward to challenging Dan in the future. 

Will