Fair points, MayDay. 

 

Very simply, my philosophy is the old "squeaky wheel gets the grease" cliche.  Wolstein wants to build a mixed-use neighborhood in the Flats?  Good for him.  The City should pull out the stops to see it to fruition.  The things that need fixing are the ones that need attention the most.  The things that ain't broke don't need fixing.

 

Cleveland is a very frustrating place, because it never capitalizes on its own potential.  If Cleveland were a Charlotte or a Phoenix that was never a "real" city, then I might not be so upset.  Cleveland was once one of the most important, thriving, and wealthiest cities in the U.S., and the attitude that the City takes is "We'll take whatever we can get."

 

as Mayday stated...listen to what your saying.  What makes you think all greater clevelanders feel this way??  We want exciting network building progressive projects....we all dont view any new project as a "golden parachute".

 

 

The citizens of Cleveland have a responsibility to be outraged when this suburban Wal Mart bullshit is foisted on downtown.  The citizens have a responsibility to demand that retail be located in neighborhoods, where it's actually accessible, instead of creating more auto-dependency.  The citizens have a right to demand that local businesses have a chance to compete under the same (or better) conditions as the global businesses.

 

This project is auto centric and it does serve a community (quite a few) with a location that would go empty and vacant if nothing were done.  again, nobody likes it but we can no lobby to make it the best damn development to benefit all.

 

It just seems that Cleveland only knows gimmicks.  It doesn't know how to function as a city anymore, which is why I, and people like me, continue to leave in droves.  As much as I would love to be able to move back to Cleveland, the future looks bleak.  So yes, what I have done to help Cleveland is to leave.  That way, I don't piss on anyone's parade when they want to build an urban theme park instead of a healthy, thriving, functioning city.

 

Gimmicks???  Have you ever resided in Cleveland proper?  or are you a person from the burbs complaining about cleveland but having no real involvement in the city government and what it means for the entire region.  Mayor Jackson has confronted the regional issues and development issues buy bringing appointing people to his cabinet to improve the city AND THE REGIONS visability in those areas.  He can't correct 30 years of bullshit in 6 months.

 

I'd like to think that one day, I can come back to Cleveland and invest my money in recreating neighborhoods.  I want to buy housing and storefronts, and rebuild the urban fabric that the powers-that-be seem so intent on destroying.  I'm not in a position to do that now, so all I can do is bitch, and maybe point out some things that actually do work.  After all, Cleveland is only going to be as good as it demands to be.  Taking a Wal Mart on the chin doesn't really establish a reputation as demanding a high-quality urban environment.  It sets a terrible precedent for the future, and something needs to be done to make sure a disaster like this doesn't happen again. 

 

Anything you can do in DC you can do in Cleveland.  So to say you "moved away for x reason" is bullshit.  People like KJP are here trying to get people to think about how we can improve our city...not moving away and waiting for things to "supposedly" get better.  people who fight for the good of the community during bad times are the people who really care, not those that bitch...leave...suggest to other...but those that ACTIVELY get involved and champion other to do the same.

 

If you want better...come home...move to cleveland and be apart of the change....not bitching from afar!

 

Instead of putting down and finding flaws...which we already know...try giving some suggestiong on how to correct situations.  you only seem to point out the problem...yet never give a solution.  and in the real world...any manager knows that "finding a long term solution" is the key.

^Ha!  I can't believe I flubbed that!  Denver and Atlanta are basically the same, though... same climate, same racial composition, same elevation, etc... :wink: anyway, I'm changing my text in the above posts...

 

It's interesting to hear your response, though, MTS because I've obviously never been there.  My impressions are based solely on the images and the caption.  It just looks like a more effective way to make use of a site (like SYC) so close to the urban core and with such great access and assets nearby.  I'm surprised to hear that it isn't doing well, but it likely has a lot more to do with the developers and the project itself than with the notion that people in Atlanta need to pack heat when walking around downtown.

 

 

 

No this project is bad...its really tacky!  it has a dillards in it...should i say any more?!

 

I mean..it looks cute from the air, but my friends in ATL are all like...why live in teh city when we can live in the 'burbs.  They have no clue about urban living! 

Not true, MTS.  I'm an engineer who focuses largely on historic preservation.  There simply isn't enough work in Cleveland, and I don't care to design big box shopping centers.  I also don't want to have to chooose between owning a car and second-class citizenship if I live in the middle of the city.  It's actually more convenient and more affordable to live where I do now.  You can't reasonably expect ambitious people to want to wait 30 years for Cleveland to get its act together.

 

You claim that without SYC, the site would remain vacant.  What about the neighborhood storefronts that will remain vacant, and those that will become vacant as a result?  Do those count too?

 

Visibility isn't really the problem with Cleveland.  It's the basics that are the problem.  Quality housing stock, education, underretailing, transportation, and lack of jobs are fundamental issues that seem to go unaddressed from year to year.  These are things that no convention center or tourist trap can fix. 

 

 

 

 

Not true, MTS.  I'm an engineer who focuses largely on historic preservation.  There simply isn't enough work in Cleveland, and I don't care to design big box shopping centers.  I also don't want to have to chooose between owning a car and second-class citizenship if I live in the middle of the city.  It's actually more convenient and more affordable to live where I do now.  You can't reasonably expect ambitious people to want to wait 30 years for Cleveland to get its act together.

 

You claim that without SYC, the site would remain vacant.  What about the neighborhood storefronts that will remain vacant, and those that will become vacant as a result?  Do those count too?

 

Visibility isn't really the problem with Cleveland.  It's the basics that are the problem.  Quality housing stock, education, underretailing, transportation, and lack of jobs are fundamental issues that seem to go unaddressed from year to year.  These are things that no convention center or tourist trap can fix.

 

See you don't comprehend what i wrote.  nor did you answer my questions.

 

I stated jackson has (or currently filling) economic development, regionalism, cabinet positions to fix those things. 

 

And you come back with the same convention center bullshit that we all know is not a "fix all"....im thru entertaining your bullshit!

So, MTS, you would contend that Steelyard Commons is a one-time mistake that *everyone* recognizes but is being built anyway just to fill up the land?

 

I recognize that most posters on these boards are educated and enlightened.  In Cleveland, though, minds like ours are in a small minority. 

 

I've never lived in Cleveland proper (grew up 10 miles from downtown), but between visiting my father at work downtown, my brother living in the city, and my own travels into town, I know the city halfway decently.  Just because I live elsewhere, though, doesn't mean that I won't call a spade a spade.  You questioned my assertion of a gimmick-based redevelopment policy, but then got pissy when I mentioned the convention center debacle as an example.  I think it's just the old Clevelander mentality of not wanting to believe anything that contradicts or undermines whatever they already believe.  I could be mistaken, though.

 

I just don't understand how a lack of a clear vision and taking every crumb thrown its way is beneficial to Cleveland in the long-term.  Is there a plan?  It might behoove Mr. Jackson to make it known.  Otherwise, I can only assume he'll pursue the status quo that his predecessors did.

 

This isn't difficult stuff. 

Ok, I know some of you are exasperated by the tone of this discussion but it is an interesting one (if not valuable) so let's not kill it off out of frustration or make it too personal.

 

I certainly agree with Dan that you shouldn't have to be a resident of the city proper to have an opinion on this forum and Dan, I'm not bothered by your criticisms of these projects- I think they stoke great discussion (though I definitely disagree that this isn't difficult stuff).  But I also understand why some on the forum get irritated: many of them, like you, lived in other cities to enjoy the same urban amenities you do before they moved back to fight the good fight, so being told what they shouldn't put up with and what a real city looks like is probably not very constructive.

I know I am worse than Hitler, but I like Wal Mart, I always get my oil changed there.

Also, I like what I see about Steelyard Commons.  I REALLY like the fact that the special TIF is going to provide the money to finish the Towpath trail and canal basic park.

 

For some things I also like big box retail.  There is a place for it.

I currently live in Chicago about one mile from Wrigley Field.  I also live about 1 mile away from a Costco, 2 Targets, 4 Home Depots, and something like 6 Best Buys. Chicago is still able to keep its identity, while having these stores set up in former industrial sites mostly along the river and the freeway.

 

Steelyard Commons is not the most exiting thing happening in Cleveland, but I am happy it is being built where it is.

Unfortunately, there is very little retail in Cleveland that is competing with the retail that is going into SYC.  Certainly Dave's will be in competition with the grocery portion of the Walmart.  There are a few dying mom and pop hardware stores that will compete with the Home Depot.  Most of the business that SYC will be stealing will be from similar big box stores in the burbs, which incidentally have already killed most of Cleveland's retail strips.

 

The question isn't SYC vs neighborhood retail, because that neighborhood retail is already largely gone.  The question is how to rejuvenate neighborhood retail in an era of category killer stores, wherever they might be located.  It needs to be a question of regulation, taxation policies, incentives, niche analysis, and many other things I am sure.  But this question largely needs to be answered at a level beyond the municipal, because retail marketsheds extend beyond the municipal, and the advantages of national retail chains extend beyond even the regional.

^Looks like we have two issues here.  One is the very existence of big box retail in the city and the second is its design and transit accessibility.  But for real, no Ikea?

Unfortunately the days of the little neighborhood store is long gone. The mom&pop stores simply cannot compete as far as price point is concerned. They may be better located and have better personal service, but lets be honest-to 99.9% of us price is the guiding factor in our buying decisions. Retail has changed, their are just too many options these days. SYC is a good start. Other major cities are able to support big box retail close to their downtown areas-I think it will be a big success.

^ Accessibility can often trump price, however. How many of us go to the convenience store or drug store to buy some something that's less expensive at the grocery store, but we don't want to deal with getting in and out of the grocery store.

 

When Giant Eagle moves from just down the street from me in what is a walkable setting, to about a mile or two farther away that will require that I drive, I will be less likely to use it simply for the accessibility aspect. Price isn't always the driving factor (oops, bad pun).

Unfortunately the days of the little neighborhood store is long gone. The mom&pop stores simply cannot compete as far as price point is concerned. They may be better located and have better personal service, but lets be honest-to 99.9% of us price is the guiding factor in our buying decisions. Retail has changed, their are just too many options these days. SYC is a good start. Other major cities are able to support big box retail close to their downtown areas-I think it will be a big success.

 

I think that depends on the type of purchase that you are going to make. If he wants a coke, a consumer will be willing to spend an extra 25 cents and shop at the mom & pop.  If he is going to buy groceries for the next two weeks, the consumer is more likely to drive a little bit for a cheaper store.

The question isn't SYC vs neighborhood retail, because that neighborhood retail is already largely gone.  The question is how to rejuvenate neighborhood retail in an era of category killer stores, wherever they might be located.

 

Exactamente.

I agree (unless my wife has anything to say about it - then we will go drive a bit further then needed to buy something that is on sale, then purchase a whole bunch of that item)

 

I' am so very excited about this project. It's not just the planner in me that takes pleasure in seeing construction in the city. If I were not involved in planning, I would still be excited. Just think, I will never have to leave the city again for purchases. Between SYC and the Ryser project on West 117th (is there a name for that yet?), everything will be within five minutes of my house. No more suburban malls for me (except to take my kids to build-a-bear in Southpark Mall... for now, anyway). :clap:

Now, if they could just get an IKEA there.....

http://www.verybigdesign.com/ikea/

You said it for me, KJP.  We have a Home Depot in DC, but I much prefer to walk down to the neighborhood hardware store down the street.  I don't notice much, if any, difference in price. 

 

In my opinion, though, doesn't inviting "category killer" stores into the city undermine any (potential) efforts to restore neighborhood retail?  I strongly disagree that neighborhood retail is a thing of the past.  Even in Northeast Ohio, there are many successful neighborhood-oriented retailers.  Unfortunately, Cleveland seems intent to make sure those are all in the suburbs.

 

Other cities do have "big box" retail and it does succeed and coexist with local retailers.  In other cities, though, the big box stores front on sidewalks and are often accessible by public transportation.  On-site parking, if there is any, is often in a parking garage or underground.  SYC is a generic suburban spaceship plopped down onto an asphalt landing pad on the banks of the Cuyahoga.  Whoop dee do. 

 

And if you think the park aspect of the whole deal is great, think of how much more park there could be if there were less parking lot.  Surely, selling out to Wal Mart and Home Despot is not the only way to fund the park.

 

certainly it's not, but they're talking about $1 million per mile and this is money that they don't have right now.  The parks that this trail will connect to are substantial, but I don't know that anyone was proposing converting this space to park use.  The demo and remediation would have prohibited a public use like that from being feasible.  That said, I'll take the trail segment as a form of appeasement from First Interstate.  They're not ignorant to the fact that this project has sparked a ton of public debate and opposition and they've taken steps like this (whether you think they're sufficient or not) to do more than what is required of them.  Not that having a Towpath Trail component to their development won't add value to their project at the same time...

 

Aside from the suburban layout, there is one major aspect of this project that bothers me.  It has been touted by the City as a way to bring affordable retail into Cleveland, so that those less well-off can shop without having to schlep into the suburbs.  Why, then, is this center located in such a remote part of town?  Is First Interstate going to fund a new RTA route to the center connecting to the neighborhoods on the far East and far West sides?  Depending where you live, suburban locales might still be located closer to one's home.  How is SYC an improvement, then? 

 

 

 

Aside from the suburban layout, there is one major aspect of this project that bothers me.  It has been touted by the City as a way to bring affordable retail into Cleveland, so that those less well-off can shop without having to schlep into the suburbs.  Why, then, is this center located in such a remote part of town?  Is First Interstate going to fund a new RTA route to the center connecting to the neighborhoods on the far East and far West sides?  Depending where you live, suburban locales might still be located closer to one's home.  How is SYC an improvement, then? 

 

 

 

This developement is not designed to service every neighborhood in Cleveland.  It is pulling from residents in OC, Tremont, South Hills (Spring-Schaff).  Second of all, it is being built were it is being built because First Interstate is constructing the complex.  Cities don't build things, developers do.  RTA will probably develope a route here also.  Just like they did when South Park Mall was built and other shopping Centers in the area.  They develop routes to areas that many people travel to.   

Cities don't build things, developers do.

 

But cities enact the necessary rezoning and issue the building permits.  The City of Cleveland dropped the ball on this one.

 

And if you think that patrons of this center are only going to come from a handful of neighborhoods, you're sadly mistaken.  SYC would go bankrupt in a heartbeat if that were true. 

let's not forget syc did not appear out of nowhere either. the city tried, i dk how hard -- that is certainly debatable, to find industrial suitors for the property, but to no avail. they are lucky that the timing was right for big box retailers to be interested. a few years earlier and even the big boxes would not have been interested either.

 

now sure the city could have continued to hold the property indefinately, but they went with the bird in the hand.

 

i think what we really have to get over is not big box retail on some crummy isolated brownfield in the city, but a continued need to hold on to an industrial legacy that no longer exists. if we ever get a strong need for steel plants again, i am sure the reverse can just as easily happen and some spartan big box stores can be knocked out for new blast furnaces and rolling mills - heh.

 

ok, so maybe now that the "we are underserved for major retail" monkey is off the back, the city can move on to more urban pursuits? post-syc, helping guide the towpath from there up to the lake would be a nice place to start. promoting mixed use development downtown another. etc.

 

 

 

RTA has said it will extend both the #81 and the Tremont Circulator routes into SYC. That doesn't make it easier for those living on the east side of the river to reach it, though. Someday, when the Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad gets extended to Tower City, then it will become potentially more convenient to reach SYC -- depending how often CVSR runs its diesel rail car shuttle train.

 

Still, I think SYC is a huge missed opportunity to become a truly mixed use center. I would have loved to see business incubators and live-work lofts down there atop the stores, with residential scattered above other retailers. It could have been a special place. Instead, it's hardly distinguishable from other shopburbias.

Look at it this way: Big box stores are simple as pie to tear down. That old CVS/SavaLot at W. 65th and Franklin started coming down a few days ago, and it's almost history already. Steelyard Commons is at least a way to get the brownfield remediated and some money in the Towpath coffers. Then, when Wal-Mart and Best Buy become obsolete in 15 years, we can tear it all down and build something cooler! Think of it as site preparation for a mixed-use development to be built in 2020. ;)

^If only that was the way it worked in practice. 

Jeez, lighten up. Did you notice the smiley?

"Jeez, lighten up. Did you notice the smiley?"

 

This is Dan we're talking about.  :roll:

^If only that was the way it worked in practice. 

 

And why isn't that the way it works.  I have seen it happen over and over again. 

MayDay, I take buildings very seriously.  As if you haven't noticed. 

 

Ever see an empty Wal Mart, gotribe?  Those things don't get demo'd for free.  Unfortunately, windowless one-story CMU buildings aren't very attractive prospects for rehabilitation.  If demolishing buildings were always a piece of cake, there wouldn't be any empty buildings anywhere.

 

But you know, if you guys are cool with having a disposable city, that's your prerogative. 

 

 

 

Yes, that's exactly what we've been saying! :roll:

Still, I think SYC is a huge missed opportunity to become a truly mixed use center. I would have loved to see business incubators and live-work lofts down there atop the stores, with residential scattered above other retailers. It could have been a special place. Instead, it's hardly distinguishable from other shopburbias.

 

Mixed use is great, it's what we all hope for with every development. But Cleveland needs to forget who we are. And what we are is a steel town, complete with a dirty river, and smoke stacks and all the beauty that goes with that. Who wants to live within that. You would have to be a real hardcore urbanite to wake up to that every day. Cleveland needs to get out of it's comfort zone. There is a great quote that say's " If you continue to do the things you have always done-you will continue to get the things you have always got".

Imagine if you will...some 175 years ago, a vibrant river surrounded by a beautiful green valley. That valley is now the industrial flats. The perception of this city is one of industry. I mean what's the first thing a visitor sees when they fly into town-the first thing that greets them is a rusted out, smoke belching Ford plant. And as they roll down 71 they are greeted once again with more smoke stacks and brown fields. We can't escape it. In my vision I see a city one day that will reinvent itself, and do things that we havent done. To my thinking it can be a beautiful valley once again. Does SYC do that? No but it's a start, it's something other than another smoke stack. I don't think SYC will draw as much from the neighborhoods as it will draw more from those who live and work downtown everyday. And maybe one day the property right behind it will change from industry to a more livable envirement, and then the property behind that...and so on

The industry in the Flats isn't going anywhere anytime soon -- not when there's a navigable waterway with an international reach, railways and highways immediately available. What's wrong with industry anyway? We in Cleveland, in Ohio, and in America still need to be able to make things. When nations stop making things and depend on others to do it for them, as we're doing with China, Thailand, India etc. etc., a nation's world prominence weakens. Look at what happened to England in the early 20th Century. America was England's China back then.

 

I proposed the business incubators and live-work because we can't build a local economy on delivering pizzas to each other, and because drawing a major employer from another city is extremely difficult. The Standard Oils, TRWs and Office Maxs were all once small businesses started by local entrepenuers. We've gotten away from that. What better place to grow new business than in the Flats, with the aforementioned transportation access I mentioned earlier? If it were up to me, I would never have wanted even a mixed use center, shopping center or similar use where SYC is being built. It should be industry -- period.

 

We have many river valleys in Greater Cleveland (including the natural areas of the Cuyahoga above the industrial Flats). We can't lose industrial access to a navigable waterway -- a truly unique natural resource! As oil prices continue to rise, access to water-borne shipping will be even more important in the coming years. We should celebrate and cherish our industry, not pretend we're like everyone else. We have something special that folks in Youngstown, Warren, Pittsburgh, Allentown, Wheeling-Steubenville and many other cities would love to have back. If someone doesn't like our industrial settings, then they sure picked the wrong place to live.

^What better place? University Circle and vicinity. The hospitals will continue to grow and create jobs, and all the spin off companies working on bio-technology are excellent places to start. Healthcare is virtually recession proof because people are always sick. New bio-tech companies that can come up with new more economical ways to design build and distribute things like artificial limbs, and organs will be able to feed off a growing number of aging baby boomers and grow into the Standard oils and Office maxs of yesteryear. We can have some industry but lets not focus just on industry and remember to diversify. Remember relying on one type of industry is how the NEO economy got where it is today!

I agree. But not everyone is smart enough or educated enough to get a job in biotech or some of the other new-economy jobs (myself included!). Since a job is the best social program there is, how do we get our unemployed employed? We've lost a lot of the manufacturing jobs that gave a segment of the population a chance to be productive and earn good wages so they can afford to improve their education, or to give their kids a chance at a life that's better than what they had. Retailing jobs just don't cut it, least of all at places like WalMart and Target.

 

How many of us can say we have a greater standing of living than our parents (without going into debt hell!). Granted, many of you are still in your low- to mid-20s, so it's too soon to say. But many of us who are in our 30s and older are behind where our parents were at the same age. And a big reason for that is the good-paying manufacturing jobs just aren't here any more.

 

There are many reasons why we've not kept up our manufacturing prowess. But one of them is the lack of new entreprenurial start-ups and the support systems for them. The support systems include incubators (including inexpensive facilities, access to capital, expertise etc), training/continuing education, transportation, and so on.

 

I think one of the greatest opportunities for Greater Cleveland's economy is alternative energy. If eventually done on large scale, the Flats is the ideal place for it. Consider coal liquefaction -- it's a huge opportunity for us, given the proximity of coal fields to Cleveland, the rail linkages from the coal fields to the Flats and, once processed, can be shipped by boat elsewhere in the U.S. and world.

 

I don't know if I'm getting off track here, but I sense that I am. So I'll shut up now.

^I agree with you but thinking about the part about educated people... The people developing the new technology and the doctors treating will have to be smart and well educated. But if healthcare really blows up in this region think about all the receptionist, janitorial, security and other jobs that don't require much formal education or training. Those pay better than retail even if they aren't $60,000 a year jobs. But for our economy to transition to that quicker, the city and region need to flaunt what we've got here, which I believe is not done enough. Steelyard commons will provide jobs and income for the city and is not being too heavily publically subsidized so lets be thankful for that. As Cleveland starts to come back at first we'll have to take what developers will give us, but as demand grows we'll be able to pick and choose what we want built in the city and that will make developers step up to the plate and think out of the box and make Cleveland even more unique and exciting.

There is no better industry for making a middle class than manufacturing.

That said, manufacturing does not have to reside in dirty, pollution spewing factorys of yesteryear.  Hopefully with the brownfield land bank, and the University circle access/ opportunity corridor some new manufacturing jobs can come into the city.

 

As for SYC, again YEAH!  The remaining middle class in Cleveland can shop in Cleveland and use the taxes generated to help their city.

the land bank is the most important thing the city can do now.  clean up as many brownfields as possible so new and expanding companies can build in the city without having to wait for site demolition/cleanup or having to take the risks associated with it.

 

what goes on the former industrial sites?  most likely not housing as some of the sites are severely polluted, but light manufacturing, heavy manufacturing, biotech, whatever...

 

there has been talk of increasing funding, but i think that this has to happen on a grander scale soon. 

To help fund the land bank, I would put a TIF on all land-banked properties that are developed and sold/leased.  This wouldn't fund the land bank, but it would help it grow once it is off the ground.

But for our economy to transition to that quicker, the city and region need to flaunt what we've got here, which I believe is not done enough.

 

Flaunting isn't going to help if there isn't anything to back it up.  Cleveland is a fantastic city and has a ton of potential for improvement, but building Wal Marts and Home Depots damn near downtown isn't really the sign of a forward-thinking place.  In fact, it screams "backwater".  No PR campaign can overcome that.

 

^^I also agree that the land bank is one of the most important initiatives happening in the city right now.  As opposed to some of the new-economy companies that are starting to pop up around University Circle, I think the brownfield redevelopment program is something that could have more immediate impact on the city.  I think it totally flies under the radar of most people and it's potential impact is underestimated. But I believe it has real potential and can/should be part of a multi-pronged approach at strengthening the local economy.

You're right, the land bank can help the city more quickly than the new-bio-tech companies.

 

I wasn't talking about flaunting wal-marts and home depots but moreso the assets like Cleveland Clinic, all the new bio-tech startups and money they are getting, our close proximity to over half the US population and our infrastructure that once supported all the industry in the past that is still usable, you know things that would be well considered for companies and that make the city more unique among the others.

As much as I wish Steelyard  Commons was mixed-use for the current site, or located somewhere else like Midtown which could have filled vaccant land made use of the Euclid Corridor project, it is still a decent project. It isn't as exciting as some other projects for the city, but in the bigger picture of whats going on with other projects Steelyard Commons doesn't depress me. In fact for a big box shopping center, Steelyards is maybe the best example a good big box shopping center.

 

1.  The fact that it will make use of this brownfield site is positive.

2. First Interstate has agreed to pay for extension of the Towpath Trail and would construct a platform and station for the  CV Scenic Railroad's extension to downtown.

3. The development is somewhat environmentally friendly with innovative parking lots to reduce runoff.

4. First Interstate has asked for little to no financial assistance from the city.

5.  The location is pretty central, and isn't too bad. Is it somewhat isolated from residential neighborhoods? A little, but by car it will take Clevelanders a very short time, and it will be very convenient. In addition, it shouldn't be much of a problem for RTA to run buses through the development. First Interstate and RTA are working together on the transit aspect.

6. I don't think neighborhood markets like Dave's will be affected. Dave's and other markets are in terrific locations. I've actually been to Superwalmarts, and I can tell you that they really aren't full service grocery stores. There is one in Oxford. On the occasions that I went to Superwalmart I would try and do grocery shopping there, but ended up having to stop at Kroger afterward anyway for simple things like a box of crackers.

7. As much as I don't care for sprawling big box suburban shopping centers, the reality is that they are here. People shop at them and like them. I'm not too sure how I'll like the aesthetics of Steelyard Commons, but even so, the scale and and layout of this development is unparalleled by any other type of development that exists in Northeast Ohio (or perhaps the country). I kind of like the fact that instead of Cleveland having a variety of big box shopping centers throughout the city, all big box shopping will probably be concentrated here in one place.

8. Because big box shopping will be highly concentrated, not only will it keep money spent in Cleveland, but it may also draw people from the suburbs and maybe even international tourists who are staying downtown. Not even the suburbs could really compete with a shopping center like this one. Check out their current lease plan on their website.

 

I entertain European visitors maybe a few times a year. They are actually more excited about shopping at Avon Commons than Crocker Park. I think it might give Cleveland an edge on the international tourism market, because shopping centers like Steelyard Commons and its tenants are not found in any other major cities. Europeans know and hear about all these big box stores in America, but when they come visit big cities in America they are rarely given the opportunity to see them.

^On that note, my wife's best friend is from Sweden. No trip to Cleveland for her is ever complete without stopping off at Target to load up on socks!

^I have no doubt. We had a young austrian girl staying at my house and she was buying up jeans at Costco like crazy, and didn't think too much of Indigo Nation. There were a group international executives in town who wanted to do some American shopping. They went to Beachwood, Crocker Park, and Avon Commons. They spent the most money at Avon Commons.

On that note, my wife's best friend is from Sweden. No trip to Cleveland for her is ever complete without stopping off at Target to load up on socks!

 

Oh wow, thanks for a well timed good laugh!

check out: http://cpc.cuyahogacounty.us/cpc/map.asp

 

and choose layer control in top right and change to "brownfields".  Not a pretty map, especially when you zoom in.

 

I drove by SYC over the weekend (after the subway tour) to take some dashboartd photos for my photoblog.

They have most of the Streetlights and curb work done and have moved the piling(?) work over to the Dick's and Home Depot parcels.

 

I am lazy and do not want to post them all here. If you want to see the rest, you have to go here:

http://dashboardcamera.blogspot.com/

 

Lights and curbs

 

 

 

From the eastern side.

 

 

From the western side.

 

 

 

I am too lazy to take a peak at the layout, but I hope that there are views of the Steel Mill (but as I recall, I think some of the boxes will be in the way). This will probably be the closest that I can get to a working steel mill. 

As I will be moving to Ohio City soon, I will say that I am glad that this sort of shopping will be close by. There are certain things that I just can't get in the neighborhood stores.  I'll feel much better knowing that my sales tax will be going to Cleveland.

 

Sure wish that the RTA would spur the Pink line off at 25th, through Tremont, through SYC, and up and out to 25th/Pearl.

There are certain things that I just can't get in the neighborhood stores.

Of course, this has nothing to do with patronizing the chain stores in the suburbs.

 

I'll feel much better knowing that my sales tax will be going to Cleveland.

 

I thought sales taxes in Ohio were levied by the counties.

 

Of course, this has nothing to do with patronizing the chain stores in the suburbs.

 

It has everything to do with market studies of residential income that national retailers conduct when they decide where to locate their stores. Additionally, do you suggest that I not purchase a car seat for my baby boy because I would be supporting the suburbs?

Sure wish that the RTA would spur the Pink line..........

 

That is so gay!    :oops:    I can just imagine a "mary kay cosmetic" advertising campaign, with all the trains painted pink!  LMAO

Sure wish that the RTA would spur the Pink line off at 25th, through Tremont, through SYC, and up and out to 25th/Pearl.

 

I believe you're referring to the "Pink Flamingo" Line. The classiest transit alternative ever conceived!

 

 

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=8513.0