Groundbreaking is scheduled for Thursday.

Don't know what will come of this, but I'll just throw it out there. From the 9/29/05 PD:

 

 

Group critical of access to info on Steelyard project

Thursday, September 29, 2005

Sarah Hollander

Plain Dealer Reporter

 

A report released today by Policy Matters Ohio is critical of the Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Port Authority's handling of federal new-markets tax credits, specifically in relation to Cleveland's controversial Steelyard Commons shopping center project.

 

The report, titled "Steelyard Secrets," says the port authority hasn't provided enough public access to documents and to the process in general.

 

"The public doesn't really know what's happening and can't easily find out," said Zach Schiller, the organization's research director.

 

Read More...

this just in from www.cleveland.com:

 

...

 

Pedestrians and cyclists can finally look forward to a Canal Towpath Trail that leads to downtown Cleveland if City Council approves money for the project as expected on Monday.

 

Taxes from the controversial Steelyard Commons retail development, anchored by a Wal-Mart super center, will foot a large chunk of the bill.

 

Council's Economic and Community Development Committee earlier this week supported a plan to direct about $10.4 million in property taxes from Steelyard Commons for construction of the towpath trail into downtown.

Another $7.4 million in taxes will be set aside to support small businesses in the surrounding neighborhoods, including Old Brooklyn, Tremont and Slavic Village, over the next 20 years.

 

Council president Frank Jackson said he anticipates the full council will pass legislation approving the plan on Monday.

 

That means Cleveland should finally see the long-awaited completion of the six-mile stretch of the Towpath Trail north from Harvard Avenue to the proposed Canal Basin Park, under the Detroit-Superior (Veterans Memorial) Bridge.

I thought I'd bump this up and see if anyone had seen the article in the Free Times:

 

 

Study? What Study? : Leaders differ on need for Wal-Mart impact evaluation

By Charu Gupta

 

SHORTLY AFTER NEWS of the Steelyard Commons development hit the streets in spring 2004, there was talk of an economic impact study that would look at its effects on neighborhoods.

 

A few weeks ago, the city finally sent a contract, much altered in scope, to the organization that will conduct the study. The 16-month delay and change in focus have left many community development corporation (CDC) directors wondering, and conspiracy theories abound. Most allege a backscratching deal of sorts between Mayor Jane Campbell and Steelyard Commons developer Mitch Schneider.

 

Though neither community leaders nor city officials can fully explain why so much time has passed, the lag seems to have resulted from bureaucracy, miscommunication and conflicting ideologies.

 

Read More...

 

Here's a link to a video clip about the ajoining steel museum that will be incorporated into Steelyard Commons.

 

http://www.wkyc.com/video/player.aspx?aid=20632&bw=

 

They mention it's connection to the Towpath Trail and being able to reach the museum by rail. As disturbing as the idea of another WalMart/Home Depot super complex being plopped down anywhere is, I take an ounce of comfort that parking spaces aren't the only thing being considered. The proof will, of course, be in the results.

yes, it's nice to remember the past. 

though it would seem that the developers could have just as easily preserved one of the massively hulking buildings (smelters?) for some sort of creative adaptive re-use. 

 

then shoppers could have RELIVED the past through the sheer magnitude of the steel making process.  i, for one, consider myself lucky to have bicycled through one of those magnificently massive open structures.  afterwards i wanted nothing more than to tell the world that the foundation of america as we know it today was built upon cleveland steel.

 

now it's all been reduced to a museum the size of a three car garage.

 

the price to pay, i suppose, for dealing with the devil of capitalism.

now it's all been reduced to a museum the size of a three car garage.

 

I just hope that they are respectful and don't use vinyl siding. ;)

there are some pictures from this week on this flickr site:

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/69363536@N00/page2/

and an article from yesterday's PD:

 

Retail center to honor steel history

Tuesday, March 07, 2006

Tom Breckenridge

Plain Dealer Reporter

 

The history of steel will join the mix of retail at Steelyard Commons, the big-box shopping center being built in the Cuyahoga River's industrial valley.

 

Mittal Steel and the Ohio & Erie Canal Association announced Monday that they will pump $45,000 each into a proposed steel-heritage exhibit at the shopping center, scheduled to open in a year.

 

Plans call for a $215,000 exhibit featuring a small, red-brick "clock" house, where steelworkers started their shifts; a "bottle car," a rail car that moved molten steel; and other artifacts from steel making on the site.

 

Read More...

yep, don't put too much hope in the steel exhibit.  I used to work at the Western Reserve Hysterical Society, and I was in on meetings when the Steelyard folks brought over their plans.  Essentially they saved a tiny shed, and would like to put some pictures in it.  That's it.  We countered by pushing them to make it a larger structure, and include not only historical photos and exhibitry, but also to include space for student activities, a gallery where local artists and photographers could display their works that were inspired by the mills, and even a small outdoor performance space for living history reenactors to do performances for visitors.  They were taken aback, and it was clear that they not only had thought about doing anything of that scale, but that they really didn't intend on doing much more than just save the little building, move it off to a corner, and put up some old pictures.

 

I have more hope for an idea Tim Donovan at the Ohio and Erie Canal Corridor floated, to put a steel exhibit in a building near the Towpath and Zeleznik's Tavern.  The building he wanted to do this in had plenty of room for all sorts of exhibits and activity spaces.

 

and regarding the site as brownfield, steel mills are pretty dirty, but portions of those areas are often not; the worst culprits are around any former coke works, because of the chemicals used there, and the coke byproducts.  I don't think I'd want to live on a former steelworks site, but there are definitely "dirtier" industrial sites around.

 

 

What, if any, discussion was there of bring the huletts out of hibernation?  I know there was talk of them going a little further north on the trail...

from 2004 to 2006

here is stealyards as of march 9 2006

Welcome Rob!

Well, I can't speak for the Huletts, because when WRHS sat down with First Interstate about the "steel heritage center," that was never brought up.  The Hulett supporters wanted the surviving disassembled Huletts reassembled at a canal basin park.  Though actually, the Steelyard Commons site would be a good place, as there were Hulett Ore Unloaders there on the river, and even earlier, some brownhoist units that Otis Steel used when it was their mill (pre-Jones and Laughlin, who bought Otis Steel in 1942).  As much as the Huletts are indeed impressive, the sheer cost of reassembling them and maintaining them is going to be daunting.

 

Some preservationists were also upset with ISG/Mittal's recent demolition of one of their blast furnaces.  However, I took issue with them because while they were pushing for "someone" to save the blast furnace and preserve it, none of them seemed to have any idea how much it would cost.  Their view was just to save it and not worry ... but I worried, so I called Sloss Furnaces in Birmingham and talked with their curator about how expensive it was to save and maintain the furnace, even as an inoperable hunk of metal.  He also clued me in to the liability costs, the costs of making it accessible to all visitors, etc.  It would have cost upwards of $5+ million dollars just to stabilize the blast furnace, millions more to make it accessible, and upwards of a million a year to maintain it, paint it, etc.  While I appreciate industrial archaelogy, who can afford that nowadays?  The City of Cleveland?  What private group?  And until it's made safe, who would have been responsible for liability if someone would have decided to climb the fence and go exploring and gotten injured?  I know plenty of urban archealogy fans who have explored those mills at night when they first closed ... as much as I would have LOVED to have seen a blast furnace preserved and turned into an interpretive center, it just isn't economically feasible at this time, and in this city.

 

And besides, a blast furnace not operating is just a big hunk of metal.  It's no longer alive.  Seeing a steel mill in full operation is like riding in a steam locomotive ... it's worlds apart from just seeing a static old locomotive sitting dead in a park.

 

 

thanks for your insights redbeard.  just out of curiosity, do you know of any blast furnaces that have been preserved?  i thought bethlehem, pa was attempting to preserver theirs for a casino, which i suppose provides the kind of $$ you are talking about.

as one of the urban archeologists that explored the mill (in the dark) it certainly was an amazingly massive space.  as public art, it  would be inspiring to see just the outline of the footprint of one of the buildings in order to appreciate it's scale and function.  how do  you suppose the story of steelmaking is best told at an interpretive center??

well, aside from Sloss Furnace in Alabama, I don't know of any preserved blast furnaces open to the public in the US, though there are a few around that people are trying to save.  The trouble is the sheer cost ... when they first announced a museum initiative in Bethlehem (the "Bethlehem Works Project") I was there at an industrial museum conference, and we asked the question how much it would cost to save the blast furnaces, and were told $6 million.  That's an awful lot of money ... I love the steel industry and the history of the industry, but that's money that might be better served in other ways.  And while they're impressive structures, I don't know how much you can learn from a big dead structure.  Interpretive centers can give you a lot of information both in text, images, and a/v, but it's just so darned hard to capture the sheer feeling of being in a mill.  I've toured about a dozen mills in operation, and they're a spectacle that defies description, or even Hollywood hyperbole.  When I was at WRHS and we were working on ideas for a steel mill exhibit for the now-dead Crawford Museum of Transportation and Industry, we did bring in some Hollywood folks to see the charging of the BOF at then-LTV Steel, in hopes that we could make a 3-D large-format movie of the process.  They were blown away, and even wondered if they could truly capture the whole spectacle on film.

 

I'd like to see a few preserved for posterity, but the price is so daunting. 

 

Just a photo update from April 8... not much new to report other than a retention pond:

 

I just drove on the Jennings Freeway not more than a half-hour ago. I see that ODOT has started work on the Quigley Road Connector, including the new traffic circle at the south end of West 14th Street.

if all are true to their word and can bring the valley train up to steelyard, then i think its great. shhh! stealth commuter rail, don't ya love it?

 

as far as preserving industrial artifacts, it need not be so expensive. no need for the public to crawl around on a blast furnance, but at the very least it could have could have been moved over there for display and fenced off? or just fenced it off where it stood and let it fall to ruin? the bf stood for so long it would have stood on its own where it was quite a while longer i'd imagine. i dk but its a shame to lose everything.

 

the before/after shots of that ltv site are just sad, only because its like it never was. surely more of all those facilities could have been kept for a more impressive museum instead of an ultra-mini museum in a strip mall? i guess there is just no way to have a total sucess and make everyone happy for every angle on this kind of project.

 

 

Any updates for an out of towner?

On Friday I noticed cranes working on the pilings for what I believe is the Target location, and there was some significant curb work completed on the southern end.

There is an updated lease plan that shows confirmed and still proposed tenants and there locations here:

http://www.steelyardcommons.com/pdf/syc-p21%20Goodman%20Logos%20120105.pdf

hmmm...is that new?  Maybe I'm just not noticing the subtle differences...

 

The more I look at the site plan, the more disappointed I get with the lack of inspired design from an urban design or architecture standpoint.  I think this really could've been a chance for Cleveland to have a mixed-use "new-urban village" within its borders...one that could accommodate office and residential uses in addition to the big boxes.  I'm seeing something that is devoid of any signs of creative motivation, though.  something that looks to be about 10-15 years behind the curve.

 

I'll post an example of what I think is a good use of a very similar space a little later on...

Its suburb-fabulous!

Is Steelyard Commons going to look as good as that P.O.S. that Garfield Heights built on the landfill?  How fun will it be to drive across the Valley View Bridge and see nothing but Wal Marts across the Cuyahoga Valley.  Cleveland must really be hitting the big-time now (sarcasm)!

 

I don't get it.  No one has moved to Northeast Ohio in 30 years, so it doesn't make sense to build ANYTHING new, least of all insipid crap architecture.

^Your right...I would rather have a closed down steel mill there.

^It's the "we'll take whatever crumbs we can get" attitude that continues to ruin Cleveland.  You won't get better if you don't demand it. 

 

 

^ OTOH, this is one of the few new developments that hasn't asked for major subsidies.  the developer is taking the risk and has lined up what makes market sense today.  and it is incorporating the towpath, cvsr, and innovative water runoff techniques. 

 

i agree, that the easiest development is not usually the best.  if cleveland could agree on what should be built and what the city should look like in 30 years, then they could support projects with public dollars that fit the plan.  good luck getting this to happen on any major scale.  there seems to be a big divide between established residents/businesses that are used to losing, doing things the 'old' way, etc.  what we need is an influx of new residents of all ages that understand what it feels like to 'win' and be part of a successful city/region - not necessarily a growing, sprawling region. 

 

otherwise, at least one brownfield is being turned to some productive use and the towpath is that much closer to the lake.

^ OTOH, this is one of the few new developments that hasn't asked for major subsidies.  the developer is taking the risk and has lined up what makes market sense today.  and it is incorporating the towpath, cvsr, and innovative water runoff techniques. 

 

i agree, that the easiest development is not usually the best.  if cleveland could agree on what should be built and what the city should look like in 30 years, then they could support projects with public dollars that fit the plan.  good luck getting this to happen on any major scale.  there seems to be a big divide between established residents/businesses that are used to losing, doing things the 'old' way, etc.  what we need is an influx of new residents of all ages that understand what it feels like to 'win' and be part of a successful city/region - not necessarily a growing, sprawling region. 

 

otherwise, at least one brownfield is being turned to some productive use and the towpath is that much closer to the lake.

 

thank you, i will be a likely shopper at (syc)

On the other hand, urbanlife, you're not going to get people migrating to Cleveland from successful regions if they see a metropolis that operates in such a backward fashion.  Building a big box Wal Mart one mile from downtown doesn't exactly scream "innovative", "unique", or "neighborhood-friendly". 

 

No city can adopt a suburban spatial arrangement and hope to compete.  With all the federal and state subsidies stacked against cities, it just isn't possible.  Cities have to maximize revenue, and using your land for parking and roadways isn't going to get the job done. 

 

 

^There is a developement very similar to this one 2 miles north of Chiccago off of 94.  All Big Box similar to this.

Chicago also has a viable, bona-fide functional downtown.  Cleveland does not.

My point was not that I think this is the way to go, but that the free market generally determines what gets built.  I'm also pleased that regional benefits have been worked in to this private developers plan.

 

Here is a brownfield 2 miles from downtown and a private developer put together a plan to turn it into some use without any assistance from the local government.  I also think that this location, a brownfield located next to major highways and a still functioning industrial area is the type of place for a strip mall if it has to exist.  Not church square at E79 or the strip mall at W25. 

 

I'd much rather see this (or any) type of retail downtown.  but the national chains have shown reluctance to embrace downtown and not much local money has poured in to fill in its place.  Cleveland has 8 or 10k living downtown.  Chicago has 150k. 

^You know DaninDC, I'm getting pretty tired of your relentlessly negative posts. From what I've been able to tell, you grew up in Brunstucky (or stay there when you return to Northeast Ohio to visit your parents), and you currently live in Washington, D.C. What do you know about downtown Cleveland?

 

That's one reason your posts add little value to our conversations. Another is that they always sound the same, shrill note: Cleveland isn't transit-oriented enough. Well, duh. We're working on it. Sorry it's not fast enough for you. You seem like an intelligent guy -- come up with a new point.

How are you going to rebuild a city if all you do is build suburbia?

 

My posts aren't negative so much as Cleveland and Clevelanders have forgotten what it means to be a city.  If you want shrill, I suggest listening to the cheerleaders everytime a new Project is announced.  Among things that were supposed to "save" Cleveland:

 

Tower City

Rock and Roll Hall of Fame

Gateway

Browns Stadium

Steelyard Commons

Euclid Corridor Project

Convention Center

 

Instead of encouraging investment in neighborhoods and local businesses, the city is encouraging people to get in their cars and drive to this remote location to shop.  Any guess on how poor people without cars are going to get there? 

 

You've been sold out, and you're too proud to admit it.

Just to add me .02, The Euclid Corridor project is still at least two years from completion. So we have yet to see what implications positive or negative it will have, thugh it looks as if it will have a positive impact even though its not a subway or light rail.

Just to add me .02, The Euclid Corridor project is still at least two years from completion. So we have yet to see what implications positive or negative it will have, thugh it looks as if it will have a positive impact even though its not a subway or light rail.

 

I understand.  This is a very frustrating topic for me.  Building a city isn't supposed to be hard--it's what came naturally for thousands of years.  You build a variety of housing types, within walking distance of retail, offices, and transit stops.  That's it.  Anything else is overkill, and probably going to have unintended consequences as a result.

 

For example, does anyone NOT think Wal Mart poses a challenge to local stores like Dave's Supermarkets, which already exist in underserved and poor neighborhoods?  What advantage does this "power center" give Cleveland over the municipalities that have sucked Cleveland dry?  Doesn't it just make Cleveland into another automobile-dominated suburb?

 

Until Cleveland stops looking for the magic bullet and focuses exclusively on building honest-to-God neighborhoods, its efforts are doomed to utter failure.  There are good examples of cities out there--Cleveland just likes to emulate the bad ones. 

^You know DaninDC, I'm getting pretty tired of your relentlessly negative posts. From what I've been able to tell, you grew up in Brunstucky (or stay there when you return to Northeast Ohio to visit your parents), and you currently live in Washington, D.C. What do you know about downtown Cleveland?

 

That's one reason your posts add little value to our conversations. Another is that they always sound the same, shrill note: Cleveland isn't transit-oriented enough. Well, duh. We're working on it. Sorry it's not fast enough for you. You seem like an intelligent guy -- come up with a new point.

 

I have to agree with Blinky.  And Dan I'm not sure how old you are (I estimate under 25), but you live in Metro DC and let me tell you until just recently (say the last 5-7 years), DC was further down the rung in popularity and ingenuity than Cleveland.  and remember one thing....if not for the federal government...DC would a giant depressed ghetto!  I remember when you could pick up a hooker (male or female) right in front of the white house.  I remember when you couldn't walk around DuPont circle, until "the queens" moved into the area.

 

I have to travel to DC frequently and let me tell you until the metro was up...dc was hell and harder to get around than Cleveland was at the same period of time.

 

I feel your pain and we all understand how you would like to see the metro Cleveland area return to a top tier city.  but your post all sound like a "know it all" and that you lived in DC forever and its so this..that...or the other compared to Cleveland.

 

Constructive criticism are welcome...but damn man, come on!

Among things that were supposed to "save" Cleveland:

 

Tower City

Rock and Roll Hall of Fame

Gateway

Browns Stadium

Steelyard Commons

Euclid Corridor Project

Convention Center

 

 

I'll grant you that Tower City, the Rock Hall and Gateway were sold in part to "save" the city. Browns Stadium, I

feel, was built on because Cleveland cannot emotionally function without football-I don't believe anyone made any pretense that a new stadium will save the city, although efforts to put a dome on it (which have reappeared once again)to make it more multi-use might have extended the rationale for construction beyond pure football fanaticism. I doubt you will find anyone who seriously considers anything about Steelyard Commons city saving in the least. It will only provide jobs in the downtown area to those looking for temporary employment or with few other projects. Such is the nature of this kind of retail. Do I wish it were here? No. But whatever benefits this project will provide the city, no one will seriously say it will save anything. The Euclid Corridor has been and probably will continue to be meet with skepticism. True rail or street car rail would surely have added value to University Circle and Downtown that these buses will probably never add, as this the transportation arm of an economic redevelopment project along Euclid. But I think this was fairly sold as one element to fixing the city's economic and real estate value woes. Not what I wanted, but I believe it will make a positive contribution. How much of a contribution-probably not what was promised, but what ever fully delivers on a promise in these types of projects? Everything is just one step forward, a continuation of previous work done. Which leads me to the convention center rehab or new construction (whichever it might end up being). The city has already placed a huge investment in tourism and making the city "visable" to the rest of the country and the world. Again, not everything that has been promised has been delivered 100%, but tourism is an undeniable element to Cleveland that had not previously existed. The Convention Center rehab/construction will only extend the idea to visitors that business and trade can find a viable home in Cleveland. and the hospitality industries that have sprung up to service the tourism industry will service a growing convention center clientele (presuming it hapens.)

 

Dan, I think your major bone of contention is that we, the citizens, happily accept half measures and blindly go bounding forth that there will be a single watershed project that will fix all of the city's ills. I would say there was a time where it seemed to be true. The early and mid-nineties felt like a time when large civic projects were predicated on the notion that "if only this were done, everything would be better." Gateway especially always felt that way to me. But I believe we, as citizens, are now better prepared to greet those types of miracle cure assertions with the healthy skepticism each and every civic project deserves. Communication and awareness are improving and we now better realize the importance of public imput into these projects. In fact, we demand it.

 

For me personally, keep arguing with us Dan. Yeah, you come off gloomy, but it helps make sure everyone's arguments are that much sharper and we keep informed.

DC was further down the rung in popularity and ingenuity than Cleveland. 

 

And who do you think has been here the past 5 years to witness those changes in DC?  It seems to me, however, that Clevelanders get overly defensive when they encounter a perceived slight.  Let's face it:  the status quo isn't working for Cleveland, and has never worked for Cleveland.  Why would it work in the future?  Has anyone seen Garfield Mall since Garfield Heights built that crapbox on top of the landfill?  Why should Cleveland expect anything different?

 

To claim that you want to open a Wal Mart in the city so poor people can have a place to shop in-town is disingenuous if it's going to be damn near impossible to get there on the bus.  Who does this really help?  MTS, I think your claim that DC is doing well only because of the federal presence is disingenuous as well.  You correctly noted that DC fell on incredibly hard times for a while.  I might have missed something, but I think the federal government was still here during the 70s, 80s and 90s.

 

Maybe the difference between a city that's rebounding (DC) and one that keeps falling behind (Cleveland) is the attitude.  MTS seems to think that popularity and ingenuity are of significance.  I tend to place more weight on education, jobs, and quality of life.  Don't let a sourpuss like me discourage Clevelanders from pursuing their goal of being a "popular" city, though....  How building a Wal Mart does that, I'm not sure, but I bet someone reading this has an explanation.

 

CornerCurve, I'm happy to be of assistance.  I don't post solely to piss people off, but you hit the nail on the head.  Blindly adopting the latest fad does nothing to provide economic stability.  I mean, hell, Chicago has a ferris wheel on their lakefront.  When does Cleveland get one of those?  I jest, but I do fear anyone who isn't the least bit skeptical about things like this.

 

 

DC was further down the rung in popularity and ingenuity than Cleveland. 

 

And who do you think has been here the past 5 years to witness those changes in DC?  It seems to me, however, that Clevelanders get overly defensive when they encounter a perceived slight.  Let's face it:  the status quo isn't working for Cleveland, and has never worked for Cleveland.  Why would it work in the future?  Has anyone seen Garfield Mall since Garfield Heights built that crapbox on top of the landfill?  Why should Cleveland expect anything different?

 

To claim that you want to open a Wal Mart in the city so poor people can have a place to shop in-town is disingenuous if it's going to be damn near impossible to get there on the bus.  Who does this really help?  MTS, I think your claim that DC is doing well only because of the federal presence is disingenuous as well.  You correctly noted that DC fell on incredibly hard times for a while.  I might have missed something, but I think the federal government was still here during the 70s, 80s and 90s.

 

Maybe the difference between a city that's rebounding (DC) and one that keeps falling behind (Cleveland) is the attitude.  MTS seems to think that popularity and ingenuity are of significance.  I tend to place more weight on education, jobs, and quality of life.  Don't let a sourpuss like me discourage Clevelanders from pursuing their goal of being a "popular" city, though....  How building a Wal Mart does that, I'm not sure, but I bet someone reading this has an explanation.

 

 

Dan ... you're missing the point.

 

What are you doing RIGHT NOW to help change Cleveland?

MTS, you lost me.  What point am I missing?

 

 

 

 

 

Maybe if you'd stop preach... err... b!tching to the choir for a second, you'd understand his point.

 

That's your problem Dan - it's non-stop negativity directed at US, the people who live here and give a sh!t. You put words in our mouth, suggesting that we're all in favor of any new development, and that we don't offer any criticism thereof. What's worse is that almost all the things that you b!tch about are beyond our control. I'm sorry that I have a life and a job and I don't throw myself in front of the earthmovers at Steelyard but maybe that's something you have time for. I'm sorry I don't camp out at City Hall and throw a hissy fit every time a developer doesn't build a project on a rail line that puts 100K people in a square mile. I'm really sorry I don't take a bus down to Bentonville, Arkansas and raise some hell :roll:

 

When a proposal comes up that actually embodies quality design and makes good use of its site (and yes, there are a few here and there - Steelyard isn't one of them) we don't hear jack squat from you. It's only when you find something negative to b!tch about that you decide to participate and if THAT isn't the typical "Cleveland" mentality, I don't know what is. If that's the attitude I missed out on by not growing up here, you make me glad that I'm not a native. If you could possibly squeeze a drop of positive commentary once in a blue moon - just a drop, people wouldn't think of you as such a Debbie Downer. No one is asking for you to pick up pom-poms, but if you'd listen to yourself - you'd see why I suggested that you need some fiber in your diet. Contrarian viewpoints are fine - the non-stop negativity isn't.

 

NO one here is saying "oh goody, Wal-Mart is setting up shop in the city limits". You certainly suggested it, but again - that's you putting words in our collective mouth. Personally, I loathe Wal-Mart - I've never shopped there and I never will. However, it's also disingenuous to think that some Clevelanders, even the poor ones - haven't already been shopping at Wal-Mart for years. They just so happen to do it outside of the city limits (North Olmsted, etc.) - people can be in poverty yet own a car, after all. Daves and other locally owned shops have been facing this challenge long before Steelyard Commons came into the picture and I really think they'll be fine. I know too many people who go out of their way to support local shops - sure, some might be affected but that's how business is EVERYwhere. Small businesses are struggling nationwide - the good ones find their niche and strive.

 

As far as Steelyard Commons itself - again, I seriously doubt that anyone here looks at the plans and says "wow what a great, dense, mixed-use project!". We know that it's a mostly auto-centric setup. However, what part of "unsuitable for residential use" did you forget? The site wasn't just used for garden-variety manufacturing - it's too contaminated with heavy metals (and god knows what else) to be used for anything else. Oh well, it's contaminated - let's build a dense neighborhood there!?!? Give me a break. Of course we're skeptical - I'm skeptical about ANY big-box store development but am I supposed to march over to Beachwood and protest outside First Interstate's offices?

 

As MTS said - what are you doing RIGHT NOW to help change Cleveland?

Fair points, MayDay. 

 

Very simply, my philosophy is the old "squeaky wheel gets the grease" cliche.  Wolstein wants to build a mixed-use neighborhood in the Flats?  Good for him.  The City should pull out the stops to see it to fruition.  The things that need fixing are the ones that need attention the most.  The things that ain't broke don't need fixing.

 

Cleveland is a very frustrating place, because it never capitalizes on its own potential.  If Cleveland were a Charlotte or a Phoenix that was never a "real" city, then I might not be so upset.  Cleveland was once one of the most important, thriving, and wealthiest cities in the U.S., and the attitude that the City takes is "We'll take whatever we can get."

 

The citizens of Cleveland have a responsibility to be outraged when this suburban Wal Mart bullshit is foisted on downtown.  The citizens have a responsibility to demand that retail be located in neighborhoods, where it's actually accessible, instead of creating more auto-dependency.  The citizens have a right to demand that local businesses have a chance to compete under the same (or better) conditions as the global businesses. 

 

It just seems that Cleveland only knows gimmicks.  It doesn't know how to function as a city anymore, which is why I, and people like me, continue to leave in droves.  As much as I would love to be able to move back to Cleveland, the future looks bleak.  So yes, what I have done to help Cleveland is to leave.  That way, I don't piss on anyone's parade when they want to build an urban theme park instead of a healthy, thriving, functioning city. 

 

I'd like to think that one day, I can come back to Cleveland and invest my money in recreating neighborhoods.  I want to buy housing and storefronts, and rebuild the urban fabric that the powers-that-be seem so intent on destroying.  I'm not in a position to do that now, so all I can do is bitch, and maybe point out some things that actually do work.  After all, Cleveland is only going to be as good as it demands to be.  Taking a Wal Mart on the chin doesn't really establish a reputation as demanding a high-quality urban environment.  It sets a terrible precedent for the future, and something needs to be done to make sure a disaster like this doesn't happen again. 

 

I can't recall anytime I've explicitly put down the people of Cleveland, or anyone on this forum.  This isn't personal, so if you take it that way, that's your own problem.  I just want better for my hometown, apparently better than many of the current residents are willing to tolerate.  It's time to stop with the time-honored Cleveland excuses and let people know how to turn Cleveland around permanently.

 

And if that makes anyone upset or uncomfortable, it means you're thinking.

Oh, hi there!  I'm just going to pick up from where I left off yesterday...

 

The following is from an article in Planning magazine (http://planning.org/planning/nonmember/default1.htm) on how to impact trip-generation figures with sound development.  Essentially, it's about TOD and several projects nationwide that are doing it right.  The one I'm posting below is in Atlanta, on the site of a closed STEEL MILL!!!  Now, I don't know what's what with contamination and types of steel production processes and what not, but this caught my attention because it sounds similar in many ways to our very own Steelyard Commons.  (Note the shape, size, and physical constraints of the site) Except for the fact that SYC is aiming low (by me), where Atlantic Station is shooting the moon. 

 

I would say that this is possible in Atlanta because they have a growing economy, while ours is shrinking, which enables them to build projects like this.  But then I remember that it is one of my core beliefs that if we build unique, progressive, mixed-use projects befitting our urban context, then we'll be able to recapture our market advantage as it pertains to housing, business, retail, and industrial location.  If not in the broader international context, at least within our own region.  So, I say, build this here and screw the risk-averse amongst us!

 

 

 

Thanks for sharing that, MGD.  I'm not sure I agree that a growing economy like Denver's is necessary in order to build smartly.  In fact, big box development is actually more expensive than dense, urban development, because there is typically less rent per acre being paid by the occupants, and the parking is subsidized.  If developers had their way, they would build rowhouses and apartments with street-level retail.  Ya know, like they used to do. 

 

This Steelyard Commons thing just makes me so mad.  The way to re-retail the city is to promote small neighborhood businesses where money will be reinvested in the community--not a singular colossal behemoth that is going to funnel people's hard-earned cash to Arkansas. 

 

From Higbee's on Public Square and May Company and Halle's on Euclid to Wal Mart in the Valley.  This is progress??? 

 

 

I'm not sure I agree that a growing economy like Denver's is necessary in order to build smartly. 

 

That was kind of my point in the second half of that paragraph...that we don't need a growing economy to justify this or make it work.  If anything, we need it more and have a stronger argument for progressive development than they do!

 

And don't think that you're the only one po'd about this project.  If you recall, this received front page coverage in the PD and there was a lot of disagreement within City Hall, let alone amongst the neighborhood residents and businesses who this will be impacting most directly.  I think the debate has tapered off because there's a feeling that nothing can really be done to stop it at this point.  This is where efforts like Re$tore Cleveland and Got it in the Neighborhood are so important.  People who are committed to buying locally produced and sold goods or to buying from local proprietors need to continue to push their agenda with their feet and dollars and through advocacy efforts like these. 

Oh, hi there!  I'm just going to pick up from where I left off yesterday...

 

The following is from an article in Planning magazine (http://planning.org/planning/nonmember/default1.htm) on how to impact trip-generation figures with sound development.  Essentially, it's about TOD and several projects nationwide that are doing it right.  The one I'm posting below is in Denver, on the site of a closed STEEL MILL!!!  Now, I don't know what's what with contamination and types of steel production processes and what not, but this caught my attention because it sounds similar in many ways to our very own Steelyard Commons.  (Note the shape, size, and physical constraints of the site) Except for the fact that SYC is aiming low (by me), where Atlantic Station is shooting the moon. 

 

I would say that this is possible in Denver because they have a growing economy, while ours is shrinking, which enables them to build projects like this.  But then I remember that it is one of my core beliefs that if we build unique, progressive, mixed-use projects befitting our urban context, then we'll be able to recapture our market advantage as it pertains to housing, business, retail, and industrial location.  If not in the broader international context, at least within our own region.  So, I say, build this here and screw the risk-averse amongst us!

 

 

This is atlantic station in Atlanta not Denver.  Actually advertising is a bitch.

 

I've been to atlantic station about 15 times for various reason.  For any of you who havent been, its crocker park w/underground parking.

 

Some coworkers in Atlanta and I were wondering what the units looked like.  the two sales executive stated, "why look...nobody is buying these overpriced boxes...its not like Atlanta is the north...people don't walk down here.  The drive in eat and leave. these units arent even selling, the developer most likely will lose money!"

 

Now to have your sales executive say that is a shame & he should be fired, but it goes with the whole idea that the south is flattened out and they definitely do not want to live with out cars.  Also, ironic is (while chatting) with the the sales exec. he stated he loved wished atlanta had some cool buildings like stonebridge and the pinnacle as ATL is a place for "pre constructed unispiring" shoe boxes for apartments.  He also mentioned that the city is way overbuilt for its size and that the (IIRC) last 4 developments built all have low occupancy.

 

This project is uninspiring and a horrible attempt to create a downtown in Atlantas west midtown area as atlanta downtown is 10 worse than clevelands and they openly state that their downtown is dead and dangerous (there are even articles saying citizens should be allowed to carry guns to defend themselves in DT Atlanta).  Atlanta city is smaller (approx. 390k) and shrinking faster than cleveland, so examples like this aren't good for comparison.  In addition, atlanta doesn't have the diverse ethnic neibhborhoods in the city that we do. 

 

There is no public transportation directly to this development...there is a "shuttle" that runs (if it runs) from the marta station to the development.  so I dont know how they can say its "accessible" to public transportation.  In cleveland terms it would be like getting of the train at at tower city then taking a shuttle bus to the West Side Market (via superior/Det-Sup. Bridge).

^Ha!  I can't believe I flubbed that!  Denver and Atlanta are basically the same, though... same climate, same racial composition, same elevation, etc... :wink: anyway, I'm changing my text in the above posts...

 

It's interesting to hear your response, though, MTS because I've obviously never been there.  My impressions are based solely on the images and the caption.  It just looks like a more effective way to make use of a site (like SYC) so close to the urban core and with such great access and assets nearby.  I'm surprised to hear that it isn't doing well, but it likely has a lot more to do with the developers and the project itself than with the notion that people in Atlanta need to pack heat when walking around downtown.