I wouldn't say it will have easy rail access from West 25th. You're better off taking the Tremont Community Circulator, which serves the Ohio City Rapid station and the West 25th corridor, and will serve SYC.

From yesterday's CoolCleveland...a very informative and thought provoking article written by Lee Chilcote:

 

[Half of the article makes me want to gag, but there's still some of it that makes me hopeful. SYC will impact things in Cleveland and only time will tell whether that impact is largely good or bad.]

 

Cool Cleveland Comment

A Steelyard Paradox: New Shopping Center to Open Early Next Year

 

On a mile-long stretch of the Cuyahoga Valley, a place in the Flats with a hulking steel mill on one side and crisscrossing highways on the other, there’s a Target going in.

 

And a Wal-Mart, and a Home Depot. Between the mill and the highway, they’re laying the cinderblock and brick, and painting the asphalt with bright, yellow stripes.

 

This was once home to a two million square foot finishing mill for LTV, one of the largest steel makers in the world. When it opens early next year, the new retail development going in here, Steelyard Commons, will offer a million square feet of new shops. It’s the first new shopping center to be built in the city of Cleveland since Tower City in the 80s, and the largest open air mall in the county.

 

Read More...

that last sentence.... huh?  what neighborhoods?  its in between the industrial valley and a highway...

If you're on W. 14th, it's gonna feel really close.  Though, it'll probably still not be "walkable."

But following some Towpath extensions, as well as the development of neighborhood connectors in Old Brooklyn, it could be bikable, though ... although I haven't quite figured out the "shopping by bike" thing.

But following some Towpath extensions, as well as the development of neighborhood connectors in Old Brooklyn, it could be bikable, though ... although I haven't quite figured out the "shopping by bike" thing.

 

Vesta...bike with baskets or the over rear wheel cargo holds....I think this prevent folks from going out to the burbs to shop for basics/every day essentials.

"Steelyard Commons" Commercial Development Anticipates Opening   

11-10-2006 11:54 AM

 

(Cleveland, OH) -- It could bring hundreds of millions of dollars into the city of Cleveland's economy, and it's heading towards opening day early next year. Steelyard Commons officials say the new shopping complex will start seeing stores opening early next year. A Home Depot on the site is expected to open in February, a Target a month later, and the center should be nearly completed by the time the Wal-Mart on the site opens in the summer of 2007. Major site work will be done by the start of next month.

 

Copyright 2006 Metro Networks Communications Inc., A Westwood One Company 

I've seen a lot of coverage over this project on the local news. The media is really responding well to it; even calling it a "shopping mecca", although I'm not sure what kind of retail-starved people would consider Wal-Mart and Target a shopper's paradise. I'm glad it's got a lot of buzz surrounding it.

I've seen a lot of coverage over this project on the local news. The media is really responding well to it; even calling it a "shopping mecca", although I'm not sure what kind of retail-starved people would consider Wal-Mart and Target a shopper's paradise. I'm glad it's got a lot of buzz surrounding it.

 

If they can brand that crap in westlake, with virtually the same stores a mecca so can SYC.  Target is not the target of old when it was owned by Hudson Group.

 

Hell I wish we had a Target in Shaker Square or Harlem!

From today's PD:

 

Steelyard Commons study reassesses impact

Wednesday, November 22, 2006

Olivera Perkins

Plain Dealer Reporter

 

Steelyard Commons, the city's first shopping megacenter, may not deliver the all-encompassing blow to neighborhood retail districts that many feared, says a study sparked by City Council concern.

 

Some businesses, like those along Clark Avenue, probably will benefit from the increased traffic from the nearby shopping center and its Wal-Mart supercenter, the study by New York-based MJB Consulting concludes.

 

And while Steelyard Commons could make it more difficult for neighborhoods like Old Brooklyn to attract supermarkets and some other chains, it doesn't necessarily doom the local retail districts, the study says. For example, the northwest corner of Pearl and Broadview roads in Old Brooklyn is well-positioned to attract deep-discount stores capable of capturing Steelyard Commons shoppers.

 

Read More...

And a response from Bill Callahan:

http://www.callahansclevelanddiary.com/?p=120

 

What the Steelyard Commons impact report really says

 

I just got a copy of the executive summary of MJB Consulting’s study of the probable impact of Steelyard Commons on nearby neighborhood business districts. This is the document presented yesterday to City Council, as reported by the PD’s Olivera Perkins this morning.

 

Here’s Perkins’ lead:

 

   

Steelyard Commons, the city’s first shopping megacenter, may not deliver the all-encompassing blow to neighborhood retail districts that many feared, says a study sparked by City Council concern.

 

Here’s some of what the MJB document actually says about SYC’s likely impact:

 

   

SUPERMARKETS

 

    - According to a study by the University of Chicago’s Graduate School of Business, the sales volume of a traditional supermarket can be expected to drop by 17% upon the arrival of a Supercenter.

 

    - The study found that a Supercenter “captures” sales from the following demographic segments: 1) those with infants and pets (i.e. young families); 2) weekend shoppers; 3) store-brand buyers; and 4) large-basket consumers.

 

    - The households that do not switch to the Supercenter are ones that devote a large percentage of their grocery expenditures to fresh produce and seafood, as well as freshly-prepared, take-home meals.

 

    - The strategy that seems more promising is to exploit Wal-Mart’s weaknesses on the high-margin “perimeter” (i.e. produce, meat, fish, deli/HMR, bakery etc) and provide a higher standard in the areas of freshness and service.

 

    - The impact at certain Dave’s locations will be limited since as much as 30-50% of shoppers do not have a car, and will not have access to Steelyards-bound transit. However, unlike the national chains, Dave’s does not have a large store fleet (and high-grossing suburban units) that can help to absorb a blow, and it will probably need to close a couple of units, at least.

 

    - The “limited-assortment” grocers (i.e. Save-A-Lot, Aldi’s) consistently beat Wal-Mart on price, and they do not fear the arrival of a Supercenter. In fact, Aldi’s, with a price advantage of as much as 17-18%, usually experiences an increase in sales when a Supercenter opens.

 

    - Bi-Rite stores within the shadow of Steelyard Commons, will be hard-pressed to compete on price with Wal-Mart, but smaller ones can continue to fill a niche, as high-service, convenience-oriented food markets for nearby residents who only need a few items…

 

    -HARDWARE STORES

 

    - On one hand, it can be argued that, as survivors of a Darwinian struggle, Cleveland’s independent hardware stores have already proven their ability to endure and adapt, and on the other, that they are just “hanging on” and will be unable to recover from this “knockout punch”, especially given the weakness of the regional economy and resulting stagnation in Cleveland’s housing market.

 

    - The key to co-existing with the big boxes is no secret. The shopping experience there can be a very unpleasant one, whereas independent hardware stores are typically closer (i.e. in the neighborhood), smaller (i.e. no long treks from one department to another), faster (i.e. no long waits to get a clerk’s attention), etc.

 

    - Rather than a traditional full-line mix, independent operators should “choose what they want to be famous for”, i.e. evaluate their departments, identify their strength, deepen their selection, leverage their superior knowledge and experience, offer an exceptionally high level of customer service, and charge a premium…

 

    APPAREL

 

    - The low-priced selections at popular chains such as Wal-Mart and Old Navy will likely depress sales at (and curb the expansion plans of) lower-profile retailers that sell affordable second-tier brands, like Fashion Cents or TNT Fashions. On the other hand, independents and chain-lets that showcase the latest and hottest “urban sportswear” labels (e.g. Grind, Ts Urban Gear) can prosper in the shadow of the boxes.

 

    - While Target specializes in so-called “cheap chic” and peddles exclusive lines by fashion-world celebrities, it certainly leaves room for boutiques that feature hip/“hipster” fashions or lesser-known designers. Thrift stores can also prosper in Steelyard’s shadow.

 

So… Dave’s will probably have to close a couple of (union) stores. (Elsewhere in the report, the Dave’s stores in Slavic Village and Stockyards are specifically mentioned as possible losers.) But maybe we’ll get a couple more (non-union, low-pay) Aldi’s or Sav-Mors (like the one that replaced the Tops on Clark), and maybe the Bi-Rites can convert themselves into convenience stores. Actual clothing stores like Fashion Cents and TNT will suffer, but don’t worry, we can still sell gangsta gear out of storefronts. Some small hardware stores might survive by selling less stuff for higher prices.

 

Since the PD never seriously reported any predictions of an “all-encompassing blow to neighborhood retail districts that many feared” before SYC was a done deal, it’s hard to know what Perkins’ first sentence is referring to. But here’s what this blog had to say on the subject in 2005. (http://cleveland_diary.blogspot.com/2005/07/abandoning-neighborhood-retail-strips.html).

As well as this about Dave’s (http://cleveland_diary.blogspot.com/2005/02/daves-supermarkets-vp-says-steelyard.html).

And this about a proposed city policy to protect living-wage grocery jobs (http://cleveland_diary.blogspot.com/2005/02/steelyard-commons-hysteria.html).

 

As far as I can see, MJB’s predictions presented yesterday to Council are not very different from mine. The PD’s cheery “See, it’s not as bad as people said” lead is nothing short of bizarre.

 

The full report (done for Cleveland Neighborhood Development Corporation) apparently isn’t available yet, and the executive summary hasn’t been published or posted anywhere, but since it was given to City Council and the press in a public session, I’m going to assume it’s subject to fair use. So here’s the whole thing:

 

Big-Box Centers and Neighborhood Business Districts (Executive Summary)

http://mail2.visn.net/~bilcal/mjbreport.doc

 

I strongly recommend that neighborhood activists take a careful look at the assessments and recommendations for individual neighborhoods. But please note: MJB does not address Brooklyn Centre or Stockyards as separate neighborhoods — they’re apparently lumped into Old Brooklyn and Clark-Fulton, respectively.

 

 

Good stuff - although Mr Callahan has always seemed a little cranky to me.

I've seen a lot of coverage over this project on the local news. The media is really responding well to it; even calling it a "shopping mecca", although I'm not sure what kind of retail-starved people would consider Wal-Mart and Target a shopper's paradise. I'm glad it's got a lot of buzz surrounding it.

 

If they can brand that crap in westlake, with virtually the same stores a mecca so can SYC.  Target is not the target of old when it was owned by Hudson Group.

 

Hell I wish we had a Target in Shaker Square or Harlem!

 

ahh you're getting one by you in harlem. courtesy of guess who? yep, none other than forest city RATner:

 

http://www.nysun.com/article/39643

 

"In 2008, Harlem residents and visitors will have the opportunity to shop at Target, which has six stores in the city and two more under construction. Last week, Blumenfeld Development Group and its joint venture partner Forest City Ratner announced that Target has signed a lease for a 135,000-square-foot mega store. It will serve as an anchor, along with Home Depot, at East River Plaza, a new shopping center located on the site of Washburn Wire factory site (which has been vacant for more than a quarter of a century)."

 

 

 

ahh you're getting one by you in harlem. courtesy of guess who? yep, none other than forest city RATner:

 

http://www.nysun.com/article/39643

 

"In 2008, Harlem residents and visitors will have the opportunity to shop at Target, which has six stores in the city and two more under construction. Last week, Blumenfeld Development Group and its joint venture partner Forest City Ratner announced that Target has signed a lease for a 135,000-square-foot mega store. It will serve as an anchor, along with Home Depot, at East River Plaza, a new shopping center located on the site of Washburn Wire factory site (which has been vacant for more than a quarter of a century)."

 

 

 

This project has been questionable to me for a while.  Those of us that live in Central Harlem (Park Ave. to Manhattan Ave.) most likely will not shop there.

 

Its not convenient, or easily accessible.  http://www.bdg.net/properties/31

 

1, 2, 3 aves are no mans land - I don't see folks going over there, due to the massive housing projects you need to pass thru to get to the location.

 

This area isn't like Fort Green/Clinton Hills or even Red Hook in Brooklyn where you can build and the residents will come.  There are sections of Harlem near 116 that because of the projects they have built around.

 

I've lived in Harlem since '95 and change is slow.

 

ahh but its a target in harlem. let the chips fall after that. eventually it'll do well regardless.

 

come to think of it that project has been on and off for quite a few years, it was interesting to read some new news about it being 'on' again.

 

ps - welcome to the forum, good to have yet another clevelander in nyc on here.

 

 

ahh but its a target in harlem. let the chips fall after that. eventually it'll do well regardless.

 

come to think of it that project has been on and off for quite a few years, it was interesting to read some new news about it being 'on' again.

 

ps - welcome to the forum, good to have yet another clevelander in nyc on here.

 

 

 

well its new york.  the population makes "iffy" project some what successful based on population alone.  I just won't shopping over there! 

 

I'm still waiting for a large scale bookstore here in Harlem!

 

Thanks.

I agree its to far away for my maid to walk!  :-P

Just checked out the current lease plan and it was interesting. A lot of changes since last time I checked it out.

It's probably been covered in this thread, but oh well.

 

On my trip home for the holidays, I saw the new "STEELYARD" signs along the Jennings.  Even if the development has a bigger parking lot than a suburban mall, I think those signs look great. 

my wife and I drove to toronto this weekend.  on the way up the qew I nearly choked with rage when I saw two ikeas within an hour of each other off the same freeway.  aack...aack...aack.  I was livid.  how can we not get an ikea in steelyard commons?!  the usual line is that they do not build so close to other sites.  obviously that is not true.  now we are stuck with a walmart and a bunch of junk.  huge missed oppourtunity.

i'm still never going to figure out the fascination with ikea.

^I second the motion.  Their furniture looks like it will fall apart in a gentle breeze.

well regardless of personal taste preferences, an ikea does not a city make.

my wife and I drove to toronto this weekend.  on the way up the qew I nearly choked with rage when I saw two ikeas within an hour of each other off the same freeway.  aack...aack...aack.  I was livid.  how can we not get an ikea in steelyard commons?!  the usual line is that they do not build so close to other sites.  obviously that is not true.  now we are stuck with a walmart and a bunch of junk.  huge missed oppourtunity.

 

 

Mitchell Schneider has talked with them and they came to an understanding Cleveland was not a good location for an Ikea. Schneider did say he fully believes there will be an Ikea in the "Cleveland Area" in about 2 or 3 years. After further pressing, he let out that he thought the Green or Fairlawn area would be the likely site of choice.

As much as I would love to have an store in Cleveland, this makes more sense location wise. If there were a store in Cleveland, what kind of market would they draw from Lake Erie? Having it in the Akron Canton region (still north East Ohio) would give them a bigger market area.

 

 

^I second the motion.  Their furniture looks like it will fall apart in a gentle breeze.

 

My 14 yo daughter's room was decked out with their furniture two years ago and not one thing has fallen apart.

 

well regardless of personal taste preferences, an ikea does not a city make.

^I second the motion.  Their furniture looks like it will fall apart in a gentle breeze.

i'm still never going to figure out the fascination with ikea.

 

I have a feeling IKEA makes more money in Europe than the States as the furniture is geared and built to european standards, (ie. low to ground or/and compact/apartment size furniture)

 

I'm not a big IKEA fan, but when I have gone its the gadgets/gizmos, chochkey, napkins, pillows, etc.  thats the crap that gets you in.  And like the Price is Right, IKEA is big with college kids.

 

how can we not get an ikea in steelyard commons?!  the usual line is that they do not build so close to other sites.  obviously that is not true.  now we are stuck with a walmart and a bunch of junk.  huge missed oppourtunity.

 

I hear what you are saying about having an IKEA location in SYC, but the other retailers dont mix well with IKEA.  Target, Walmart and IKEA don't mix.  The other retailers probably had more confidence in an "needed" anchor like IKEA as opposed to a "great addition" like IKEA.  Now having IKEA built say on E. 55th Street is to me a better location and match.

 

Also, what do you mean by, "walmart and a bunch of junk".  Have you looked at the stores that are opening there?  What is your definition of "junk"?

 

I think the stores that have leased space will do well and serve the neighborhood just fine.  I believe this is a good project.  Although A rail connection into the project would have been great. :lol:

is there an updated open date for the Target?  it looks close...

Home Depot - February 1

Target - March 11

would you say that the anticipated open date is "right on TARGET"?

 

hardy har har

bunch of junk = not destination stores.  people drive for an ikea.  clevelanders will drive to pittsburgh to visit the ikea there.  and generally the result of an ikea opening is a large number of quality second tier stores moving in nearby.  I understand the importance of offering something within the city so people don't drive to the suburbs for it.  but what about offering something so people in the suburbs drive in to the city to shop?  sorry I am non-plussed by a walmart and a target, oh and don't forget a chipotle.  ugh.  target is making itself so common by oversaturating the market.  there will also be one on 117th, opening shortly as well, no?  and walmart is, well, walmart.     

math,

 

how often do you spend time at the stores surrounding Pittsburgh's ikea?

Not defending Schneider, but his goal was to create a market first (which really does not need to be created, the Cleveland market has been underserved for over a decade). Thats what the first phase of stores will bring. His second phase (northwest corner, 19 acres) is supoosed to bring more destination stores. That's the intention anyway. There is also an additional 12 acres not leased yet.

An of course, the real draw - the thing that will bring people from all over - Towpath Trail!

bunch of junk = not destination stores.  people drive for an ikea.  clevelanders will drive to pittsburgh to visit the ikea there.  and generally the result of an ikea opening is a large number of quality second tier stores moving in nearby.  I understand the importance of offering something within the city so people don't drive to the suburbs for it.  but what about offering something so people in the suburbs drive in to the city to shop?  sorry I am non-plussed by a walmart and a target, oh and don't forget a chipotle.  ugh.  target is making itself so common by oversaturating the market.  there will also be one on 117th, opening shortly as well, no?  and walmart is, well, walmart.     

 

Unfortunately, this comment is indicative of the "build it, and they will come" mentality that has doomed many a silver bullet project in the past. Just because you do what's right doesn't mean that the public will respond in a manner that is reasonable, or even logical. The people in the suburbs left the city when there were still attractions here, so it was obviously some other factor, or combination of factors, that caused them to leave. Steelyard was a risky project from the get go, so putting in known draws (such as the uber-evil Wal Mart) is a means of mitigating the unknown of placing this type of development so close to the downtown core.

 

I have friends in Euclid who, if there were an IKEA in Steelyard, would likely modify their behavior pattern to save their IKEA run for an occasion that brought them closer to Pittsburgh, because they "just don't go downtown". I'm trying to change that attitude, but it takes time, and works slowly. You cannot expect that any one factor will be a motivation to people. It's the combination of factors that causes sentiment, and then behavior, to shift.

when I am in pittsburgh for the ikea, I stop also at the music store across the highway, and then at the baja fresh for lunch.  my car no longer goes out of town.  and rentals being expensive, I am not there more than once a year.  but it is a nice odds and ends detour if something good is at the mattress factory or the warhol that we plan to visit anyhow.  as a part-time employed student my shopping habits are hardly normal. 

 

honestly, I don't think it's a relevent question.  I only wanted to express my disregard for the selection offered at the future steelyard commons, and that there was a clear missed oppourtunity there.  your opinion of ikea furniture is also puzzling.  sure, I get it...you don't like ikea.  but apparently alot of people do.  and when you drive past two of them, within in an hour of each other on the same highway, and the parking lot is packed in both, it gets you thinking, wouldn't that be nice in our city.  now will a walmart really engender that much enthusiasm from the local community.  maybe, but at what price to the local workforce and businesses.  no thanks, I'll pass.   

The only things that will make SYC fail are security and upkeep.

 

If, for example, the PWT in parts of my neighborhood stake claim to it, or it becomes what Tower City is trying to get out of, thenthe people it is try to attract (including my wife and me) will not go anymore. IMO

when I am in pittsburgh for the ikea, I stop also at the music store across the highway, and then at the baja fresh for lunch.  my car no longer goes out of town.  and rentals being expensive, I am not there more than once a year.  but it is a nice odds and ends detour if something good is at the mattress factory or the warhol that we plan to visit anyhow.  as a part-time employed student my shopping habits are hardly normal. 

 

honestly, I don't think it's a relevent question.  I only wanted to express my disregard for the selection offered at the future steelyard commons, and that there was a clear missed oppourtunity there.  your opinion of ikea furniture is also puzzling.  sure, I get it...you don't like ikea.  but apparently alot of people do.  and when you drive past two of them, within in an hour of each other on the same highway, and the parking lot is packed in both, it gets you thinking, wouldn't that be nice in our city.  now will a walmart really engender that much enthusiasm from the local community.  maybe, but at what price to the local workforce and businesses.  no thanks, I'll pass.   

 

well i can hardly call it a "destination store" if your trip entails the baja fresh and the record store.

 

Or look at it this way, "what's the point of having a destination store" if only to get people to the baja fresh also?

 

Detroit's IKEA is having this problem. Local Business in the Ford Road corridor (big boxes included) have seen a DECREASE in sales due mainly to a) IKEA b) Ikea's impact upon traffic c) people typically only go the area for Ikea, and that's it.

The fact remains: IKEA doesn't want to be in Cleveland. I understand that we need to be creative and think differently about development. But it is not up to us to decide where to put our IKEAs.

I understand that we need to be creative and think differently about development.

 

You mean like putting a suburban big-box shopping center within a stone's throw of downtown?

I understand that we need to be creative and think differently about development.

 

You mean like putting a suburban big-box shopping center within a stone's throw of downtown?

 

Its not that close to downtown.  Also, DC has its share of BIG BOX right accross the river in VA. or in Silver Spring.

I understand that we need to be creative and think differently about development.

 

You mean like putting a suburban big-box shopping center within a stone's throw of downtown?

No, I said the opposite.

sorry, I think you are being rather simplistic about this.  I claimed not one, but two destinations besides the ikea.  hence, what?  agree to disagree if you like.  but detroit has a lot of problems, why should it surprise me they have traffic issues surrounding a shopping center.  the shopping around north olmsted is a traffic nightmare, and every store is full.  moreover, if one store can bring that many people, why is that a problem.  my point is that steelyard will be lucky to get that kind of business with the lousy stores they are offering.  their is nothing so remarkable about what is being put in there.  so I will keep my disappointment.     

 

yes, ikea doesn't want cleveland.  but something better than walmart and target had to be out there.  why it couldn't be done in such an underserved market, is beyond me.

 

yes, people in euclid(and parma, and north olmsted, and everywhere) have preconceived, often racist, opinions about downtown cleveland.  someone who would drive 2 hours to avoid shopping in a city has problems.

Also, DC has its share of BIG BOX right accross the river in VA. or in Silver Spring.

 

How ridiculous can you be?  The City of Cleveland approved the P.O.S. that is Steelyard Commons.  If you're going to throw stones back, at least recognize that a city cannot approve development that occurs IN ANOTHER STATE.

 

Waiting for neighborhood storefronts to empty out as folks head for the concrete masonry and EIFS wonderland of SYC....

Also, DC has its share of BIG BOX right across the river in VA. or in Silver Spring.

 

How ridiculous can you be?  The City of Cleveland approved the P.O.S. that is Steelyard Commons.  If you're going to throw stones back, at least recognize that a city cannot approve development that occurs IN ANOTHER STATE.

 

Waiting for neighborhood storefronts to empty out as folks head for the concrete masonry and EIFS wonderland of SYC....

 

just as ridiculous as you are to argue with everyone on UO when they don't see your point!

So the stores are located in states that border the district. But they take shoppers, money and potential residents from DC proper .  Is that ridiculous, ridiculous?

Most neighborhood storefront stores serve different niches than what's being offered at Steelyard - and there's nothing new to the area going into Steelyard. How many times do you have to hear this? Clevelanders have been shopping at EIFS/concrete wonderlands for years - Clevelanders' money has been going to Home Depot, Target and Wal-Mart for a long time - it just so happened to be in Brookpark, Rocky River, North Olmsted, etc.

 

People that go to places like the Banyan Tree and Eye Candy Gallery aren't going to suddenly choose to buy art and home decor at Target. An Applebees is not going to put the South Side or Prosperity Social Club out of business - why? Just like independent retailers, the indy restaurants serve a different market. If Cleveland's independent retail and restaurants are going to be vaporized because of some chain stores opening shop, they have a lot worse problems than Steelyard Commons.

 

City Council paid for a study that aimed to measure the negative impact that Steelyard would have on local businesses. Except for Dave's, the study showed that local businesses would actually show a slight improvement. 

D.C. is getting its share of big box within the city as well....  Columbia Heights......

D.C. is getting its share of big box within the city as well....  Columbia Heights......

 

But even that is not surrounded by an ocean of parking in a relatively remote, accessible-by-automobile-only area.  The Target will front on 14th Street, much as the Best Buy and Container Store in Tenleytown front on the sidewalk of Wisconsin Avenue.  And then there's the Metro station right there. 

 

SYC is just a bad joke in a place that has largely forgotten how to be a city.

City Council paid for a study that aimed to measure the negative impact that Steelyard would have on local businesses. Except for Dave's, the study showed that local businesses would actually show a slight improvement.

 

Think of it this way--if you need to head to a drug store, you're not going to use the one in your neighborhood if you're going to be at SYC anyway.  Same as for other businesses like book stores and record shops.  Wimwar, you keep equating "neighborhood businesses" with speciality niche retailers.  It's the bread-and-butter places that are going to lose their asses. 

 

So yeah, you'll have your very own suburban parking paradise right outside downtown, but at what expense?

 

And let's not forget that for some city residents, the suburban shopping centers are still going to be closer to them than SYC.  This is going to help Cleveland as much as Tower City and the Galleria did.

^If it's so awful, and so horrible - why are you here? If all you have to offer this forum is complaints and generalizing judgements of an entire region based on the faults of a single project, why are you here? Do you really have so much free time that you can spend it wallowing in negativity?

Bookstores and record shops? Riiiight - people who shop there would rather try to find their goods at Target. Okeydokey.

Now you're being disingenous, MayDay.  I'm generally very positive on Cleveland.  What drives me absolutely bonkers is that the city thinks it can behave like a suburb and continue to survive.  This strategy hasn't worked for the past 60 years, and it isn't going to work now.  The cities that ARE doing well are the ones that are focusing on urbanity--not cookie cutter schlock architecture found in every American suburb.  When is something going to change???  Next thing you know, the city will find a way to bulldoze a prime parcel of land to build something that looks exactly like Legacy Village.

 

And as you damn well know, Target isn't the only store at SYC.  Stop oversimplifying.

^If it's so awful, and so horrible - why are you here? If all you have to offer this forum is complaints and generalizing judgements of an entire region based on the faults of a single project, why are you here? Do you really have so much free time that you can spend it wallowing in negativity?

 

THANK YOU!  NOW - CAN MY POST FURTHER DOWN BE REINSTATED TO ITS ORIGINAL TEXT?