The dynamics of D.C. and Cleveland are very different.  The site is not attractive for housing, and the urban fabric is much different in Cleveland.  Im sure everyone on here would have rather seen a nice TOD development incorporating housing and retail around an rta station.... but Cleveland just is not there yet.  The Columbia Heights development is not much different than that of University Heights talked about on another thread with lots of parking incorporated,  expect for the metro station.  I dont agree with the idea that people are not going to buy things at the local store any more than with the inner city D.C. development.  I dont think the city or many people were for the mega wallmart with groceries at SYC but it was sneaked in, but they also realized that the people shoping there are the same ones that would drive to shop in the suburbs.  The Cleveland city retail has already suffered its downward spiral because of the suburban shopping and city abandonment issues.  Retail in the city already needs to be something different in order to stay in business.  If SYC is so isolated then dont you think the people shopping there are going to be people that are going to drive to a suburban center anyway?           

I think what Dan is trying to get across is the fact that Cleveland will ultimately survive by being what it is; a dense walkable community that capitalizes on those facts.  Trying to copy what is going on in the suburbs (Steelyards Commons, so suburban, naming itself after something that was torn down to create it) is not something the city should be doing.  Isn't that fact why all of us live in the city to begin with.  I think everyone would be happier if Wal-Mart, Target, and whatever else is going into SYC, if it were created in the central core, dependant on mostly people who utilize public transportation instead of having the need of a giant sea of parking lots.  It comes back to the fact that we as a city should be demanding creative solutions from the city when it comes to things like this (urban big box stores are all over the country, so it isn't like it would even be that creative), instead of going by what is typically done and accepting a lesser product, which is what SYC is.

City Council paid for a study that aimed to measure the negative impact that Steelyard would have on local businesses. Except for Dave's, the study showed that local businesses would actually show a slight improvement.

 

Think of it this way--if you need to head to a drug store, you're not going to use the one in your neighborhood if you're going to be at SYC anyway.  Same as for other businesses like book stores and record shops.  Wimwar, you keep equating "neighborhood businesses" with speciality niche retailers.  It's the bread-and-butter places that are going to lose their asses. 

 

So yeah, you'll have your very own suburban parking paradise right outside downtown, but at what expense?

 

And let's not forget that for some city residents, the suburban shopping centers are still going to be closer to them than SYC.  This is going to help Cleveland as much as Tower City and the Galleria did.

 

Dan,

 

I'm not sure why you are putting all these words in my mouth?  Where did I say the things that you claim I said?

Man this particular debate always spins so out of control.  But I think it is a real one with two defensible positions: the "urban purists" vs. the "urban realists"/"service providers".

 

I know I regretably come out in the middle.  Dan, I will dislike SYC as much as you do because of its environmental impact, crap design and perpetuation of auto-dominated development.  If I move back to Cleveland I will be angry that this place will be my only option to buy any number of items in the city.

 

But I know its impact on neighborhood retail will be minimal because neighborhood retail in Cleveland is already moribund.  And this place really could be a cash cow for a cash-starved city and might even help stem the flight of middle class residents tired of schlepping to the 'burbs for everything.  More practically, if I were a city resident now, I'm not sure I'd be patient enough to wait the 10 years (fingers crossed) for there to be the critical mass of income plus transit-dependency necessary for transit-oriented "urban" development to be feasible in the eyes of those who pay to build this stuff.

My apolgies, wimwar.  I really meant "MayDay". 

 

StrapHanger, I understand what you're saying.  But if you want a Target in Cleveland, why can't you put it at say, near W25th and Lorain instead?  To me, that would seem to help the Ohio City neighborhood a great deal, and create foot traffic for other businesses.  Repeat with the rest of the stores, in other neighborhoods.  Instead, all sorts of retail is being overconcentrated at one out-of-the-way site.  Maybe it's not going to hurt any neighborhood retail (we could be so lucky), but it's certainly not *helping*, either.  In fact, the study referred to above concluded that SYC would have a negative impact on Dave's Supermarkets, which is actually an independent, homegrown retailer that has had much success and is very committed to the city and its neighborhoods.  What kind of signal does SYC send to other would-be independent retailers??? 

 

And w28th has my opinion pegged.  I guess it's my fault for mistakenly thinking that Cleveland was once one of the great cities of America, and could return to that someday.  But if you're happy competing with the Bedfords, Parmas, and Macedonias of the world, knock yourself out.

I know a shitty strip mall at W25th and Lorain that would look good in a landfill, and replaced by a 4 level Target...

"I'm generally very positive on Cleveland."

 

Not on this forum you aren't.

I don't have to like every hare-brained idea to be positive about Cleveland.  It's kind of like, "Support our president, or you hate America", isn't it???

What's wrong with being critical of a glorified strip mall?  Yes it will add tax revenue to the city, yes it will add jobs, but it certainly could have been better at a different location, and with a better design.  But asking a developer to consider anything other that the bottom line would be a Christmas miracle.

I know a shitty strip mall at W25th and Lorain that would look good in a landfill, and replaced by a 4 level Target...

 

Amen.

Yet you (Dan) said "SYC is just a bad joke in a place that has largely forgotten how to be a city".

Which to me with generalizing, sweeping comments like that would say that you think in terms of "if you dont support the President you hate America" 

My apolgies, wimwar.  I really meant "MayDay". 

 

StrapHanger, I understand what you're saying.  But if you want a Target in Cleveland, why can't you put it at say, near W25th and Lorain instead?  To me, that would seem to help the Ohio City neighborhood a great deal, and create foot traffic for other businesses.  Repeat with the rest of the stores, in other neighborhoods.  Instead, all sorts of retail is being overconcentrated at one out-of-the-way site.  Maybe it's not going to hurt any neighborhood retail (we could be so lucky), but it's certainly not *helping*, either.  In fact, the study referred to above concluded that SYC would have a negative impact on Dave's Supermarkets, which is actually an independent, homegrown retailer that has had much success and is very committed to the city and its neighborhoods.  What kind of signal does SYC send to other would-be independent retailers??? 

 

And w28th has my opinion pegged.  I guess it's my fault for mistakenly thinking that Cleveland was once one of the great cities of America, and could return to that someday.  But if you're happy competing with the Bedfords, Parmas, and Macedonias of the world, knock yourself out.

 

You're as bad as the PD!  We here are active and with our local politcians, just look at all the amazing work KJP has done;  Winmar and MisterGoodDay are young urban thinkers and the type of citizens Cleveland wants, needs, has to retain and attract. 

 

You're always making attempts to compare DC to Cleveland.  You have no idea (I suspect you're to young to know or experience) when DC was further down on the peg than Cleveland 10/15 years ago.  DC did not turn around overnight nor did it do it by itself.  FEDERAL dollars went into cleaning up DC.  If we could get that same amount of cash and the political backing at other tax payers expense, we wouldn't be having this discussion!

 

So cut Cleveland some slack.  Cleveland never had prostitutes or crack heads hanging out on city hall...in DC you could score in front of the Whitehouse.  Even today there are MANY areas of DC that mirror areas of Cleveland and the close in MD/VA are equivalent to the inner ring burbs and DC is sprawling like the I-271 corridor.

 

I too would have liked to see the stores at SYC replace vacant stores in  neighborhoods on the resurgence, but it is what it is.  ITS BEING BUILT.  Instead of saying it sucks...what are any of us doing to help with its future development and growth and use it as a catalyst to work with its adjacent communities.

 

Cleveland is on the verge of a realistic return, the city has a clean set of books and isn't operating in a deficit, and the changes downtown have investors interested, Ohio City, Tremont are stablizing, Detroit shoreway is looking good the lower east side is also seeing real interest.

 

NOW.....WHAT ARE YOU DOING FROM DC TO HELP CLEVELAND, other than bitching about whats wrong and not coming up with positive solutions?

StrapHanger, I understand what you're saying.  But if you want a Target in Cleveland, why can't you put it at say, near W25th and Lorain instead?  To me, that would seem to help the Ohio City neighborhood a great deal, and create foot traffic for other businesses.  Repeat with the rest of the stores, in other neighborhoods.  Instead, all sorts of retail is being overconcentrated at one out-of-the-way site.  Maybe it's not going to hurt any neighborhood retail (we could be so lucky), but it's certainly not *helping*, either.  In fact, the study referred to above concluded that SYC would have a negative impact on Dave's Supermarkets, which is actually an independent, homegrown retailer that has had much success and is very committed to the city and its neighborhoods.  What kind of signal does SYC send to other would-be independent retailers??? 

 

Dude, I agree completely.  If it were up to me or just about everyone here, I would put one on W25th in Ohio City.  Unfortunately, I have a front row seat at the conservative real estate lender show, and it's pretty clear that's not on the table now or in the immediate future.  Hence the unpleasant trade-off.

.

"What's wrong with being critical of a glorified strip mall? "

 

Nothing at all - and as a matter of fact, this forum welcomes said criticism. But adding caustic insults to that criticism that serve no purpose? I have a problem with that.

 

Dan - if you like ANYthing that's been developed in Cleveland, you have never mentioned it here. Here's an idea - visit this thread at skyscraperpage.com's forum, and point out three project that you might actually feel some sense that they're "decent". Can you do it? Just give it try: http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=97396

 

Dan - if you like ANYthing that's been developed in Cleveland, you have never mentioned it here.

 

Nope.  Not really a fan of much that's been built lately.  I like the Superior Viaduct apartments, though, and Jacobs Field is a good place to see a ballgame.  The Chicle Townhomes project is a good, albeit overdue, idea.  Other than that, much of what gets built in Cleveland these days is generic, predictable, and anti-urban. 

Dan - if you like ANYthing that's been developed in Cleveland, you have never mentioned it here.

 

Nope.  Not really a fan of much that's been built lately.  I like the Superior Viaduct apartments, though, and Jacobs Field is a good place to see a ballgame.  The Chicle Townhomes project is a good, albeit overdue, idea.  Other than that, much of what gets built in Cleveland these days is generic, predictable, and anti-urban. 

 

And this crap ISN'T COOKIE cutter or generic??  These are a few building i've PERSONALLY viewed.

www.allegrospaces.com

www.butterfieldhouse.com

www.potomacplacetower.com

 

The exception being

www.thewatergate.com

 

 

 

 

Spinning...out...of...control.

...and all I wanted to do was bitch a little about walmart and the two ikeas along the qew.  ffs. 

The fact of the matter is...SYC...will probably do more for Cleveland's poverty numbers than anything being built downtown. And that's a very good thing. DC's idea of eliminating poverty is not to create lower-end jobs...but to price the housing market out of reach for even middle class individuals. Poor individuals aren't getting richer in DC...they're moving to PG county.

 

It's the big red herring in the room that Dan and his Capitol Hill neighbors have always ignored. :)

sorry, I think you are being rather simplistic about this.  I claimed not one, but two destinations besides the ikea.  hence, what?  agree to disagree if you like.  but detroit has a lot of problems, why should it surprise me they have traffic issues surrounding a shopping center.  the shopping around north olmsted is a traffic nightmare, and every store is full.  moreover, if one store can bring that many people, why is that a problem.  my point is that steelyard will be lucky to get that kind of business with the lousy stores they are offering.  their is nothing so remarkable about what is being put in there.  so I will keep my disappointment.      

 

yes, ikea doesn't want cleveland.  but something better than walmart and target had to be out there.  why it couldn't be done in such an underserved market, is beyond me.

 

yes, people in euclid(and parma, and north olmsted, and everywhere) have preconceived, often racist, opinions about downtown cleveland.  someone who would drive 2 hours to avoid shopping in a city has problems.

 

Yet IKEA isn't located in Detroit, Cincy or Pittsburgh. Same with the two in DC and Balt....all in burbs. At least Wal-Mart and Target are building in the city limits. Why is IKEA so highly regarded...it's just more strip mall trash.

The SYC is an excellent move for the Cleveland proper.  Sure it is not the urban shopping center everyone wants to see but there are finally shopping options in Cleveland not to mention jobs and activity.  ( thats a damn great thing)  I hear all the negative things but residents of Slavic village, Ohio City, and surrounding areas deserve the convience of this shopping center. As far as big box stores Ikea is the  cheap furniture equivalent of Wal Mart ( No disrespect)  I bought my office furniture last year from IKea and iits fALLING apart. ikea IS WAY OVERARTTED

Nobody is arguing that the shopping options and jobs are a good thing (pulling into the parking lot and grabbing a rickity shopping cart can hardly be considered activity), it is just poorly done in some opinions.

Well what would be 'well done' for the 30 percent of the city living below the poverty line. It easy to rip on Wal-Mart or Home Depot from a political standpoint if you are making $50K+ a year. (And i'm not implying you are W. 28th, just that it's been done on this thread before) But if you've been unemployed...it's a job opening where there wasn't one before. Could it be prettier...yeah...but look at what is surrounding the strip mall. Who in the hell is gonna start new urbanism there. :)

 

Yet IKEA isn't located in Detroit, Cincy or Pittsburgh. Same with the two in DC and Balt....all in burbs. At least Wal-Mart and Target are building in the city limits. Why is IKEA so highly regarded...it's just more strip mall trash.

 

finally, someone got it.

No one is arguing against creating jobs!!!  Thanks for pulling the old "take whatever crumbs you can get" line of reasoning. 

 

Cleveland - Lowest Expectation Location in the Nation!

No one is arguing against creating jobs!!!  Thanks for pulling the old "take whatever crumbs you can get" line of reasoning. 

 

Cleveland - Lowest Expectation Location in the Nation!

 

Pot meet Kettle

No one is arguing against creating jobs!!!  Thanks for pulling the old "take whatever crumbs you can get" line of reasoning. 

 

Cleveland - Lowest Expectation Location in the Nation!

 

Better in some dirty industrial pit than a forest, I say.

No one is arguing against creating jobs!!!  Thanks for pulling the old "take whatever crumbs you can get" line of reasoning. 

 

Cleveland - Lowest Expectation Location in the Nation!

 

Brentwood Rd. NE, Dan. I'm not dancing with you on that again.

 

So you are saying we should take the DC mentality...kick the poor out to let the rich in? I think Cleveland can do better than that. Same with Detroit, Pittsburgh and Cincy.

Better in some dirty industrial pit than a forest, I say.

 

It was never a choice between a dirty industrial pit and a forest!  It's a choice between building urban, or building the same cheap, suburban crap you can find anywhere else.  Cleveland no longer looks like Cleveland, and is getting less so by the day.  But hey--there's cheap, plentiful parking! 

 

Hell, while we're exploring the irony of bulldozing a steel mill for plastic cartoon buildings where people earn poverty wages, let's demolish the BP Building and put an Amoco station there.   

 

And MTS, *I* have low expectations?  You guys are the ones thrilled with this generic bullshit architecture.  It looks like someone Xeroxed Macedonia and plopped it on the banks of the Cuyahoga.  How innovative! 

Brentwood Rd. NE, Dan. I'm not dancing with you on that again.

 

Which I've also said is a P.O.S. development.  No dance needed, but I'm really tired of the unsubstantiated "urbanism is only for the rich" suggestions. 

Brentwood Rd. NE, Dan. I'm not dancing with you on that again.

 

Which I've also said is a P.O.S. development.  No dance needed, but I'm really tired of the unsubstantiated "urbanism is only for the rich" suggestions. 

 

AGAIN

 

WHAT ARE YOU DOING FROM DC TO HELP CLEVELAND, other than bitching about whats wrong and not coming up with positive solutions and urban growth strategies?

Well, MTS, if you must know, I've offered suggestions, but "holier-than-thou" folks like you summarily dismiss them.  Why this is, you haven't made clear.  I notice you haven't responded to my idea of putting a Target store (or something akin to that) at W 25th and Lorain.  Or did you selectively not read that comment?  I notice you haven't commented on the need to fill currently vacant storefronts.  Don't you think SYC will make it LESS likely to lease vacant neighborhood retail space?  Of course, I recognize there is a double standard, as I don't live in Cleveland, and therefore automatically know less about urban design principles than anyone in Cuyahoga County. 

 

Cleveland is extremely frustrating.  It's almost as if it ignores what is happening in the rest of the country.  The approaches being taken toward redevelopment are very slapdash, and are not well thought-out.  There is not a consistent strategy, let alone a clearly established motivation, for improving the city.  It's a half-assed idea here, another half-assed idea there.    Thank God for Bob Stark, who I believe is the last best hope for the City of Cleveland.  Unfortunately, all the wonderful things about Cleveland are often shadowed by the hellbent determination to remake Cleveland into the largest suburb in Northeast Ohio.

 

I, for one, am not satisfied with the crumbs that Steelyard Commons is.  It's lowest common denominator development.  Anyone who thinks otherwise can just drive their ass 5 minutes down 176 and across the Valley View bridge and kiss my behind.  People in Cleveland deserve vibrant urban neighborhoods that work for them--not another gimmick where people "hope" it "inspires" more development in the city.  It's time to get rational, instead of trying to rationalize everything.  Cleveland deserves to be the great city it once was, and could be, if it weren't for people so willing to accept whatever bullshit scraps are thrown their way.

Well, MTS, if you must know, I've offered suggestions, but "holier-than-thou" folks like you summarily dismiss them.  Why this is, you haven't made clear.  I notice you haven't responded to my idea of putting a Target store (or something akin to that) at W 25th and Lorain.  Or did you selectively not read that comment?  I notice you haven't commented on the need to fill currently vacant storefronts.  Don't you think SYC will make it LESS likely to lease vacant neighborhood retail space?  Of course, I recognize there is a double standard, as I don't live in Cleveland, and therefore automatically know less about urban design principles than anyone in Cuyahoga County. 

 

Cleveland is extremely frustrating.  It's almost as if it ignores what is happening in the rest of the country.  The approaches being taken toward redevelopment are very slapdash, and are not well thought-out.  There is not a consistent strategy, let alone a clearly established motivation, for improving the city.  It's a half-assed idea here, another half-assed idea there.    Thank God for Bob Stark, who I believe is the last best hope for the City of Cleveland.  Unfortunately, all the wonderful things about Cleveland are often shadowed by the hellbent determination to remake Cleveland into the largest suburb in Northeast Ohio.

 

I, for one, am not satisfied with the crumbs that Steelyard Commons is.  It's lowest common denominator development.  Anyone who thinks otherwise can just drive their ass 5 minutes down 176 and across the Valley View bridge and kiss my behind.  People in Cleveland deserve vibrant urban neighborhoods that work for them--not another gimmick where people "hope" it "inspires" more development in the city.  It's time to get rational, instead of trying to rationalize everything.  Cleveland deserves to be the great city it once was, and could be, if it weren't for people so willing to accept whatever bullshit scraps are thrown their way.

 

Sweetie, apparently you didn't read what I wrote when I initially asked you that question.Here is what I wrote.

I too would have liked to see the stores at SYC replace vacant stores in  neighborhoods on the resurgence, but it is what it is.  ITS BEING BUILT.  Instead of saying it sucks...what are any of us doing to help with its future development and growth and use it as a catalyst to work with its adjacent communities

 

However, you're making suggestions HERE.  Who are you contacting, in any form, that can help this and other projects that are "sub standard" instead of just making suggestions HERE?

 

Let it be known, I, unlike the HBIC & HNIC, am not "holier-than-thou".  You stated you think SYC will make those place  harder to lease, then come up with a plan to make them more attractive. 

I only live in Cleveland 50% of the time myself, but I have a Cleveland proper address, and vote in Ohio.  Nobody is discounting your opinion, its your (how I read) condescending Debbie Downer-Killjoy attitude, that I can't stand.  Its a shame that I have to say that considering I've never met, and don't know anything about you.  However, that attitude, makes it hard for a person to want to get to know you, understand where your coming from and seriously listen to your ideas on how you would like Cleveland to progress in the future.

 

I don't know how old you are but you seem to think that DC is some perfect utopia and Cleveland is a black hole in the middle of the country nobody want to get close to and that the citizens have lost all hope of a better life.  How long did you live in Cleveland, oh, thats right you lived in some west side burb, IIRC. I am a proud & active resident of Clevelands Shaker Square neighborhood.  I cannot go into detail, but I have done many things behind the scenes for the city of Cleveland in the last two years.  I've poked my nose in situations where I had no responsibility and always asked that Cleveland be put in the mix...Hell, I even got my company's BOD to take a tour of the city when were looking for locations to relocate one company and acquiring another......What have you done for Cleveland?

 

VA is not urban goldmine is it??  Since you are not a resident of DC, I'd like to ask, where exactly do you live VA??  What is the name of your community?  Can you say you live in a community that does not have an enclosed mall or big box store or strip mall within a 5 to 10 mile radius?? Lastly, I'd like to request you stop comparing Cleveland and DC.  DC is propped up by the Fed Government.  DC proper itself is shrinking and many  people cannot afford to live there as housing has gone crazy. DC prior to 92/93 was a mess and in a worse state than Cleveland.  Cleveland is turning and now is the time to fix the support walls, as the foundation has been solid.

 

You're a critic of SYC and Cleveland in general, where were you when SYC was proposed?  again, you list all the negatives, I would sincerely like to see your list of "fixes" or "do overs" for each critique and forward that to someone who has the power to make a change.  Send it to the developer, community leaders, activist, concerned citizens, block clubs, elected officials, etc. Stop bashing and start producing.....you'll get along better with the kids in the sandbox..........

More fireworks than the 4th of July on this board.

 

Some serious chill pills needed on all sides.

 

MTS, I really hope actively improving the city doesn't become a litmus test for participating on this board.  That seems to me relevant only as an indication of a poster's genuineness, not really relevant to the substance of their opinions.  I doubt Dan would spend so much time on this board if he was not deeply interested in/had some affection for Cleveland, despite the negativity of his posts.

 

Dan, many of us are frustrated with how SYC was designed but many residents are even more frustrated by having absolutely nowhere to shop inside the city and the city is frustrated by capturing no benefit from most of the city's retail dollars- tax receipts or jobs.  Cleveland is not blessed with the same urban-minded upper middle class population or immigration that have been by and large responsible for the urban "resurgence" seen in East Coast cities or Chicago.  Cleveland does not "ignore what is happening in the rest of the country"-I think it is simply left out of it.  Hence the frustration with your DC comparisons.

I think StrapHanger nailed my thoughts.

 

The one issue that is difficult for the "urbanness" of Cleveland is, not everybody likes urban environments. I mean, look at Queens. Right off the bat, the houses are stacked over and over. Then you get way out there, and people have little itty, bitty yards. Then the yards get bigger the more you travel out there. The on Long Island, people own beaches!

 

For generations, popular culture has taught us to want a nice house with a nice, big yard and a nice car. Your kids should go to good schools, and you should have a good job. For most people, it's too much of a struggle to move to Tremont to fix up a house and then worry about your lawn furniture getting stolen. That might not happen frequently, but it doesn't happen at all in many suburbs.

 

I don't know. It's like we have to reprogram everyone to the idea that "urban" is not a bad word.

Sometimes you need to take one step back before you can take two forward. I see Steelyard in that way.

Would I be wrong in saying that SYC is a great attempt to making a re adaptive use of land, under any other circumstance would that land stay vacant and continue to be an eyesore as one drives into the city? (Great SYC signs by the way very creative and uniquely Cleveland) The days of large manufacturing is gone ( Thanks China) and I don't believe housing on that land would be ideal and I  believe I rather keep office buildings in or closer to downtown.  Secondly since i live in ATL,could someone correct me if I am wrong, doesn't SYC sit between two highways and not directly in any one particular neighborhood?  If that is the case how "urban aesthetic" can a developer make his project as it sits between two freeways.  For everyone who does not like the project, what would you do different, and moving your project to another piece of land is not an option, your project is only limited to the SYC site.  ( Keep in mind that the land was a former steel plant that used lots of chemicals.

One thing that is being consistently overlooked is that we can't tell Target, Walmart, et al where to build.  We can tell them OK, or if the zoning is wrong for what they want, we can tell them to go to hell, but we can't say, "we like your store, now build it on W. 25th and Lorain."

 

At any rate, SYC is a small fraction of the development occuring in Cleveland.  A cursory glance at this board would tell anyone who is serious about discussing ALL of the development that is happening in Cleveland, and not just in starting petty fights, that there is a wide variety of things going on in Cleveland.  Some are well designed, some poorly.  And I haven't exactly seen anyone on this board crapping themselves with delight at the thought of SYC, although some realize its utility.

Let me chime in on this one. I can tell you after talking to Mitchell Schneider (and several other developers who have spent a lifetime building in the suburbs and are now investing in the city) that he does not seem to grasp the idea that a development should be designed differently for the city. He knows only one way to build, so he built what he knew.

 

Developers generally don't learn how to build stuff by reading cool books like "The Creative Class" or "Transit Villages in the 21st Century" or "The Next American Metropolis." They usually don't have time to read entire books (I was blown away when Stark told me he had never heard of Richard Florida -- a few months later he said he read "The Creative Class" on a flight to Europe). Developers learn by experience and observation -- from their own development experiences and by observing the experiences of other developers. A few might even learn by attending seminars.

 

So when Mitchell Schneider builds something like Steelyard Commons, he may learn some things. If the parking lots are seldom full but the stores are busy with customers who arrived by walking, bicycles, RTA buses and, someday, an extension of the Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad, he will have experienced something new. He may even learn that the next time he builds something in the city that more emphasis should be placed on multi-modal transportation access. That would allow a smaller footprint for his next development, which might be wedged in between existing, pedestrian-oriented neighborhoods.

 

He may even come to the stunning realization that mixing residential, office and retail on the same property will improve his bottom line and that of his tenants. Then, with his next development, he might learn the importance of designing a positive street experience by having more retail spaces face the sidewalk, and having the right kinds of tenants at street corners to ensure activity at all hours and to offer convenient services to persons waiting for buses or streetcars.

 

Stark continues to make the same kind of evolution that Mitch Schneider might make. Fortunately or unfortunately, Stark's thinking evolved with projects in the suburbs (it would have been nice to have his learning investments in the city, but the city would be speckled with more suburban-style centers like Steelyard Commons or Ryser's [formerly!] Target store on West 117th). Other developers will make the evolution with experience as well, though some faster than others. Having said that, I'm not sure if the Jacobs Group will ever "get it" at the rate they're going!

a number of people asked what is so great about ikea.  the first default I have to this question is, its not walmart.  and in a lot of ways, I think it applies.  alot of what people get down on walmart for, you can look at ikea and see the opposite, or at least some difference.  despite planting their buildings off of highways in the burbs, they are in fact somewhat environmentally friendly.  they are making a push to build green.  they are also wedged in the middle of the fortune 500 best places to work, thanks to a well regarded benefits package.  as a result, they have exceptionally low turnover in staff.  I think it is easy to look at it from a big box = no good persepctive.  but it is also a bunch of jobs for an area that needs good jobs.  and if the choice was there, I woud rather see a bunch of people happy to be working at ikea than a bunch of people unhappy to be working at walmart. 

 

so sue me. 

One thing that is being consistently overlooked is that we can't tell Target, Walmart, et al where to build.  We can tell them OK, or if the zoning is wrong for what they want, we can tell them to go to hell, but we can't say, "we like your store, now build it on W. 25th and Lorain."

 

Since I sat on the sidelines for most of this (a very entertaining read, by the way), let me start off by saying "can't we all just get along"?  :lol: I applaud the passion shown by everyone...  :clap: just keep it topical, and avoid the personal attacks ("your argument sucks" is fine, but keep away from the "you suck" comments).

 

Now, onto why I quoted X's comment above. In a sense, we CAN tell them where to build, through the use of tax incentives, zoning (as you mentioned), permitting, etc... Cue Tony Soprano, "That's a nice store you've got there... be a real shame if that tax incentive went away, though"  :wink2:.

 

Unfortunately, in this case we (through our elected officials) didn't, and I'm willing to recognize the reality of what we've got and work with it toward a greater good. I also don't necessarily fault the powers-that-be, as they know that they are in a competitive situation with every other locality, and that being overly-restrictive will result in development of ANY kind drying up.

 

To give an example of the type of local development that will continue to benefit from this (or regardless of this), I live on the Cleveland/Euclid border, near E 200th, and while there is a Subway and a Home Depot steps from my door, I still eat more meals at Adam's on 200th and Gus's Diner on 185th, and when I needed a broken window pane replaced, I took the sash over to E 200th Hardware and had it fixed same day, and he even primed the sash for me "because it looked like it needed it" (I know of no Home Depot, Lowe's, or any other big box that offers such services).

 

In a nutshell, If I just want PRODUCT at the lowest PRICE (which is most likely if I've already done all the value-added research), I'll go to a big box. If I want SERVICE and/or EXPERTISE, it's local all the way. That is a competitive advantage that no big box store will ever be able to compete with, and the big box model even recognizes this, which is why they compete so aggressively on price -- it's really all they've got.

In a nutshell, If I just want PRODUCT at the lowest PRICE (which is most likely if I've already done all the value-added research), I'll go to a big box. If I want SERVICE and/or EXPERTISE, it's local all the way.

 

Well said.

Brentwood Rd. NE, Dan. I'm not dancing with you on that again.

 

Which I've also said is a P.O.S. development.  No dance needed, but I'm really tired of the unsubstantiated "urbanism is only for the rich" suggestions. 

 

Brentwood is needed. It's tax reciepts that were going to PG county. Not everything can be a condo with a Whole Foods on the ground floor.

 

Unsubstantiated? What fantasy land are you living in? Is it coinsidence that DC's murder rate nearing a 20 year low...while PG county is setting records every year. Is it concidence that the poverty rate is declining in DC...while increasing in PG county? Are you saying the Post, Census Bureau and the FBI are making these stats up? Seriously, if you want to ignore this stuff that's fine with me. But, unsubstantiated...please...read the Metro section once in a while.

 

I'm not being "holier than thou", I'm being a realist.

a number of people asked what is so great about ikea.  the first default I have to this question is, its not walmart.  and in a lot of ways, I think it applies.  alot of what people get down on walmart for, you can look at ikea and see the opposite, or at least some difference.  despite planting their buildings off of highways in the burbs, they are in fact somewhat environmentally friendly.  they are making a push to build green.  they are also wedged in the middle of the fortune 500 best places to work, thanks to a well regarded benefits package.  as a result, they have exceptionally low turnover in staff.  I think it is easy to look at it from a big box = no good persepctive.  but it is also a bunch of jobs for an area that needs good jobs.  and if the choice was there, I woud rather see a bunch of people happy to be working at ikea than a bunch of people unhappy to be working at walmart. 

 

so sue me. 

 

Math, how is building a 300,000 ft. square building with surface parking in suburban Cincinnati environmentally friendly? I'm not expert on this subject....but I think Target has been more on the ball in building smarter/cleaner than IKEA.

 

I'm sure it's a fine place to work, but again, IKEA isn't exactly helping city workforces by building in the outer 'burbs. It's more options for college kids and soccer moms looking for some extra cash.

 

Just to bring it back on point again:

 

Outside of KJP, I really haven't heard anyone against this project propose something different. What would have been the ideal new construction for this site?

What was the urgency to get something built on this particular site to begin with?

If there were any sort of wordly knowledge on the part of the city, the rolling mills and warehouses could have served as a World Heritage Site, similiar to what has been done in the Rein-Ruhr Region of Germany (the "Midwest" of that country).  They have utilized abandoned steel mills as recreation opportunities for residents and visitors. 

Check it out what Cleveland and other Midwestern cities are missing out on:

http://www.metropolismag.com/html/content_1000/lat.htm

 

Wouldn't you rather have these types of amenities, and then have the retail fit into the central core somehow?

i like throwing out random numbers:

 

Industrial Valley Population 1910: 18,886 ppl

Industrial Valley Population 1990: 543 ppl

w28th, that's a very good piece from Metropolis - I enjoyed reading again and it certainly would apply to the Steelyard site. However, there's an important quote: "In 1989, the Westphalian government chartered an organization called the IBA, a flexible, independent planning corporation, to transform the Ruhr's image with innovative architectural and cultural projects." In other words, the group was able to secure state-level backing to create the IBA. Cleveland can't get state-level backing to support its own home-rule laws or much of anything for that matter. Could that change with Strickland as governor? I'd like to think it could (and would). 

MTS, I will respond to your points in some detail later today. 

 

I intend to begin a new thread to elaborate more thoroughly on my frustrations with Cleveland, and what can be done with Cleveland to make it a better place to live and work. 

Check it out what Cleveland and other Midwestern cities are missing out on:

 

I wouldn't say missing out, You have Rays MTB in OB and I "believe" that it is spurring other such projects around it.  Haven't been there yet, but a bunch of co-works for NR go there all the time and say it's a blast...Not to misdirect the thread, but has anyone been there?

 

http://www.raysmtb.com/

 

As far as SYC, as being a FAR west side resident, It will be nice to spend my money at SYC instead of Ridge Park Square.  I'll bet 80% of OB residents will say the same...

As promised, MTS, my point-by-point response. 

 

Let it be known, I, unlike the HBIC & HNIC, am not "holier-than-thou".  You stated you think SYC will make those place  harder to lease, then come up with a plan to make them more attractive

Granted, Cleveland is drastically under-retailed as of this moment.  If you reach market saturation in the future by building a whole slew of strip malls and power centers, however, who is going to lease vacant storefronts?  This naturally leads to a decrease in real estate values of the unleaseable space, leading to abandonment, delinquency, and so on.

 

 

I only live in Cleveland 50% of the time myself, but I have a Cleveland proper address, and vote in Ohio.  Nobody is discounting your opinion, its your (how I read) condescending Debbie Downer-Killjoy attitude, that I can't stand.  Its a shame that I have to say that considering I've never met, and don't know anything about you.  However, that attitude, makes it hard for a person to want to get to know you, understand where your coming from and seriously listen to your ideas on how you would like Cleveland to progress in the future.

Would you rather I blow sunshine up your behind?  It's my belief that being a sycophant isn't going to help matters much.  At the same time, this board isn't here for me to bitch about my own neighborhood, or complain about the delays on the Metro this morning.  I don't try to be condescending--I try to offer a different perspective and thoughtful criticism based on my own observations from the East Coast.  When I'm in the middle of the downtown of a large American city in the middle of a weekday afternoon, and it feels damn-near apocalyptic, something has gone wrong.  I'm not going to pretend otherwise. 

 

I don't know how old you are but you seem to think that DC is some perfect utopia and Cleveland is a black hole in the middle of the country nobody want to get close to and that the citizens have lost all hope of a better life. 

Twenty-nine.  See above.  As a design professional, I'm critical of the entire built environment.  I get paid to have high design standards.  Deal with it.

 

How long did you live in Cleveland, oh, thats right you lived in some west side burb, IIRC. I am a proud & active resident of Clevelands Shaker Square neighborhood.  I cannot go into detail, but I have done many things behind the scenes for the city of Cleveland in the last two years.  I've poked my nose in situations where I had no responsibility and always asked that Cleveland be put in the mix...Hell, I even got my company's BOD to take a tour of the city when were looking for locations to relocate one company and acquiring another......What have you done for Cleveland?

I grew up in Maple Heights, and lived there for almost 19 years.  As a kid, I would go downtown to see my Dad at work; go into the city to visit family; shop at Higbee's, May Company, and Woolworth's; get on the bus to see the Indians, or for a concert; hang out in the Flats/WHD when home from college; grab a bite to eat or a cup of coffee and hang out with friends.  I recently came back from a 10 day Cleveland bender where I attempted to single-handedly keep several bars and restaurants in business.  Do I get my Cleveland passport renewed or not?

 

VA is not urban goldmine is it??  Since you are not a resident of DC, I'd like to ask, where exactly do you live VA??  What is the name of your community?  Can you say you live in a community that does not have an enclosed mall or big box store or strip mall within a 5 to 10 mile radius??

The name of my community is Capitol Hill.  Your 5-10 mile barometer is faulty--because of higher population densities, there is a lot more in 5-10 miles here than in Cleveland.  With that being said, there is a strip mall about a mile north of my house (it sucks), and the closest mall is in Arlington, Virginia. 

 

Lastly, I'd like to request you stop comparing Cleveland and DC.  DC is propped up by the Fed Government.  DC proper itself is shrinking and many  people cannot afford to live there as housing has gone crazy. DC prior to 92/93 was a mess and in a worse state than Cleveland.  Cleveland is turning and now is the time to fix the support walls, as the foundation has been solid.

Cleveland is propped up by Key Bank and the Cleveland Clinic.  Detroit is propped up by GM.  New York is propped up by Wall Street.  Los Angeles is propped up by Hollywood.  Re-read your statement immediately above--you can't have it both ways.  But because we're so propped up by the federal government, we are not able to tax 40% of our land, are not allowed to impose a commuter tax, and pay $2000 a day for the Vice President's daily commute.  Would you rather I compare Cleveland to Buffalo, so that Cleveland looks better by comparison, and nobody's feelings get hurt?

 

The population of the District has stabilized around 570,000, and is expected to show an increase in the 2010 Census.  Oh yeah, this despite nobody being able to afford to live here. 

 

Should I feel sorry for people who decide to cash out on their houses and move to the burbs?  Of course not.  A lot of those people are profiting hundreds of thousands of dollars simply for owning the same place for 10 or 20 years.  Then they abandon the city, except for driving in on Sunday to attend church.   

 

You're a critic of SYC and Cleveland in general, where were you when SYC was proposed?  again, you list all the negatives, I would sincerely like to see your list of "fixes" or "do overs" for each critique and forward that to someone who has the power to make a change.  Send it to the developer, community leaders, activist, concerned citizens, block clubs, elected officials, etc. Stop bashing and start producing.....you'll get along better with the kids in the sandbox..........

You want positive suggestions?  Look for my manifesto soon.