Well, I am not in favor of this project.  There are some positives to it, though.  That said, I don't even know how to get to the Jennings freeway.

 

The developer was quite intelligent/devilish with his tactics.  This is Council's fault and Jane's fault.  I guess she can now campaign by saying that she is bringing nearly 2,000 jobs back to the city.

There'd better be some sort of pact with the developers that they invest in some true urban development in the VERY near future...I mean, come on...if Jane is throwing herself out there for them, the least they could do is make another big profit off a development that we urbanists would actually like to see! 

 

I'm with the rest of us hosers who don't know where the h-e-double hockey stick this is...  Is the possibility of spinoff development and further brownfield redevelopment a remote or reasonable possibility???

the general site was listed earlier, but this page has all the info for those of us who aren't intimately familiar with the old LTV property or the Jennings Freeway...

 

http://www.goodmanrealestate.com/property.asp?idProperty=32#

 

I'm buying Riverside Cemetary and building a gated community with big McMansions in between the gravestones...

I'm buying Riverside Cemetary and building a gated community with big McMansions in between the gravestones...

 

I want in.

too late...i just talked to some old ladies and they sold it to me for a few boxes of saltines and some raisins

I guess the only way in for me is to buy a cemetery plot.

Well, I am not in favor of this project. There are some positives to it, though. That said, I don't even know how to get to the Jennings freeway.

 

The developer was quite intelligent/devilish with his tactics. This is Council's fault and Jane's fault. I guess she can now campaign by saying that she is bringing nearly 2,000 jobs back to the city.

 

 

I think this got around council.  weren't there "secret" meeting with the mayor without councils knowledge?  I just don't understaand why were attempting to make a "commons" when we have the space and the NEED right in HEART of downtown.  I can't see a walmart downtown but target, circuit city could construct stores or renovate empty buildings right in the heart of downtown.  This would lead to continuous street level retail.  ARGH!  :whip:

Well, at the risk of being the most unpopular person on the forum, I will stick my neck out and say, I like this development.

 

It reminds me of a shopping area in Chicago around North Ave and Racine that had big box retailers in it.  It was on the grounds of an old factory, bordered by the river.  The big boxes were shoehorned in on angles, and while there was a lot of parking, it was broken up by smaller stores, so it was not a sea of asphalt.

 

I know, I know, Cleveland and Chicago are different.

 

But, there is no tax breaks for it so the schools will get money on day 1, they are donating a stretch of the towpath trail, and modest as they are, there will be jobs there. 

 

 

 

Don't worry Punch.  I think there are many of us here who find that at least a small part of us is glad for this development.  I'm trying to see it as an investment by outside capital in our city...they see the profitability of marketing to our center-city, and maybe it will open other, more conscientious developers' eyes to our fine city and its development potential.

 

I just wish that we were pushing them more towards good design.  I mean, they've got to go through the design review, right?  Why not mandate a layout where parking doesn't dominate the landscape from all angles?  Why not mandate a better mixture of uses, or at least the allowance for them as another phase of development?  And absolutely, provide for the Towpath Trail.  If this thing blocked its path, I don't know that it would have gotten anyone's approval.

 

We do have to remember that there isn't anyone else fighting for this site.  It's locked in by freeways and an industrial stretch of the Cuyahoga, so this could be a positive step towards making our valley more livable, and less environmentally destructive...  As for the jobs...well, they're gone already and that's a story for another day.

The only thing about this development that sucks is that there is no planned residential. With a lot of other developments in Cleveland I am suprised that they did not build at least a small about of residential. I am guessing that this site is a "brownfield", and if it is, this is the 4th one to be cleaned up and reused in the past month.

 

We must remember that a lot of construction jobs will be created to build this. Also, these companies will be able to provide employment for the 50% of our public school students who do not graduate high school.

Wooly,

 

I think that this site is way too close to the steel mills.  It would be a tough sell to convince people to buy housing next to the blast furnances. 

 

BTW, I drove my Penske rental truck from Tennessee to Cleveland today.  Its good to back again after 9 years in exhile. 

Welcome back!  BTW, I dont like this development, not one bit.

Well, at the risk of being the most unpopular person on the forum, I will stick my neck out and say, I like this development.

 

It reminds me of a shopping area in Chicago around North Ave and Racine that had big box retailers in it. It was on the grounds of an old factory, bordered by the river. The big boxes were shoehorned in on angles, and while there was a lot of parking, it was broken up by smaller stores, so it was not a sea of asphalt.

 

I know, I know, Cleveland and Chicago are different.

 

But, there is no tax breaks for it so the schools will get money on day 1, they are donating a stretch of the towpath trail, and modest as they are, there will be jobs there.

 

You’re not “unpopular”.  Trust me I'm glad for the construction jobs and whatever the final number of jobs the "commons" will employ. 

 

My concern is this is in an area that isn't conveniently located and how will it effect simultaneous/future downtown development since many of these store SHOULD/NEED to be located downtown for the residents who do not have any retail options and if they live downtown would (most likely) want nearby(within 12 blocks) street level retail.  In addition, with the development at CSU and in the Sterling Payne & Upper Prospect neighborhoods starting to see new build homes and condos downtown retail will be needed.

 

I can't find much information on how much this will help the neighborhoods of Tremont, Ohio City, Newburgh or Cuyahoga heights.  I think this project is across the freeway from Metro Health.  What role will RTA play?  Can they build or extend a rail line thru the project that will connect this project to the neighborhoods adjacent to the project and to the existing rail system??   Can this project help with spin-off development on duck island and Scranton peninsula??

 

I just want to understand how we can maximize the potential of the project instead of making it a "one-off" without a plan for continual development around this project.

 

Cleveland and Chicago are not so different...we just fell off the map after "the default" and we have recently had a few setbacks.  We reemerged in the 90s but we we're still stuck in the late 70s.  We're playing catch-up...but lets not just create projects for "the hell of it" lets create projects that ENHANCE the lives of the citizens of Cleveland and are a source of civic pride.

 

Lets BE INVOLVED in creating bright spots for the city, sources of income and convenience as well as project that the community (the project resides in) feels is an ASSET.  Lets bring back our neighborhoods and city but lets do it RIGHT!

 

I feel like I’m one of Cleveland’s biggest cheerleaders - I need more information on this project.

/\ I don't think that the developer is too concerned about Cleveland with this project.  He just thinks that it will be profitable.  I originally thought that it would have access from 77.  That made more sense as it would catch a lot of people on their way home from work. But this is on the other side of the mills, and I am not really sure how uses the Jennings freeway.  We shall see. I know that I will shop there when I need a big box in my life.  I'd rather throw my money there instead of Avon or Beachwood.

I just want to understand how we can maximize the potential of the project instead of making it a "one-off" without a plan for continual development around this project.

 

my point exactly...it's cut off by freeways on three sides and the industrial river on the fourth...so how can we build more capacity around it if not on site?  The allusions to transit improvements are definitely on point, and the extension of the Towpath Trail will add another element of access or varied use.  And on the subject of rail extension...there was mention of the Cuyahoga Valley Scenic RR passing through here earlier in the thread...  any news on that?

 

and again, I'll reiterate my positive statement that even if the developer is only in this for the profit...at least they're viewing Cleveland as a profitable place to build...sends a good message, even if it's with the wrong sort of project, right?

If someone has a little bit of time, could you please provide a street map (or labelled aerial) of the site for me/us?  I think there was one, but I can't find it (the one on page 1 of this thread isn't too helpful).

 

Thanks.

If someone has a little bit of time, could you please provide a street map (or labelled aerial) of the site for me/us? I think there was one, but I can't find it (the one on page 1 of this thread isn't too helpful).

 

Thanks.

 

THIS IS THE BEST I COULD DO.  ITS FROM AN EARLIER THREAD.

 

http://www.goodmanrealestate.com/property.asp?idProperty=32

^ Thanks.  I was just trying to see where it was in relation to the CBD.

^ Thanks. I was just trying to see where it was in relation to the CBD.

 

As you can see, its location is not convienient or close to the CBD or it's adjacent residential 'hoods.  so I pray this doesn't stall any street level retail that the city or private developers attempt to bring to Towercity, Galleria or those surrounding streets.

If the project is successful, it may help development in the CBD. At least some of these national retailers believe that they can make a buck in Cleveland's inner city.  Maybe it will cause others who would be more appropriate for downtown to take notice of downtown's potential.  Quite frankly, Steelyard's tenants are not ones that would fit well in the WHD.  So, I'm not shedding a tear that they are locating next to the mills. 

Help me understand somethings here:

 

Will Cleveland get any portion of the sales taxes that generated by this development?

 

How is the property tax affected by this reuse?

 

 

Quite frankly, Steelyard's tenants are not ones that would fit well in the WHD. So, I'm not shedding a tear that they are locating next to the mills.

 

Circuit city and Target could be located anywhere downtown.  People in the flats and the WHD buy electronics.  Target would be cool near CSU or in the galleria.

I think that the CBD is at least a decade away from beginning to see the Targets and Circuit City's of the world. 

As you can see, its location is not convienient or close to the CBD or it's adjacent residential 'hoods.  so I pray this doesn't stall any street level retail that the city or private developers attempt to bring to Towercity, Galleria or those surrounding streets.

 

When I first checked out those maps, I was struck by how close and convenient it is to Downtown and the inner-city neighborhoods!  I mean, we're not talking walking distance, but how many people actually walk to Target or Home Depot anyways???  People get in their trucks and minivans and load those puppies up with cheap wholesale goods! 

 

On the subject, we're assuming that this could have the potential of making some of these inner-city neighborhoods more marketable from a  residential standpoint.  Commercial will be hurt nearby, no doubt about it, but nearby residential could see increased values because of the close proximity to a shopping center. 

 

My question involves the likelihood of Downtown residents to shop here.  There are a few 'hoods in Cleveland that actually enable their residents to live car-free and Downtown/Near West Side are the premier ones.  However, I feel that pretty much every Downtown resident still owns a car!  Is this an errant assumption?  These folks will definitely drive 5 minutes down the freeway for cheaper goods and it could definitely affect DT retail as well as the neighborhood stuff directly adjacent to the project.

 

A final comment is that there are tens of thousands of DT employees that drive in to work and drive out at 5:00, spending maybe a little money on lunch during the day.  They'll do their shopping at the megamalls out in Beachwood or Solon or Westlake or Independence, because they don't have options in the city.  But, if they can stop somewhere on their way out of Cleveland, it's possible that Cleveland can capture the sales tax from these suburban shoppers, not just those from the City of Cleveland...just another positive perspective.

let me repeat:

 

Help me understand somethings here:

 

Will Cleveland get any portion of the sales taxes that generated by this development?

 

How is the property tax affected by this reuse (compared to its old use)?

Anyone else hear an echo...echo...

 

According to the City's GIS server, the site is 1752.94 acres

According to the County Auditor's site, property taxes due to the City of Cleveland last year were $10,912.76

The County's "assessed value" in 2004 was $143,780, but the "market value" was $410,800 (as to what the difference is, I haven't a clue...)

 

Unfortunately, the latest transfer, from ISG to Steel Yard Commons, LLC recorded no sale price...which may mean that there was no sale of land and thus no tax revenue from the sale???

 

The entire property sits within the City of Cleveland, so all city tax revenues will go to Cleveland.

 

I wish I knew more about projected revenues versus what the site has produced historically, but I couldn't find anything!

 

Tax revenues will go WAY up with this development, as long as its not abated.  The site isn't the entire 1752.94 acres, its a fraction of that.  The city will get a portion of the sales taxes, I think, and definitely the property taxes and income taxes.  Regardless of what it does to neighborhood retail and wages, this will be a big cash cow for the city.

 

Market value is the county's estimate of what the building is worth, although it is usually significatnly lower than the real market value.  Assessed value is what the county charges its millage on to figure a tax bill.  Its one third of market value.

 

If there was a transfer, there was a sale.  Sometimes these things aren't on the recorded documents, though, if there is no mortgage, for example.

Thanks X!  I knew somebody would be able to make sense of those numbers I put up there!  And yes, 1752 is a lot of acres...but those diagrams do show the plans taking up a huge portion of the site.  What are we thinking...half?  two-thirds?  And what of the remainder of the site?  Future development?  Public open space?  The City is getting a lot of shit for their approach to this project, so perhaps they can take advantage of the "sweethearting" that seems to have occurred and get their developer friends to do something in the best interest of the community with the remainder...

the diagrams are worth throwing up at this point, eh?:

 

MGD, its a small fraction.  I don't remember the acreage, but the 1700 acres must be all of ISG's land.  640 acres is a square mile, after all, so its the better part of the industrial valley-2 1/2 square miles.  The rest of the land is still ISG's.

hmmm...my mistake, I guess!  I clicked on the property on the City's property site and that's what came up, though it was unclear where the boundaries were...

 

And I'm pretty sure that those city labels in the first map there are incorrect.  I don't think Newburgh Heights and Cuyahoga Heights come up that far north...

From the 7/24/05 PD:

 

 

Wal-Mart fight not over for band of adversaries

Sunday, July 24, 2005

Olivera Perkins

Plain Dealer Reporter

 

The two men searched until they found T-shirts in just the right shade of blue - Wal-Mart blue.

 

They sliced the shirts in front to resemble smocks worn by Wal-Mart workers. Then they pinned on frowning-face "Wal-Not" buttons.

 

The men - part of a diverse coalition launching grass-roots efforts to stop Wal-Mart's expansion into Cleveland - were ready for the June opening of Mayor Jane Campbell's campaign headquarters in the Galleria at Erieview.

 

Read More...

 

From the 7/26/05 PD:

 

 

Commons will bring to life history of steel

Tuesday, July 26, 2005

Tom Breckenridge

Plain Dealer Reporter

 

The brawny, blue-collar history of steel is likely to be a part of the retail and restaurant mix at the planned Steelyard Commons shopping center in Cleveland.

 

Developer First Interstate Development Co. Ltd. of Lyndhurst says it has moved an aging, red brick building close to the center's proposed northern entrance, off Quigley Road. The building, with a distinctive peaked roof, will afford 600 square feet for displays about the steel industry that once thrummed on the sprawling site, below Jennings Freeway.

 

As proposed, the building would sit only a few strides from the planned extension of the Towpath Trail through Steelyard Commons. It would also be near a proposed stop on the Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad, which plans to push its rail line into downtown Cleveland.

 

Read More...

 

The Steelyard Commons Web site has launched:

 

http://www.steelyardcommons.com

 

I have to say, while I hate the idea of there being a Wal-Mart in the city, the site plan doesn't look half-bad -- for a big-box complex. I like that parking is in the interior of the complex, while the stores face out onto the roads, and a towpath extension is prominently featured (including a "comfort station" located, quite conveniently for the developers, right next to Home Depot. Yeah, that's pretty tacky.).

thanks for posting.

 

I saw the site, It not that bad.  The people in the surrounding area will have a place to shop.

 

I expected much worse.  I think the "powers that be" realize we're not going to sit back and just take anything, so they realize they must do this "right" from jump as the economic power of the near westside (ohio city, tremont & Detroit shoreway) can and will demand good service.  Its a quality of life issue.  If this goes well, housing will be off the hook in that area.

 

I hate the fact that there is no Red Line extension.

It would be nice if the West 117th/I-90 retail development is done in a similar manner. It's such a close walk from the Rapid station. On the other hand, Steelyard Commons is accessible only by car, for now (but will be accessible by bike path and Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad in the near future). The Rapid station, however, is there now and will go under the reconstructive knife starting next month.

 

KJP

^According to the site, Steelyard Commons will have eight bus stops throughout. Granted that's not as desirable as a Red Line extension but the developers could have easily said "we're not accomodating public transportation, period". With Tremont's Community Circulator and other bus lines going through, car-free residents won't be shut out.

 

As others have said - I'm not a fan of most big-box stores or Wal-Mart but I have to give First Interstate credit for trying to get it right. I really like the incorporation of the former factory elements and that they'll be brightly lit at night (a la the bridges in the Flats) and as a former resident of the area, the Quigley Road improvements will be a godsend for Tremont residents by diverting truck traffic away from West 14th Street. It's also going to raise property values for the area of Tremont south of I-490 which hasn't seen as much of the revitalization as the areas north.

^Not only that but it will help brighten up that rust belt area too.  Some flashy lights will be nice. 

I wonder how much they had to pay the small business owner from the area to say he is for the development. 

I wonder how much of wal-mart's bad image stems from the fact that they are based in, and grew up in red state america?

Does K-mart, or Target really have a dramatically different pay scale or benefits program for their employees?  When was the last time you heard someone complaining about a Target going up in their neighborhood?

^ Umm...put Target and Blue Ash in the search box and see what comes up.

I wonder how much of wal-mart's bad image stems from the fact that they are based in, and grew up in red state america?

Does K-mart, or Target really have a dramatically different pay scale or benefits program for their employees?  When was the last time you heard someone complaining about a Target going up in their neighborhood?

 

I highly doubt that is the reason why people don't like Walmart.  If that were so, then people also wouldn't like Cingular, Texas Instruments, Dell Computers, etc.

^According to the site, Steelyard Commons will have eight bus stops throughout. Granted that's not as desirable as a Red Line extension but the developers could have easily said "we're not accomodating public transportation, period". With Tremont's Community Circulator and other bus lines going through, car-free residents won't be shut out.

 

Thanks MayDay. I totally forgot about using the Tremont Circulator to access the area. I wonder what other bus routes would be routed through the site? Looks like the 23 and the 81 are likely candidates. The 81 comes from the West Boulevard Rapid station (via West Blvd., Denison, West 65th, Storer and Trowbridge). The 23 comes from Parmatown Mall (via Ridgewood, Stumph, Snow, Hauderman, Tiedeman, Biddulph, Williamston, Memphis, Ridge, West 73rd, and Clark). All three should give decent transit access to the site from near-West Side neighborhoods.

 

KJP

I wasn't wowed with what I saw in the site plan, but I am pleased to see that there are opportunities at the north and south end of the site that are marked by "outparcel" numbers (nearly 16 acres total).  now, these will probably just end up being gas stations, drive-thrus, etc., but there may be a chance for something more interesting to sprout up there (offices, housing, etc).  Another positive, as we know, is that they're accommodating an extension of the towpath trail and of the scenic railroad.  If this project brings those extensions any closer to reality, I'll find myself supporting this much more readily!

 

My constant question has been "why can't there be more of a mixture of uses incorporated into this plan?"  But then I wonder if people would really want to live so close to other industrial facilities and brownfields.  The housing on the other sides of the interstates surrounding the site will definitely see improved property values, but will this spur further housing development nearby if more brownfields can be redeveloped over the years to come?  I don't know how likely that is, since there's a hospital, cemetery and city park surrounding it to the west, south and north (respectively) and industrial facilities to the east.  It's just interesting to think about.

Speaking of the CVSR extension, how exactly are the developers supporting this project? The Web site just says something like, "We fully support the rail extension." Are they somehow involved financially, or in negotiating with CSX? It's all very vague.

From the Steelyard Commons site:

 

Part of the approximately six mile long planned Towpath Trail Extension, connecting the now northern terminus of the trail at old Harvard Avenue with the proposed Canal Basin Park, will wind its way through Steelyard Commons. Engineered and constructed in accordance with the Cuyahoga County Engineer's standards, this portion of the Towpath Trail will be designed and constructed as part of the shopping center development cost. No public monies will be used in building the over 1.75 miles of towpath trail at Steelyard Commons. The towpath trail’s path through the shopping center will provide a continuous route with views to the industrial valley along the eastern property line and include a pedestrian tunnel under Steelyard Drive. In addition, a similar trail through the middle of the shopping center along the east side of Steelyard Drive will provide great access for Towpath users to the center’s amenities. The route along Steelyard Drive will pass by restaurants and connect via sidewalks to shops on both sides of the street, with convenient bike racks and directional signage located along the trail. As part of the master plan for the Towpath Trail, exhibits highlighting the role of the lower Cuyahoga River Valley in steel making and railroad transportation, the settlement patterns for neighborhoods, and the national environmental movement will be displayed.

 

A trail comfort station will also be constructed to provide a welcomed stop for those walking, hiking or biking the trail. The trail comfort station will have amenities including water, restrooms, vending machines, bicycle racks, and compressed air for bicycles.

 

When completed, the Towpath Trail will provide access to the more than 2 million users of the trail to connect with downtown Cleveland and the surrounding neighborhoods.

 

[end]

 

Impressive if you ask me!

Definitely, MGD, but I'm wondering about the supposed CVSR rail extension... Are they contributing money, design plans for the rail platform, what? Here's what the site says now:

 

Steelyard Commons supports plans to extend the 51-mile Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad, one of the longest and most scenic excursion railways in the country, to downtown Cleveland via the Otis Leed rail line. A planned railroad stop at Steelyard Commons will include a 400-500 foot rail platform. As part of a rail excursion to Cleveland, a special shopping/dining stop at Steelyard Commons and connection to the Towpath Trail and Steel Heritage Exhibit is proposed. Currently, more than 100,000 Clevelanders ride the Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad annually, with that number expecting to double when rail service is completed to downtown Cleveland.

"My constant question has been "why can't there be more of a mixture of uses incorporated into this plan?"  But then I wonder if people would really want to live so close to other industrial facilities and brownfields. "

 

If I understand correctly, the soil is so contaminated that standard brownfield remediation wouldn't even come close to making the site appropriate for residential use.

^furthermore, I don't know too many people who would like to live in between an active steel mill and a highway.  Its better to focus residential development in better areas.

my suspicions confirmed!

 

and yes, blinker, I too am anxious to see how much money Schneider puts towards these significant public improvements. 

 

Anyone read the article in Sunday's PD about the slow pace of Towpath Trail extension and how a Steelyard Commons TIF could help move it along?

 

http://www.cleveland.com/entertainment/plaindealer/steven_litt/index.ssf?/base/entertainment/112634517612790.xml&coll=2

And another (I don't really get the title, but it's about TIF financing that can help the Towpath Trail reach the Lakefront):

 

Steelyard financing OK coming?

Thursday, September 22, 2005

By TOM CORRIGAN

Brooklyn Sun Journal

 

CLEVELAND _ The $90 million, 127-acre retail complex dubbed Steelyard Commons still is on track.

 

On Monday, the city administration introduced the last piece of legislation needed to allow tax increment financing for the project.

 

Chief of staff to Mayor Jane Campbell, Chris Ronayne said developer Mitchell Schneider's First Interstate Properties Ltd., will not benefit directly from the tax funding.

 

Read More...