well i agree, and most of us on here agree and im pretty sure its been discussed a lot on here.  but... does RTA agree or even care?  thats the big question heh

Well that is what i want to know....how do we put pressure on the "right people". Does anyone know this "Historic Trolley group"? I heard that they want to buy the lakefront line from RTA. If that is the case...lets help them get the money they need. They will probably manage it better than RTA anyway!

 

 

Didn't GCRTA actually do a brief run of some of these old streetcars / trolleys on the Water Front Line a couple of years ago?

The agreement that the trolley group has with RTA is that they would be able to use the Waterfront Line and RTA would no longer run their Light-Rail Blue/Green line trains on it. (Unless there is a Brown's game or an event on the North Coast)  The one issue of contention is who is going to operate the trolley on the line.  I believe RTA is insisting that it be RTA employees, because of possible Union Issues.

 

There was some discussion two years ago about rerouting the waterfront line directly through the new Flat's East Bank Development as a trolley line, but I'm not sure if that ever went through.  My source at Wolstein is no longer there.

I agree this is a pretty sweet idea.  To me the best way to get this to move forward is to attach it to another big project that could happen in Cleveland.  The Convention Center/Merch Mart would be the best single project to piggyback on.  The location would have to be back at the original Convention Center since thats closest to the route you are referring to.  It would probably be pointless to work with the Tower City location since everything would be in "walking distance". 

I have several contacts at the group seeking the downtown streetcars. It's called Lake Shore Electric Railway (named after Cleveland's last electric interurban). See: http://www.lsery.org/index.htm

 

They have their hands full enough trying to get funding for a permanent storage and car renovations building to be built on the lakefront, at the end of the Waterfront Line. That's their first priority. Getting the OK to operate on the Waterfront Line for special events and such is priority #2. And somewhere in the distant future, they want to expand to operate on new streetcar tracks on an undetermined route. But let's make sure they have a permanent home first. The city owned warehouse building on Dock 32 won't last, as the city would like that area redeveloped. The streetcars and interurbans need a new home soon!

The plan sounds Awesome.  Here's hoping it actually happens.

 

Keep us posted!

bump

 

I think extending the WFL to Colinwood would be a colossal waste of money.  Even if we could extend it to E55th, or even E105th for not much $ (doubtful), I'd bet that the ridership gains would be negligable.  I'd think an East Shore commuter line that pushed deep into the East Shore 'burbs would make more sense.

 

Anyway, maybe any more talk about these things should happen here:

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,2768.90.html

The reason I didn't initially advocate pushing into Lake County is that another jurisdiction would be involved then, and who knows what that might entail.  But clearly the further it goes the more useful it would be.  Painesville would be ideal.

 

But I strongly disagree that a line ending in Collinwood or Euclid would be unpopular.  These communities are way too far from downtown to allow for a reasonable bus commute, and 90 has frequent problems... these problems will only increase when the dead-man's curve redo begins. Collinwood and Euclid are too urban to sell as anything other than urban living.  Marketable urban living involves being able to depend on transit for most of your needs.  Given this location, that sort of living becomes a lot more feasible with a downtown rail connection. 

 

Collinwood is a flickering bright spot in a very desolate part of the city-- and it's separated from downtown by miles and miles of ghetto.  It needs this.  We need this.  It's not a future need, it's a present need that's been ignored long enough.  The waterfront line has been a PR disaster for RTA for 10+ years at this point.  It's high time we justified it, by making it go somewhere that can't be walked to in the time it takes to catch a train.

^How flickering is Collinwood really, outside of the few-block long Waterloo main street and some of the lakefront blocks?  I'm not very familiar with the dynics there, but I know most of it being hammered by foreclosures and I'd guess large population loss.  Yes the neighborhood would benefit, but is that worth the expense of building LR-only ROW and catenary through several miles of sparsely populated industrial land between Burke and Glenville (that's 3.6 miles right there)?  And would that benefit really help stem the decay in Collinwood and Euclid?  Or in 30 years would we just end up with another horribly underperforming rail line surrounded by underpopulated neighborhoods?

 

Yeah, the WFL has been a PR disaster- many people thought it was doomed to be.  Even if the FEB was built out, I still think it would be a loser.  Even if it were connected as a loop, I think it would be a loser, because it would encircle the CBD without actually intersecting most of it.

 

If we want to spend that kind of money on rail (which of course I do), I would much rather see rail service on the rail ROW through Lakewood, or see the Shaker lines re-routed onto city streets to serve CCC, St. Vincents and the new residential parts of Central.

 

Addendum:  For rail service to Collinwood, I'd rather see the Redline extended along the partially abandoned ROW of way that heads due north from the existing rail spine between the Superior and Windermere stops.  That would mean less new track/catenary construction, plus it would tie Collinwood to UC as well as downtown (via an admittedly long route) and provide one seat ride from East Side to West Side.

Extending the red line there would be excellent.  I'd like to see a loop made up of these two lines.

 

Are you saying there's no neighborhood development potential between downtown and Collinwood?  Asiatown?  St Clair-Superior?  Glenville?  Connecting these and everything else to employment centers associated with the new port?  Nothing?  I disagree... I think this is the ripest development corridor we have going.  It's the one that would gain the most from a new rail line.  I think the lack of rail service to downtown is a glaring problem with these neighborhoods and they would each gain tremendously from it... moreso the further out they are.

 

Sorry Lakewood... you're closer, you have 3 parallel bus lines and 2 freeways, you have a tangential rail connection already, you're possibly getting BRT next, and most importantly you're connected to downtown by a chain of gentrifying zip codes.  All of those factors tell me the eastern corridor has more to gain from new rail service.

 

Collinwood is a legitimate flickering light.  Is it limited to the immediate Beachland area?  Kinda, but it has a lot of decent neighborhood to build upon besides that small stretch.  It's one of the few neighborhoods in town, particularly on the east side, that municipal workers clung to and preserved.  It's on the cusp of revival, but unlike the city's other growing areas, it's much further out and it's isolated by ghetto.  Those factors indicate to me that rail service is about the best thing we could do for it.

 

I can't see re-doing existing lines when the system is so incomplete as it is.  I would do that after east, after west, after Parma or Berea, and after extending the blue line a few miles SE.  I see very little chance the CCC area would develop any time soon regardless of transit options... and it's already adjacent to downtown.

The reason I didn't initially advocate pushing into Lake County is that another jurisdiction would be involved then, and who knows what that might entail.  But clearly the further it goes the more useful it would be.  Painesville would be ideal.

Well if we start talking about going that far out light rail becomes a less attractive option (doesn't go as fast, smaller cars, more expensive because of the overhead wires) and so we're realistically talking about commuter rail if we want something on tracks.

 

If we're talking about commuter rail heading out that direction, than I don't think we should discount the idea simply because it crosses a county line. After all, Laketran has been providing commuter busses into Cleveland for years, so there's already a base of riders ready and willing to hop on board. (Though their numbers have been falling since they announced fare increases. $3.75 each way, are you serious Laketran?) Also since Laketran has been losing money on the commuter bus routes, I imagine they'd be happy to see someone take over getting people to downtown.

 

If you could get all the Laketran riders on board, plus add in the ridership from the 239 and 39F, I don't see how a line headed out to Painesville, with stops at E 105th, E 185th, Euclid Square Mall, Wickliffe, Willoughby, and Mentor wouldn't be able to fill its seats.

 

But I strongly disagree that a line ending in Collinwood or Euclid would be unpopular.  These communities are way too far from downtown to allow for a reasonable bus commute, and 90 has frequent problems... these problems will only increase when the dead-man's curve redo begins. Collinwood and Euclid are too urban to sell as anything other than urban living.  Marketable urban living involves being able to depend on transit for most of your needs.  Given this location, that sort of living becomes a lot more feasible with a downtown rail connection. 

 

Collinwood is a flickering bright spot in a very desolate part of the city-- and it's separated from downtown by miles and miles of ghetto.  It needs this.  We need this.  It's not a future need, it's a present need that's been ignored long enough.  The waterfront line has been a PR disaster for RTA for 10+ years at this point.  It's high time we justified it, by making it go somewhere that can't be walked to in the time it takes to catch a train.

I don't think many of us would deny that extending the WFL to Collinwood or Euclid would be fantastic for those neighborhoods. The problem is, I think we'd have a hard time convincing people that it would attract anywhere near enough riders to justify the expense.

 

Addendum:  For rail service to Collinwood, I'd rather see the Redline extended along the partially abandoned ROW of way that heads due north from the existing rail spine between the Superior and Windermere stops.  That would mean less new track/catenary construction, plus it would tie Collinwood to UC as well as downtown (via an admittedly long route) and provide one seat ride from East Side to West Side.

Interesting idea. But if that were done, where would you propose the line go once it gets north of Coit Rd?

 

Personally, I'd rather see the Red line extended along its current ROW out to the Euclid park-n-ride. Sure it would take twice as long to get from there to downtown as a bus, or a commuter train (like what I mentioned a few paragraphs ago) but it would be a one seat ride from the NE corner of the county to University Circle. Right now the fastest way to get from Euclid to UC on RTA is via downtown, which has always seemed insane to me.

Sounds good.  Could someone draw up (maybe KJP already has one) a map for such a red line extension?

Are you saying there's no neighborhood development potential between downtown and Collinwood? Asiatown? St Clair-Superior? Glenville? Connecting these and everything else to employment centers associated with the new port? Nothing? I disagree... I think this is the ripest development corridor we have going. It's the one that would gain the most from a new rail line. I think the lack of rail service to downtown is a glaring problem with these neighborhoods and they would each gain tremendously from it... moreso the further out they are.

 

I've been assuming that when people mention extending the WFL, they mean extending it along the existing rail ROW east of the WFL's terminus.  Assembling a new ROW would send the costs sky high.  Running vehicles on St. Clair wouldn't be so bad, but would be expensive and operating speeds wouldn't be much better than bus.

 

So assuming that existing ROW is used, I see pretty much zero benefit to Asiatown and St. Clair-Superior; rail stations would not be very close to residents, and, I'd guess, not competitive with bus service.  Northern Glenville would see some benefit, but only a small slice of it.  Bratenahl would be completely indifferent or hostile.  Even the benefits to Collinwood would be pretty limited, because walk-up ridership would be pretty low given the land use around the tracks, so you'd be relying on park and ride lots.  I guess I just disagree that this a corridor with potential just waiting to be unlocked with this transit plan.

 

Grumpy, your Red Line extension works for me- my only point is that there are probably cheaper or better alternatives for providing rail service to Collinwood and points east than extending the WFL.

Grumpy, your Red Line extension works for me- my only point is that there are probably cheaper or better alternatives for providing rail service to Collinwood and points east than extending the WFL.

I'm not suggesting extending the WFL further east than E 105th. There's just too many issues with finding a right of way. In fact, even then, it would probably be more expensive than its worth. I'd much rather see a commuter rail line operating to the east, with stops in/near Collinwood.

 

The sad thing to me is in 1985 RTA tested out a commuter "railbus" on this very route. The test was a success, by most accounts, but RTA said the idea needed "further study".

I'm quickly becoming sold on the red line extension.  That might provide the most bang for our buck, including UC in the route is a big deal, and East Cleveland needs help as much as anyone.   

 

I still see benefit to the WFL extension as well, and still think the goal should be to have them meet up at some point.  Agreed that nearer neighborhoods would have much less to gain.  But the same goes for all areas served by all trains, because trains can't jump.  How many people get off any of the east side routes until after 79th?  Not many, but that doesn't mean much.  It's primarily to serve people 100+ blocks out... so I might only put a handful of stops.  Maybe one for 55th, one for Glenville, one for Collinwood, and one for Euclid.

 

True, any WFL extension would likely be a west-side style park n' ride.  But isn't that RTA's busiest rail line?  It barely touches anything residential, yet it's packed to the gills each day.  So I don't think potential ridership can be measured by immediate proximity to homes.  Also, don't forget the new port area.  Long-term this could become a major employment center, and having rail service there means it's connected to potential employees along the entire system.  This obviously doesn't come into play for a while, so in the end it probably makes sense to extend the red line first.

 

Let's do it. 

I haven't proposed a Red Line extension, but RTA has on two potential routes:

 

1. branch off Red Line at Superior Station and head north next to CSX mainline using former Cleveland Union Terminal RR right of way, terminate branch in the vicinity of Collinwood Yards;

2. extend existing Red Line from Windermere Station east next to NS mainline (abutments were built in the 1920s in East Cleveland for bridging numerous streets in anticipation of such a transit/commuter line), with the Red Line terminating at/near Euclid Square Mall.

 

Two years ago I investigating using the existing NS line through University Circle, East Cleveland, Euclid, Willoughby, Mentor and Painesville for a downtown-Painesville commuter rail service. This assumed a Tower City Station (see below). A mostly rush-hour only service "might" cost $34 million to startup, or an all-day service with hourly headways off-peak and half-hour service during the rush hours "might" cost $122 million. I did not calculate an annual operating subsidy, but $5 million to $10 million for the startup service and $15 million to $25 million for the all-day service could be in the ballpark.

 

I proposed these eight stations:

Tower City Ctr

University Circle

Windermere

Highland-Dille

Euclid Park-n-Ride

Willoughby

Mentor - SR615

Painesville

 

 

KJP, I like your idea. I had to draw it on Google Earth and spend a few minutes trying to find reasons to dislike it compared with a straight shot in on the tracks next to 90 before I started warming up to it, but I do understand why you picked that routing. I don’t like that the route adds a couple miles (if we say 2 miles out of the way at an average speed of 30 mph, that means an extra 4 minutes, but I don’t know if we could expect an average of 30mph through there) and I really don’t like that the route ends in Tower City (the Amshak may be a crappy excuse for a station, but I prefer its location).

 

What I do like is that you’re picking up a significant number of people in the east side suburbs that work in the University Circle area, that currently have no good option for getting there. Sure extending the Red line would get the people in Euclid (and between Euclid and Windermere), but by routing the commuter route through UC you avoid the need for a red line extension, plus you give the people in Lake county a way to get to that side of town. On top of that this could serve as a sort of express route for people going all the way from Windermere to Tower City.

 

My only criticism is I think you need a station between Euclid and Willoughby. That’s a 6.5 mile stretch through what is one of the most densely populated parts of Lake County. Consider that Laketran is currently providing commuter bus service from Wickliffe with the route 12, and it’s consistently one of the busiest routes Laketran offers.

 

I like Tower City better because it's the center of Cleveland transit and because downtown employment maps show it has more workers within 1,000 feet than the lakefront site. And if the Waterfront Line walkway to East 9th Street (a very inhospital environment in winter) can't be used, then we're talking a significant investment to link the Amtrak station to the city via a climate-protected walkway (such as linking into the convention center).

 

I suppose a stop could be added in the Euclid-Willoughby stretch.

 

Another reason why I like this route is because NS is more friendly to passenger trains than CSX, and the NS line has about half the number of freight trains than CSX (60 vs 30 daily). If you double-track the few sections of NS that aren't, you end up with a very high capacity line that can accommodate frequent commuter rail service.

KJP -- yet another reason to extend the malls over the tracks to connect the new MedMart to a rail station, moving Amtrak east and closer to more businesses.

I dunno wtf happened to the post I thought I was responding to, but I can't find it now. Sorry

Where is the video? It must have been removed. Anyway, if anyone wants to see it, just email me privately.

Where is the video?

 

 

Somebody must have moved it to "Who killed Cleveland's streetcars." I watched it, thought it was neat, and typed a comment. By the time I hit submit, it was gone. But I found it.

RnR, what you say completely supports why I think Commuter Rail Service will always be a hard sell anywhere in Ohio.  It is not at all time consuming to drive anywhere in Ohio Cities.  When people are making there choice on commuting patterns, they are going to choose the quickest option, simply because our lives demand that.  When I lived in Chicago for a couple years, I always took trains because it was quicker then sitting in bumper to bumper traffic going from Glen Ellyn on 88 to 290 every morning.

 

Sadly enough, there are not enough people in Ohio that are environmentally friendly enough to support this service.  I would love rail to come to Ohio, because I think it will be needed in the future.  But, getting people to pay for it by taking it, I think, will be a difficult sell.  At this point, time wise, it is a more inefficient way of travel. 

 

I apologize if I offend you KJP, but these are some of my thoughts and worries about commuter rail service in Ohio.

I apologize if I offend you KJP, but these are some of my thoughts and worries about commuter rail service in Ohio.

 

I'm not offended. You are entitled to your opinion. But the fact is that travelers make their first modal decision based on cost, then frequency of service, then reliability, then travel time. That's why RTA's park-n-ride flier buses on the Interstates do pretty well, even though they get don't offer travel time benefit over driving because they travel the same primary roads as cars.

 

And your assumption is that everyone who commutes has a car. They don't. Depending on the city, 2-25 percent of households in Cuyahoga County don't have cars. Many households that have a car must share it among more than one wage earner. And many of those cars aren't well maintained. Even many commuters who have a car can't afford to own it, but have to have one because there are few alternatives.

 

Also, I suspect there are a number of households which have two cars but only need one if there were more and better alternatives to driving. Does it make financial sense to own two cars (each costing $6,000-$10,000 per year) when each car is used only 1-2 hours per day in a household that earns just $40,000 to $60,000 per year? What would the impact be on our local economy if we could spend the money saved from getting rid of that second car? Studies from Portland, Ore. show that the savings causes people to spend more locally, improve their homes, increase their savings, etc. etc.

 

These are the facts, gotribe. That's why I'm not offended by your opinion.

RnR, what you say completely supports why I think Commuter Rail Service will always be a hard sell anywhere in Ohio. It is not at all time consuming to drive anywhere in Ohio Cities. When people are making there choice on commuting patterns, they are going to choose the quickest option, simply because our lives demand that. When I lived in Chicago for a couple years, I always took trains because it was quicker then sitting in bumper to bumper traffic going from Glen Ellyn on 88 to 290 every morning.

 

Sadly enough, there are not enough people in Ohio that are environmentally friendly enough to support this service. I would love rail to come to Ohio, because I think it will be needed in the future. But, getting people to pay for it by taking it, I think, will be a difficult sell. At this point, time wise, it is a more inefficient way of travel.

 

I apologize if I offend you KJP, but these are some of my thoughts and worries about commuter rail service in Ohio.

 

I think you're mixing apples to oranges; the Health Line is a totally diff service serving a much diff clientele as opposed to Commuter rail.  Also, diff parts of the state are different.  Cleveland, though far from perfect, is more open to commuter rail, generally, than Cincy or Columbus.

RnR, what you say completely supports why I think Commuter Rail Service will always be a hard sell anywhere in Ohio.  It is not at all time consuming to drive anywhere in Ohio Cities.... 

 

Sadly enough, there are not enough people in Ohio that are environmentally friendly enough to support this service.... 

 

All you have to do to figure out why people don't take rail as much is look at the Rapid Map and see where it goes.  Then look at any other major city with expansive subway networks, see how much more area it covers, and there's your answer. 

 

Rail lines are like telephones:  they are only as useful as they are abundant.

 

I'm sure people would think telephones were a bad idea too if you had no one to call.  Instead the government made sure every house had access to a phone line.  Think if they did the same for rail...

But some cities have just one line that carries more than RTA's entire rail system. So the better answer is:  get out a satellite map of each station stop and draw a concentric circle around it. If you don't have many housing units, shops, employers etc. with safe, direct and attractive pedestrian routes within a 1,500-foot (and especially 500-foot) radius of the station, you might as well run the rail line through a countryside or an industrial wasteland -- which is what most of the Red lines goes through (thanks to the poor decision 50 years ago of building along freight railroad tracks in industrial areas). And the density along the Green Line (except for Shaker Square) is piss poor.

 

Ironically, those abandoned industrial areas offer opportunities for rebirth, but only if we can get the money to clean up those properties and redevelop them with transit- and pedestrian-friendly design principles. Then I think the Red Line would rock.

^Very true KJP... of course the other main problem with the red line and that potential rebirth is that in addition to industrial wasteland it primarily travels through real or percieved ghettos.  So it is going to be pretty difficult at this point to attract the private investment that will be needed for that rebirth.

 

I've always said the problem with cleveland's rail system, and reason for it's relatively poor performance, is that it doesn't go anywhere people want to go.  Airport, W.25th, Shaker Square... other than that it is basically a park and ride commuter rail line going through abandoned industrial areas with one downtown stop (and the very very nice, but not dense residential portion of the blue and green lines).

I think some of those East Side areas have become so vacant that it's no longer a ghetto. But you're right, the stigma is still there. If you tell someone you're moving to Grand Avenue off East 79th Street, they will probably ask you're insane -- even though you'll have as many neighbors as someone moving out to Amish Country.

 

Except for the stigma, soil contaminants and the occasional house or business still standing, it's "almost" competitive with the greenfields beyond the suburban fringe. I'm thinking of the area between the East 79th stations for the Red Line and the Blue/Green Line. Then there's the long stretch of ruralness between the Red Line's East 79th and East 105th/Quincy stations. It's a lovely ride in the countryside...

 

Developers like Ari Maron and Nate Zaremba have said they want to develop around the Red Line -- especially Maron. He sees East 4th, University Circle's Uptown and Ohio City Market Square area as the start of creating better destinations along the Red Line. That's a great start, and there's a lot more left to do.

true true... that's why I said both real and percieved when it comes to the ghetto... some of it still is, some of it is just an abandoned wasteland but will still be REALLY difficult to attract private development due to the stigma you mention.

OK, here's one that may actually be in the planning hopper... extending either the Red Line or the HealthLine to Euclid. I don't know what the eastern endpoint would be, but I would assume something in the vicinity of Euclid Square Mall which would make that a prime redevelopment site.

 

Why a Red Line extension makes sense:

 

> Its speed means it will work as a park-n-ride for NE Cuyahoga County and Lake County commuters bound for downtown or the airport.

> To a lesser extent, the Red Line might be used a little bit for commuting to some University Circle destinations, namely to CWRU and University Hospitals which are a short walk from the rail line. The Red Line would probably be a faster route from NE parts of the county to UC than I-90/MLK or Euclid Avenue.

> Existing rail transit is already in place, and the extension would strengthen a weak east-side Red Line and turn the HealthLine into a feeder/local distributor.

> Fast reverse commutes from the city out to the industries and employers in Euclid would be possible.

> The Windermere Station as well as bridge abutments of the existing NS line were designed in anticipation of extending the Red Line eastward someday.

> The Red Line, if built next to the NS line, would be a short walk from Euclid Avenue business districts.

 

Why the Red Line extension might NOT make sense:

 

> Start up cost, which would likely be built next to the elevated NS rail line. That's a lot of new bridges over sidestreets! Another option is to route the Red Line north along the CSX line, but could use the old Cleveland Union Terminal right of way. But then extending it east past CSX's busy Collinwood Yards is a big challenge.

> Operating costs might rise, which RTA cannot afford unless RTA were to capture increases in property values around stations via tax-increment financing.

> Accessing industries in Euclid with rail is problematic since stations are likely to be spaced 1 to 1.5 miles apart vs only several blocks apart for a HealthLine extension.

> Accessing University Circle and downtown employers by rail is problematic because the rail line serves the edges of those districts.

 

Why a HealthLine extension makes sense:

 

> Lower start-up costs when compared to rail.

> Operating costs would probably also be less expensive compared to rail.

> Frequent bus stops makes business districts, industries and employers along Euclid Avenue more accessible.

> Would probably be successful as a park-n-ride for NE Cuyahoga County and Lake County residents bound for University Circle.

> Existing bus rapid transit vehicles and support/maintenance facilities are in place, which the extension could utilize without any/much expansion.

> Bus rapid transit would likely be faster than the existing #28 bus route.

> Would provide a single-seat bus route from Euclid to downtown Cleveland.

 

Why a HealthLine extension might NOT make sense:

 

> The purpose of the HealthLine would need to be more clearly defined.

> As a park-n-ride service, even with signal prioritization, a bus rapid transit service would still be very slow from Euclid to downtown, and likely could not offer faster service than the existing park-n-ride flyer buses on I-90.

> It would also be slower than rail for park-n-ride service to University Circle.

> Depending on the extent of construction, disruption to already financially vulnerable businesses along Euclid Avenue could be significant.

 

Here's a map to give an overview of the area....

 

If I recall, the weird way they built the newer Stokes/Windermere terminal makes it more difficult to extend NE-ward; that the EB track dead-ends into the building meaning an expensive alteration would be needed (why do we always make things so difficult for passenger rail in this town?  exhibit A: the Stokes tower at Tower City) ...

 

////

 

My wishes for rail are much modest than they used to be: just FINISH what's on the table now:

 

- build the Blue Line extension across to Northfield (and maybe, ... maybe, someday, a North Randall or Chagrin Highlands ext. can be built... someday.

 

- build the Little Italy station; (the longer projects sit in this town, the less chance they have to get down, and this one's not been getting much attention while other RTA projects have moved forward; and that worries me)..

 

- West Shore Commuter rail -- preferably as an expansion of the Red Line -- either entirely or partially electrified or w/ dual-mode, self-propelled cars-- better to enter Tower City to allow better frequency for this higher density route, than switching to the congested 2-track line along West lake shore (throat) while, also, having to wait for/deal with the Cuyahoga lift bridge in the Flats... Lakewood, as the 3rd most densly populated city btn NYC & Chicago deserves (at least) 2 stations -- Gold Coast/W. 117th + downtown Lakewood, along w/ more frequent, rapid transit type service, esp at rush hour...

 

- Amtrak's 4 Ohio Hub spokes, including some commuter rail development (ie, possibly all the way to Pittsburgh on the SE leg);

 

- start, now, seriously designing a North Coast mulimodal (Amtrak, Commuter, RTA Waterfront Line) terminal, preferably connected to the new MMPI Conv. Center.

 

- a Euclid-E.55 Amtrak/commuter station to interface w/ the Health Line.

 

- and perhaps most importantly: start planning for a new multi-county (true) regional transit authority to centralize/run commuter rail (and buses).

 

... One WISH LIST RAPID EXPANSION: Extend the WFL along the East Lake shore to at least E. 88 (which, btw, is part of the CPC lakeshore plan).  It could help stimulate high-density residential growth along the Lake.

OK, here's one that may actually be in the planning hopper... extending either the Red Line or the HealthLine to Euclid. I don't know what the eastern endpoint would be, but I would assume something in the vicinity of Euclid Square Mall which would make that a prime redevelopment site.

As far as the Healthline, Euclid Park and Ride lot to Windermere on Euclid is about 6.3 miles, only about half a mile shorter than the entire current Healthline. So someone thinks that essentially doubling the length of the route would be worthwhile? I doubt it. It would take the Healthline about half an hour just to get to Windermere, plus an extra 10-12 minutes to get to UC. So 40 to 45 minutes total. Not bad, but frankly not a big improvement over a traditional bus, and considering the cost I would question if this is worth the investment.

 

As for the Red line, I like the idea, assuming it takes the NS ROW in your map. (As you said, if they take the CSX ROW, there's no way around the Collinwood Yard.) The Red line extension would require enormous capital expenses to get started because of the new bridges required, and all the catenaries, plus it would hurt operating costs as a result of maintenance and inspections of that new capital. On top of that, because the homes and businesses aren't clumped together in high density pockets, I think that they'd be better served by the bus down Euclid; irregardless of whether that bus happens to be a Healthline or the 28. To me that means that you're basically turning this Red Line Extension into a Commuter route from the Euclid Park and Ride, and parts of Collinwood to UC and by extension Downtown. If you're going to use it like a commuter route, why not just get a commuter route?

 

Which brings me to what we discussed a couple pages ago and which I've given some thought to since. A commuter rail route on the NS line makes a whole lot more sense than either of these options to me. It would be cheaper to build as the tracks are already there, plus if it gets built around the same time as the West Side Commuter train you're already going to have a maintenance facility of some kind for the trains, and a station downtown.

 

- start planning for a new multi-county (true) regional transit authority to centralize/run commuter rail (and buses).

I agree that this would be great to have, but I think that it isn't going to happen anytime soon, but with cooperation between the various county transit agencies, we can work around it.

 

In my opinion the biggest reason that we don't already have a regional transit authority is because of Ohio's screwed up funding system for them. The lion's share of the funding is expected to come from county sales taxes, which seems sensible except that sprawl is shifting more and more people out of the urban counties. The surrounding counties have been built up to be auto friendly, and so people in surrounding counties don't use public transit as much. Since they don't use transit as much, they don't want to pay as much for transit, so therefore the surrounding counties have a lower percentage of sales tax going toward transit. As a result of the difference in sales tax percentages, there is a strong resistance to any merger of various transit agencies as the suburban counties don't want to pay as high a percentage of sales tax, and the urban counties don't want to subsidize service to the suburban counties. On top of that, no one wants to feel that there tax dollars are going toward providing service to someone somewhere else.

 

The only way that we could solve this problem is to have transit funded at a level higher than the county. Without creating some form of regional government, I think the only way that we are going to get a regional transit system is with significant state funds. If the state provided say 50% of the operating funds for the public transit authories in Ohio, then we could lower the sales tax in Cuyahoga county to offset the tax increase required to pay for the state funding, thus making it a wash for Cuyahoga county residents, and a very minor increase for suburban counties.

 

As I'm too much of a pessimist to believe we'll ever actually get this to happen, I think we need as an intermediate step, to require our county transit authorities to work together better. As an example, I currently live in Lake County, but work Cleveland, so I am a regular rider of both RTA and Laketran. My problem with this is that if I get a monthly pass for RTA, I can't use it on Laketran; and if I get a monthly pass for Laketran, I can't use it on RTA. As a first step toward working cooperatively, I'd like to suggest that RTA, Laketran, Lorain County Transit, and Summit Metro (plus any others that I missed) get together and come up with one type of monthly, weekly and daily pass that will be accepted by all of them. All of these agencies' regular fares are reasonably similar in price (as far as I know) so it shouldn't be terribly difficult to do this.

 

- build the Blue Line extension across to Northfield (and maybe, ... maybe, someday, a North Randall or Chagrin Highlands ext. can be built... someday.

 

North Randall could work if a transit oriented development went in where the mall is, but I don't think Chagrin Highlands is at all light rail friendly.

 

- West Shore Commuter rail -- preferably as an expansion of the Red Line -- either entirely or partially electrified or w/ dual-mode, self-propelled cars-- better to enter Tower City to allow better frequency for this higher density route, than switching to the congested 2-track line along West lake shore (throat) while, also, having to wait for/deal with the Cuyahoga lift bridge in the Flats... Lakewood, as the 3rd most densly populated city btn NYC & Chicago deserves (at least) 2 stations -- Gold Coast/W. 117th + downtown Lakewood, along w/ more frequent, rapid transit type service, esp at rush hour...

I think we can get commuter rail built much faster and cheaper by using traditional diesel powered trains, then as the price of diesel goes up we can electrify. I think it would be to hard to overcome the capital cost of electrification with fuel costs as low as they currently are.

 

- Amtrak's 4 Ohio Hub spokes, including some commuter rail development (ie, possibly all the way to Pittsburgh on the SE leg);

I agree with you, though Pittsburgh is too far for commuter rail. Perhaps to Youngstown.

 

- start, now, seriously designing a North Coast mulimodal (Amtrak, Commuter, RTA Waterfront Line) terminal, preferably connected to the new MMPI Conv. Center.

Didn't you just say you wanted the commuter train to go to Tower City?  :-D

If I recall, the weird way they built the newer Stokes/Windermere terminal makes it more difficult to extend NE-ward; that the EB track dead-ends into the building meaning an expensive alteration would be needed (why do we always make things so difficult for passenger rail in this town? exhibit A: the Stokes tower at Tower City) ...

 

Exact opposite. The way it was designed was to allow an eastward extension. Look on a satellite/aerial/birdseye site like bing.com or googlemaps and you'll see what I mean.

 

If you're going to use it like a commuter route, why not just get a commuter route?

 

 

My thought process was heading in that direction last evening while thinking about this. In fact, I would use this project to relocate NS freight trains to the CSX right of way, including laying additional track. There is room around the north side of Collinwood Yard to move CSX trains and then put NS trains on what has been CSX's through tracks around the south edge of Collinwood Yard. NS trains could return to their tracks where the CSX and NS lines begin running adjacent to each other in Willowick. Or in the long term, NS trains can stay on the CSX right of way and make the NS line 110 mph passenger-only all the way to Buffalo. It would be great if a transit project could pay for some of the largest capital improvements necessary to make this happen.

 

With the freed-up NS corridor between East Cleveland and Willowick, I would look at running either Red Line Rapid transit train over it -- or convert the NS into a commuter rail corridor using lightweight, dual-mode, self-propelled rail cars that operate as diesel trains or under electrical catenary wires. That way they might be able to operate from Lake County to Lorain County via Tower City Center.

How much would be involved in moving around the tracks as you suggest? I ask because while moving the NS trains and having it passenger only seems like a good eventual goal, as an intermediate step wouldn't it make sense to just have a commuter train that only runs during rush hour (and have NS run freight on the line the rest of the day)? It sure sounds a lot cheaper to me (but I have no idea what these things cost) and therefore more likely to get off the ground, and then we could upgrade the service at a later time after the service has been proven successful. Incremental steps to prove the validity of the idea to the locals and the politicians (and therefore build their support) seems the way to go.

That should be an option for consideration. It might well perform the best compared to the other options. But the first step in any federal planning process is an alternatives analysis. So these kinds of options would be looked at, if that's what the public meetings during the initial scoping process indicate.

I agree with you, though Pittsburgh is too far for commuter rail. Perhaps to Youngstown.

 

Grumpy, I agree -- I was being a tad tongue 'n cheek.  A commuter authority wouldn't run such a line... However, even if Amtrak is the only operator over the line, there will probably be a number of commuters between the 2 cities... An ideal model is the Philadelphia-Harrisburg line; 2 large metro areas 100 miles apart.  (Cleve & Pitts are 120 miles apart)... The Harrisburg route was faltering w/ 6 trains per day until Gov. Rendell (yeah, another Dem seriously advancing passenger rail) fixed up the track and electric wires, and now this route has 13 round trips daily -- not to mention that trains have been speeded up to 110 MPH and beyond, knocking, on avg, 15-20 mins off the old trip.  I was on it recently, and it feels a lot like the Northeast Corridor service, only w/ hand-me-down push-pull electric equipment (the Harrisburg trains reverse at Philly's 30th St. Station and complete the leg into NYC's Penn Station  ridership is way up. .. I know Philly folks who commute daily over the route to jobs in the State Capital...

 

The Cleve - Pittsburgh route, like this one, would probably have lots of commuters to/from the several towns in between (ie Youngstown)...

I assume we don't have the use of any Sim City cheat codes for this project. I will also add the stipulation that I spend 90% of my time on the west side so my additions will heavily favor that part of town, and projects such as station renovations and the Chagrin extension are not listed.

 

FIVE YEAR PLAN:

 

(1) Public Square:

Red is a car lane, Orange is a bus lane, Yellow is the yellow line on the road, green is gained park space, median barrier.

Assuming the stories about not being able to reroute Superior because its a 'highway', close down Ontario and make it into two halves as opposed to four quarters.  You gain a fair amount of green space, and only need three traffic lights (keeping the one on Euclid for signal prioritization. Note the buses running down the center of Superior for...:

 

(2) Westside BRT: While BRT on Clifton would be nice, after the Lakewood/Rocky River border it has almost zero population on the north side. I like Lorain somewhat better, but my favorite choice is Detroit, likely all the way to Crocker Park. Space the stops out a bit further as you get out into Westlake to help make the whole system faster. Back in the east direction, continue the pattern down Superior through to E 55th.

 

(3) Commuter Rail: Yes make the Lorain Commuter Rail happen already. Send it the other way as well to Painesville if you can snag a few more federal dollars for the effort.

 

This gives us a transit system a little more spread out:

 

Could you make the lines thicker? They're very hard to see on the larger map. Thanks.

It's being discussed at GCRTA as a long-range planning issue, so nothing is likely to happen anytime soon. But we've chatted about it at UO at:

 

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,2768.msg426624.html#msg426624

 

BTW, the Railbus demonstration was in the spring of 1985. And the Norfolk Southern right of way it used is busier today than it was then, hosting about 20 freight trains per day. If the Red Line were extended, including with some express trips, it might eliminate the need for the 239, some Laketran express buses, and possibly allow RTA's 28 bus to reduce some trips. I don't know if that's enough to offset the added operating cost of the rail line, but it might be worth looking at.

 

I encourage that discussion to take place at the above link so we can focus on day-to-day transit issues here.

Just to pick your brain since you know more about transit issues than anyone else I know, if the Rail bus test in 1985 was somewhat successful (as most people I've talked to about it describe it), why did RTA never follow it up with any further planning, or actual construction?

Sorry, but I don't see BRT running out Detroit past old town Rocky River or maybe to around the high school.

 

I do like your ideas for Public Square.

Just to pick your brain since you know more about transit issues than anyone else I know, if the Rail bus test in 1985 was somewhat successful (as most people I've talked to about it describe it), why did RTA never follow it up with any further planning, or actual construction?

 

Thanks, but that's a lot of pressure to put on me!

 

RTA put a plan together for commuter rail but the agency was going through an unfortunate series of controversies in those years that prevented any long-range projects not already in the hopper (ie: Dual Hub) from getting anywhere.....

http://www-catalog.cpl.org/CLENIX?S=REGIONAL+TRANSIT+AUTHORITY+1985

http://www-catalog.cpl.org/CLENIX?S=REGIONAL+TRANSIT+AUTHORITY+1986

http://www-catalog.cpl.org/CLENIX?S=REGIONAL+TRANSIT+AUTHORITY+1987

http://www-catalog.cpl.org/CLENIX?S=REGIONAL+TRANSIT+AUTHORITY+1988

 

Things began to calm starting in 1988 when Ron Tober was brought in as general manager. Lake County officials didn't want to wait for RTA to get its act together, but as a small transit agency Laketran couldn't afford pursuing commuter rail. So it started a bunch of commuter express routes which continue to this day. Tober did try to pursue commuter rail, including some demo trains in 1997 out to Lake County and to Lorain County. But the Conrail split and Kucinich put the kibosh on that.

Wow, to think that in the 34 years of RTA, there's been only one GM with a true and positive vision for transit: Ron Tober... and we let him get away (to develop Charlotte, NC's LRT and commuter rail)... we're still waiting for commuter rail here in NEO.

You may have already saw this...

 

2010-2025 Major Investment Project Descriptions

 

Waterfront Line Extension

This project would extend the Waterfront Line (WFL) from its current terminus near the Cleveland Municipal Parking lot near the Shoreway and E. 13th Street. The purpose would be to improve downtown access to RTA's rail system in downtown Cleveland. One alignment being considered extends the line southeast from its current terminus through Downtown past Playhouse Square and Tri-C's main campus, where it would reconnect with the Red/Blue/Green Line Joint Area in the vicinity of E. 30th Street and the Main Post Office.

This extension would “complete the loop” initiated by the Waterfront Line segment built in 1996 and help establish a more effective downtown transit distribution system. The initial alignment options would link the Euclid Corridor Transportation Project (ECTP), a BRT project, with the Flats, a new convention center, North Coast Harbor, Playhouse Square, Cleveland State University and Cuyahoga Community College.

The Alternative's Analysis study for this extension has been completed. The Locally Preferred Alternative (LPA) process has not started because of a major planning effort currently underway along the Lakefront. The Waterfront Line is a vital part of that plan and further study of its extension will proceed after the City comes to a consensus on what the Lakefront plan will be. The current City of Cleveland administration will assist in determining its future. Additionally, Cleveland's Lakefront Plan is considering extending the Waterfront Line east along the lakefront as far as East 88th Street and possibly out to Collinwood, where significant public and private sector development investments continue to be targeted. This extension is illustrated in the Chapter 1 section describing plans by others. This alternative was not included in RTA’s Waterfront Line Extension study and would need a separate FTA-compliant evaluation.

56

 

Blue Line Extension

The Blue Line would be extended by approximately 2 miles in order to improve access for Clevelanders to new jobs being located in and around the 600-acre Chagrin Highlands development near Harvard Road and I-271 over the next 25 years. The proposed route leaves the current terminus at Warrensville-Van Aken following Northfield Road south, and then turns east along Mill Creek Pond Dr., traveling parallel to Harvard Road. The line would terminate somewhere between Richmond and Green Roads, depending upon the area's development plans.

The initial technical study work for this extension is completed. RTA is working with the stakeholders to build consensus on the alignments and to raise the capital required to fund preliminary engineering. RTA is also working with the City of Cleveland Administration and the existing property owners to plan a transit-oriented development on the Chagrin Highlands Industrial Park. It is anticipated that this effort would take 24 months once underway. The locally preferred alternative will not be selected until the community reaches consensus on future land uses and potential alignment(s) in the corridor, and when funds are identified for the preliminary engineering effort.

 

Red Line Extension

In 1968, Cleveland became the first city in the United States to link its Downtown Central Business District to a major airport with a direct rail connection. RTA is proud of that accomplishment and is studying ways to strengthen this strategic connection within its service region.

The Red Line Extension, now called the Southwest Corridor Project, started by looking at extending RTA’s Red Line west through Hopkins International Airport to serve the nearby I-X Center convention complex. Traveling further west, it would have served the cities of Brookpark and Berea and end in the vicinity of neighboring Lorain County, which is growing at a tremendous rate.

Early in the study process, it became clear that many residents of the City of Berea did not favor a rail extension that stopped in their city. It was then discovered that the real transportation issue was the connection of the Red Line to the new development around the airport. The airport campus itself had created so much development and related traffic that a more unique transportation solution was required.

The Red Line Southwest Corridor Project is analyzing the major Airport area traffic generators including the I-X Center, the Cleveland Hopkins Airport, Emerald Industrial Park, Cleveland Business Park, NASA/Glen Research Center and others. A transit improvement linking these destinations is being studied. Technical work was completed in January 2004. RTA management decided not to pursue the completion of the environmental process or the choosing of a locally preferred alternative until the Airport completes a masterplan for the development of its terminal and facilities.

 

http://www.riderta.com/pdf/transit2025/Transit_2025_March_2006_Final.pdf

The above post was relocated from the Railways section.

Like many people, I would like to see some form of Public transit on the bridge. Just a thought, couldn't the deck be remodeled to include rails for future Streetcar service, and a roadway for a guided Trolleybus system. For example,Westside routes that are heavily traveled, but do not justify any rail service at present. High volume routes to feed the Red Line or other lines.

Not sure if this was ever addressed, but does RTA have any long term plan to extend the Healthline's route further down Euclid Ave?

^Officially I'm pretty sure they don't. However there are rumors now and then.

Understandable. I think it would be great to have express service to eastern suburbs' with something resembling an urban center once you get past the Windemere station. Namely Willoughby and Painesville.