I think there's a bit of a semantic disconnect that the NPR piece doesn't do much to clarify. Much the criticism from the transit cognoscenti about "streetcars" is specifically about the transport drawbacks of running in mixed traffic and certain routing decisions, not streetcars per se (i.e. not the vehicle type). This recent Yonah Freemark NYT OpEd spells it out well: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/10/opinion/how-to-build-a-streetcar-that-works.html?_r=0

New Orleans streetcars carry an average of 23,000 riders per weekday -- nearly twice as many riders as GCRTA's Shaker/Waterfront lines that have dedicated rights of way and faster speeds. New Orleans has 22 route-miles compared to the Shaker/Waterfront LRT's 15 route-miles. Supportive land use is often more important than speed.

 

But it's an apples-to-oranges comparison as both systems were designed for different purposes.  By nature, the N.O. streetcar system, like most streetcars, is designed for short hop riding and not longer distance commuting into downtown as is the Shaker Lines were designed for.  The only roughly similar portion of the 2 systems, is the surface Shaker Square/Shaker Hts portion of the Blue/Green lines, and really only portions of the Blue line which does have retail/residential density massing around Lee Road (and Avalon/Ashby) and Farsnleigh/Lynnfield.  And I stress the word roughly...

Like the Euclid Avenue BRT: supportive land use trumps speed.

New Orleans streetcars carry an average of 23,000 riders per weekday -- nearly twice as many riders as GCRTA's Shaker/Waterfront lines that have dedicated rights of way and faster speeds. New Orleans has 22 route-miles compared to the Shaker/Waterfront LRT's 15 route-miles. Supportive land use is often more important than speed.

 

But it's an apples-to-oranges comparison as both systems were designed for different purposes.  By nature, the N.O. streetcar system, like most streetcars, is designed for short hop riding and not longer distance commuting into downtown as is the Shaker Lines were designed for.  The only roughly similar portion of the 2 systems, is the surface Shaker Square/Shaker Hts portion of the Blue/Green lines, and really only portions of the Blue line which does have retail/residential density massing around Lee Road (and Avalon/Ashby) and Farsnleigh/Lynnfield.  And I stress the word roughly...

 

The Blue/Green Lines were built for a different era; the WFL extension was built to serve bars in '90s.  The light-rail needs to cut directly through the CBD and really should have a west side loop as well.

Like the Euclid Avenue BRT: supportive land use trumps speed.

 

Supportive land use + speed = Toronto levels of transit use.

I saw that article on twitter, circulating amongst New Orelans twitter people.  They all liked the article and pretty much agreed with its premise, as do I.

 

My experience is anecdotal, but it is shared with most of my peers in New Orleans at least along the Canal street line.  It was resurrected about 15 years ago (the uptown streetcar never went out of existence).  I live on one end of the route, and work on the other end, about 3 miles away.

 

We would all rather have bus. 

 

The two main issues that make the street car SO SLOW (about 45 minutes in rush hour to traverse less than 3 miles) is the fact that the streetcar has to stop until all passengers have paid, while a bus can start up again while people are paying.  Also if there is there is a car in the neutral ground (median) a streetcar can not maneuver around them.  If there is an accident in the streetcar path, the entire system will grind to a halt.  (the backup system is to run buses).

 

 

 

My point is, if a community is going to spend money on a new transportation system, a streetcar without a dedicated path is a poor system to choose.  Its pretty, but its not very functional.  Perhaps some of the NOLA problems could be improved with better management, signal light coordination, better fare acceptance, but if would not fix the fundamental problems.  Light rail, BRT, or even more frequent bus service with proper shelters are far better choices in my opinion.

 

 

Edited to correct lots of dumb mistakes.

In transportation, nothing trumps speed.  That's the whole point of it.  Getting around isn't something we want to do, it's something we have to do, so the main goal will always be to minimize the time it consumes.  Logistics matter.  So I would agree that there's no sense in building a rail system that's slower than buses.

 

Land use needs to make sense no matter how the transit system is set up.  TOD is really just shorthand for fundamentally solid urban planning.

I'm reading Jarrett Walker's book Human Transit, he's a transit consultant that seems to favor transit systems that maximize your freedom, you can get to almost anywhere, anytime, and its a good use of your time. So, blur out the mode/vehicle/the-technology-under-the-floor, and focus on growing the "blob", the areas that can be reached within 15 / 30 / 45 minutes. 15 minutes - quick enough for errand or grab lunch, 30 minutes - commute tolerance, 45 minutes - once a week special trip. The most effective "technology under the floor" should prevail, and the technology should be an after thought to the goal of providing transit service. One city in Germany for instance, has customized their trains and busses to all have identical interiors. Same interior, same upholstery, same digital signage, people didn't mind using them interchangeably.

 

One additional thing that Jarrett Walker brought up in a (YouTube) presentation is that Canadian transit is more effective not primarily through special technology, but through sheer quantity. So, planners north of the border "get it" more than has traditionally been the case in the US for most cities. More buses, more trains, more frequent service. This means more operating costs, but people know they can depend on it because of its frequent service, so more ridership. (See attached images, one is ridership per capita comparing similar US/Canadian cities, and the other is service hours, pretty strong correlation). Personally, I have said to myself, that for getting to the recent BriteWinter festival in Flats West, I didn't think taking the Red Line to Tower City, transfer to Waterfront, and get off at Settler's Landing to catch a shuttle to Flats West for a festival would be the best use of my time, because I don't trust that the waterfront will be there shortly after I arrive. If I'm going to have to wait 10+ minutes, then I could have gotten off at W25th and walked. Or, perhaps even better, if the 26 was faster / more frequent all the time, then we could have just walked the 5 minutes to catch that. And since its a festival, I'll be out late, can I trust that it can get me home... We ended up driving, and attempting to park, huge mistake.

 

I think the timetables / pamphlet for RTA bus routes are a chore to read. So if I ever deviate from my typical route, I have to rely on Google Maps / Transit App to figure out the best route. I can barely understand the bus map, or the time tables. But would prefer something like frequent service. This bus has 15 minute headways starting at 0 / 15 / 30 / 45, and your stop is +3.. Thus do your own math: 3 / 18 / 33 / 48.

 

I'm annoyed that every 4th time I go through a turnstyle, the machine has a card read error. Should we crowd-fund a Smart Card Trust Fund, and ask people to add a dollar every time they get bit by card read error?

 

Is anyone aware of a "stylized" full network transit map for RTA? By stylized, I mean simplified like the Rapid map, but for bus+BRT+rapids. And perhaps even indicating the frequency of a route.

 

Lastly, Jarrett Walker will be in Cleveland at the Old Stone Church on March 2 to give a presentation.

Like the Euclid Avenue BRT: supportive land use trumps speed.

 

Supportive land use + speed = Toronto levels of transit use.

 

And, as you pointed out, the New Orleans streetcar.

In transportation, nothing trumps speed.  That's the whole point of it. 

 

I disagree. If that were the case I'd never take the Red Line Downtown from Lakewood. I'd drive.

Cost is a bigger factor.

Alright:

 

If you could get one major project implemented, which would it be?

 

I'd break off the Blue Line at about E. 110th and run it north to the Woodhill-Quincy Circle, connecting to the Red Line at the 105th station and proceeding north where 103rd is now to Cedar Avenue.

If I had to pick one recently proposed transit project, it would be Lorain-Aurora commuter rail. It would address more of what ails the region on a larger scale and for less capital investment than any other transit project. It could be the keynote project of a truly regional (multi-county) transportation system. It was the highest rated of the five commuter rail routes proposed by NOACA 15 years ago. It would provide fast transit access to the region's largest employment center. It would make downtown Cleveland more attractive for employers to locate there and thus be accessible to city residents via existing urban transit lines too. It would provide fast transit access to suburban jobs. It would bypass the region's most congested Interstate (480). And it could stimulate public support for other transit improvements, including a Blue Line expanded to run from North Randall to University Circle, a big-city multi-modal transportation center (possibly located instead at Tower City), a downtown rail loop, and additional commuter rail lines.

If I had to pick one recently planned rail project, it would be Lorain-Aurora commuter rail. It would address more of what ails the region than any other transit project. It could be the keynote project of a truly regional (multi-county) transportation system. It was the highest rated of the five commuter rail routes proposed by NOACA 15 years ago. It would provide fast transit access to the region's largest employment center. It would make downtown Cleveland more attractive for employers to locate there and thus be accessible via existing urban transit lines too. It would provide fast transit access to suburban jobs. It would bypass the region's most congested Interstate (480). And it could stimulate public support for other transit improvements.

 

Wow, I picked a strictly urban/inner ring project, you picked a suburban.  Just goes to show one should never "assume".  :)

 

Needless to say I like your idea too.  I presume it would hook up with Summit County's system somewhere.

Wow, I picked a strictly urban/inner ring project, you picked a suburban.  Just goes to show one should never "assume".  :)

 

Needless to say I like your idea too.  I presume it would hook up with Summit County's system somewhere.

 

Mine is democratic. :) It's both urban and suburban. It affects multiple constituencies. Rich, poor, and some other group that used to be in between....

 

It could feed/be fed by Akron Metro RTA, Lorain County Transit, Western Reserve RTA in Youngstown-Warren, and Portage Area RTA. I would think Kent-Cleveland buses could instead run more frequently back-n-forth between Kent-Aurora and connect with the trains and still have the same number of vehicle service hours as they do now coming all the way up into Cleveland.

Saw this fascinating system of building tunnels quickly --

http://www.lockblock.com/arches.php

 

Claim to be able to build 1/4 mile per day.  Wasn't part of the Washington, DC metro built using cut-and-cover? 

 

Imagine if they could build 1/4 mile a day of subway tunnels into Cedar Hill and down Cedar from University Circle to Beachwood and disrupt businesses for only two or three weeks in each mile-long segment. . . .

 

 

Don't need a tunnel on Cedar hill. The streetcar right of way remains intact on the south side of Cedar Glen.

 

Euclid Avenue... Different story. ;)

Saw this fascinating system of building tunnels quickly --

http://www.lockblock.com/arches.php

 

Claim to be able to build 1/4 mile per day.  Wasn't part of the Washington, DC metro built using cut-and-cover? 

 

Imagine if they could build 1/4 mile a day of subway tunnels into Cedar Hill and down Cedar from University Circle to Beachwood and disrupt businesses for only two or three weeks in each mile-long segment. . . .

 

 

Looks like it's just the tunnel walls, not including excavation, base ground stabilization, track, wiring, etc.....

 

Still impressive.

Don't need a tunnel on Cedar hill. The streetcar right of way remains intact on the south side of Cedar Glen.

 

Euclid Avenue... Different story. ;)

 

A very different story... If you're going to connect, say, a future rail line replacing the HL up Euclid connecting to the abandoned streetcar through Cedar Glen and route up Cedar Hill alongside the roadway, you've got to build a subway.  No way that a surface route would be effective navigating even today's traffic -- let alone, the future traffic with projects coming online like One Univ Circle and the other high-density housing planned.

Redirected from the "What other states are doing" thread...

 

^Then maybe transit leaders in Ohio, esp from Cleveland, the largest and only multi-modal system, just aren't lobbying Columbus effectively enough. 

 

GCRTA is lobbying. Joe just doesn't trust his riders and allies enough to encourage them to lobby, too.

Redirected from the "What other states are doing" thread...

 

^Then maybe transit leaders in Ohio, esp from Cleveland, the largest and only multi-modal system, just aren't lobbying Columbus effectively enough. 

 

GCRTA is lobbying. Joe just doesn't trust his riders and allies enough to encourage them to lobby, too.

 

Now this...  This game of cat and mouse is getting more than absurd. I mean, how many excuses are we going to make for Joe C and his band of transit-men?

 

Q- Re the Red Line extension, $914M was tossed out as sum needed to extend the current rail line past Stokes-Windermere to Euclid Sq. Mall... That's is a lot of money, but relatively cheap these days for a 6-mile, heavy-rail transit extension (IIRC a BRT extension is btw 1/3 to 1/2 this expense). Shouldn't RTA move forward with the Red Line extension as their LPA?

 

A- No extension will happen.  RTA has too much red ink and too many expenses ahead, esp replacing Blue/Green rail cars and not enough money to do so. 

 

Q- So what's the current LPA?

 

A-It probably should be a combo of Red Line to, say, Coit Rd, and then BRT from there.

 

Q- So is that the LPA for the Euclid extension? Rail?  BRT?  Nothing?

 

A- No, RTA now is preferring to have no LPA.  Keeping its options open (maybe?)

 

Q- But in terms of holding rail-extension costs down, didn't RTA's planners state that the Red Line extension could be covered with currently unused/underused Red Line cars?

 

A- Yes they did, but it full expansion is still too expensive to even consider.

 

B – Wasn’t it determined, from multiple sources, that the Blue/Green cars will wear out by 2020 and with no source of money to replace them, the Blue and Green lines could close?

 

A- Joe C. (emphatically) denies this.

 

Q- But is RTA planning transit expansion to meet future needs, esp given the extremely low percentage of Greater Cleveland workers who use transit to get to work?

 

A- RTA isn’t planning any rail extension because they're too expensive and the system is broke.

 

Q- Well, given the Red Line extension’s (relatively reasonable) expense, and looking at other cities around the country building and planning rail transit expansion, why aren't the stakeholders (corporations along the route that would benefit from the expansion) involved in, say, P3 (public-private partnership) discussions?

 

A- That’s reasonable.

 

Q - You mean, the stakeholders weren't even at the Red Line extension planning meeting?

 

A- They were at the last planning meeting, but nobody seriously lobbied them.

 

Q- Really?  Why the heck not?

 

A-  (direct quote) "GCRTA doesn’t know how it to ask for help anymore. Joe & friends used to know. I don't know what changed."

 

Geezomighty, when will it stop!?  Cat 'n mouse, big time...

 

 

 

 

^ That was painful to read.

This will be even more painful.......

 

PA boosts #transit w/ $500m/yr. Philly invests in #rail transit. Developers invest $4B in Philly. Any questions? https://www.cpexecutive.com/post/drexel-and-brandywine-team-up-on-3-5b-project-in-philadelphia/

This will be even more painful.......

 

PA boosts #transit w/ $500m/yr. Philly invests in #rail transit. Developers invest $4B in Philly. Any questions? https://www.cpexecutive.com/post/drexel-and-brandywine-team-up-on-3-5b-project-in-philadelphia/

 

Philly certainly is in boom-mode.  Just last week I noticed these lots on the west side of 30th Street station and thought they would be developed.  Center City is seeing current and planned major developments on the east and west sides of the Schuykill River.  There is talk about running the Amtrak trains through either Jefferson or Suburban Stations as well.  Philly is clearly in a great location in the northeast corridor.

 

As a frequent traveler in the NE Corridor, Philly is my current favorite location. 

 

Also, this past week DC has seen major transit developments: the H Street Streetcar started service (the 1st 6 months are free to build ridership) and the suburb-to-suburb  Purple Line (New Carrolton-Prince George's County to Bethesda-Montgomery County) has been approved for construction.  16 mile light-rail line with 21 stations, including some with Metro connections, is expected to begin construction later this year. 

This will be even more painful.......

 

PA boosts #transit w/ $500m/yr. Philly invests in #rail transit. Developers invest $4B in Philly. Any questions? https://www.cpexecutive.com/post/drexel-and-brandywine-team-up-on-3-5b-project-in-philadelphia/

 

To add, as was shown earlier, SEPTA Regional Rail spur to King of Prussia Mall will be happening and an extension of the Broad Street (Orange Line) subway from its terminus in South Philly to the Navy Yards is expected to get a green light as well.  The Navy Yards is, as the name implies, the old Navy shipyard, currently developing as a major commercial center.  Urban Outfitters Hdq's, among other businesses, is located there.

This will be even more painful.......

 

PA boosts #transit w/ $500m/yr. Philly invests in #rail transit. Developers invest $4B in Philly. Any questions? https://www.cpexecutive.com/post/drexel-and-brandywine-team-up-on-3-5b-project-in-philadelphia/

 

KJP, are RTA and Calabrese even aware of other transit projects happening around the country and can they see the benefits of these projects?

 

KJP, are RTA and Calabrese even aware of other transit projects happening around the country and can they see the benefits of these projects?

 

Absolutely. They're well aware. But sometimes I think they feel like they're merely overseeing a once great city and transit system in hospice care.

 

But in RTA's defense, if there were developers waiting in the wings for redeveloping existing station areas, let alone the Noble/E152nd area, as well as Euclid Square Mall, projects like the Red Line extension would be easier sell.

 

Then again, I think Calabrese could organize and lead a transit-oriented development task force to undertake station-area and corridor-specific redevelopment master-planning. RTA could pledge its superior bonding capabilities (they offer a lower interest rate than the development-minded port authority does!) plus property acquisition and clean-up of environmentally troubled real estate near transit stops. In so doing, RTA could achieve their mission of improving access to jobs and services. If extending transit services to reach jobs is in their mission, then surely bringing jobs to existing transit routes should be, too.

 

Absolutely. They're well aware. But sometimes I think they feel like they're merely overseeing a once great city and transit system in hospice care.

 

But in RTA's defense, if there were developers waiting in the wings for redeveloping existing station areas, let alone the Noble/E152nd area, as well as Euclid Square Mall, projects like the Red Line extension would be easier sell.

 

Then again, I think Calabrese could organize and lead a transit-oriented development task force to undertake station-area and corridor-specific redevelopment master-planning. RTA could pledge its superior bonding capabilities (they offer a lower interest rate than the development-minded port authority does!) plus property acquisition and clean-up of environmentally troubled real estate near transit stops. In so doing, RTA could achieve their mission of improving access to jobs and services. If extending transit services to reach jobs is in their mission, then surely bringing jobs to existing transit routes should be, too.

 

Your 3rd paragraph is what Calabrese/RTA should be doing.  Sitting back and waiting for companies to come forward with TOD proposals in order to make rail transit extensions, like the Red Line's Euclid proposal, viable, is a recipe for failure.

Your 3rd paragraph is what Calabrese/RTA should be doing.  Sitting back and waiting for companies to come forward with TOD proposals in order to make rail transit extensions, like the Red Line's Euclid proposal, viable, is a recipe for failure.

 

This is what they are doing (it's a job description for a position that has since been filled)...

 

Real Estate Manager

Job Description

The Greater Cleveland Regional Transit Authority (RTA) located in Cleveland, Ohio, is searching for a detail oriented Property Manager to join its Engineering team. RTA currently has 6 properties that the team is actively marketing through our broker, 19 tenants and the team currently process 3-5 permits for use of the property. The Property Manager will assist in obtaining permits for shelters from both public and private entities - at least 1 a month. RTA does not have any large scale projects that will require any acquisitions of property.

 

However NOACA is undertaking a TOD planning process this year and will seek to invite one or two pilot TOD projects at locations to be determined.

 

KJP, are RTA and Calabrese even aware of other transit projects happening around the country and can they see the benefits of these projects?

 

Absolutely. They're well aware. But sometimes I think they feel like they're merely overseeing a once great city and transit system in hospice care.

 

But in RTA's defense, if there were developers waiting in the wings for redeveloping existing station areas, let alone the Noble/E152nd area, as well as Euclid Square Mall, projects like the Red Line extension would be easier sell.

 

Then again, I think Calabrese could organize and lead a transit-oriented development task force to undertake station-area and corridor-specific redevelopment master-planning. RTA could pledge its superior bonding capabilities (they offer a lower interest rate than the development-minded port authority does!) plus property acquisition and clean-up of environmentally troubled real estate near transit stops. In so doing, RTA could achieve their mission of improving access to jobs and services. If extending transit services to reach jobs is in their mission, then surely bringing jobs to existing transit routes should be, too.

 

I feel like the key to expanding TOD in Cleveland is to start from the popular areas and work our way out.  How are we going to renovate Euclid Square mall when the HUB of the system at Tower City is lacking retail and amenities?      Let's start there, followed by 25th/Lorain, W65th and West Blvd.  Get people interested, and maybe then they will put pressure on Joe, ODOT and our other leadership to make sure the existing rails keep running, and hopefully expand in the future. 

Euclid Square Mall can be anything. Think outside of what was. The past can be a ball and chain sometimes. This is your community. You choose its future.

Your 3rd paragraph is what Calabrese/RTA should be doing.  Sitting back and waiting for companies to come forward with TOD proposals in order to make rail transit extensions, like the Red Line's Euclid proposal, viable, is a recipe for failure.

 

This is what they are doing (it's a job description for a position that has since been filled)...

 

Real Estate Manager

Job Description

The Greater Cleveland Regional Transit Authority (RTA) located in Cleveland, Ohio, is searching for a detail oriented Property Manager to join its Engineering team. RTA currently has 6 properties that the team is actively marketing through our broker, 19 tenants and the team currently process 3-5 permits for use of the property. The Property Manager will assist in obtaining permits for shelters from both public and private entities - at least 1 a month. RTA does not have any large scale projects that will require any acquisitions of property.

 

However NOACA is undertaking a TOD planning process this year and will seek to invite one or two pilot TOD projects at locations to be determined.

 

OK, your post above indicated Calabrese could do these things, not that RTA is actually doing them... If they are, great; more power to them. ... but let's start seeing some results, i.e., at least getting some stakeholder buy-in/support for the Red Line proposal.

 

KJP, are RTA and Calabrese even aware of other transit projects happening around the country and can they see the benefits of these projects?

 

Absolutely. They're well aware. But sometimes I think they feel like they're merely overseeing a once great city and transit system in hospice care.

 

But in RTA's defense, if there were developers waiting in the wings for redeveloping existing station areas, let alone the Noble/E152nd area, as well as Euclid Square Mall, projects like the Red Line extension would be easier sell.

 

Then again, I think Calabrese could organize and lead a transit-oriented development task force to undertake station-area and corridor-specific redevelopment master-planning. RTA could pledge its superior bonding capabilities (they offer a lower interest rate than the development-minded port authority does!) plus property acquisition and clean-up of environmentally troubled real estate near transit stops. In so doing, RTA could achieve their mission of improving access to jobs and services. If extending transit services to reach jobs is in their mission, then surely bringing jobs to existing transit routes should be, too.

 

I feel like the key to expanding TOD in Cleveland is to start from the popular areas and work our way out.  How are we going to renovate Euclid Square mall when the HUB of the system at Tower City is lacking retail and amenities?      Let's start there, followed by 25th/Lorain, W65th and West Blvd.  Get people interested, and maybe then they will put pressure on Joe, ODOT and our other leadership to make sure the existing rails keep running, and hopefully expand in the future. 

 

You make a valid point.  The thing with Cleveland's quirky growth, esp in terms of TOD, is that it's historically unpredictable.  I would prefer a more systematic planning approach that you suggest, but that's not how things happen here, and because of this, I think the best way to mentally wrap our heads around growth here is to take it when and where it occurs, and run with it.  For example, even though relocating the Red Line's Euclid-E. 120 station just .3 miles south to Mayfield-Little Italy had been talked about for 3 decades or more, the sudden relocation, Uptown and now, probably, Intesa/Centric (and probably others) just dropped out of the sky (really, it's traceable to Chris Ronayne grabbing control of UCI and turning that unwieldy, politically-dysfunctional beast into a productive entity of change and growth).

 

Ditto with FEB-- the old FEB along with owner, old-man (Bert) Wolstein, died in the early 2000s.  Then in 2005, son Scott proposed the new FEB but it too became (by some) pretty much left for dead after the 2008 crash coupled with the big Old River Road property fight.  But FEB was revived (with dogged work and an intricate financing package) and suddenly, the new FEB (now headed into Phase III) materialized as one of the hot TOD's in the area...

 

... All of this has been with, as you note, a Tower City/CBD TOD that still sucks retail-wise (but I don't agree that TC is "lacking in amenities" as you say, because it has tons as well as the immediate area surrounding TC); but promises to get better with the nearby planned developments like Weston, nuCLEus, 515 and others.  Point being, Cleveland's shown that steady, piecemeal, systematic planning usually only results in one thing ... dusty blueprints... We don't know what could develop along the Red Line corridor or at Euclid Square.  It's looking like light industrial or even office or medical development (along with some retail and mulit-unit housing), might be the better option, esp at Euclid Square.  There's no law that says Euclid Square has to be reborn as a retail development especially since retail has largely failed there anyway. 

 

OK, your post above indicated Calabrese could do these things, not that RTA is actually doing them... If they are, great; more power to them. ... but let's start seeing some results, i.e., at least getting some stakeholder buy-in/support for the Red Line proposal.

 

It's the extent of what they are doing, which isn't causing change. It's just hospice care-type stuff.

Euclid Square Mall can be anything. Think outside of what was. The past can be a ball and chain sometimes. This is your community. You choose its future.

 

I'm not opposed to Euclid Square becoming something new.    But I'd also like to see a vibrant retail scene at Tower City once more.  And I'd love to see a strip mall at W25/Ohio City plowed under and replaced with a mixed-use development.  Ditto with all the vacant land surrounding current stops on our rail system.  If we do that first, it will suddenly make expanding the system more feasible.

Instead of reporting on the East Side rail outage, the PD instead has a story by reporter Mark Naymik advocating that Waterfront Line service to be "the first to go" in terms of service cuts for our financially starved RTA transit systems.  In that piece, Naymik talks about the Flats East Bank development that has sprouted, and still is sprouting, next to a Waterfront Line station... More development at North Coast harbor will also be accessible to the WFL station there.  Why hasn't someone suggested that these 2 developments, particularly FEB, invest in the WFL simily to out the Clinic and UH invested in the Health Line (bus), and CSU has invested in the #55 BRT Lite (bus)?  The WFL is a rail rapid transit line which should be the premire transit service (sadly, it's not viewed as such locally), and it DIRECTLY serves FEB... In return, Fairmount/Wolstein could promote the WFL in its literature as a preferred method to accessing their red-hot property (all that abundant, cheap parking nearby, surely won't be around much longer anyway).  And even Naymik admits, in his convulted way, that Millenals themselves desire to use public transit more than past generations... If this subgroup is so interested in transit, esp rail transit, query: why does it catch so much hell here in Cleveland, including from naysayers like Naymik?

 

And please, let's not get into how people may flock to the WFL if it were free. The service is fast enough, quality enough and direct (to the FEB) enough so that people should be willing to fork over a few dollars for it... Even though RTA probably wouldn't want rebrand the WFL ast the FEB Line, it sure as heck could note that the WFL goes "Via the FEB."

I was informed by our council person, Brian Kazy, that RTA is selling some of its land at the Triskett Rapid Station and a day care center is planning on moving in there.  People who ride the rapid could drop off their children their and ride to work.  It would also be a plus for young families who might want to relocate to the neighborhood. Does anyone know of any other land on rapid stations that is being developed? 

 

 

 

Don't agree that the Tower City retail is that dismal. It has some stores that are useful for some. May not be to everyone's taste. Foot Locker has all styles of shoes.  Tower City Cinemas is very popular.  Some new food places have gone in recently. There are banks, coffee shops, a movies theater, clothing stores, a dollar store, shoes store and a post office. 

Regarding the day care at Triskett station, see more here:

http://www.riderta.com/news/feb-10-2016-rta-forum-discuss-day-care-option-near-triskett-station

 

RTA has also made land at West 65th along Lorain available for sale, but I don't know if it still is. I never see it advertised on sites like Loopnet or Cresco, and I check those sites roughly monthly. Come to think of it, I never see RTA properties listed on those sites.

I was informed by our council person, Brian Kazy, that RTA is selling some of its land at the Triskett Rapid Station and a day care center is planning on moving in there.  People who ride the rapid could drop off their children their and ride to work.  It would also be a plus for young families who might want to relocate to the neighborhood. Does anyone know of any other land on rapid stations that is being developed? 

 

Also agree that Calabrese and his merry men could do a lot more. The PD article about the waterfront line was pathetic. Give it a chance.

 

Don't agree that the Tower City retail is that dismal. It has some stores that are useful for some. May not be to everyone's taste. Foot Locker has all styles of shoes.  Tower City Cinemas is very popular.  Some new food places have gone in recently. There are banks, coffee shops, a movies theater, clothing stores, a dollar store, shoes store and a post office. 

 

You're right, there are many signs of life in Tower City, retal-wise.  I will say that some of the retail there, however, is of low quality, like that God-awful dollar store which needs to be gone yesterday...

 

I defintely agree with you that the Waterfront Line should be given a chance.  RTA just extended it's hours back to 12 Midnight last fall and now they want to cut it back to 7p when adjacent Flats East Bank and the Lakefront developments are still not even completed and just rising from the ground, respectively?  Makes no sense.

You're right, there are many signs of life in Tower City, retal-wise.  I will say that some of the retail there, however, is of low quality, like that God-awful dollar store which needs to be gone yesterday...

 

That Dollar Store is one of the best, most useful stores in Tower City. It has EVERYTHING. If you live downtown and you visit Tower City, you're going to be visiting the Dollar Store. Guaranteed.

 

Meanwhile, here's a redirected conversation.....

 

Given RTA's fiscal constraints, I don't think RTA would consider infill stations like East 14th/22nd unless there was a developer willing to invest in the surrounding area -- if not provide significant funding directly to the station project itself. I do think a Waterfront line extension is justified without development in the East 14th/22nd/Orange area, however. It would do much better if the Justice Center/jail was built at East 14th/Prospect (see my illustration in the Justice Center relocation thread).

 

The problem with the Waterfront Line is it was built on the wrong side of the Shoreway and because not enough diverse, dense, transit-supportive uses were built within a 500/1,000-foot walk of stations. Too many walks require taking the long way around things in an inhospitable environment half of the year. There's lots of pretty, windswept plazas though, roadways with fast moving traffic and port facilities. That doesn't produce ridership most days of the year.

 

I get your point, it would be much more convenient to riders if the WFL was north of the Shoreway -- that damn roadway is such a barrier to so many things.  However, when there are major events north of the Shoreway, ie the Air Show, the Tall Ships festival and special concerts/events at Rock Hall, there have been crowds of people who use the WFL ... But it's like everything else in Cleveland planning, we never will know unless we build it.  People have deemed the WFL a failure because we have stubbornly refused to build TOD to accommodate it -- Hunter Morrison, one of the esteemed city planners nationally, noted this about the WFL.  I'm hoping the built-out FEB will generate some semblance of steady traffic, as did the old Flats party clubs on weekends.

 

And, if the Waterfront Line was built north of the Shoreway, it would be of greater utility to the planned/underway lakefront developments north of Browns stadium and whatever Geis has in mind next to Burke. Unfortunately, it's unlikely the WFL will be moved. So the option is to provide better pedestrian linkages over the Shoreway to the WFL stations (like the new ped bridge having a mid-span access point to the multimodal station/west end of the WFL station platform. Another ridership contributor would be to develop at other locations, like inside the WFL elevated track on Dock 20 north of Flats East Bank, or on the Muny Parking lot (which is being considered by the city) and at Davenport Bluffs with pedestrian accessways over the tracks at South Harbor.

 

Then there's this....

 

BTW, I tweeted that map and cc'd Fred Geis among others. Geis liked it and retweeted it with a quote "Let's go." I responded with my own comment:

"Waterfront Line/Loop may have 2b built/operated w/ non @GCRTA $$. Construction cost: $150M 15 yrs ago."

BTW, I tweeted that map and cc'd Fred Geis among others. Geis liked it and retweeted it with a quote "Let's go." I responded with my own comment:

"Waterfront Line/Loop may have 2b built/operated w/ non @GCRTA $$. Construction cost: $150M 15 yrs ago."

 

What type of construction did the $150M refer to? 

^That dollar store may have a lot of things (not the thing I was looking for that day, unfortunately), but it's just too junky looking; it immediately turned me off.  I think TC could and should do better...

 

As for the WFL, I'm surprised that nobody has moved on that Dock 20 land.  The WFL was elevated and bowed out (with a platform area) with an eventual station in mind for that location... There was once a proposal to build a dense townhouse development there a decade or so ago, but just disappeared.  Davenport Bluffs would have been a great development, but in true Cleveland fashion it not only failed but this valuable land became the home of Channel 3 and that ugly FBI facility -- 2 of the most people unfriendly uses you could find for what should have been prime hillside-waterfront residential development.  C'est la vie...

 

As for the WFL loop itself, I've long believed it would be much more useful if, at Prospect Av., the line turned northwest for a half block, then west along Huron, dropping into a subway utilizing the still existing connection to the Red, Blue, and Green Lines at TC.  I just think running surface routes south/crosstown over to empty/out-of-the way St. Vincent's Quad with Tri-C and the Post office get's you nothing.  The most popular transit route in Cleveland is, and likely will always be, out the Euclid corridor from Public Sq. to E. 9th to PHS and CSU; the Prospect-Huron routing I'm suggesting accomplishes ... The jam-packed HL buses along this route is strong supporting evidence. 

 

Btw, I'd go the extra mile and extend the Huron subway west under the crowded 5-points intersection then rising along Prospect ... at Euclid, there could be junction/turnout eastbound along the HL BRT ROW, and utilizing several existing HL stations all the way out to Stokes/Windermere. 

^That dollar store may have a lot of things (not the thing I was looking for that day, unfortunately), but it's just too junky looking; it immediately turned me off.  I think TC could and should do better...

 

As for the WFL, I'm surprised that nobody has moved on that Dock 20 land.  The WFL was elevated and bowed out (with a platform area) with an eventual station in mind for that location... There was once a proposal to build a dense townhouse development there a decade or so ago, but just disappeared.  Davenport Bluffs would have been a great development, but in true Cleveland fashion it not only failed but this valuable land became the home of Channel 3 and that ugly FBI facility -- 2 of the most people unfriendly uses you could find for what should have been prime hillside-waterfront residential development.  C'est la vie...

 

As for the WFL loop itself, I've long believed it would be much more useful if, at Prospect Av., the line turned northwest for a half block, then west along Huron, dropping into a subway utilizing the still existing connection to the Red, Blue, and Green Lines at TC.  I just think running surface routes south/crosstown over to empty/out-of-the way St. Vincent's Quad with Tri-C and the Post office get's you nothing.  The most popular transit route in Cleveland is, and likely will always be, out the Euclid corridor from Public Sq. to E. 9th to PHS and CSU; the Prospect-Huron routing I'm suggesting accomplishes ... The jam-packed HL buses along this route is strong supporting evidence. 

 

Btw, I'd go the extra mile and extend the Huron subway west under the crowded 5-points intersection then rising along Prospect ... at Euclid, there could be junction/turnout eastbound along the HL BRT ROW, and utilizing several existing HL stations all the way out to Stokes/Windermere.

 

I've said it before, TC went from Gucci to Hootchie and has yet to see any real benefit from the Casino.  The WFL subway on Huron etc. is a pipe dream...but you can always dream.

 

The HealthLine BRT is what Cleveland got from its 1980s Dual Hub Corridor subway plans.  Not even light-rail.

^Something's got to give with the HL, someday.  The last time I was on it (Tues evening was packed to the gills -- and I traveled after rush hour).  One time on a trip out to CSU, they practically couldn't get another body on the thing. That's great for transit, but HL is seriously having issues moving all those people.  Plus Heinen's is drawing even more passengers.  I see folks with those blue Heinen's bags getting off the bus and on the Blue and Green Lines heading to Shaker.  I predict that someday the HL will indeed be converted to a rail line, I just doubt I'll be around to see it.

Extend the Waterfront Line as a downtown loop and reroute the Blue Line from Shaker Square to University Circle and the rail gap between the two seems more manageable. 

Extend the Waterfront Line as a downtown loop and reroute the Blue Line from Shaker Square to University Circle and the rail gap between the two seems more manageable.

 

That's true. If there were an easier way to get to the Red Line, as it currently runs, from the eastern side of downtown/CSU's campus, it would make rail travel between downtown & UC much more viable.

 

I do hope that we'll see a rail line along the Euclid corridor similar to the Dual Hub plan one day though

Regarding Waterfront Line pipedreams, any thoughts about instead of a downtown loop, extending it eastward towards at least 55th and possibly the 72nd street area, where the Lakeshore Power Plant awaits demolition as part of a 57-acre parcel of land overlooking Lake Erie?

^Nowhere near enough ridership, I reckon.

Regarding Waterfront Line pipedreams, any thoughts about instead of a downtown loop, extending it eastward towards at least 55th and possibly the 72nd street area, where the Lakeshore Power Plant awaits demolition as part of a 57-acre parcel of land overlooking Lake Erie?

 

I really like the concept of a lakeshore extension of the WFL.  It makes sense; the WFL terminates at the base of the lakeshore and extending it along the railroad or Shoreway corridor would seem comparatively easy.  Unfortunately, without a comprehensive plan to develop the Lakeshore, the WFL is going to be stuck with the problems it's had in its present state, which is slowly changing, development-wise.  Right now the Lakeshore close to a potential WFL extension is a combination of empty parkland, with crumbling, often abandoned industrial properties hugging NS' freight rail line.  An lakeshore WFL extension just wouldn't draw enough passengers at present...

 

At least the proposed Red Line extension does pass through some populated, and active industrial, areas.  It would provide an extensive park 'n ride opportunity at it's terminal and it would feed the existing Red Line which does directly serve growing, congested University Circle, especially around UH and CWRU with their high numbers of employees and students.