@KJP - I’m curious, roughly how much would it cost to build a starter segment of a Detroit Superior subway, specifically from Tower City along Prospect to West Superior and across the lower deck of the bridge to the existing station at West 25th? My suggestion would be to make this as an extension of the Green Line (for this initial phase).  In addition to the “existing” subway station under Detroit and West 25th, I’d also put a station under the eastern edge of the bridge, just a bit down the hill from West 9th. The West Superior section of track (between Prospect and West 9th) could be either at grade or (preferably) underground. And it should be built in such a way that would allow future extensions to be built along Superior to the east (the Prospect track should be able to connect to track in both directions on Superior), Detroit to the west, and a spur to the south along West 25th.  (It’s basically what you’ve previously proposed for a Detroit Ave streetcar minus the Detroit Ave part. ?)

 

This would be tremendously beneficial to all the new and coming residents in Hingetown. And it would dramatically increase accessibility to the new Irishtown Bend park. And less than two blocks of existing street (albeit a very busy two blocks) would require construction to accomplish this spur. I’m also thinking that the current plan to replace the Blue and Green line trains in 5-7 years gives some flexibility into how the tracks and stations would be designed, because replacement vehicle selection could factor this in.

 

It would also provide an easier connection to the old B&O terminal if the CVSRailroad is extended to downtown. 

 

Maybe a relatively small project like this (as compared to the other rail proposals we’ve tossed around), that would still have a string impact, is a way to kickstart additional transit projects. I also think it’s extremely important to evaluate this now, before the Superior Viaduct project, the park project, Moreno’s TC start-up incubator, and the (fingers-crossed) Sherwin Williams projects get moving. 

 

What do you think?

 

I'll come up with a rough cost estimate. 

11 hours ago, KJP said:

I'll come up with a rough cost estimate. 

 

One more thought - for this first phase, the track on the bridge could be single-tracked. That would save a good chunk of money.  As long as the right of way for a second track is properly preserved and the two stations were built for double track, it wouldn’t prevent future expansion. 

These sorts of proposals always make me curious how many Ohio City residents who live in market rate units ever take a bus downtown.  Do people know that the transit service between Market Square and Public Square is already excellent?  During most of the day, average headways are probably 6 or 7 minutes, with none longer than 10 minutes.  And unlike the train, those buses will take you several different parts of downtown. 

3 hours ago, StapHanger said:

These sorts of proposals always make me curious how many Ohio City residents who live in market rate units ever take a bus downtown.  Do people know that the transit service between Market Square and Public Square is already excellent?  During most of the day, average headways are probably 6 or 7 minutes, with none longer than 10 minutes.  And unlike the train, those buses will take you several different parts of downtown. 

 

That's why tracks in the ground and wires above them usually tend to demystify the route of a rail-based transit service. And the combination of rails and wires also sends a pretty universal message that you won't have to wait long for the next transit vehicle to arrive (unless you're east of Shaker Square, off peak).

18 hours ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

@KJP - I’m curious, roughly how much would it cost to build a starter segment of a Detroit Superior subway, specifically from Tower City along Prospect to West Superior and across the lower deck of the bridge to the existing station at West 25th? My suggestion would be to make this as an extension of the Green Line (for this initial phase).  In addition to the “existing” subway station under Detroit and West 25th, I’d also put a station under the eastern edge of the bridge, just a bit down the hill from West 9th. The West Superior section of track (between Prospect and West 9th) could be either at grade or (preferably) underground. And it should be built in such a way that would allow future extensions to be built along Superior to the east (the Prospect track should be able to connect to track in both directions on Superior), Detroit to the west, and a spur to the south along West 25th.  (It’s basically what you’ve previously proposed for a Detroit Ave streetcar minus the Detroit Ave part. ?)

 

This would be tremendously beneficial to all the new and coming residents in Hingetown. And it would dramatically increase accessibility to the new Irishtown Bend park. And less than two blocks of existing street (albeit a very busy two blocks) would require construction to accomplish this spur. I’m also thinking that the current plan to replace the Blue and Green line trains in 5-7 years gives some flexibility into how the tracks and stations would be designed, because replacement vehicle selection could factor this in.

 

It would also provide an easier connection to the old B&O terminal if the CVSRailroad is extended to downtown. 

 

Maybe a relatively small project like this (as compared to the other rail proposals we’ve tossed around), that would still have a string impact, is a way to kickstart additional transit projects. I also think it’s extremely important to evaluate this now, before the Superior Viaduct project, the park project, Moreno’s TC start-up incubator, and the (fingers-crossed) Sherwin Williams projects get moving. 

 

What do you think?

 

 

 

I've done some work on this idea in the recent past. I've dug up some old images I'd created, working under the assumption that one of the Shaker lines would be routed through the old Shaker station at Tower City, use the unused trackbeds to the west portal of the station, and then make an S-curve over to the underside of the Detroit-Superior bridge. It would require minimal track, signal and station changes inside Tower City, as the temporary station facilities (that will be used again soon) for the track rehab projects could be used for the Detroit Avenue streetcar.

 

Re-engineer east of of Detroit-Superior bridge -- $10 million

Regrading of land/retaining walls -- $3 million

East end of bridge station -- $15 million

West end of bridge station -- $15 million

Restore ramp up to Detroit Ave -- $12 million

Construction 2.5 miles of double-track, overhead electric catenary, surface stations and electrical substations -- $50 million

Contingencies (30%) -- $32 million

--------------------------------------------------

TOTAL -- $137 million

 

This would get you to Lake Avenue. Extending another 0.9 of a mile to the West Boulevard Red Line station could cost another $25 million or so.

 

36 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

I've done some work on this idea in the recent past. I've dug up some old images I'd created, working under the assumption that one of the Shaker lines would be routed through the old Shaker station at Tower City, use the unused trackbeds to the west portal of the station, and then make an S-curve over to the underside of the Detroit-Superior bridge. It would require minimal track, signal and station changes inside Tower City, as the temporary station facilities (that will be used again soon) for the track rehab projects could be used for the Detroit Avenue streetcar.

 

Re-engineer east of of Detroit-Superior bridge -- $10 million

Regrading of land/retaining walls -- $3 million

East end of bridge station -- $15 million

West end of bridge station -- $15 million

Restore ramp up to Detroit Ave -- $12 million

Construction 2.5 miles of double-track, overhead electric catenary, surface stations and electrical substations -- $50 million

Contingencies (30%) -- $32 million

--------------------------------------------------

TOTAL -- $137 million

 

This would get you to Lake Avenue. Extending another 0.9 of a mile to the West Boulevard Red Line station could cost another $25 million or so.

 

 

That's awesome, thanks!

 

It looks like you are estimating $20M / mile for double-track, surface stations, and power infrastructure.  Are those costs the same for either the lower level of the bridge or embedding in the street?  How much do the street level stations cost?

 

I would certainly present it the same way you've drawn it up - all the way along Detroit to the West Blvd Red Line station.  But it's interesting to think about it in 3 phases instead of 2.  Phase 1 to West 25th might be in the $70-$80M range.  And it could be up and running while phase 2 (Detroit ramp and then street level to Lake Ave.) is being constructed.

 

A few months ago you estimated that the cost of the downtown Waterfront Loop (East 17th to Prospect to Tri-C and connecting at E34th station) would cost $210M in today's dollars.

 

My question for the forum - which would you prioritize and why:

- Detroit Ave streetcar to West Blvd Red Line Station as described above for $162M

- Waterfront Loop for $210M (original proposed route options shown below - I would think East 22nd would be the best path over the innerbelt)

 

And since Calabrese is gone maybe there's actually a chance of a rail project happening.  (Yes, I realize ANY rail project would be dependent on dramatically better funding.)

 

 

 

7 hours ago, StapHanger said:

These sorts of proposals always make me curious how many Ohio City residents who live in market rate units ever take a bus downtown.  Do people know that the transit service between Market Square and Public Square is already excellent?  During most of the day, average headways are probably 6 or 7 minutes, with none longer than 10 minutes.  And unlike the train, those buses will take you several different parts of downtown. 

 

This is a great point.  It would be nice to improve the perception of buses to the point where most people would take them.  Until that happens, it is well established that rail lines drive more ridership than bus lines.

 

Furthermore, if the Detroit Streetcar was an extension of the Green Line (and all the necessary service improvements on the Green Line were made) one could get from Shaker Square to Detroit / West 25th station in about 18 minutes.  (Based on time estimates from the original Waterfront Loop proposal in 2000, which is posted on All Aboard Ohio's web page, and extrapolating these estimates across the bridge.)  What's the best case scenario time-wise for a bus connecting those points?

 

http://allaboardohio.org/transportation-planning-library/localregional-transit-planning-documents/

 

Travel times from that report. 

 

One drawback of making the Detroit Avenue streetcar an extension of one of the Shaker lines is that it would have only one downtown station. So here's another possibility -- build the Detroit Avenue streetcar as a semi-independent line that runs through downtown on Superior or in the bus lanes of Euclid. That will increase the cost of the service because it would probably require ordering more rail vehicles but it could use the existing rail maintenance/servicing facilities at East 55th by providing a transfer track near West Boulevard or a connection to the Waterfront II/downtown loop.

3 minutes ago, KJP said:

One drawback of making the Detroit Avenue streetcar an extension of one of the Shaker lines is that it would have only one downtown station. So here's another possibility -- build the Detroit Avenue streetcar as a semi-independent line that runs through downtown on Superior or in the bus lanes of Euclid. That will increase the cost of the service because it would probably require ordering more rail vehicles but it could use the existing rail maintenance/servicing facilities at East 55th by providing a transfer track near West Boulevard or a connection to the Waterfront II/downtown loop.

 

I was thinking that a future phase could be what you are outlining here - a line along Superior with a station at W3rd connected underground to TC, and then stations on the east side of Public Square, at East 9th, and at E17th (with the ability for rail cars to turn onto the East 17th Waterfront extension, and therefore access to East 55th service facility).  And then a later phase along Superior with stations at E24th,  E30th, and maybe even all the way to E38th to connect with future Commuter Rail at the railroad tracks.

 

And Superior is wide enough to have the streetcar get its own lanes - no sharing with other traffic.

 

Since we're dreaming, let's also add the Huron subway, going under East 9th, surfacing along Prospect, and connecting to the established Waterfront Loop at East 17th.  This means the Green Line gets stations at Gateway, East 9th, Playhouse Sq, STJ Transit Center / CSU, St. Vincent hospital, and Tri-C. 

 

We could probably get all that done for about $750M right?  That would still be less than what we've spent on downtown stadiums in the last 30 years.

On 8/2/2019 at 4:57 PM, Boomerang_Brian said:

 

I was thinking that a future phase could be what you are outlining here - a line along Superior with a station at W3rd connected underground to TC, and then stations on the east side of Public Square, at East 9th, and at E17th (with the ability for rail cars to turn onto the East 17th Waterfront extension, and therefore access to East 55th service facility).  And then a later phase along Superior with stations at E24th,  E30th, and maybe even all the way to E38th to connect with future Commuter Rail at the railroad tracks.

 

And Superior is wide enough to have the streetcar get its own lanes - no sharing with other traffic.

 

Since we're dreaming, let's also add the Huron subway, going under East 9th, surfacing along Prospect, and connecting to the established Waterfront Loop at East 17th.  This means the Green Line gets stations at Gateway, East 9th, Playhouse Sq, STJ Transit Center / CSU, St. Vincent hospital, and Tri-C. 

 

We could probably get all that done for about $750M right?  That would still be less than what we've spent on downtown stadiums in the last 30 years.

 

I like your concept but I question whether light rail trains can make the ascent from Tower City onto the Veterans Memorial (Detroit-Superior) Bridge.  Same question for curving the Waterfront line back through downtown.

At the Tower City station's west portal, the track level is at roughly the same elevation as the floor of the subway deck of the Detroit-Superior bridge, give or take a few feet.

10 hours ago, KJP said:

At the Tower City station's west portal, the track level is at roughly the same elevation as the floor of the subway deck of the Detroit-Superior bridge, give or take a few feet.

 

Reopening the lower deck / subway of the Veterans Memorial Bridge with a Tower City connection makes a lot of sense.  Pending an engineering / track alignment study of course.  It isn't a perfect concept since, yes, some trains would miss out on serving the Waterfront Line, but since it is woefully underused, sad to say, but it's not like a lot of patrons will miss it.  Besides, trains running to W 25th / Detroit and accessing the Flats West Bank, opens some new opportunities.  And sets the stage for future expansion.

 

I never considered a modern streetcar crossing the Bridge, though.  Since we have so many problems with maintaining and operating diverse fleets of equipment, perhaps adding yet another system would be impractical.

 

I took the subway tour during the Cuyahoga50 festivities, and they had rendering of cycling and pedestrian paths using the lower deck.  As a sort of inverted High Line, I guess.  With the upper deck on its "road diet" making room with cyclists and pedestrians up there, is the lower deck plan effectively canceled?

Edited August 14, 20195 yr by PaxtonMarley

15 hours ago, PaxtonMarley said:

 

 

I never considered a modern streetcar crossing the Bridge, though.  Since we have so many problems with maintaining and operating diverse fleets of equipment, perhaps adding yet another system would be impractical.

 

 

Light rail trains can operate as streetcars. Technically, the Shaker lines are streetcars that operate in a reserved right of way from Shaker Square eastward. Perhaps the new LRVs will be low-floor vehicles. If they are, they will be even more suitable for streetcar operations.

This blog and the study it is reporting on provides a unique way to provide a streetcar that doesn't have to rely on timed lights and speeds transit without incurring the larger costs of digging a subway -- what if we did this for the Healthline, with plans to convert it to a streetcar in say 10-20 years. 

 

https://www.treehugger.com/public-transportation/low-clearance-rapid-transit-cheaper-subways-faster-trolleys.html

 

I think that would be awesome!

^Sounds like a good plan to me. Streetcar from Tower city to the zoo. While they are at it they can update the streetscape and bury the electric lines. 

2 hours ago, Terdolph said:

Putting aside the Metro Health project, it looks like there is about a half billion $ investment in this short corridor.  Doesn't that cry out for a street car transit upgrade rather than a mere bus line upgrade? Can't these people get together and form a tiff or something to get RTA to run a street car out of TC, over the DS bridge lower deck, left on W25 to Brooklyn and back?  All the infrastructure is there (maybe tracks still hurried under W25?). It shouldn't be too expensive to do.  Maybe Villia Hispania could actually do something useful in this regard?

 

2 hours ago, audidave said:

^Sounds like a good plan to me. Streetcar from Tower city to the zoo. While they are at it they can update the streetscape and bury the electric lines. 

 

I love this and 10000% agree!!  I think a subway line under W25 would be amazing, I would plan it all the way to the CLE boarder at Brookpark Rd, then see if Parma would put up the money to extend it to ParmaTown.  The South Side of downtown is totally underserved by the RTA Rapid lines, more than the East or West sides by far, I think its long overdue.  I also think burying the power lines while we're at it would be a HUGE plus!

Pulling this over from an Ohio City development thread. 

 

2 hours ago, Terdolph said:

Putting aside the Metro Health project, it looks like there is about a half billion $ investment in this short corridor.  Doesn't that cry out for a street car transit upgrade rather than a mere bus line upgrade? Can't these people get together and form a tiff or something to get RTA to run a street car out of TC, over the DS bridge lower deck, left on W25 to Brooklyn and back?  All the infrastructure is there (maybe tracks still hurried under W25?). It shouldn't be too expensive to do.  Maybe Villia Hispania could actually do something useful in this regard?

 

Yes, of course it does cry out for streetcar instead of improved buses. And as much as I would love this, @KJP has already detailed his attempts to do pretty much exactly what you are suggesting, except along Detroit. And RTA is who killed those efforts. Maybe now that Calabrese is gone it’s worth trying again, but I certainly wouldn’t bank on support from RTA. And with their state-of-good repair backlog and need to replace the existing subway cars, that lack of support is understandable. 

 

If you want to change that, focus on improving the funding model. There is no new replacement transit leader that could be brought in that would magically fix the causes of RTA’s challenges AND then build the rail system that most of us here would like to see. Vote for and otherwise support state and federal representatives that actually support public transportation. 

 

“It shouldn’t be too expensive to do”. Umm, wut?  Your suggested project would cost $250-$400 million to get to MetroHealth, and much more to get to Brooklyn.  I personally agree that it would be worth it, but that’s absolutely an expensive project. There is partial infrastructure in that the bridge is there and the W25/Detroit subway station is there, but even that part would require significant money to finish off to make usable by streetcar.  And there is NOTHING in the way of streetcar infrastructure for the entire W25th stretch. 

 

I want to emphasize that I would LOVE to see this project happen. The thing that bugs me about your post is your statement that it would be not expensive and implying it should be easy.  It would be both hard and expensive and require fundamental shifts at both the state and federal level to make happen. So let’s focus our efforts and criticisms where the real changes need to happen. 

^For the record, I pulled this discussion to this thread before the development thread got locked.  ?

Edited December 31, 20195 yr by Boomerang_Brian

As stated in "Transportation," it would also be beneficial if ODOT increased funding for more urban transit versus support of ever increasing highway construction. As things stand, it would appear that RTAs options are to increase fares and/or to cut service.

GCRTA is just trying to maintain their daily operations. As you mentioned, railcar/bus replacement is also badly needed. With such urgent immediate needs, I may be wrong and it would certainly be nice, but I just don't see them even beginning to consider a streetcar down W. 25th.

What's so sad is that at one time, the city was full of streetcars, then trackless trollies (CTS), on the avenues and major cross streets. They were all ripped out to make room for cars.

Edited January 1, 20205 yr by Frmr CLEder
Faulty auto correct

^A project like this should start with NOACA. They do the traffic analysis studies. They figure out how to get big projects paid for. They decide how important an improvement this might be within a ranking model for the region as a whole to determine whether money should be put towards the top ranked models.  I don’t know that this has been studied as an option.  I think this is absolutely worthy of being studied. 

Although I would love if we re-utilized the subway deck of the DS bridge and had streetcars running down Detroit and 25th St., I think that the 25th St corridor, as far as transit is concerned, needs improved travel times/frequencies for the existing bus lines more than an expensive streetcar line at this time. To do this I think that W. 25th should have dedicated bus lanes all the way to the Cleveland/Parma border (or at the very least to the zoo). North of Bridge 25th is more than wide enough to accommodate and the parking lanes between Bridge and Lorain would be better utilized as bus lanes. In this section of 25th buses have to weave in and out of traffic which impedes everyone; plus with people circling and trying to park on 25th now they often block the travel lanes and impeded the flow of traffic, so changing the parking lanes to bus lanes would really help travel times for everyone. And south of Lorain the curb lanes could easily transition to dedicated bus lanes; with the current construction on 25th by 90 this stretch is down to a lane in each direction and, outside of rush hour, it is clear that multiple lanes are not needed for car traffic.

 

And having dedicated bus lanes would vastly improve travel time/frequencies/ridership for our existing bus lines in that corridor; a dedicated ROW can more than double bus speeds and haven been shown to increase ridership by 2-9% (source). A recent example of this would be 14th St. in NYC, and dedicated ROW for buses are a major component to Seattle's increased bus ridership (source). Think that the creation of these bus/transit lanes could also be done relatively inexpensively. And to even further improve the transit corridor we could also work towards decreasing dwell time (which can account to about a third of travel time) by instituting P.O.P./all door boarding, signal prioritization, and low level boarding (which I believe most if not all of RTA's buses serving this corridor already meet). But given RTA's current issues with P.O.P. and the city's unwillingness to utilize signal prioritization on the Healthline I doubt those improvements would be made.

How do people feel about China's new "ART"? https://shanghai.ist/2019/12/09/chinas-driverless-trackless-train-that-runs-on-virtual-rails-launches-first-commercial-line/

It seems like it could be the next evolution for BRT with a lot of potential as a more affordable streetcar alternative.

I have made updates to my Cleveland rail transit dream map.  I'd welcome your thoughts.  And I want to emphasize that this is a dream scenario, and I know we have to focus on building ToD at existing rapid stations first, and current funding models would never support such projects.  This is purely about what I'd like to see if transit were properly funded.  Anyway, here's a link to the updated map:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1vHvgpk4iMQsCPFCiAGs9W5wW06jQYaIq&usp=sharing

 

The updates from the previous version:

- Waterfront Line extension (dark blue line on map): I moved it from East 17th to East 12th.  This would make it much more accessible to many more current jobs in the CBD.  People in offices along East 9th would walk to East 12th. Not nearly as many would walk to East 17th, or the existing East 9th Waterfront Line Station.  Furthermore, East 12th already has that big median, so it would give the tracks a dedicated RoW.

- Waterfront Line extension: I used Euclid instead of Prospect. I would propose no-through-car-traffic for that section of Euclid.

- I'm glad the Superior Midway bike lanes are happening, but that probably eliminates the potential for a Superior Ave Streetcar.  So I moved the streetcar over to St.Clair (orange line on map).  West 6th would be the connector to both the Detroit Superior Bridge subway deck and back into the Terminal Tower rapid station.  It would be nice to get this section going along with construction of Sherwin Williams HQ.  Between the Waterfront Extension, the St Clair Streetcar, and a future Huron subway/Dual Hub streetcar, virtually the entire CBD is within 1/4 mile of a rail station.

- Waterfront Line and St. Clair would use new streetcars that are also compatible with Blue/Green line stations.

- Infill station on Red Line at the north end of the viaduct (basically above the Canal / Carter intersection).  Create a pedestrian connector to enable connections to the Detroit-Superior Bridge east station, Settlers' Landing station on the Waterfront Line, and the old B&O Station, which would become the new downtown terminal of the Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad.

- Realigned the Lake County line of the commuter railroad to pass through University Circle with a station at the UC-Cedar rapid station, and possibly also Windermere.  Also a station at Euclid East 55th.  This makes the line useful for commuting to UC and Cleveland Clinic, in addition to jobs downtown.

- Rerouted the Blue Line from Shaker Square to UC via Larchmere, Cedar Fairmount, UC-Cedar Rapid station (transfer to Red Line), Adelbert Rd (to maximize UH, CWRU, and Uptown usage), and along Euclid to about East 90th to serve Cleveland Clinic.  (Ideally this would eventually become the Dual Hub, extending all the way to downtown.)

- I also added a Payne Ave. Streetcar as a distant future addition. I would envision it making a downtown loop.

 

Big hat tip to @KJP for most of these concepts.

 

Downtown rail concepts:

 

Shaker Square to University Circle and Cleveland Clinic - route options

 

Lake County Commuter Rail via University Circle:

 

Phase 1:

- Waterfront Line Extension

- St. Clair streetcar first phase (terminating at Tower City)

- Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad to downtown - old B&O station

- Infill station on Red Line near B&O station

 

Phase 2:

NEO Commuter Rail

- Lorain, Downtown CLE (Convention Center Land Bridge / current Amtrak location), Warrensville Heights (480), to Solon

- Elyria, Hopkins Airport, Downtown CLE, UC, Lake County

 

Phase 3:

- Detroit Streetcar (extension of St. Clair Streetcar) to West Blvd Rapid Station (transfer to Red Line and Commuter Rail)

- Blue Line re-route to UC/CC

 

Phase 4:

NEO Commuter Rail: Canton, CAK airport, Akron, Cuyahoga Falls, Hudson, Northfield Park, Bedford, Euclid Ave. at E 55th, Downtown CLE, Hopkins Airport

 

Later: Lots of other concepts.

^I encourage anyone who is interested to open the link - it’s really cool how you can work on top of Google maps. It allows you to turn off and on different layers. I set it up as read only, but you can copy it to your own Google account and then make changes to your version. The tool is fairly intuitive. 

I made a new version of my Cleveland rail transit proposal Google Map featuring only the "more realistic" proposals.  Link: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1jwJYTqDuRjTaOhrx5g9gMR63xEMr783u&usp=sharing

 

Some updates:

- Building the Huron Subway would make it practical to have CBD "Loops" on the Green Line, Detroit Streetcar, and St. Clair Streetcar.  The downtown loop would tremendously increases the ridership of each line.

- With this in mind, I think the Detroit Streetcar and St. Clair Streetcar should be separate, not one continuous route.  It just seems much more likely that a rider of either line would be traveling to a CBD station on the loop, than to a station on the other line beyond that loop. St. Clair Streetcar travels the loop clockwise, Detroit Streetcar travels the loop counterclockwise.

- With multiple light rail and streetcars following the Huron Subway, I think it should be constructed underground to the east of East 9th.  I realize this is wildly expensive, but there would be two lines each direction on this stretch, meaning there could be a train every 2.5 minutes during rush hour service.  Or perhaps it could surface in the Gateway area, but go back underground to go under the East 9th / Prospect / Huron intersection.  Let's prepare for downtown's success!

- Euclid Ave. from East 13th / Huron to East 22nd would ideally be no-through-auto-traffic. At a minimum, strict enforcement of not blocking the tracks is required.

- The more I think about it, I think the Blue Line reroute concept should be MLK to Stokes to Red Line (transfer at Cedar-University) to Adelbert to Euclid Ave (west).  The Larchmere - Coventry - Fairmount to Cedar Hill routing is fun to consider, but I suspect it would generate significant push-back.  (I'm thinking about the current conversations around the Shaker Sq redo and Top-of-the-Hill in Cleveland Heights.)  And realistically there's more opportunity for redevelopment along MLK, plus this route would certainly be much less expensive.  There's just so much potential - think about how much more valuable Shaker Square becomes if there is direct rail connection to the hospitals and CWRU.  Think of how much Blue Line ridership would increase. And the Blue Line operating expenses go WAY down.  Hat tip to @KJP for this awesome concept!

- The Solon commuter rail line only goes to Harper Rd (Nestle/Stouffer's Plant); beyond that, the tracks have not been maintained, tracks have been removed at roads, and I suspect there would be much more political push-back.

 

 

And here it is in simplified route map form:

 

 

Phase 1:

1. Waterfront Line Extension to form a downtown loop (East 12th, Euclid Ave, East 22nd)
    
2. St. Clair Streetcar, terminating at Tower City (Note: Streetcar is compatible with Blue/Green Light Rail infrastructure)
    
3. Red Line Viaduct Infill Station (above intersection of Carter and Canal) - Connects to CVSR downtown extension at the B&O station

Phase 2: Two Commuter Rail Lines

1. Lorain, Westlake, Rocky River, West Blvd (transfer), Downtown CLE, Warrensville Heights, Solon
    
2. Elyria, Hopkins Airport, West Blvd (transfer), Downtown CLE, University Circle, Euclid, Lake County

Phase 3

1. Blue Line Reroute to University Circle via MLK, Stokes, Cedar-University Station, Adelbert Rd, and Euclid Ave. (downtown commuters transfer at Shaker Square)
    
2. Add counterclockwise loop on Waterfront Line Extension
    
3. Fulton Rd - Red Line Infill Station

And finally Phase 4:

1. Huron Subway to enable convenient downtown loop for Green Line and Streetcar lines. Gateway and E.9/Prospect Stations
2. Detroit Ave. Streetcar - West Blvd to Tower City to CBD Loop (Huron Subway, Waterfront Ext., St. Clair Streetcar)
3. Commuter Rail to Akron, Canton (via Hudson, Cuyahoga Falls, & CAK Airport)

Clearly I've spent far too much time thinking about all of this.  I find these ideas interesting and I know a few of you do too.  I'd be very much interested in your comments and concepts.  I also fully acknowledge that none of this is happening with current transportation funding and if any of us had the money to do it we should be pushing for Transit-Oriented-Design at the existing Rapid stations.  All that said, I will continue to dream of a future where transit is properly funded and proposals like these become realistic.

 

Love the idea of commuter to Lorain. Think the rest of commuter train ideas are pointless as ROWs are too tricky.  Also think it could be more efficient for Lorain commuter to finish at West Blvd especially if there is a streetcar option down Detroit in addition to the red line options.  There is no point except for football games for most people to be dropped off at the lake. Commuter implies daily. 
   I think the waterfront loop looks great with the interplay of playhouse theaters and CSU. 
  I have a feeling some kind of connection with the CVSR will happen before any of these other ideas.  They are buying more train cars and engines as well as renovating their rolling stock. They are getting a new stop in the valley in Akron. I think they want to make that push towards downtown Cleveland very soon. 
  Only thought on East side is i’m surprised you didn’t push for extending green line towards 271.  I would think that would be a popular option for people on 271 to get off and hop on the rapid. 
  

9 hours ago, audidave said:

Love the idea of commuter to Lorain. Think the rest of commuter train ideas are pointless as ROWs are too tricky.  Also think it could be more efficient for Lorain commuter to finish at West Blvd especially if there is a streetcar option down Detroit in addition to the red line options.  There is no point except for football games for most people to be dropped off at the lake. Commuter implies daily. 
...
  I have a feeling some kind of connection with the CVSR will happen before any of these other ideas.  They are buying more train cars and engines as well as renovating their rolling stock. They are getting a new stop in the valley in Akron. I think they want to make that push towards downtown Cleveland very soon. 
...

 

It's interesting to consider - the self-propelled rail cars (DMU) that would probably be used for Commuter Rail or the 3C+D rail could ride on the Red Line Tracks from West Blvd to Terminal Tower; however, full Amtrak trains could NOT.  Forest City destroyed the old train RoW west of Terminal Tower when the Federal Courthouse was built.  @KJP has estimated that it would take over $100M to restore that RoW for full length passenger train service.  I am pushing hard for @KJP 's vision for the Multi-Modal Transit Center in the proposed Landbridge from the Convention Center / Mall to the Great Lakes Science Center over the railroad tracks and Shoreway.  (Link: http://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2019/06/cleveland-can-energize-its-lakefront-in.html )  In order to get critical mass at the Transit Center, I like the idea of Commuter Rail also passing through that station.  Furthermore, downtown streetcar loops that stop at the Transit Center would make that location much more useful.  One challenge is that the lakefront line is heavily used for freight traffic, so @KJP 's Norfolk Southern downtown bypass proposal would probably need to be implemented.  (Note that this plan is more about connecting Cleveland to the lake; simplifying passenger rail is a side benefit.  That report is in the blog post linked above.)  All that said, I agree the Terminal Tower would work too and I definitely would NOT terminate the west side service at West Blvd - just have it come all the way downtown, using the Red Line tracks.  (I do agree with putting a station at West for transfers to Red Line, Detroit Streetcar, and local bus service.)  I also agree that the CVSR will be extended to downtown - it is the most likely to happen of any of these proposals.

 

The Commuter Rail proposal is detailed on the Google Map I created https://drive.google.com/open?id=1jwJYTqDuRjTaOhrx5g9gMR63xEMr783u&usp=sharing .  Screen shots below.

 

ALL of these commuter rail routes are on existing rail right-of-way.  ALL of them north of Hudson are actively used by freight trains.  South of Hudson is a bit more challenging, but still all existing RoW.  (The portion between Hudson and Cuyahoga Falls has no track, and from Cuyahoga Falls south the track probably needs upgrades in most places.)  In addition to passing sidings, the only other track upgrades required would be a connection near the Red Line E.79 station to connect the rail line to UC / Lake County to the rail line that goes to the Lakefront.  This would be worth the cost as routing through UC roughly doubles the number of commuters that would be likely to use to service.  The vast majority of the cost on the first two proposed lines (Lorain - Cleveland - Solon; Elyria - Hopkins - Cleveland - UC - Lake County) are the trainsets and the stations.  I also think that doing Commuter Rail as an early phase is important to build up the user base and therefore political clout.  We really need a functioning system before we start pushing the more expensive projects.

 

 

 

 

9 hours ago, audidave said:

Only thought on East side is i’m surprised you didn’t push for extending green line towards 271.  I would think that would be a popular option for people on 271 to get off and hop on the rapid. 

 

I'd love to see the Blue Line extended down Northfield Rd to 480 or across Harvard Rd through Highland Hills to the Chagrin Highlands and 271.  I'd love to see the Green Line extended to and up Richland Rd to Beachwood Place and then over to Landerhaven and on to Hillcrest Hospital.  But those projects would require WAY more political effort and would face substantial push-back - there are simply too many Americans that have no idea what good transit looks like and what it can do for them.  They only see the expense of rail, while ignoring the staggering costs of roads and cars.  So we have to build the good example first.  Furthermore, the downtown loop, the Blue Line reroute to University Circle, and the commuter rail would all make additional lines more valuable.  Other great examples would include a W 25th streetcar from the CBD Loop, over the Detroit Superior Bridge, through Ohio City, through Metro, past the zoo, and through Brooklyn Center (aka @GISguy 's line); from the Waterfront Line to Scranton peninsula into Tremont, through the Steelyard, and connecting back to the W25th line; and a line up Cedar Hill, along the Euclid Heights Blvd median to Coventry and on to Severance Center;  Payne Ave;  and Broadway through Slavic Village, on through Garfield Heights and Maple Heights.  (I do have all of these in my more expansive Google Map linked on the previous page of entries.)  Many, many good projects that would build a wonderful network.

 

All that said, let's start with something that is somewhat more feasible.  If those first projects aren't done right, none of the other projects would happen anyway.

What I’m saying is get some kind of commuter going with DMUs along the lakeshore routes.  They don’t need to go to the downtown lakefront until there is more volume and the lakefront “hub” is ready. The DMUs can stop at a red line station that way there is more frequency. 
  You can’t do it all at once.  If those are the first trains coming in, there is barely anything to connect to lakefront downtown at the moment. So those will likely be very empty until many more options are available. 
There isn’t enough density in Summit county to make a commuter rail line worthwhile. A stop in Macedonia on a train going to Pittsburgh or going to Cleveland, sure. Faux commuter train of the CVSR is likely good enough.  If people in Solon or Summit Co need to be near downtown Cleveland they can move closer. 
   Next steps come down to leadership in the various communities and transportation organizations.  
   
   

25 minutes ago, audidave said:

What I’m saying is get some kind of commuter going with DMUs along the lakeshore routes.  They don’t need to go to the downtown lakefront until there is more volume and the lakefront “hub” is ready. The DMUs can stop at a red line station that way there is more frequency. 
  You can’t do it all at once.  If those are the first trains coming in, there is barely anything to connect to lakefront downtown at the moment. So those will likely be very empty until many more options are available. 
There isn’t enough density in Summit county to make a commuter rail line worthwhile. A stop in Macedonia on a train going to Pittsburgh or going to Cleveland, sure. Faux commuter train of the CVSR is likely good enough.  If people in Solon or Summit Co need to be near downtown Cleveland they can move closer. 
   Next steps come down to leadership in the various communities and transportation organizations.  
   
   

“You can’t do it all at once.”

Um, I laid out the phases immediately above. The waterfront extension is a CBD loop for all of the reasons you mentioned; that’s why I think it should be first. And I also think the land bridge transit center is critical - without that, I would agree there is no reason for commuter rail to go to the lakefront station. With it, that location is convenient to City Hall, the northern part of East 9th, Key Tower, and the Justice Center, plus the lakefront attractions. 
 

I disagree about the density of Summit County - downtown Hudson and downtown Cuyahoga Falls are ideal Commuter Rail locations, and the tracks are convenient to where (relative) density already exists. Obviously downtown Akron is a good location, especially with the university right there. (And let’s remember that the CVSR station is not as convenient to downtown Akron. Plus the CVSR is SLOW.) The second Akron station is close to Goodyear HQ - in fact, the tracks go right by HQ, so the station could be there. Certainly south of there the benefits and ridership drop, perhaps Akron - CAK - Canton should be viewed as a later phase of that line. 

 

And for me, the purpose of the Solon Line is at least as much to carry Cleveland residents to the many jobs in Solon as the other way around. The Lorain - Cleveland - Solon Line was the the route with the best ridership to cost ratio when these commuter rail lines were all studied about 15 years ago, and there are more jobs in Solon now than there were then. 

Edited March 28, 20205 yr by Boomerang_Brian
Add land bridge comments

5 hours ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

 

ALL of these commuter rail routes are on existing rail right-of-way.  ALL of them north of Hudson are actively used by freight trains.  South of Hudson is a bit more challenging, but still all existing RoW.  (The portion between Hudson and Cuyahoga Falls has no track, and from Cuyahoga Falls south the track probably needs upgrades in most places.)  

 

 

Other way around. There is track from Hudson to Cuyahoga Falls but its grown-over or, at crossings, paved over. South of Cuyahoga Falls, the former CAC line is ripped out but the ROW is still there (ditto for the former Erie RR from Akron Jct into downtown Akron). So it's possible to have a passenger-only track all the way from Hudson into downtown Akron. Also, a third main track from Hudson north to Cleveland may be needed. But NS traffic is down so much and may not recover due to pushing away so many borderline-profitable customers that don't fit into its "Precision Scheduled Railroading." So there is now extra capacity on the mainlines.

A few questions for @KJP or anyone else who might know:

- How far does the existing, abandoned subway tunnel stub under the Ontario / Huron intersection go along Huron?  I realize that all of Ontario in that area is basically a bridge over used and/or abandoned rail tracks, but I'm curious how much of Huron has the subway tunnel.  I'm assuming it's pretty short.

- If a Waterfront Extension/Loop proposal were to come together, could the money that RTA, Cleveland, the county, and Ohio put into the original Waterfront Line be used towards the "local contribution" in the calculation of federal funding for the Loop project, considering that Cleveland did NOT use federal funding for the original Waterfront Line?  I realize the proposal is entirely a fantasy, but it is interesting to me to consider the possibilities.  Any type of downtown loop that better covers the CBD and also links Playhouse Square, CSU, St. Vincent Hospital, and Tri-C would RADICALLY improve the usefulness of our existing rail system and would dramatically increase ridership.  Would this type of project be likely to qualify for federal funding?

 

 

 

Not exactly certain about the never used subway connector tunnel(s), but I think they end at Ontario.  When the Terminal Tower project was under construction, the excavation basically stopped at Ontario.  Depending on what was done for Ontario, there may be little bit underneath, but I don't think that Ontario itself was disturbed for that project's construction.  In the 1920's subway-type construction was cut-excavate-cover, not the boring operations done today.

As for the west side of the Terminal Tower Complex, at one time there was the intent to connect the Detroit-Superior High Level Bridge trolley subway to the Terminal Tower tracks. The lack of money during the Great Depression ended all potential planning on that type of connection.

1 hour ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

A few questions for @KJP or anyone else who might know:

- How far does the existing, abandoned subway tunnel stub under the Ontario / Huron intersection go along Huron?  I realize that all of Ontario in that area is basically a bridge over used and/or abandoned rail tracks, but I'm curious how much of Huron has the subway tunnel.  I'm assuming it's pretty short.

- If a Waterfront Extension/Loop proposal were to come together, could the money that RTA, Cleveland, the county, and Ohio put into the original Waterfront Line be used towards the "local contribution" in the calculation of federal funding for the Loop project, considering that Cleveland did NOT use federal funding for the original Waterfront Line?  I realize the proposal is entirely a fantasy, but it is interesting to me to consider the possibilities.  Any type of downtown loop that better covers the CBD and also links Playhouse Square, CSU, St. Vincent Hospital, and Tri-C would RADICALLY improve the usefulness of our existing rail system and would dramatically increase ridership.  Would this type of project be likely to qualify for federal funding?

 

 

The tunnel goes only as far as to where the tunnel stops curving, basically about to the middle of Ontario. So if a tunnel is extended under Huron, it will need to be only a straight tunnel.

 

Local funding would have to be secured. When the planning for the downtown proceeded in the late 1990s to about 2000, I don't recall an assumption that the locally funded Waterfront Line could be used as the local match for its extension. Now, had RTA approached the FTA with a downtown rail loop plan from the start and offered its $70 million in local and state funds as the share for it, we would probably have been riding a downtown rail loop for the past decade.

12 hours ago, Larry1962 said:

So I assume that the

Flats Industrial Railroad will sell their right of ways property on the Scranton Peninsula to either the Thunderbird Project Partership OR to NRP to allow them to build a larger apartment project and or a large mix use project?

 

Especially IF they can buy at least part of the rest of the Scranton Peninsula that is owned by the 100+ year old Trust.

 

I suspect that many do not realize how long the FLats Industrial Railroad right of way is. So I've shown it in the maps below as the yellow line. Interestingly, NOACA has recently proposed a rail transit line to the southwest on the CSX corridor (which is for sale) past the Parma GM plant, into Brook Park, Middleburg Heights, Strongsville and Medina. RTA in the 1990s proposed a rail transit line branching off from the Red Line near Fulton Road, extending southwest along the rail freight corridor (including the Flats Industrial RR), to then turn south on Ridge Road to Parmatown. That leaves the portion of the Flats Industrial RR north of Fulton Road in limbo. To me, this would be a good connector trail between the Red Line Greenway and the Towpath Trail on Scranton Peninsula.

 

EDIT: new and improved maps (with labels, proposed rails and trails)

 

 

Edited May 14, 20205 yr by KJP

@KJP I recall a while back your discussions about CSX wanting to dump some ROW west of the city- how benevolent are they when selling off pieces like this? Is it something that is attractive to another shortline rr or is it a 'sell for whatever we can get for it' situation? 

Just now, GISguy said:

@KJP I recall a while back your discussions about CSX wanting to dump some ROW west of the city- how benevolent are they when selling off pieces like this? Is it something that is attractive to another shortline rr or is it a 'sell for whatever we can get for it' situation? 

 

CSX is willing to sell much of its lesser-used ROW. It's not going to give it away. They are going to want market price which is at least $1 million per mile.

Just now, KJP said:

 

CSX is willing to sell much of its lesser-used ROW. It's not going to give it away. They are going to want market price which is at least $1 million per mile.

Thx. Cheaper than clearing and buying land but I can't imagine in the near-future RTA could handle something like that. Probably a duh statement but here's to hoping that someday the statehouse and feds see value in transit. Is it bizarre (or even possible) to try and do a lease w/intent to buy situation? Is this something that's been done in other transit markets that you know of?

I've never heard of a railroad doing a lease to buy situation. They either lease their rights of way or sell them.

Why doesn’t RTA at least try to propose a levy like Laketran successfully did to try to raise revenue?

3 hours ago, GISguy said:

Thx. Cheaper than clearing and buying land but I can't imagine in the near-future RTA could handle something like that. Probably a duh statement but here's to hoping that someday the statehouse and feds see value in transit. Is it bizarre (or even possible) to try and do a lease w/intent to buy situation? Is this something that's been done in other transit markets that you know of?

 

Never heard of a lease-to-buy situation when it comes to railroads. Users of rail corridors either lease them or buy them.

 

1 hour ago, JB said:

Why doesn’t RTA at least try to propose a levy like Laketran successfully did to try to raise revenue?

 

Because they either don't think it's necessary and/or don't think it will pass. They would rather cut services/raise fares to make ends meet. They see Greater Cleveland as a dying community to which they're just along for the ride in however things end up. They don't see transit as an economic development instigator.

“They don't see transit as an economic development instigator”.

 That mentality has to change. I would think with one of the most successful BRT lines in the country, RTA would look at expanding heavy rail, light rail or BRT services. 

43 minutes ago, Watertiger1962 said:

“They don't see transit as an economic development instigator”.

 That mentality has to change. I would think with one of the most successful BRT lines in the country, RTA would look at expanding heavy rail, light rail or BRT services. 

 

And raising money to buy land near stations for development.