Its a bad habit that I picked up from my years in Tennessee. My wife always would say: Let's go to Krogers. Let's get a Dairy Queen, etc.

Its a bad habit that I picked up from my years in Tennessee. My wife always would say: Let's go to Krogers. Let's get a Dairy Queen, etc.

 

oddly enough, my friends senile grandmother is from tennessee

^Isn't that the Best Buy in Mayfield?  Or maybe I have it confused with the Best Buy in Fairfax, Virginia.

 

Congratulations, Cleveland, on creating a spectacular Nowhere.

 

too bad, best buy is not shy about architecture. there was a 70's version of a best buy store with a bite out of the corner, does anyone know that one? i cant recall the architect or find a pic, but it was rather famous.

 

oh well.

 

here is an interesting fairly new urban one i found -- its in seattle on a slim parcel of land:

 

 

there was a 70's version of a best buy store with a bite out of the corner, does anyone know that one? i cant recall the architect or find a pic, but it was rather famous.

 

SITE designed a series of playful stores for Best Products in the 1970s: http://siteenvirodesign.com/proj.best.php

I have forgotten all about those.

They are nice, but still just giant brick walls... most of them, anyway.

 

there was a 70's version of a best buy store with a bite out of the corner, does anyone know that one? i cant recall the architect or find a pic, but it was rather famous.

 

SITE designed a series of playful stores for Best Products in the 1970s: http://siteenvirodesign.com/proj.best.php

 

yeah that it! awesome find thanks. those pics are all interesting takes on a big box store for sure.

what is it with ihops obsession with outlots? It must  be in the company's master plan, outlots only!

 

well at least coldayman will be happy.

 

That new strip mall of yours is a black man's dream!  Marshall's!  IHOP!  Staples!  Chick-Fil-A!  And the world-famous PAYLESS SHOES!  Dear Christ, screw Cracker Park.  THIS is the place to go!!!

I'm sorry, I just can't get at all excited by , big-box sprawl/auto-oriented a strip mall in a poor city where most residents don't own cars.  Seems like such a waste... At the very least, the proposed CVSR commuter rail goes right by the site, but then there's this:

 

"But Kittredge said she is excited about other plans, including one that could extend the Towpath Trail and connect Steelyard with downtown and Harvard Avenue."

 

I mean, is anyone "excited" about potential commuter rail connecting Valley View, Akron, A-C airport and Canton/Pro football HOF?... Maybe it's me, but I don't go to cities to walk on hiking trails near or where passenger rail tracks should be; I go out into the woods.  Yes, I understand the Towpath is different, but the whole rails-to-trails movement seems a cop out for cities lacking the guts to build commuter rail/rapid transit.

I'm sorry, I just can't get at all excited by , big-box sprawl/auto-oriented a strip mall in a poor city where most residents don't own cars.  Seems like such a waste... At the very least, the proposed CVSR commuter rail goes right by the site, but then there's this:

 

"But Kittredge said she is excited about other plans, including one that could extend the Towpath Trail and connect Steelyard with downtown and Harvard Avenue."

 

I mean, is anyone "excited" about potential commuter rail connecting Valley View, Akron, A-C airport and Canton/Pro football HOF?... Maybe it's me, but I don't go to cities to walk on hiking trails near or where passenger rail tracks should be; I go out into the woods.  Yes, I understand the Towpath is different, but the whole rails-to-trails movement seems a cop out for cities lacking the guts to build commuter rail/rapid transit.

 

Most residents don't own cars?  I think I'd check the numbers on that one, if I were you.

 

Considering that most rail-trails I know aren't in urban areas at all or aren't on natural commuter corridors I'd say you're off base there, too.

Actually, according to the US Census, 24.57 percent of Cleveland households don't have access to a car. Considering that there are about 190,638 households in Cleveland with an average of 2.44 people per household, that translates to about 114,289 Clevelanders with no access to a car (that includes children however).

Actually, according to the US Census, 24.57 percent of Cleveland households don't have access to a car. Considering that there are about 190,638 households in Cleveland with an average of 2.44 people per household, that translates to about 114,289 Clevelanders with no access to a car (that includes children however).

 

KJP,

 

Speaking of the no car access issue. How is RTA re-routing it's existing bus service to serve Steelyard Commons? Are there any new lines being created for Steelyard?

^Isn't that the Best Buy in Mayfield?  Or maybe I have it confused with the Best Buy in Fairfax, Virginia.

 

Congratulations, Cleveland, on creating a spectacular Nowhere.

 

too bad, best buy is not shy about architecture. there was a 70's version of a best buy store with a bite out of the corner, does anyone know that one? i cant recall the architect or find a pic, but it was rather famous.

 

oh well.

 

here is an interesting fairly new urban one i found -- its in seattle on a slim parcel of land:

 

 

 

I'm not a big fan of Best Buy after what they did at Tysons Corner, VA. Best Buy moved into the area buy putting their store in a newly constructed office building adjacent to a Borders. It was the first retail center that was truly "urban" in a strip mall hell. Then about 9 months after it's opening, a strip mall Toys-R-Us closed about a mile down the road. Best Buy promptly moved out of the building and into the old Toys-R-Us space. Meanwhile, the original space has now been vacant for close to 4 months. Not too thrilled with that move.

Actually, according to the US Census, 24.57 percent of Cleveland households don't have access to a car. Considering that there are about 190,638 households in Cleveland with an average of 2.44 people per household, that translates to about 114,289 Clevelanders with no access to a car (that includes children however).

 

No doubt, many don't have a car, but slightly less than 1/4 doesn't fit the generally acknowledged meaning of "most".

 

 

 

KJP,

 

Speaking of the no car access issue. How is RTA re-routing it's existing bus service to serve Steelyard Commons? Are there any new lines being created for Steelyard?

 

NO, but it might be in syc furture, they currently building big bus shelters.

I've heard that the Tremont Circulator is including Steelyard Commons on their route.

 

Btw, there is a difference between not having access to a car, and choosing not to own a car. And not everyone in that situation is below the poverty line, thank you.

mso how was the opening?  Any pictures?

KJP,

 

Speaking of the no car access issue. How is RTA re-routing it's existing bus service to serve Steelyard Commons? Are there any new lines being created for Steelyard?

 

 

NO, but it might be in syc furture, they currently building big bus shelters.

 

As of Jan. 28, the Tremont Circulator began operating via Steelyard Commons. I saw one heading down Steelyard Drive last week, and RTA's new schedule for the route is out:

http://www.riderta.com/pdf/807.pdf

 

The 81 bus is next to be rerouted via SYC, but I don't know when. It's timetable does not yet show any routing/schedule change.

ummmmmmmmmmmm  :|

 

If that was going to happen, they might as well say each on of those establishments better build the biggest and best store they can since we wont see any tax money for a decade.

Steelyard Commons...  it's fantastic.

The one aspect of this project that's worth mentioning gets scuttled because of something discovered "late last year"? I smell a steaming pile of horsesh!t and if they lose out on the trail extension, there should be hell to pay.  :whip: I'm not going to buy for one second that no one had a clue about this crap.

^ The timing is suspect...

There is no fricking way these companies did not know about this tax break.  They all have tons of stores in Ohio, and have f**king corporate lawyers that eat this type of sh*t for breakfast.  This is a snow job.

They got "Wal-Marted".

but who are we mad at?

 

i don't remember the companies ever representing that they were doing anything. they located at a site proposed by a developer.   wal-mart has never said "we are paying taxes." (and actually the WSJ had a good article on their real estate lease-back structure this week showing how they were paying very few state or local taxes anyway).

 

it was the developer and the city working out TIF details, perhaps in a vacuum from what the companies were doing, becuase my understanding of a TIF in operation is that taxes are paid normally by company and the taxing authority divides it up differently to pay for the improvements or other earmarked activities. 

 

so, the developer seems interested in holding to his agreement and i believe that he still owns 60% of the land but has leased it out, so although the tax break might follow ownership, are all of the stores really owners or just tenants?  EDIT: so it appears that the 3 big boxes might actually own their land and exempt, but i'd like to see $$ associated.  they will still pay income and sales tax.

There is no fricking way these companies did not know about this tax break.  They all have tons of stores in Ohio, and have f**king corporate lawyers that eat this type of sh*t for breakfast.  This is a snow job.

You got that sussed.  They hired Mayor Campbell's Director of Economic Development as their attorney.

  EDIT: so it appears that the 3 big boxes might actually own their land and exempt, but i'd like to see $$ associated.  they will still pay income and sales tax.

Income and sales taxes won't pay for the Towpath Trail.

...Stealyards?

it just supports transparency.  walmart doesn't want to pay taxes, cleveland clinic doesn't want to treat the poor, key bank doesn't give many loans in its headquarters city, the water department can't find equipment, the building department doesn't know where their handhelds are.  i don't expect anyone to "do the right thing" on their own, but with the proper transparency throughout the process, it shouldn't come as a surprise to people later. 

 

it also gets back to accountability.  if schneider wasn't going to physically own all of the land, how could he commit to the property tax?  who was the city lawyer on this deal?  competent city lawyer: "umm, well, you actually aren't going to own the 3 largest parcels, so you can't really speak for their property interests."  cleveland city lawyer: "i'm underpaid, let's get this deal signed." 

 

i'm not convinced that it is a fleecing as much as incompetence and lack of accountability with the city administration. 

i'm not convinced that it is a fleecing as much as incompetence and lack of accountability with the city administration.

 

That is exactly my point.  The big boxes and possibly the developer new about this, its the lack of knowledge/competence by the city that frustrates me.

I am not convinced they knew about it.

Think about who this will affect the most - Tow Path Trail.

I asked and was told they do not think Interstate or the Boxes knew about it. It is a relatively new state program that was created to intice developers to build on brownfields.

 

 

Then again, I see the glass as half full.

This reminds me of a Simpson's episode when the family needed money, so Bart offered to take up smoking, then quit and pitch in the cigarette money to the family....

 

I bet you both Wal-Mart and Target take the tax break, then donate the money to the towpath and schools

 

But, for the record, I do not believe any person or company should pay more in taxes than is what is legally required, so I would not blame them for taking the money.

No Taxes, No Business...

 

Should be the words coming out of every Clevelanders' mouth when talking about this subject...

Great irony here.  The millions in tax revenue that this is supposed to create has to be given to the city voluntarily.  I don't know if that'll fly... look at the Clinic.

I agree with oldmanlady luck.  I f the Clinic/university hospitals paid taxes, we'd be in a lot better shape.

wow, I never expected this to happen..

 

Wal-Mart hands back Steelyard tax break

Posted by Plain Dealer Business staff February 19, 2007 14:23PM

Categories: Breaking News

Wal-Mart Stores Inc. has agreed to give up a 10-year property tax exemption for the store it plans at Steelyard Commons, Mayor Frank Jackson said today. Steelyards developer Mitch Schneider said he'll be giving up his tax break, too. That means city schools gets back millions of dollars it would have lost because of a state law that grants exemptions for sites where owners complete voluntary environmental cleanups.

 

wow, I never expected this to happen..

 

Wal-Mart hands back Steelyard tax break

Posted by Plain Dealer Business staff February 19, 2007 14:23PM

Categories: Breaking News

Wal-Mart Stores Inc. has agreed to give up a 10-year property tax exemption for the store it plans at Steelyard Commons, Mayor Frank Jackson said today. Steelyards developer Mitch Schneider said he'll be giving up his tax break, too. That means city schools gets back millions of dollars it would have lost because of a state law that grants exemptions for sites where owners complete voluntary environmental cleanups.

 

Wow!  Good PR move for Walmart. That was very nice of walmart.

 

However, what did they get in order to do that?  Was this done of free will?  I'm sure there is more to this than announced.

 

If you saw my article last week, it appears that Target and Home Depot will also opt out of theirs. If that's the case, the city will have the entire TIF to work with, as they originally hoped.

If you saw my article last week, it appears that Target and Home Depot will also opt out of theirs. If that's the case, the city will have the entire TIF to work with, as they originally hoped.

 

Thanks.  I need to reread some posting. I haven't been keeping up as of lately.

Press Release Source: Wal-Mart Stores, Inc.

 

 

Wal-Mart Announces Jobs and Opportunity Zone in Cleveland

Monday February 19, 1:00 pm ET

Initiative Aims to Bolster Economic Opportunities on Near West Side Surrounding the Upcoming Supercenter

 

 

CLEVELAND, Feb. 19 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- With the impending opening of a Supercenter in the Tremont neighborhood, Wal-Mart Stores, Inc. (NYSE: WMT - News) Regional General Manager Jerry Spencer today announced the selection of Cleveland as a "Wal-Mart Jobs and Opportunity Zone." The program will provide support to local businesses by offering advertising inside Wal-Mart's store and in local newspapers, as well as presenting additional funding for local chambers of commerce.

 

The company also announced eight other Jobs and Opportunity Zones:

 

  - Landover Hills, Maryland - Portsmouth, Virginia

  - Richmond, California - El Mirage, Arizona

  - East Hills, Pennsylvania - Sanger, California

  - Indianapolis, Indiana   - Decatur, Georgia

 

"It's about creating opportunity beyond the four walls of our stores," said Spencer. "And it's about making unique contributions to the communities we serve, the millions of customers who rely on us and the thousands of associates we employ in communities just like this one."

 

The Jobs and Opportunities Zone initiative was launched by Wal-Mart CEO Lee Scott last year at the first store within the Chicago city limits. In addition to creating hundreds of jobs and generating substantial tax revenue, the company worked with local businesses and organizations to spur job creation and economic development around the store.

 

Read More...

Wow, I am very pleased to hear that everyone who is eligible will be passing on the exemption.  I know it's just pennies to Wal-Mart, but this is a positive sign (along with the other posted news) that they are actually looking at the local impacts of their projects, beyond their own bottom line.  Unexpected and hopefully a sign of good practices to come.

Good news! I think Wal-Mart is really thinking about being a "good corporate" citizen these days, especially since they have less room to seek and destroy around the country. They seem to be a little more "soft-hearted" on a variety of issues.

^Or so they want you to believe.

I really think that ever since Sam Walton died they have really tried to improve their coporate image. I have worked for Wal-Mart for the past year, and some of the people that have worked there for years say that the company has changed dramatically in the past 3-4 years. They have done small things like this, and then they have instituted large programs such as the $4 generic prescription program, and the job opportunity zones. They also do not treat their employees as bad as people say. They have relatively affordable healthcare coverage, they match up to 15% on the dollar for an employee stock purchase program, all employees are eligible for profit sharing (the avg check last year at my store for a full time employee was about $800), and they also give up to $2500 for tuition reimbursement for their employees.

^ I think it is the other way around. Their corporate image has tarnished since Walton died.

Good news! I think Wal-Mart is really thinking about being a "good corporate" citizen these days, especially since they have less room to seek and destroy around the country. They seem to be a little more "soft-hearted" on a variety of issues.

Good move by the company owned by the richest people in the world. 

 

Wal*Mart cannot afford any more bad publicity.  There is already a substantial number of consumers who refuse to shop at Wal*Mart.  Wal*mart already has this image of being low-paying, miserly on health benefits, sponging off our Medicaid budget (corporate welfare), small-business-destroying, and empowering China by sending jobs out of the country.  Especially heinous is that they built their brand with all that flag-waving, Made-in-America B/S.

 

I will wait in the car if you want to go in there

"There is already a substantial number of consumers who refuse to shop at Wal*Mart"

 

:wave:

^Isn't that the Best Buy in Mayfield?  Or maybe I have it confused with the Best Buy in Fairfax, Virginia.

 

Congratulations, Cleveland, on creating a spectacular Nowhere.

 

Dan,  how can a big box center not be seen as a nowhere?  Can you please explain?  Does  a transit stop make it a non-nowhere?  Does designing it into an urban context make it a non-nowhere?

 

Upon entering SteelYard, I'd have to say that it  has more character than just about any big box center I've ever visited, urban or suburban.

Cleveland Public Art and others have been working to put a sculpture in the middle of the traffic circle at W.14th/Steelyard Drive. It should go in this summer. 

Upon entering SteelYard, I'd have to say that it  has more character than just about any big box center I've ever visited, urban or suburban.

 

Please don't confuse stick-on applique with "character".  They are not one and the same.  One is a cartoon, the other is a result of careful civic design.  At the end of the day, Steelyard Commons is a CMU and EIFS P.O.S. strip mall plopped into acres of parking--no matter how much lipstick they put on that pig.

 

Dan,  how can a big box center not be seen as a nowhere?  Can you please explain?  Does  a transit stop make it a non-nowhere?  Does designing it into an urban context make it a non-nowhere?

 

Primarily, Steelyard Commons is a "nowhere" because it fails to define its space and to create any sort of environment, other than moonscaped parking lot.  Traditional civic design, i.e. the art that was destroyed in favor of transportation engineering after WWII, requires that a sense of an outdoor room be created in order to define a space.  Steelyard Commons fails to achieve this in several regards:

 

1.  Building heights are extremely low in relation to building footprints and the acreage to be defined.  The form of the site is linear and two-dimensional.  There is a lack of connectivity to the rest of the city.  The form of the development is not unique, but carbon-copied from ubiquitous developments anywhere across the country. 

 

2.  Too much open space bleeds all over, and presents psychological confusion.  The scale is too enormous to be comprehended as a well-defined place.

 

3.  Building orientations pay no respect to surrounding environment.  The buildings are merely plopped into the middle of the parking lots, which are designed solely for maximum flow and storage of vehicles.

 

4.  No "square", "circle", or other park to serve as a gathering place.

 

5.  No focal point.

 

6.  Cheap building materials reflect the owner's disdain for the property.  Well defined urban spaces require more substantial investment than styrofoam and plastic to adorn them with respect.

 

7.  Entire lot is privately owned.  True urban spaces are public.  There are no civic amenities at this site.

 

8.  Classical orders of architecture (i.e. everything before Modernism) treated buildings as humanistic, with a foot, torso, and head (Think of Greek architecture, with its massive bases, columns, and pediments.)  The primary orientation is vertical, much as people stand upright.  Horizontal structures were created by a repetition of vertical elements. 

 

Steelyard Commons is a series of horizontal, windowless boxes.  The "architecture" is not designed to be humanistic, but instead a machine for consumer consumption.  It is hard to imagine these buildings surviving intact even 50 years from now.

 

 

Dan, don't cut and paste your text book responses for a place that you've never visited. I was there last weekend and the Guv is correct. Its a very interesting experience. From the parking lot, you see this large working steel mill closely situated behind all the boxes. To the north, there is a bluff with an assortment of homes sitting atop it. To the west, there are a few stories of highway bridges that bookend the site. I'm not saying that its a wonderful place, but you definitely know that you are somewhere different.